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Old Sep 22 2010, 10:02 AM   #1
Moira
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2cent Thread at night ?

Hello,

First of all, please excuse me for my poor english 'cause i'm a french guy

I have just finished the last book of Todd. I know that some of you are somehow disappointed by his books (me too hin hin), and if i consider it "canon", i have a question about the thread falls at night :

How do they do in the 9th passage if it's true ? And if it's not, how could we explain that the threads are not falling during night time ?
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Old Sep 22 2010, 04:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: Thread at night ?

Anne tells us that the red star has an orbit inclined to the ecliptic. Therefore, if the red star passes between Rukbat and Pern, then the trail of thread would also be between Rukbat and Pern, so thread would only fall on the daylight side of the planet.
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Old Sep 23 2010, 10:08 AM   #3
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Default Re: Thread at night ?

It'd have to be a heck of a lot more complex than that - Thread falls all year round, remember?
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Old Sep 23 2010, 03:48 PM   #4
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Gold Re: Thread at night ?

this is precisely the point that has bothered me so much with Todd's more recent books. in all these years that his mom has written about Pern, including the one that covers the first Falls, never, at any point, does she mention night falls. so the only reason i can see for Todd suddenly start having night Falls, is to have a reason to bring in the whers. i love having the whers out and about-never liked the mental picture of them chained, wings cut, and treated as disgusting version of a junk yard guard dog.

surely there could have been some other jobs that could have been found for them, other than suddenly creating night Thread Falls, where none had existed before?

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Anne tells us that the red star has an orbit inclined to the ecliptic. Therefore, if the red star passes between Rukbat and Pern, then the trail of thread would also be between Rukbat and Pern, so thread would only fall on the daylight side of the planet.
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Old Sep 24 2010, 05:14 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Kath View Post
It'd have to be a heck of a lot more complex than that - Thread falls all year round, remember?
Or could it some about the movement of the bodies around Pern to effect them more like the 'shift' in Dragonquest?

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Yesterday 02:48 PM
LadyDeerskin
Surely there could have been some other jobs that could have been found for them, other than suddenly creating night Thread Falls, where none had existed before?
I like the idea of them helping in the mining part, doing the exploring of the underground. There is a lot of water in which some Thead could die. The cold air of the Second Pass was over Benden Weyr, and they did have goggles that had tint in them. Also have all those trees near the Snow Waste in the begin of the Third Pass Bad idea.

More later
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Old Jul 28 2015, 04:09 PM   #6
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Default Re: Thread at night ?

Kath, I don't think that Thread falls all year. F'lar describes the first falls as being of the same duration, but less intense. This would mean that the falls start and end at the same times in the year, but that there are fewer in the first Turns.
Also, the Red Star's orbital path would leave a gap in Pern's orbit where there is no Thread being left behind. This apparently coincides with the north hemisphere's winter. Otherwise, the Red Star's orbit would have to be inside Pern's.
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Old Aug 3 2015, 10:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: Thread at night ?

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Originally Posted by Kath View Post
It'd have to be a heck of a lot more complex than that - Thread falls all year round, remember?
Yes they have dud falls because of the weather,
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Threadfall beginning of the Second Pass the one over Benden Weyr, switch to a warmer front making most of 'active' Also it glowed so they could 'see' it to flame it.
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Old Aug 4 2015, 12:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: Thread at night ?

Does anybody actually read the quotes I drop off here from Todd about these things from when he answers fan letters on his website? Just curious.

Near as I can tell, it looks like they got the idea of Thread falling at night from the map in Dragonsdawn, where somebody (one of the big fans if memory serves) actually took Anne's information about Thread falls and made sense out of it, which makes it impossible for there NOT to be Thread falling at night. Both Anne and Todd liked the new chart so much that they've used it for reference ever since, and Anne retconned that Thread mostly freezes at night, so it won't do as much damage.

Here:

Quote:
Letter from Rea

I’ve just started Dragonsblood and I’m a bit confused. In the first segment in the First Pass, you write M’hall as saying that watchwhers fight Thread at night– yet Anne has stated more than once that Thread never falls at night due to the orbits of Pern and the Red Star. Also, you write that watchwhers “eat Thread, like the fire-lizards”, when in all the books the firelizards flame Thread. I remember only one mention in a 9th pass book where Kylara says her firelizard “ate” Thread, and numerous mentions of their flaming it. They taught Ruth how to chew firestone, and the original seventeen dragonriders as well. I’m sure the rest of the book is fabulous (I really enjoyed Dragon’s Kin), but these discrepancies are more than a little off-putting. What’s the deal?

Actually Mum more often says that Thread freezes at night because it’s too cold, which is exactly what M’hall noticed and what happens. If you look at the sky charts so expertly produced by Harry Alm in Dragonsdawn, you’ll note that there is nothing precluding a night fall of Thread — in fact, it has to happen. Mum knows this, she’s not only spoken with Harry on the topic repeatedly, she’s used his Threadfall charts (as do I in Dragonsblood).

As for fire-lizards, you are right that Kylara first mentioned their ability to eat Thread — it was also the first mention in Mum’s books at all of the fire-lizards’ ability to deal with Thread. What happens when the fire-lizards can’t get the firestone needed to produce flame?

As for firelizards teaching Ruth how to chew firestone, my recollection is that it was Jaxom who taught Ruth how to chew firestone and the firelizards merely provided encouragement.

Not that this matters, as it was clearly established that fire-lizards *can* eat Thread.

You are definitely going to run across one and possibly two other eyebrow-raising revelations in Dragonsblood.

