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Old Aug 10 2010, 05:59 PM   #1
Finn
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Default Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

Hi!

Ok, I've just finished Dragonsdawn. This is making me nuts. I don't see how there could be Holds in the North called Bitra, Nabol, and Lemos considering their "contributions" to early Pern. I would think people would be loath to use those infamous names once they settled the North, and obviously there wouldn't be any descendants running around. Has this been discussed somewhere else? Point me at a thread (so to speak), or if it's addressed in First Fall, which I'm just starting, disregard.

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Old Aug 10 2010, 07:32 PM   #2
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

I believe the Dragonlover's Guide To Pern addresses this, let me check...

Lemos was founded as an offshoot of Benden, and contained the settlers from Ierne Island. Bart Lemos' kids believed him to be an unsung hero, thus founded and then named the hold after him.

Bitra was founded by Benden settlers who disagreed about the documentation of Avril Bitra's role and left. They saw her and the others as heros who had died attempting to save Pern while Benden and Boll stood by doing nothing.

The page on Nabol doesn't mention who founded it, but the pages for Lemos and Bitra suggest that all three were seen as unsung heroes. Judging by the border lines (showing how the country was divided over time; there's another post on that somewhere on this forum), it seems that some Fort settlers (or Tillek, if you ask me) also wished to honour the lost three, and (presumably due to Bitra and Lemos' names already being used at this point) named it after Nabol.
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Old Aug 10 2010, 08:06 PM   #3
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

Almaron covers this very well, but I would add that there could have also been a rebellious factor, beyond the idea of unsung hero, where the holds were established by people who were against the colony leaders ideas. Naming them after these individuals would be a form of protest.
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Old Aug 10 2010, 09:42 PM   #4
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

It's been a while since I've read Dragonsdawn, but did Bart Lemos actually do anything bad, or is he just a crook for associating with Bitra and Nabol? I mean, Nabol seemed to be the crook; he demanded Cibola and ignored the warnings about his ship. Lemos only died cause he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Old Aug 11 2010, 10:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

He was a both I think,a small contractor, he had secondly skills in mining, he had a small stake hold Yukon I think. He wasn't told much about the plans for something about him no be able to hold his tongue after too much to drink. Book isn't to hand, and to dark now to read print. He believed what Nabol was saying about the Big Island stake.
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Old Jul 4 2011, 05:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

It's been a while since this was discussed, but in reading through DD again I found that apparently Nabol had become popular with a small group of people before his death.

On page 336 of my copy of Dragonsdawn (Green Corgi Paperback, Steve Weston Cover) not only does it expand on Nabol's record as a villain ("Nabhi had already been reprimanded a dozen times, and served Cherry Duff's sentences for social misdemeanours, mainly 'drunk & disorderlys', several work delinquencies and one 'lewd advances'.") but then mentions that "Lately he had somewhat redeemed himself by being a good squadron leader and was much admired by the young men he led", and these squadron members even show up at the launch of the Moth to wish him good luck.
Perhaps a descendant of one of these men founded Nabol Hold in his honor?

IIRC, somebody on this message board mentioned something about Bart Lemos not having kids,

Whoops, out of time. I'll finish what I was writing later.
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Old Jul 4 2011, 06:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

There's no mention in DD of either Nabol or Lemos having any kids, but it was stated that everyone was expected to make a genetic contribution, including any homosexuals. (This appears in the section where Sallah and Tarvi discover the Fort Cavern, para 3: "And whatever his sexual preference, he was nonetheless expected to add to the next generation.")
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Old Jul 4 2011, 09:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

Well, yeah, that's pretty much what I was going to suggest - just cause we never heard of Bart Lemos starting a family doesn't mean that he didn't...mess around. He could have had several descendants in Yukon Stake (if that is indeed where he lived) who later founded Lemos Hold, as the DLG suggests.
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Old Jul 28 2015, 03:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

Excuse the obvious question: Were the notorious three the only ones with those surnames?
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Old Aug 2 2015, 01:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennet View Post
Excuse the obvious question: Were the notorious three the only ones with those surnames?
Bart Lemos: He wasn't trusted after having a few drinks, he acted very worried after the Moth was in space. continuing from my post from Aug 11 2010 09:38 PM,

Ah no Benden Weyr, and Hold were named after Paul Benden, Spoiler if you haven't read Chronicles of Pern: Second Weyr.

