Hold, Hall & Weyr Symbols

[Apocalypse]

Hello All!

It's been rather a long time, I know....

I have a question for those of you with more up-to-date knowledge on such things... I'm after the Hall, Hold & Weyr shields for all the places which have appeared in the books - and I'm sure there are new ones since the Dragon Lover's Guide was published.... any ideas please?

I've got a wee idea bubbling in my (also wee) brain and this is the place to start!

[D. M. Domini]

I see this has been unanswered for a while...

There was never another edition of The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern after the 2nd edition. So there's not actually anything "official" after that. Anything that could be produced would strictly be fan-made.

Now, if you're looking for fan-made ones, I'm sure we could provide a few. But for new canon ones...nope.

[Kath]

What about that lovely map of Pern made by (My memory fails me now... but someone must know)? It had the symbols round the borders, right?

Am I misremembering that there's a picture of it on Hans' site somewhere?

[Lily]

That'll be Kat's map. There's a small pic of it when she showed it to Anne in post 3, under thematic photography, pictures of Anne.

And I had a page of Hold/Hall shields but it seems to have disappeared. I shall look more closely

[Kat]

Yes that's me. It's always been part of my archivial interest. I think part of it stems from the love of heraldry and another is it's a niche that really hasn't been touched on much by fans.

As posted in the thematic photo thread with that pic. I've recently updated/renovated the map. Personally if I do say so myself to the better.(thanks for the "lovely" Kath)

In reading any of her books I've always written any place names down and any geographical info.

I have made badges for all the holds mentioned up to Dragon's Time.(108)

I have those pages scanned but I'm not satisfied with the way the colours transfered using my Canon printer.(they're darker than what they really are) I've wanted my husband to try his Kodak and see if it makes a difference. I guess this Thread and him being on vacation will give me a push.

Check back a little later and I'll hopefully get them sorted.

[Golden Talisath]

I had a picture of all the symbols, but for the love of little green dragons, I can't find them. They probably dissapeared when my computer sistem dropped down a couple of months ago.

[Apocalypse]

Thanks everyone! I'll wait for Kat's update

[Lily]

I think I printed those symbols out. I wonder if I could find them?
But whether its canon I would not know.

[Lily]

I found it!

Now I have to work on getting you a copy, Apo!


BRB

[Apocalypse]

Originally Posted by Lily

I found it!

Now I have to work on getting you a copy, Apo!


BRB

Champion! Thanks

[Lily]

Well we progress! It's on my FB page.
Go look at Lesley Rowe's page!!!
If anyone can copy if off from there do let me know and yr welcm

[Lily]

Yay! Now it's on photobucket too!!!

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...cs%20I%20Like/

What it is to have a geeky family!!!!

[Almaron]

Ah, I remember that pic!

Hmm...it needs a bit of updating, I think. It's missing the symbols given in the DLG2. I can post the descriptions, though.

Computerer's Hall: On a white field, a bright red computer chip.
Technician's Hall: On a white field, a bright red cog.
Printer's Hall: On a white field, a rich blue Printing and Binding press.
Papercraft Hall: On a white field, forest green Print Rollers.
Plastic-Craft Hall: On a white field, three bright red Roundels.
Dolphineer's Hall: On a white field, a sea-blue dolphin.

High Palisades Hold: On a red field, three (thin) steel-gray Bends sinister.
Island River Hold: On a light green field, per pale a blue wavy Fret.
Central Hold: On a light green field, a white lozenge.
Big Lagoon Hold: On a sea-blue field, an open roundel of light green, centred in sea-blue.
Great Bay Hold: Per pale bright red and sea-blue, with a half-circle of sea-blue centred and adjacent to the sea-blue.
Paradise River Hold: Chequy of bright red and dark brown, per fess a steel-gray Wave.
Paradise River Sea-Hold: On a sea-blue field, a sea gray Wave, and a steel-gray half-circle beneath.
South Bend Hold: A field divided per fess by a wavy Fret, golden yellow, white, and peridot green.
Rubicon River Hold (Kahrain Hold from Dolphins Of Pern): On a white field, per bend a dark blue wavy Fret.

Monaco Bay (Eastern) Weyr: On a midnight blue field, three silver Roundels.
Honshu Weyrhold: On a bright red field, a white Roundel and Radial Lines outlined in black.

There used to be a site with renditions of these, as well as several non-canon ones made up by fans, but I think it's gone offline. I'll have a look...

Edit: Yep, the site's dead. It was SouCon Holds or something. The Internet WayBack Machine hasn't saved the pics, so it's useless.

