Empathic Humans

[Gidget2]

I'm just re-reading Dragonsdawn, and came across a tiny and throw-away comment that I'd never noticed before.

In the section about dogs and cats being born (early in Chapter 6).

It had regretfully been decided not to use the Eridani techniques, especially mentasynth on the dogs after considerable trouble with such adaptations on Earth. Some of the stock, and indeed many of the human beings, had ancestors who had been 'enhanced' and their descendants still showed the extreme empathy, something that dogs apparently couldn't adapt to.

The emphasis is mine.

Firstly, it is clear from the passage that "the stock" is specifically stock present on Pern, as are the human beings.

Secondly, have I completely missed any other discussion of this here or elsewhere? I mean, it's quite an important thing, really, isn't it?

Clearly the Colonists weren't exactly playing with a level playing field, or even the same as us humans around now. A sizeable proportion of the population has ancestors with a boosted empathy rating. Since 9th Pass dolphins have the same traits as their Landing ancestors, presumably mentasynth and other Eridani Techniques are very inheritable (what's the point, otherwise?).

So you have people who have an inherited empathy boost who are picked to live in the Weyrs and breed with other people who have an inherited empathy boost (not strictly, but other Weyrfolk may have it to a lesser degree), and that in itself would strengthen those empathy bonds. There is a flow of genetic wealth into and out of the Weyrs to mix it all up.

But .... that's quite key, don't you think, as to understanding where all these empathic people keep coming from in a population?

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by Gidget2

I'm just re-reading Dragonsdawn, and came across a tiny and throw-away comment that I'd never noticed before.

In the section about dogs and cats being born (early in Chapter 6).



The emphasis is mine.

Firstly, it is clear from the passage that "the stock" is specifically stock present on Pern, as are the human beings.

Secondly, have I completely missed any other discussion of this here or elsewhere? I mean, it's quite an important thing, really, isn't it?

Clearly the Colonists weren't exactly playing with a level playing field, or even the same as us humans around now. A sizeable proportion of the population has ancestors with a boosted empathy rating. Since 9th Pass dolphins have the same traits as their Landing ancestors, presumably mentasynth and other Eridani Techniques are very inheritable (what's the point, otherwise?).

So you have people who have an inherited empathy boost who are picked to live in the Weyrs and breed with other people who have an inherited empathy boost (not strictly, but other Weyrfolk may have it to a lesser degree), and that in itself would strengthen those empathy bonds. There is a flow of genetic wealth into and out of the Weyrs to mix it all up.

But .... that's quite key, don't you think, as to understanding where all these empathic people keep coming from in a population?

Deus ex machina.

[Jayru]

Originally Posted by ElectricDragon

Deus ex machina.

Indeed.

But yes, the point Gidget makes is very imprtant for understanding why the People of Pern are in many ways so suited to there enviroment, and there somewhat unique situation

[Gidget2]

I'm sure that once, somewhere, I saw a banging-head-on-table-in-frustration smilie. Can't find it, so shall combine some, if you don't mind?



*sigh*

I thought it was an interesting snippet which I hadn't noticed before, and thank you, Jayru, for stating that it's quite important, as the population was already of high empathy ratings before the dragons arrived - and undoubtedly contributed to not only Kitti's machinations (wrong word, I know) but the ensuing success of the dragon-human bond.

[edith]

Now there's a good point... it would also perhaps be why the 9th Pass Pernese have situations where candidates they expect to Impress Bronze go home empty handed, while unknowns Impress- there is a genetic factor. It'd also be why dragon-riding seems to run in families.

[Gidget2]

Originally Posted by edith

Now there's a good point... it would also perhaps be why the 9th Pass Pernese have situations where candidates they expect to Impress Bronze go home empty handed, while unknowns Impress- there is a genetic factor. It'd also be why dragon-riding seems to run in families.

Yes, I hadn't thought about that, edith! I would like to assume (if it doesn't get me flamed) that the Hanrahans either had a damn lot of natural empathy, or were certainly one of many who had ancestors who had been "enhanced".

[edith]

Originally Posted by Gidget2

Yes, I hadn't thought about that, edith! I would like to assume (if it doesn't get me flamed) that the Hanrahans either had a damn lot of natural empathy, or were certainly one of many who had ancestors who had been "enhanced".

Didn't a lot of the enhanced work with animals.

[Jayru]

Gidget - it's VERY interesting, and as you say overlooked sometimes.

Anne snuck it in there, and it explains all.

Indeed edith, it would explain why some familys - such the Ruathans, produced so many dragonriders.

I think without a doubt that the Hanrahans had a few ancestors who had been enhanced... in fact i think (but would need to check) that a reference to that exists within Dragonsdawn...

[Gidget2]

Originally Posted by edith

Didn't a lot of the enhanced work with animals.

From the beginning of Chapter 8, DDawn:

Initially, the humans from Beltrae who had been 'touched' were regarded with great suspicion, of course, but as soon as their remarkable empathetical powers with animals and other people were realised, the technique became widespread; luckily, well before the Pure Human Group became powerful. Many, even of the nomadic races, had a few valued 'healers' whose abilities had been amplified in this way.

I presume that when Anne says "widespread", she means that the "technique" went from Beltrae to the other colonies and back to Earth.

