Time travel

[Golden Talisath]

So, here’s a thought…
If Lessa jumped back 400 Turns to meet the Oldtimers, and jumped back to Ruatha when Fax was invading it, and the dragonriders can jump back in time to fight Thread, does that mean we always have a past to which we can return to? I mean, is there another Lessa in the past in Ruatha, who’s suffering the same things as Lessa we know did, and will she also Impress Ramoth and bring the Oldtimers? And will there be again another Lessa who does the very same thing, and the past just goes on repeating itself? And if it is, can it be changed? How will that affect the future?
I remember reading a fanfic on this subject, where Menolly and Mirrim jumped back to different times in the past and the future, never actually being it the right time. And in one of those jumps, Mirrim saw someone else Impressing Path.

[Anareth]

If time travel works the way it seems to in DF, then Mirrim couldn't jump to a time where someone else Impressed Path, because if someone else Impressed Path how would she be riding Path to jump back in time and see someone else Impress her?

The time travel in Pern seems to be the Stable Time Loop variety. It must be done because it has been done therefore it must be done to make sure it's always been done. Hence the concern about not telling people things that might change what they're going to do--ie Lessa and F'lar not telling F'nor about his random leaps forward to warn them the Southern Experiment is having problems, which they see before they even have him leave! They CAN'T tell him and change it, because if they did, how would they know to tell him, etc.

Therefore Lessa COULD try leaping back to Ruatha yet again to see her younger self when Fax invades--but she's been there twice and knows she didn't, so she can't. Pern-Time doesn't seem to be alterable or unstable or even split-able like BTTF. It's more like Somewhere In Time (with the watch from nowhere--the Old Woman gives the Man the watch, he travels back in time with the watch, where he meets Young Woman, gives her the watch, returns to his own time, she grows to become the Old Woman who gives the Man the watch...you can't ask where the watch came from in the first place, just as you can't ask what happened to the lost Weyrs the FIRST time, before Lessa was born and knew she had to go back in time and have them leap forward because the Weyrs were empty?)

[GinnyStar]

It is a time paradox, also the effects on the human half of the rider, or no effect on those who are non-riders. We see it later on Ruth jumps in WD.

At Golden Talisath I have read that story too. I don't recalll of the top of my head the dragon's name I do recall it started with a P and was quite close to Path name.

[Golden Talisath]

Originally Posted by GinnyStar

It is a time paradox, also the effects on the human half of the rider, or no effect on those who are non-riders. We see it later on Ruth jumps in WD.

At Golden Talisath I have read that story too. I don't recalll of the top of my head the dragon's name I do recall it started with a P and was quite close to Path name.

Oh, no, it was Path. The story is The ballad id Mirrim and Menollly's ride, and the lines go like this:

The drudge scrambled to her feet and dashed into the Hatching Ground. There was some shouting from inside, and then Ramoth's bugle rose up and cut off all human noise. The silence that followed was broken by the drudge's ecstatic cry: "She says her name is Path!"

Mirrim walked up to Path and rested her cheek against her dragon's deep green hide. Path nuzzled her, eyes whirling blue. The intimacy between them was so intense that Menolly had to look away.

And to answer to Anareth: it wasn't exactly the past, it was a different past, in which many things happen (for example, during one jump they meet F'lar after Mnementh had flown Ramoth who is actually ridden by Kylara, and Lessa is a Lady Holder of Ruatha, but during the Impression of Ramoth's first clutch, she is pushed on the Hatching grounds by Kylara, and Impress's Prideth). I can't really remember how they get to go to those different realities.
And I have to ask my question differently: if Lessa jumped back 400 Turns and left the people of that time wondering what happened to the Weyrs, do their lives continue on and they get to the point (400 Turns from the point when the Weyrs left) to the point in which we met Lessa and F'lar? And will that Lessa again jump 400 Turns, bring the Oldtimers and leave Benden and Pern wondering where the rest of the Weyrs are?
God, I'm loosing myself here!