Another Edit: It seems a spinoff site has saved some of the pics; they can be seen here:http://gwenwaverider.webs.com/pernbadges.htm
They're not that great, unfortunately (plus I think they've drawn too many squares on the Paradise River shield), and there's a few fan-made ones there.

Hmm...this whole thing has caught my interest. Maybe I'll try making some pixel shields to complete the set!

[Apocalypse]

Thanks Lily!

Almaron - I'll be interested to see what you come up with

[Almaron]

How's this then?


http://amcalmaron.deviantart.com/art...elds-272270662

T'is a mixture of tracings from the DLG and a few drawings of my own when the image was simple enough (which was not very often). Don't think I got the Halls quite right (see the link for my notes).

Kat, is there any chance you could show us bigger versions of the shields on your map? I could "pixelate" them so that there's a resource file with every Pern shield!

EDIT: Moved the Fishercrafthall to Tillek.

[Kat]

I'm working on it. Taking a bit longer than I anticipated. I wanted to make sure they lived up to the discerning people here.
Hopefully your patience will be satisfied.

[Apocalypse]

They look terrific! Do you mind if I use them for my own fan-art?

[Almaron]

Sure, I don't have a problem with you using them! Just add a link back to the DeviantArt page.

[GinnyStar]

Not unless I'm miss reading one, the Masterfisher is in Tillek Hold Not High Reaches Hold, just something I've spotted which could add to the confusion

Over All I can read most of it.

[Almaron]

You're right! How on earth did I make that mistake? I'll update the pic now.

[GinnyStar]

Originally Posted by Almaron

You're right! How on earth did I make that mistake? I'll update the pic now.

Glad I could help out, sometime I know my abilty to do feedback can be hard to understand at times.

[Oldrider]

Hello All,

To paraphrase Apocalypse, "I know it's been a veeery long time..."

Anyway, nice to exist again

I need help!

Please see lrmason.wordpress.com for details.

I need map location information (clues, hints, suggestions, suppositions, etc) for all of the following:
High Hill Hold (on the border of Fort / Ruatha)
Retallek Hold (Fort)
Riverside Hold (Ruatha)
Bald Lake (Ruatha)
Pierie Hold (S Boll)
Fire Hold (H Reaches)
Murfy Hold (H Reaches)
Red Cliff Hold (Keroon)
Bent Ridge Hold (Nerat east coast)
Berea Hold (Nerat east coast)
Grethel Hold (Nerat east coast)
Mardela Hold (probably at Nerat tip)
Saluda Hold (Nerat east coast)
Hilltop Hold (Telgar)
Brum Hold (Could be a Moreta Ride hold?)
Lado Hold (no references?)
Great Reach Hold (?)
Vesta River Hold (ROP?)

Also, was Thella's Hold ever named and any clues as to where it might be? I've tried using travelling distances, but the terrain isn't consistent enough.

Thanking you in advance and in anticipation

Luff 'n' stuff,
Oldrider

[semantre]

Oldrider, you'll want to take a look at Almaron's map here. The discussion thread for this map, if you have questions/comments/etc, is here.

[mara]

hey oldrider. Dragonsblood has a map where Firehold is situated a little north from High Reaches Weyr.

[Almaron]

(Ack! Sorry to post this in the wrong place, but I figure it's best to reply to the original post...)

I think I need to update my map, actually. There's a few errors that I made - the fictional "Three Rivers Hold"; which was me misunderstanding a note from Kath about various locations to add.

Many of these holds are only briefly mentioned, so where they are located is totally speculative. From memory...

Retallek Hold (Fort)
Riverside Hold (Ruatha)
Bent Ridge Hold (Nerat east coast)
Berea Hold (Nerat east coast)
Grethel Hold (Nerat east coast)
Saluda Hold (Nerat east coast)
Hilltop Hold (Telgar)
Great Reach Hold (?)
Vesta River Hold (ROP?)

I don't think there's any more information about these holds other than what you've listed (there's also Waneta Hold, which is located up the river).

High Hill Hold (on the border of Fort / Ruatha)

Well, this can only be at the odd little peninsula of land near Fort Sea Hold.

Bald Lake (Ruatha)

Is this an alternate name for the Great Lake near Ruatha Hold?

Pierie Hold (S Boll)

I seem to recall this one was on the West Coast of Boll, so perhaps somewhere between Peyton and Southern Boll Hold (but near the sea)?

Fire Hold (H Reaches)

This one's listed on the map in Dragonsblood; it's up near Ogren Hold (on my map, I placed it near the beginning of the northernmost river).