Southern Boll -- Emily Boll, Chronicles of Pern
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Old Aug 4 2015, 11:55 PM   #11
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennet View Post
Excuse the obvious question: Were the notorious three the only ones with those surnames?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GinnyStar View Post
Bart Lemos: He wasn't trusted after having a few drinks, he acted very worried after the Moth was in space. continuing from my post from Aug 11 2010 09:38 PM,

Ah no Benden Weyr, and Hold were named after Paul Benden, Spoiler if you haven't read Chronicles of Pern: Second Weyr.

Southern Boll -- Emily Boll, Chronicles of Pern
I might be wrong, but I think the implication of Kennet's post was that Lemnos might be named after ... say, Bart's brother Bob.

Or his kid Ben Lemnos who (spurred on by the shame of his father's legacy) might have done something super-heroic some twenty years down the track, prompting people to name a hold after him.

And so on for Bitra and Nabol.

To be honest, that would make a good amount of sense. It did seem to me like most of the settlers arrived with families rather than solo - and there was that whole 'thou shalt reproduce' thing.
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Old Aug 7 2015, 04:51 PM   #12
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

You were exactly correct regarding my implication. d(-_*)

It would be quite remarkable if a large settler population did NOT have several families with the same name.

I do not remember many family names being mentioned in Anne's books. Most of the characters are known by their given names or by a locative (Meron of Nabol). Robinton could very well be Robinton Bitra.
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Old Aug 8 2015, 02:57 PM   #13
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennet View Post
You were exactly correct regarding my implication. d(-_*)

It would be quite remarkable if a large settler population did NOT have several families with the same name.

I do not remember many family names being mentioned in Anne's books. Most of the characters are known by their given names or by a locative (Meron of Nabol). Robinton could very well be Robinton Bitra.
Robinton of Harper Hall

They do start doing this in The Chronicles of Pern: First Fall the short story of The Ford of Red Hanrahan.
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Old Aug 12 2015, 03:08 PM   #14
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

I know it became Robinton of Harper Hall, I was just wondering what it was before that. (^_^)

The colonists had surnames which were, presumably, passed on to their heirs. They do seem to have fallen into disuse, possibly because of population growth. There would be entire hamlets with everyone named Bitra.
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Old Aug 18 2015, 01:23 AM   #15
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

As Ginny said, as early as "The Ford of Red Hanrahan" (still the colonists) they begin doing away with last names. Even in Dragonseye there don't seem to be any people left who use surnames, people are just called "Given Name of Place/Craft", except dragonriders, who tend to be either "S'o and So, Dragoneth's Rider" or "S'o and so of Whichever Weyr."
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Old Aug 18 2015, 01:32 AM   #16
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

Weyrleader K'vin thinks of himself as "Kevin of the Hanrahans" in a couple of places in Dragonseye, so it seems like a few notable families were still using the name as more of a clan name than a surname. The Hanrahans were very famous, though, and K'vin was a dragonrider. Probably not many family identities stuck around that long.
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Old Aug 31 2015, 03:28 PM   #17
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Post Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pearldiver View Post
Weyrleader K'vin thinks of himself as "Kevin of the Hanrahans" in a couple of places in Dragonseye, so it seems like a few notable families were still using the name as more of a clan name than a surname. The Hanrahans were very famous, though, and K'vin was a dragonrider. Probably not many family identities stuck around that long.
Same thing with S'nan, he was many times, great grand son, his hair was more sandy then red http://www.pern.nl/bloodlines/bl_connell.htm
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Old Sep 1 2015, 07:05 PM   #18
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Default Re: Hold Names (spoiler if you havent read Dragonsdawn)

I suspect they continued using surnames while they were living in Fort Hold because there were thousands of them still using Earth given-names. Once they started dispersing across the planet, they would use "of Xxxxx Hold" so others would know where to find them. And many newborns also started being given names by joining syllables of their parents' names. They may even have made a rule about not naming a new baby after someone still living at the same hold.

If your father or uncle was prominent, you might reference that fact when introducing yourself, e.g. Audiva was the daughter of Weaver Craftmaster Timareen of Telgar Hold.

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FTR: S'nan was descended from Sean Connell, K'vin from one of Sorka's siblings.
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