[Anareth]

My point was, in Anne's time travel, they couldn't go to a different past. Period. You can't change things, either, at least not in ways that will affect the future, because you'd then negate the reason you jumped in the first place. (Ie, Anne's answer to the Grandfather Paradox is you can't kill your own grandfather because if you did, you would never exist to kill your own grandfather.) Stable Time Loop. The most painful example is Moreta--not only do they know EXACTLY "when" and where Moreta is and therefore they could jump to that location, they also have the unique and horrible situation MONTHS after her death when, for one day, Moreta is alive again somewhere on Pern (she, B'lerion, Oklina, Alessan, Capiam and Desdra leapt forward in time to collect needlethorn.) A Moreta who is going to go back to the past before her death after that day. The temptation for those who know to go to Ista that day and change history must have been overwhelming, especially since by then Oklina had a dragon as well and could possibly have taken them (if her queen was old enough to fly by then.) Or could order another dragon to do it. Yet, they don't. Because if they do, they change the past, they don't KNOW Moreta is going to die, they don't go to Ista to warn her and...Moreta dies.

Anne's time travel is pretty ruthless in its limitations--basically, if it hasn't happened it can't.

[GinnyStar]

Originally Posted by Anareth

My point was, in Anne's time travel, they couldn't go to a different past. Period. You can't change things, either, at least not in ways that will affect the future, because you'd then negate the reason you jumped in the first place. (Ie, Anne's answer to the Grandfather Paradox is you can't kill your own grandfather because if you did, you would never exist to kill your own grandfather.) Stable Time Loop. The most painful example is Moreta--not only do they know EXACTLY "when" and where Moreta is and therefore they could jump to that location, they also have the unique and horrible situation MONTHS after her death when, for one day, Moreta is alive again somewhere on Pern (she, B'lerion, Oklina, Alessan, Capiam and Desdra leapt forward in time to collect needlethorn.) A Moreta who is going to go back to the past before her death after that day. The temptation for those who know to go to Ista that day and change history must have been overwhelming, especially since by then Oklina had a dragon as well and could possibly have taken them (if her queen was old enough to fly by then.) Or could order another dragon to do it. Yet, they don't. Because if they do, they change the past, they don't KNOW Moreta is going to die, they don't go to Ista to warn her and...Moreta dies.

Anne's time travel is pretty ruthless in its limitations--basically, if it hasn't happened it can't.

Also there is the second trip made to get needthorn ny B'lerion, Oklina, and Desdra which B'lerion tell Moreta about when she visites High Reaches Wyer on her request for aid. The night beforer she comes.

[Anareth]

Originally Posted by GinnyStar

Also there is the second trip made to get needthorn ny B'lerion, Oklina, and Desdra which B'lerion tell Moreta about when she visites High Reaches Wyer on her request for aid. The night beforer she comes.

Yep, which means they're in THREE places that day--their past selves at Ista and Nerat, and their current selves (presumably at HRW, Fort, and the Healer Hall.) Which means that someone could have gone to Nerat, not run into Moreta, and warned THAT set of people...but they didn't. Because they can't.

[Golden Talisath]

Ok, I get the whole ''we mustn't change the past so we wouldn't change the future'' thing, but I'm still not getting the response to my answer (just understood that I didn't even ask it before): does the past keep going on and on, and things that have already happen happen again (like in the Lessa bit: will there again be a Lessa, after the Lessa we know, who will jump 400 Turns back, bring the Weyrs and leave whole of Pern wondering where the Weyrs have gone of to, and they get again to Benden in the 9th Pass, Lessa is born, she jumps again, Pern wonders about the Weyrs, and like that again and again).
And I just have to say that while I do understand that you mustn't change the past, that story was a very good (if not correct) idea.

[Ryuu]

Originally Posted by Golden Talisath

Ok, I get the whole ''we mustn't change the past so we wouldn't change the future'' thing, but I'm still not getting the response to my answer (just understood that I didn't even ask it before): does the past keep going on and on, and things that have already happen happen again (like in the Lessa bit: will there again be a Lessa, after the Lessa we know, who will jump 400 Turns back, bring the Weyrs and leave whole of Pern wondering where the Weyrs have gone of to, and they get again to Benden in the 9th Pass, Lessa is born, she jumps again, Pern wonders about the Weyrs, and like that again and again).
And I just have to say that while I do understand that you mustn't change the past, that story was a very good (if not correct) idea.