One is that Wind Blossom is Kitti Ping’s daughter, not her granddaughter — this was an error in the original US edition of Dragonsdawn, corrected in the UK edition. When one of my early readers noticed it, there was a loonnngg conversation finally ended with Mum’s observation, “I would never had gone to two generations, Wind Blossom *has* to be Kitti Ping’s daughter.”

The other is mention to “the Plague.” It’s not the Sixth Pass Plagues of Moreta’s time — of which my Third Pass people know nothing. It is the latest pandemic (worldwide epidemic) to ravage Pern, and it happened within the living memory of all in the Second Interval/Third Pass to survive it (chronologically, it happened about four Turns after the end of Dragon’s Kin).

Finally, Rae, and perhaps most reassuring to you, Mum and I corresponded on Dragonsblood while I was writing it. If I did anything that I thought might not work, I ran it by her first. In fact, Mum read and approved the original outline of the book, read the first draft of the book (and made numerous, extremely helpful comments), and read the advanced readers’ copy. There isn’t anything in Dragonsblood that Mum hasn’t approved — as she makes abundantly clear in her introduction to Dragonsblood.
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Dear Todd,
First, let me say that I have just finished “Dragonheart”, and I loved it; I’ll have to find my copy of “Dragonsblood”, and reread it. I am thrilled that you are carrying on the tradition.

Second, I’m puzzled/worried by your introducing the idea of thread falling at night. I can’t remember that occurring in any other Pern book, and I’ve read them all (I started back in the 70’s). This is a really fundamental change. I’d love to hear your comments on this.

Sincerely,
Simon


Dear Simon,

First, thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed it.

Second, not everything is known all at once, else Lessa would have never gone back in time, F’nor never would have gone to the Red Star, et cetera.

As mentioned in Dragonsblood and Dragonheart, night falls result in a large amount of dead Thread which is of no consequence.

But, as mentioned in Dragonflight, the watch-whers of the time had their wings clipped. At lest, the captive watch-whers had their wings clipped. There’s no mention of wild watch-whers (and why would there be?) but there must have been a reason to clip their wings and chain the poor beasts. This reason is indirectly discussed in Dragonsblood (because the watch-whers will fly Thread at night unaided).

So there were clues back in Dragonflight but not story to tie the clues together.

Dragonsblood provided the chance to match up the clues and draw conclusions. Dragonheart starts at the same time as Dragonsblood but actually ends earlier in the Third Pass (although more actual time has elapsed).

Cheers,
Todd
Hope this helps!
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Old Aug 4 2015, 11:34 AM   #9
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Default Re: Thread at night ?

Well, I can't say that Thread all freezing at night makes any less sense than night air somehow allowing flightless creatures to fly. There's that.
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Old Aug 4 2015, 12:10 PM   #10
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Default Re: Thread at night ?

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Originally Posted by pearldiver View Post
Well, I can't say that Thread all freezing at night makes any less sense than night air somehow allowing flightless creatures to fly. There's that.

It's not the air that allows whers to fly though, Wind Blossom says in Dragonsblood when asked about the whers, that they fly like the dragons, using subconscious telekinesis to aid them. She made the wings smaller on them to help them better avoid Threadscoring. The 3rd Pass Pernese just assume it's somehow the air because they don't know what telekinesis is and because whers are nocturnal. They can't fly during the day because the light blinds them.

As for Thread freezing at night, we do know it freezes in high altitude in snowy areas, so why wouldn't the colder night air at that height have the same effect? It doesn't turn into black dust like it does in winter, it just becomes cold enough so that it can't burn/eat anything. That's why whers have infrared vision, so they can tell the warm live Thread from the harmless cold Thread.
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Old Aug 4 2015, 02:55 PM   #11
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Default Re: Thread at night ?

Because the night/day air temperature difference isn't dramatic enough to justify that, especially at the altitude Thread activates. If Thread falls on a cool spring morning as well as a hot summer day, then its band of active temperatures isn't so narrow that night will render it harmless.

Good to hear about the whers. I'm still going to look askance as the Pernese forgetting "Oh yeah, this species is our backup nighttime Thread fighting force, better keep them around so we don't get eaten once the sun goes down" when it comes to whers. Telekinesis is at least invisible.
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Old Aug 4 2015, 05:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: Thread at night ?

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Originally Posted by pearldiver View Post
Because the night/day air temperature difference isn't dramatic enough to justify that, especially at the altitude Thread activates. If Thread falls on a cool spring morning as well as a hot summer day, then its band of active temperatures isn't so narrow that night will render it harmless.
What ARE the temperature limits for Thread anyway? Given what we know? How cold does it have to be to be rendered harmless? And how cold for it to become black dust?

In Dragonharper, I think, it is mentioned that how many whers fight depends on how hot or cold the night is where the Thread falls. There's one scene where Nuella is riding on her queen wher and the two are leading the other whers against a night fall, but the night is too hot, so there's more live Thread than the whers can handle and they take heavy casualties, so she has to get the dragonriders to help and the whers have to guide them so the dragons don't flame each other by mistake.

Quote:
Good to hear about the whers. I'm still going to look askance as the Pernese forgetting "Oh yeah, this species is our backup nighttime Thread fighting force, better keep them around so we don't get eaten once the sun goes down" when it comes to whers. Telekinesis is at least invisible.
Well, to be fair, Anne seems to have had the idea for them being Thread fighters as far back as Moreta, I guess she just wasn't sure exactly how until she and Todd started co-authoring.
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