Dragonriders burial

[Golden Talisath]

The passing of our Dragonlady made me thinking about burial customs on Pern, mainly for dragonriders. Dragons go between after the deaths of their rider, but what happens with the rider's body? Do they have a burial place somewhere outside of the Weyr, or do they send the riders between like unhatched eggs? Do they perhaps burn the body?

[Kath]

I'm pretty sure I've seen burial (wrong word - too ill and tired to pull the right one out of my head) between used in fanfic (Faye Upton's Dragonchoice, IIRC), but I can't remember any exact canon references except perhaps the inscription in the hidden rooms in Benden Weyr, which referred to someone departing between for all time being synonymous for death...

[Anareth]

In ATWOP, when they finally recover Sallah Telgar's body (or mummy, as the case may be) from the ships, the bury her in the caverns of Telgar "with her family", ie the descendents, so the Holders at least bury their dead in a kind of catacomb. The dragonriders would logically take bodies between--easy low-work way of disposal plus the element of 'reuniting with their dragon.'

Cremation is actually a fairly involved means of disposing of the dead--it either requires having a crematoria where you can jack the temperature up super-high to reduce the body to ash fairly fast without many big pieces of bone left, or you have to have a LOT of fuel and ideally some kind of accelerant to burn the body that way, which will take a long time, smell a bit like roasting meat for a while, and will leave pretty large chunks of bone unless you have LOTS of fuel and time. "Sky burial" (leaving the body to be picked over by scavengers, one way or another) is another method, but the Pernese probably are not big into anything leaving bodies exposed--leaving something out for Thread is a serious taboo.

[GinnyStar]

Well we read also about the the Death Song, and sea burial of both Petiron and Robinton, the way they did even if we don't know the words, Dragonsong All the Weyrs of Pern. I would think, that they would take the rider between.

[Brenda]

I would think that dragonriders would be interred between

[Anareth]

Originally Posted by GinnyStar

Well we read also about the the Death Song, and sea burial of both Petiron and Robinton, the way they did even if we don't know the words, Dragonsong All the Weyrs of Pern. I would think, that they would take the rider between.

Good point. Sea holds could do sea-burials.

[Cheryl]

I remember Nerilka describing the mass graves after the plague, from which it's reasonable to think that single burials are normal for inland Holds.

[Kath]

It's really the only option for mass bodies when firewood is in short supply. Can anyone seriously imagine the Pernese doing a cremation? How extravagant would that be?

[Anareth]

Originally Posted by Kath

It's really the only option for mass bodies when firewood is in short supply. Can anyone seriously imagine the Pernese doing a cremation? How extravagant would that be?

Or trying to do it with coal?

Though I hope for those mass graves they had lime or the Pernese equivalent....

[Kath]

They need coal for the fire heights, I'd guess - and it's pretty costly anyway, given the refs to Crom coal in the books.

Now you've got me thinking of Pernese BBQs.

Lime though - yeah, they'd definitely need that.

[Eriflor]

Simple burial (in a shroud, not a coffin) would seem to be the most ecologically-friendly method for holds at a distance from the sea. The bodies would eventually decompose and fertilise the soil. This method is actually gaining in popularity on present-day Earth, as it avoids the use of poisonous embalming fluids or alternatively fuel-intensive crematoria.

[Rianne]

hmmmm, Do all harpers get buried at sea, if Robinton was, in addition to Petiron (he was, right?)

[Anareth]

Originally Posted by Kath

They need coal for the fire heights, I'd guess - and it's pretty costly anyway, given the refs to Crom coal in the books.

Now you've got me thinking of Pernese BBQs.

Lime though - yeah, they'd definitely need that.

I was thinking more about how long an open coal pyre would take to burn even one body, never mind a massive stack....

And yeah. That would smell DISTRESSINGLY like a barbecue, actually.

I hope they had lime, deep pits, and some allowance in covering them for how many gasses that would produce.