There wouldn't be an infinite number of Lessas jumping back 400Turns and in fact, there was only one period where she existed three times: The un-Impressed Lessa as a child, the accidental first timing she did upon Ramoth, and the last leg of the 400Turn jump forward with the 5 missing Weyrs.

Regardless of which way you look at the time-line, either from the view point of the rest of the planet or from Lessa's view point, there's only one trip back to bring the Weyrs forward.

The only potential loop issue that might exist is all the stray molecules brought back as air, water, and minerals that Lessa & Ramoth didn't take back with them--which also exists with all the time traveling events. There is a potential that exists where those molecules brought back to the 8th Pass might end up being some of those taken back when she left from the 9th Pass.

But for the people and dragons involved, the paths are more accurately described as zig-zags rather than actual loops.

[Anareth]

There's no repeat (although let's not drag how many times Jaxom exists over how long a period into this), just...there's a roller-coaster loop at one point of Lessa's personal timeline. Past the point when she and the Weyrs arrive in the "future", it doesn't happen again. It already happened.

It does get a little weird when you start thinking about how Jaxom altered the orbit of the Red Star before the survey team that discovered Pern ever arrived and the colonists who'd become his ancestors were even born. But that's one of those things I don't like about time travel stories...

[Eriflor]

Originally Posted by Anareth

There's no repeat (although let's not drag how many times Jaxom exists over how long a period into this), just...there's a roller-coaster loop at one point of Lessa's personal timeline. Past the point when she and the Weyrs arrive in the "future", it doesn't happen again. It already happened.

It does get a little weird when you start thinking about how Jaxom altered the orbit of the Red Star before the survey team that discovered Pern ever arrived and the colonists who'd become his ancestors were even born. But that's one of those things I don't like about time travel stories...

---------
It wasn't that long ago --- Jaxom went back to the 4th and 8th Passes to create his explosions, which caused the First and Second Long Intervals.

Eriflor.

[GinnyStar]

Also without Jaxom and Ruth, and the suit helment mixup it gave Ruth time to get resuplied with oxygen, also those pairs in that second group could have gotten more lost between, on the way back, also why some of the older riders got tempary time lost? I'm thinking of the pair from High Reaches Weyr, the one that made home by recall that day's watch pair was a blue they knew well. perhaps a wing mate or friend?

[jube]

Originally Posted by Eriflor

---------
It wasn't that long ago --- Jaxom went back to the 4th and 8th Passes to create his explosions, which caused the First and Second Long Intervals.

Eriflor.

I concur, the survey teams and the settlement of Pern happened long before Jaxom took the jumps to the 4th (1800 years into the past) and 8th (can't remember if it was 400 or 600 years into the past - I'll have to re-read myself ) passes - you may need to re-read the books again

[Almaron]

Time travel loops aren't neccesarily as confusing as people put it out to be. If time-travel is possible, then all areas of time need to simultaneously exist at the same time, in the same way that another country exists when you travel to it.

Think of it this way. Print a picture of a loop on a piece of paper, which represents a person travelling back from the future. While it's being printed, the loop back appears from nowhere, but by the time the sheet has completely printed (in other words, time passing), the loops beginning has arrived. So even though it may seem to appear out of nowhere in the past, the event of its creation will in the future. It's all a matter of what time you observe this from, as any time is the present for whoever's living there.

Predestination and Free Will could also be argued here. For time travel to exist, each moment of time must exist simultaneously. Therefore, predestination exists in that whatever will happen to someone in 1990 has happened in 2000. This doesn't remove the option of free will. Take a book from your shelf. The characters inside are living their lives normally. We can skip to the end and see what will happen to them, but that doesn't change the fact that they still had their own choices as to what they'd do throughout the story/their lives. And if a person went back to explain his future, it would already happen because he'd have done it in that future.