Murfy Hold (H Reaches)

This one's the hold at the source of the Pirot River, but I don't remember my source for that - possibly Kath?

Red Cliff Hold (Keroon)

Judging by the location, it could be the un-named Keroon holding inbetween High Ground and Curved Hill Holds.

Mardela Hold (probably at Nerat tip)

Don't recall finding much out about this hold. Sorry.

Brum Hold (Could be a Moreta Ride hold?)

It is from Moreta, but as far as I recall, it's only mentioned in the Dragondex.

Lado Hold (no references?)

Well, we know it's on Ista Island. All the holds on Ista appear to be along the east coast, so we could assume it's somewhere between Rocky and Gar.

If you do find more information, may I request you add it to the Pern Wiki? I started writing up a list for all the holds http://pern.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Holds, but so far only the holds mentioned once or twice have their pages written (I still need to finish re-reading the books and making notes, but I might not be able to do that for a while...) but at least it's vaguely useful at the moment as a point of reference - I must ask that you don't label the holding Moreta goes Between from as "Last" or "Lost" Hold; its real name is "Waterhole Hold", as confirmed in "Beyond Between"; many websites have used the other two names after misunderstanding the notes in the Atlas of Pern.

[Oldrider]

Thanks Semantre.

Thanks for Fire Hold, Mara. I missed that!

Almaron:

I've got Waneta, thanks, and the others I'll just stagger along the coast, I guess

I've copied your locations for Retallek, Bent Ridge, Grethel, Saluda and Berea.

I've stuck Hilltop Hold at the northernmost point of the Telgar River, before it enters the mountains up towards the Smithcraft Hall, because the reference "Derabal holds an impressive spread from river to mountain" could only rely apply there?

I can't remember where I dragged Great Reach from, so I'll have to research that again.

I've put Vesta River Hold on the river connecting the Keroon Heights with the Igen River, on the assumption that Jayge had to have been old enough to helped the adults there and that they would have been on the return route from Plains Hold.

I've seen your map and placed High Hill slightly higher than yours, mainly for text reasons

Bald Lake only has two passing references (Palon of Bald Lake) by Tegger. It's described as "down" (south?), but the initial point of reference isn't established. I've put it at the bottom of Great Lake.

I've put Riverside the other side of Breast Pass, just for space and text reasons.

Pierie is "cut into [snip] the cliff" and has a "long flight of steps which led down to a sandy crescent of a beach". I was tempted to use the un-named hold at the foot of the range on the eastern side, particularly as Petiron and Merelan travelled south from the Harper Hall, but had then thought to place it above Gar, but to the south of the forests? Why did you think it was on the western coast?

The Fire Hold location sounds like sensible positioning

I can't find anything for Murfy or Lado, so I'll go with your suggestions.

However, I've swapped Red Cliff and High Ground as that marries with the Atlas entry for Moreta's Ride.

Mardela (Seahold?) could be anywhere along the coast from just south of Greystones to the Tip. It could even be on the east coast, although unlikely. I've placed it about half-way along the sole.

I've stuck Brum smack bang in the center for spurious reasons: in the UK, Brummies are from the Midlands

Where did you get the info on Lado? I've a digital reference file, but it's 9th Pass only. I'll add in the other Passes when I have time.

I've placed Kimmage Hold further up the Keroon River, based upon (i) when they're leaving Kimmage to head to Plains Hold, Crenden says, "The track is downhill most of the way from here" and (ii) Jayge "glanced back at Kimmage Hold, impressive in its bluff that overlooked the energetic Keroon River" and, (iii) after being warned of Thread, "the trail turned abruptly south, skirting a granite outcropping and affording a wide view of the other shore and the low foothills that would culminate in the immense Red Butte" which might place them on the far shore of the other river towards the Igen, or they would have been travelling uphill along the Keroon. It would have made more sense if they'd been heading down the Keroon, but Plains is in the opposite direction. I need to add trees in the hills above Kimmage...

Also, I've placed Radharc to the south of Greenfields, due to Nip's comment about Fax: "Just ventures a little ways into Telgar to nobble Radharc."

I've joined the Wikia and will add info when I have time

Now I need to update the blog and add the latest map...

Thanks again

Oldrider

[Almaron]

Great! Be sure to note where you've speculated - for my map, when I took a guess about a location, I coloured the text red - in case it leads to a mix-up later on when more information is discovered about a location (unless of course you know it must be that place).