[Anneli]

Interesting idea I think though that it was most likely more to do with the fact that both Petiron and Robinton were living at Sea Holds when they died which would make burial at sea an obvious option, plus for Robinton it gave a big enough scenario for all the worthies of Pern to attend without arguing about who should be in the front row...

Originally Posted by Rianne

hmmmm, Do all harpers get buried at sea, if Robinton was, in addition to Petiron (he was, right?)

[GinnyStar]

Originally Posted by Anareth

<snip>I hope they had lime, deep pits, and some allowance in covering them for how many gasses that would produce.

Bitra Hold had them, Dragonseye/Red Star Rising

[skywaterblue]

There's also firestone and ageenothree flamethrowers.

One note about land burial: it's mentioned a couple of places that almost all Pernese get buried under a slab of stone to protect the interred body from Thread. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't above-ground mausoleums and the like - I generally think Pern likely has more above-ground, independent dwellings than fanon would have you think and if most caverns ARE being used for residences then you wouldn't want to use them for crypts.

[Rianne]

@ Anneli that does make sense, I hadn't remembered that robinton died near the ocean.

[Eriflor]

Originally Posted by skywaterblue

There's also firestone and ageenothree flamethrowers.

One note about land burial: it's mentioned a couple of places that almost all Pernese get buried under a slab of stone to protect the interred body from Thread. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't above-ground mausoleums and the like - I generally think Pern likely has more above-ground, independent dwellings than fanon would have you think and if most caverns ARE being used for residences then you wouldn't want to use them for crypts.

If they're buried under cropland, then the dragons will protect them from Thread. And why protect something that's going to decompose in the course of time anyway? More likely the stone slab (if any) is to protect the body from being dug up by predators before it has a chance to decompose. (And often it would just be a cairn of smaller rocks piled over the grave.)

At one stage in history, Christians used to believe that people would be physically resurrected from their bones, and therefore family members should be buried close together (or interred in tombs) and kept intact. The Pernese had no such religious beliefs (as far as one can tell).

Maybe the Telgar lords had a tradition of burying their family members in a cave together, or maybe they interred Sallah with the bones of the first Telgar lords. The burial ceremony included the words "May she rest now with others of her Blood . . .". The tomb/cave was sealed after the ceremony.

[Cheryl]

Originally Posted by skywaterblue

There's also firestone and ageenothree flamethrowers.

I would think they're too precious and important for the protection of living people to be used for cremations.

[Anareth]

Originally Posted by Cheryl

I would think they're too precious and important for the protection of living people to be used for cremations.

Not to mention we're back to the fact that burning a body takes either an oven with a VERY high temperature (that is how modern crematoria work) and still needs to burn quite a while to reduce a body or a LOT of fuel and time. Using a flamethrower would be like taking a blowtorch to it--mostly you'd end up smelling charred hair and skin and unless you piled it on a LOT of fuel, you'd have to stand there continuously flaming it until it burned down to bones. (You won't get the pretty little box of gritty ashes in a 'natural' cremation. You'll get ash from the fuel and big chunks of bone and anything else that doesn't get burned all the way.)

The agenothree are SPRAYERS, aren't they? Not flamethrowers. Nitric acid alone isn't going to cause fire. And while spraying THAT on a body will get rid of it eventually, that's...not going to be a fun job.

[Brenda]

The agenothree are SPRAYERS, aren't they? Not flamethrowers. Nitric acid alone isn't going to cause fire.

No. There are many, many references in the books to flamethrowers which use agenothree tanks.

Fandarel developed an agenothree sprayer in DF, before the Weyrs came forward, but immediately jumped on the flamethrowers they brought with them. The sprayer is definitely something different.

It might not make scientific sense, but that's what's in the canon.

If the flamethrowers do use something along with the agenothree, then maybe they can be adapted to spray acid. I think that's what was used at the beach in DQ to dispose of the firelizard hatchlings that died.