Okay, that's getting a bit confusing, so I'll stop there.

But while we're on the topic, I've personally never really understood why people can't meet their past selves in time travel. Is it really that big a deal? I can't imagine the universe collapsing over such a thing; surely they would just acknowledge the oddity and move on.

[Golden Talisath]

Originally Posted by Anareth

There's no repeat (although let's not drag how many times Jaxom exists over how long a period into this), just...there's a roller-coaster loop at one point of Lessa's personal timeline. Past the point when she and the Weyrs arrive in the "future", it doesn't happen again. It already happened.

THANK YOU, that's all I wanted to know (about the Jaxom thing... I suppose that happens later on in the books - DoP or AtWoP, perhaps? - and I didn't read them, so I'll skip that discusion for now. I'll get back to you in a couple of months when I DO read them).

[Golden Talisath]

Originally Posted by Almaron

But while we're on the topic, I've personally never really understood why people can't meet their past selves in time travel. Is it really that big a deal? I can't imagine the universe collapsing over such a thing; surely they would just acknowledge the oddity and move on.

As I understand it, it's too much of a shock for a person to be in the same place at the same time, and to KNOW that he is.
And, also, while we're on THIS topic... I read in some book (I can't even remember it's name, just that it had time travel in it - maybe it was even Pern - can't say for sure) in which the main reason why it's not good to see your past selves is because your mind can't understand that, and maybe the one of your realities (the past or the one that jumped to the past, no matter) will try to kill the other one, thus tapering with the time space continuum (like Anareth said, if you kill your past self you don't exist in the future).

[proserpine]

Originally Posted by Golden Talisath

As I understand it, it's too much of a shock for a person to be in the same place at the same time, and to KNOW that he is.
And, also, while we're on THIS topic... I read in some book (I can't even remember it's name, just that it had time travel in it - maybe it was even Pern - can't say for sure) in which the main reason why it's not good to see your past selves is because your mind can't understand that, and maybe the one of your realities (the past or the one that jumped to the past, no matter) will try to kill the other one, thus tapering with the time space continuum (like Anareth said, if you kill your past self you don't exist in the future).

I don't think that's Pern. People who are double timing always feel it no matter how close they are physically, but they don't feel violent toward their contemporary self, just physically exhausted or ill. I always assumed that since riders always have at least a small degree of psychic power, that it was some form of cognitive dissonance caused by being able to sense their other self on a psychic level, especially since they feel it on some level even when they're unaware that they are in fact double timing, like Jaxom during the queen's egg incident, when he was unaware that he was also in the Hatching ground, but still felt ill, or Lessa sensing herself when Fax invaded, both times that she visited, when her contemporary self awoke because of an uneasy feeling generated by the fact that she was also flying above the hold at that time.

[Emeraldrose]

The shock and possibility of killing your past or future self was mentioned in Harry Potter and Prisoner of Azkaban when Hermione explained the Time Turner...."You must not be seen" Harry and Hermione were able to change the outcome by "fixing" the timeline so that Sirius was not captured

[Golden Talisath]

Originally Posted by Emeraldrose

The shock and possibility of killing your past or future self was mentioned in Harry Potter and Prisoner of Azkaban when Hermione explained the Time Turner...."You must not be seen" Harry and Hermione were able to change the outcome by "fixing" the timeline so that Sirius was not captured

Ah, good, I knew I didn't make it up. Yeah, your right, now I remember, I haven't read HP 3 in a long while.

[Kennet]

The stable time loop theory reminds me of a story which I read a very long time ago: A Time Agent is recruited and shown his own death, in which his wife shoots him in the head with a revolver. He makes multiple failed attempts to prevent this, and finally succeeds. The wife draws an empty revolver, squeezes the trigger, and then looks down at the floor and leaves. The now-surviving man wonders what just happened, crosses the room and opens the patio door to the balcony then remembers his drink on the table. He goes back, turns, and fall dead -- struck in the middle of the forehead by a meteorite which was precisely .38 inches in diameter. The Time Agent realizes that the universe will go to unimaginable ends to keep the time line stable and goes back to work.

