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Old Jun 25 2008, 09:16 PM   #1
D. M. Domini
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Default Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

So, it's established in Damia that Afra and Jeff places certain mental suggestions on Damia to regulate her 2-year-old behavior on Callisto. Given that Afra seemed to be the driving force on that do you think he and Damia pre-conditioned any of their lot with any telepathic suggestions? (And would Afra be the driving force because of practicality as an empath...given empaths, if you take a long shot and dart back to the Pegasus books as examples, have to be ready to perform crowd control? Or would his desire to curb behavior stem from his Methody upbringing, so that his hypnotic suggestions stem from a need for control, externally applied if internal control is not possible (such as it wouldn't be for a 2 year old)?)

The post-Damia books are entirely different sort of books than the first two in the series...first two are romances, hands down. The rest are the multi-POV sort-of-adventure-but-not-quite thing that AMC does on a lot of her books. And we never get to see what any of the Raven-Lyon 8 are like as infants, so who knows if they put Afra thorough the same trials as Damia. But do you think they ever implanted suggestions in their children to make them behave?

It could go a long way in explaining how they are all Just So Perfect. LOL. Zara being the only one to buck the trend. (Although I suspect Morag was a hellion--I imagine her most like Damia, although I have very little to base it on.)

The whole topic of Talents policing their own keeps getting touched upon in the series, from The Rowan being secretly monitored through her beloved purza, to Damia having some hypnotic behaviors implanted as a 2 year old to curb her behavior, to the mention in one of the later books of Afra and Damia were no longer monitoring their son Rojer's mind. It's an interesting topic. I, for one, would go nuts if some parental figure could not only police my actions, but my thoughts as well!
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Old Jun 26 2008, 08:28 AM   #2
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Default Re: Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

Yeah, me too. Still, that comment about trusting Rojer to deal without any further monitoring from his parents goes a long way toward explaining that indeed, Talented parents do use subtle mental control on their children. However, telepaths, by their nature, can't have the same sense of mental inviolability as we do, so it's not as traumatic to them as it would be to us. However, in the hands of an extremely controlling parent, these things could lead to some absolutely inhuman kinds of abuse. Still, the Raven-Lyons seem to have grown up into their own unique and sometimes irritating personalities even with this interference, so it can't have done any lasting harm.
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Old Jun 26 2008, 08:36 AM   #3
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Default Re: Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

This is another series (other than Pern) that I have read...I have read The Rowan, Damia, Damia's Children and Lyon's Pride....Unfortunately it was going on 5 years ago and I no longer own these books due to our move to another state....
I do remember the Rowan being monitored by her Purza ( I can't recall though if it was alive or more of a Teddy Ruxpin toy--as I said details escape me due to the passage of time)..Is Purza the giant cat or am I thinking of Damia?
The whole idea of any thought control has negative connotations(even for a 2 year old --and I have a 2 1/2 yr old grandson that I care for so I understand the temptation lol).. In light of some other threads though --if one was going to modify behavior via mental controls shouldn't they have used stricter controls on Damia considering her flirtatious pursuit of Afra when she was a young teen...
To accept the use of telepathic control in a small matter would seem to me to make it easier for an ambitious type to try to become a ruler....Is there a safegaurd in place...Talents just don't get ambitioous for self rule...

On a side note since I have not read any Pegasus or Hiver books --are the Hivers the ones that attacked Jeff's planet and where eventually his family grew up ....Do the Hivers remind anyone else of the enemy in the Ender's Game stories or am I off base?
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Old Jun 26 2008, 09:46 AM   #4
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Default Re: Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

I only have a sketchy memory of this now, but wasn't Damia rather annoyed to find out about the sleep suggestion that was set up in her as a child and that it was still active as an adult? Given that, I'd think she'd be reluctant to use such controls on her children.
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Old Jun 26 2008, 09:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

She was a bit annoyed, yes, but I doubt she'd be quite as anal about the issue as the Rowan understandably was, given that she never had a proper childhood in the first place. However, I do think that she might use some judicious ones, and in fact did. Remember the way the younger kids suddenly felt sleepy and went to bed earlier than usual before Thian got the news that he'd be allowed to go on his mission as a Naval Prime (Lyon's Pride)? That suggests telepathic influence.