[Anareth]

Well, then they're not just nitric acid because that won't burn. They'd need another chemical. They still wouldn't be hot enough to burn a body without taking hours at best. And nitric acid alone would just melt it. You could put a body in a vat of it and let it break down, but it would be a pretty disgusting way to go.

I wonder, if they had someone like Chalkin who was REALLY despised who died before they could be exiled if, during a pass, they'd ACTUALLY leave the body out for Thread. That would be about the worst flipping of the bird to a body I would think they could have on Pern.

[Brenda]

They'd have to put it up on a mountaintop or something, where it would be safe to let the Thread fall. Or maybe a nice rocky crag out in the ocean...

[Almaron]

Part of me thinks it makes sense for deceased riders to be interred Between - in a sense, wouldn't that mean the rider's body would be with their dragon's; so they'd be together in death?

As was said earlier, cremating would probably be a drain on valuable resources during a pass. Come to think of it, considering how often dragons and their riders must perish in Threadfall, they'd have to have a cremation nearly every week! That'd get pretty demoralising after a while.

Burying...how hard would it be for a group of dragons or their riders to dig a grave? Again, the problem is just how many people die; they'd have to do a mass grave of some sorts or at least have a large area of land prepared for burial.

Perhaps all these are options used by the Weyr - for example, the Weyrleader could decide the method of burial for deceased riders in hard times, or the Weyrmate of the deceased could decide what to do with the body, or perhaps the deceased could have planned it prior to their death?

It occurs to me that being interred Between could be linked to the practise of suicidal riders being carried Between by dragons and then "let go"; perhaps one act inspired the other?

[Almaron]

Just found the quote I believe Skywaterblue is referencing; it's in the DLG:

The bodies of the dead are rarely buried in the ground without some protection from the sky. There is a dislike of leaving the body of a loved one where it might get Threadseared. Instead, the dead are interred in stone cairns or under stone tablets. Cremations are not uncommon, but in poor or woodless holds, cave burials are more accepted. Fisherfolk have elaborate and solemn ceremonies for burial at sea.

It's not clear whether this is just referring to Holds or whether it includes the Weyrs as well. We know that the two groups have different views on many matters (Holds shunning some practise while Weyrs embrace it and so on), so burial could easily be another area.

[Eriflor]

As I said before in different words, if somebody is buried in an area devoted to crops, the local Weyr will be protecting the cropland, so the dead body is automatically protected.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Eriflor

As I said before in different words, if somebody is buried in an area devoted to crops, the local Weyr will be protecting the cropland, so the dead body is automatically protected.

As would a live body be, but the Hold folk still don't want to go out in Threadfall... One can't expect rational behaviour from humans.

[P'ter]

Refering back to post #4: I'm sure the words of Menolly's lament for Petiron are around. I seem to remember Tanya and Mike performing them.

[Brenda]

I don't think the deathsong Menolly sings on the funeral barge is the same as her "Song for Petiron". It was obviously an old, traditional song.

These are the words to Menolly's song, though:

The tears I feel today
I'll wait to shed tomorrow
Though I'll not sleep this night
Nor find surcease from sorrow
My eyes must keep their sight
I dare not be tear-blinded
I must be free to talk
Not choked with grief, clear-minded.
My mouth cannot betray
The anguish that I know
Yes, I'll keep my tears till later
But my grief will never go.


This is my version of it.

[WandaSue]

Beautiful voice!!

[skywaterblue]

Originally Posted by Eriflor

As I said before in different words, if somebody is buried in an area devoted to crops, the local Weyr will be protecting the cropland, so the dead body is automatically protected.

The main reason you wouldn't want to do this is fear of tilling up the body. Human bones (like all bones) take ages and ages to decompose. And I don't care how advanced the Pernese are supposed to be without religious belief, tilling up an old skull out of your wheat field is going to be psychologically disturbing.

So. There must be places for the Pernese to bury bodies away from active cultivation, where the burial is marked. If cremation is entirely out of the picture, you'd have to have somewhere reasonably set aside from human activity that doesn't waste resources.