Kylara, we are told, goes back in time to spy on herself (at least, that is what she tells Prideth). Everyone accepts this because Kylara is vain, in their opinion. Actually, Kylara is travelling in time to attempt to alter the present. She has bedded Meron in order to get information about the attack on Ruatha. She then travels back in time to mastermind the attack, trying to ensure that Lessa is killed. That way, Kylara will impress Ramoth and she will be The Weyrwoman of Pern (rather than that jumped-up drudge Lessa).

It will not work, of course, because she is riding Prideth, Ramoth's daughter. Prideth will always come back to the present where Lessa impressed Ramoth, thus undoing all of Kylara's plotting. Also, she does not realize that the reason there is only one weyr is because Lessa brought the others forward, and, if Lessa is 'removed' the weyrs would still be around and Kylara would, at best, become a junior queen rider at some other weyr (I don't recall which Hold she was from).

[Anareth]

Originally Posted by Kennet

Also, she does not realize that the reason there is only one weyr is because Lessa brought the others forward, and, if Lessa is 'removed' the weyrs would still be around and Kylara would, at best, become a junior queen rider at some other weyr (I don't recall which Hold she was from).

Kylara's a sister of Larad of Telgar.

And there's an even more likely potential outcome of the Weyrs not coming forward--almost no one we know in the Ninth Pass is ever born. Having all the Weyrs mean there would be hundreds (more likely a few thousand, counting Weyrfolk) of people staying through the beginning of the Long Interval, to have children, move around, and draw Candidates to Weyrs who, in the original timeline, would have remained at holds. Dragons would have transferred, queens would have moved from one Weyr to another. Dragonets would have been hatched that weren't, different people would have Impressed, it's unlikely that Benden would have been reduced to a single queen and a handful of bronzes. With different people being Searched for more Weyrs, it's possible Lessa doesn't get born given how many Ruathans were suitable as dragonriders-one of her ancestors might have gone to Fort in the Interval. Or instead of spending most of her life a drudge, Lessa's Searched by Fort long before Benden gets a look-in.

[Kennet]

Just to throw more spanners into the works: Without Lessa, there would be no Long Intervals (Jaxom caused both by timing his trips to alter the course of the Red Star), so Eighth Pass would be Ninth, followed by Tenth, with Lessa and Kylara born just before Eleventh Pass.

Everyone who we know from Ninth Pass Pern would still be there, plus extras, but they would not be doing the same things. Fax might be the head of a Free University (i.e. not affiliated with any Craft Hall, especially HarperHall), and a widower raising Jaxom. Robinton might be a famous composer, but is never considered for MasterHarper.

H.Beam Piper wrote a story titled "He Walked Around the Horses" which dealt with a real-life disappearance in Napoleonic Germany. The man, and all his papers, end up in a parallel world where the French Revolution had never happened. He is shot while trying to escape, and all that they have is his papers. They find almost everybody, but in different roles: Metternich is in the Ministry of Agriculture (IIRC), Napoleon is a captain in the Royal French Artillery, etc. The British also search and find everyone except the Duke of Wellington. The person in the Foreign Office who reports on this signs his name: Arthur Wellesley.

[Anareth]

Actually there's no reason to think they'd be there. The presence of all those other people who disappeared, the continuation of Threadfall (including potential accidents and different resource allocation), the changes in travel patterns with the presence of the Weyrs, the radically different birth rates and presence of people who wouldn't be there (all the offspring of all the riders and Weyrfolk that would have been born-several generations' worth--introduced into the Pern population), generations of dragons needing riders who were never born...there's pretty much no way everyone (but ESPECIALLY the Weyrfolk) are all born the same way at the same time. Lessa and Kylara, heck--with the regional Weyrs all still in place and being involved, chances are marriages that needed to happen don't happen, required alliances are different...they maybe don't get born.

[Anneli]

Just thinking about this is giving me a headache

[granath]

Time travel gives me a chronic headache... :p