Purza was a toy, but much more than that in the Rowan's imagination. Jeff borrowed Bagheera from the Jungle Book by Kipling.
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Old Jun 26 2008, 10:59 PM   #6
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Default Re: Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

I got the impression that the mental monitering was more to watch out for any mental aberrations, given their abilities, than control of behavior. In other words, it was more to be sure they weren't learning to misuse their telepathy, than to control their normal childhood behaviors.
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Old Jun 27 2008, 03:59 AM   #7
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Default Re: Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

Yes, that's my feeling too. Although I suspect that the possibility of mental supervision made it a little easier for Damia to let her children roam Aurigae hunting for food.

That said, Talented kids are expected to be adults providing for themselves at 16, or at the very least in the last stages of an apprenticeship leading there, so Talents can't be "helicopter parents" continuously hovering over their kids.
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Old Jul 7 2008, 03:44 AM   #8
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Default Re: Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevia View Post
I got the impression that the mental monitering was more to watch out for any mental aberrations, given their abilities, than control of behavior. In other words, it was more to be sure they weren't learning to misuse their telepathy, than to control their normal childhood behaviors.
I've always been a bit concerned about the "mental aberration" part. What constitutes an "aberration", and who says? There are obvious examples of something that is unacceptable behaviour, but the closer you get to the line, the more blurred and grey it becomes.

For example only, what about if the parents were strict in some religion or other and their child showed signs of 'being' something abhorred by that religion? In that religion that would constitute an aberration and they could find a justification for 'tinkering'.

But, yes, as you say, from what we see it's used by Afra and Damia as a way of making sure their children develop 'morally' and use their gifts in a correct way.
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Old Jul 7 2008, 08:59 AM   #9
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Default Re: Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

The risk would be just as great from non-Talented parents who didn't like their children being Talented, and punished them for every glimmer of Talent shown. Kincaid had some such problems growing up. Children can be badly abused and manipulated by parents even without telepathy.

Abuse of Talented or non-Talented children by parents hasn't been shown in the books. Doesn't mean it wouldn't exist, but I do think that Talented parents would be aware of a child suffering, and would recognize the difference between a temporary tantrum brought on by the normal child-rearing process and something that's truly harmful to the child.
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Old Jul 7 2008, 02:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

true not all abuse is hitting. words can cut a lot deeper than a knife.
What is that saying sticks and stones may hurt me but names never hurt? something like that. which is wrong. if i remember right Kincad had two things against him with his family.
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Old Jul 29 2008, 04:41 PM   #11
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Default Re: Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

Yup, Laria picks up what is clearly a rather comprehensive recollection of Kincaid's mother trying to stamp out his independence -- which is probably a big part of why he was as messed up as he was before Laria came along -- due to how close their minds have become.

Neither mind regards the other as a threat at this point.

It's sad, but some parents find it easier to tend sheep than raise children with any real independence of thought -- something I actually have personal experience with. *shrug*

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Old Sep 6 2008, 04:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

The Rowan used some mental suggestion on Jeran as an infant, mostly to make him sleep on the right schedule (page 312, near the top of the page).
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Old Sep 13 2008, 03:45 AM   #13
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Default Re: Mental and/or hypnotic suggestions on children

Then why did she have such a cow during Damia when there were suggestions made to do the same thing?

I think the Rowan WAS being majorly irrational about being a working mom with weird hours requiring tons of skull sweat, then spending off hours trying to cope with a family that was getting larger by the year. NObody can handle that situation rationally 100% of the time I know. especially since Jeff was working too, and likely at a schedule that didn't complement Callisto's. Her blasting the pukha idea for Damia I can understand, childhood traumas are the least likely to shake, but it just seemed that she was trying to punish Damia and herself at the same time. Damia for not being like her older siblings, and herself for WANTING more kids.

off topic, I've been thinking, and wondering if this sounds right, Each timeline Anne makes has some serious family notes to it. Pern is mainly fostering, in holds its an occasional thing, more like an apprenticeship than anything else, in the Weyrs its more "a village to raise a child". Crystal singer, no family to speak of. most of the Brains had no family dealings at all. In the talent line, it varies. during Pegasus, the talents were taken from family and raised as wards of the Bureau, unless their parents were talented also. And the Tower and Hive age, where parents are expected to care for their kids until they reach their majority no matter what their place is.
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