That reminds me...you might need to update the terrain (from the way it appears in the Atlas) in a few places (for example, the rivers on the Far Western Continent, as revealed in Dragon's Time). I know I had to extend the forests in Cathay further down the Rubicon River, since Xanadu Stake was described in ATWOP as being overgrown.

However, I've swapped Red Cliff and High Ground as that marries with the Atlas entry for Moreta's Ride.

Gah, you're right! I must have mixed up the labels when I did my map! Good spotting.

Pierie is "cut into [snip] the cliff" and has a "long flight of steps which led down to a sandy crescent of a beach". I was tempted to use the un-named hold at the foot of the range on the eastern side, particularly as Petiron and Merelan travelled south from the Harper Hall, but had then thought to place it above Gar, but to the south of the forests? Why did you think it was on the western coast?

I know I used to think it could be that un-named hold, but it is described twice in Masterharper of Pern as being on the west coast;

"They reached Pierie Hold halfway through the morning...Petiron was warmly received by the aunt and uncle who had reared Merelan when her own parents died in one of the fierce autumnal storms which battered the western coastline." - MHOP 32.
"Although he had spent some time with his mother's family on the west coast, this part of eastern South Boll was different..." - MHOP 349

Also, I've placed Radharc to the south of Greenfields, due to Nip's comment about Fax: "Just ventures a little ways into Telgar to nobble Radharc."

That must be a typo; Radharc should be in Tillek, not Telgar. Robinton mentions that Lord Melongel would have objected to this, and Melongel is Tillek's Lord Holder (it's not the only time in MHOP the two locations are mixed up; the List of Characters lists Lord Tarathel as Tillek's Lord Holder (along with Melongel) when he's Telgar's Lord).

I can't find anything for Murfy or Lado, so I'll go with your suggestions.

Let's see...Kat mentioned to me a while back that Murfy Hold's location had been figured out by her and Hans; they decided it was "the unnamed hold southwest of Keogh almost on the border of High Reaches and Nabol".

Where did you get the info on Lado? I've a digital reference file, but it's 9th Pass only. I'll add in the other Passes when I have time.

Lado's only mentioned in the short story "Ever The Twain" - part of the "A Gift Of Dragons" anthology - which is believed to take place during the Second Pass, and all that we know about it is that it's on Ista Island, so it's probably on the east/right coast of the island, since all the other minor holdings seem to be on that side, with only Ista Weyr on the west coast.

[Almaron]

Argh, I'm a fool. Three Rivers Hold does exist, it's just...mentioned oddly. It's the hold in Dragon's Fire that Halla gets caught at when the two Shunned women try to steal from a riverboat captain, but it's not named until Halla meets Lord Fenner. According to the scene, it's located at the "Highest part of the River Crom" - I assume this means the left tributary of the Great Dunto River, since they started there, and not the Crom River which is mentioned at another point.

For goodness sakes...who makes two different locations with almost exactly the same name...and in the same book?

[Kat]

Originally Posted by Almaron

Argh, I'm a fool. Three Rivers Hold does exist, it's just...mentioned oddly. It's the hold in Dragon's Fire that Halla gets caught at when the two Shunned women try to steal from a riverboat captain, but it's not named until Halla meets Lord Fenner. According to the scene, it's located at the "Highest part of the River Crom" - I assume this means the left tributary of the Great Dunto River, since they started there, and not the Crom River which is mentioned at another point.

For goodness sakes...who makes two different locations with almost exactly the same name...and in the same book?

Welcome to the joys of cartography in the Pernese World!

[GinnyStar]

Originally Posted by Almaron

<snip>
Lado's only mentioned in the short story "Ever The Twain" - part of the "A Gift Of Dragons" anthology - which is believed to take place during the Second Pass, and all that we know about it is that it's on Ista Island, so it's probably on the east/right coast of the island, since all the other minor holdings seem to be on that side, with only Ista Weyr on the west coast.

Its also sail by the twins father fishing boat, on the way just my two bits

[P'ter]

Almaron: to go way back to your craft symbols.

I feel that your symbol for weaver craft would be better as interlaced lines representing warp and woof. I'm very sorry but to me yours is ambiguous and says 'toilet roll makers'.

[GinnyStar]

Half Circle is behold to Benden Weyr/Hold is it not?

[Almaron]

Half-Circle's located in Nerat, but it's covered by Benden Weyr - remember the Weyr areas don't quite match the hold boundaries; for example Ista covers Igen and south Keroon, and Nerat, while Igen covers north Igen, south Telgar and Keroon. In this case, Benden covers Benden, Bitra and Lemos (although Igen covers the absolute southwest bit) and north Nerat.