As Kitti later says:

"I was the merest student, though a very willing and eager one, in the Great Beltrae Halls of Eridani. I was taught what would happen if I did this or that, enlarged or reduced, severed that synapse or modified the gene pattern. Most of the time what I was taught to do worked, but, alas, I never knew why sometimes the modification failed and the organism died. Or should have. The Beltrae would teach us the how but never the why."

(As a complete aside, Beltrae Partners are an Independent Corporate Finance advisory firm and Private Equity investor, with offices in Belfast and Dublin, and not a known star or anything....)

[edith]

Perhaps Beltrae was a planet name, or an Eridani name?

[Gidget2]

Originally Posted by edith

Perhaps Beltrae was a planet name, or an Eridani name?

It must be.

[Chimaerrha]

The Beltrae were an Eridani people.

D'Dawn on.:

Incorporation of mentasynth, which had originally been developed by
the Beltrae, a reclusive Eridani hive culture, sparked latent empathic
abilities. Dragonets had already demonstrated such an ability, amounting to
an almost telepathic communication with a few people. The dragonets were
clearly a remarkable evolutionary attempt which, like dolphins, had
produced an animal that understood its environment -- and controlled it.
So, inspired by the success of the dolphinsґ mentasynth enhancement, Bay
and Pol hoped that the dragonets would come to an even closer empathy with
people.
Initially, humans from Beltrae who had been »touched« were regarded
with great suspicion, of course, but as soon as their remarkable empathic
powers with animals and other people were realized, the technique became
widespread. Many groups eventually had valued healers whose abilities had
been amplified that way. Luckily, that all happened well before the Pure
Human group became powerful.

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by edith

Now there's a good point... it would also perhaps be why the 9th Pass Pernese have situations where candidates they expect to Impress Bronze go home empty handed, while unknowns Impress- there is a genetic factor. It'd also be why dragon-riding seems to run in families.

It would seem entirely reasonable that there would be some sort of genetic link to whatever trait permits Impression. And being genetic, it would also be unsurprising for it to be passed down in families.

As for the periodic miss on a seeming "sure thing" impression, enough other genetic input might well mitigate against selection. So you get F'lar and F'nor out of the same father, IIRC, and different mothers. You might expect them both to Impress bronze based on their father, but they split bronze and brown.

I agree with you.

[Gwina]

Now ya see..this is why I feel so closely connected to these books. There's that "pull" and connection that Anne likes to throw in there between human and animal alike. I can only speak metaphysically because I'm not of a scientist perspective. It would make sense genetically however, and explain some families having stronger connections with certain jobs and talents. I think it's humorous that Anne writes how dogs couldn't adapt. No offense to dog lovers (and I may be totally off) but she puts quite the emphasis on cat-like (not too mention, horse-like) qualities in dragons. Course they do like the eye ridges scratched and thats a bit dog-like.
Veered off a bit... I'm sure dogs were inetended for other tasks. Cats are good for pest control and other things. They all have their purpose. Just another observation. (-:

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by Gwina

Now ya see..this is why I feel so closely connected to these books. There's that "pull" and connection that Anne likes to throw in there between human and animal alike. I can only speak metaphysically because I'm not of a scientist perspective. It would make sense genetically however, and explain some families having stronger connections with certain jobs and talents. I think it's humorous that Anne writes how dogs couldn't adapt. No offense to dog lovers (and I may be totally off) but she puts quite the emphasis on cat-like (not too mention, horse-like) qualities in dragons. Course they do like the eye ridges scratched and thats a bit dog-like.
Veered off a bit... I'm sure dogs were inetended for other tasks. Cats are good for pest control and other things. They all have their purpose. Just another observation. (-:

Horse-like I can see. Some people do also seem to have a natural affinity for animals. I get along with them fine (dog person, so I think we're required to cordially loath each other--have to check the union rules on that), but my mother will have almost nothing to do with them. My wife gets long with them, but her mother will have nothing to do with them. The weird thing is that both of our mothers are distinctly out of place in our families in this regard.

[granath]

That's not to say there aren't dogs on Pern. There are, at least at the Harper Hall working the huge spits.

Seems to me the cats didn't take to mentasynth very well either, as they all went wild and became a menace. Apparently they didn't even try to take domestic cats with them. The firelizards would serve much the same purpose in pest control, however.

That might explain the chronic lack of proper archives on Pern, they were all eaten by tunnel snakes when the colonists lost touch with firelizards! :p

[Jayru]

Originally Posted by granath

Apparently they didn't even try to take domestic cats with them.

Yes, they did.

Reference in Dragonsdawn about the number of kitten born.

I'll pull up the page number later If memory serves though, that's about all the references domestic cats got on Pern - so they may not have survived in the Ninth Pass

[Gidget2]

Three bitches were expeting imminently and there were seventeen kittens from four tabbies, though one mother cat had had only one. Six more bitches and the other two female cats would be in heat soon and would shortly be inseminated or receive embryos.

Dragonsdawn, beginning of Chapter 6

The thing about the part in the DLG about the domesticated cats evolving into the beasts that caused the epidemic in Moreta, was that Ted Tubberman had lion/cheetah-like cats who he had applied the mentasynth process to. I haven't got to that part of DDawn yet, so can't quote you on it right this second. However, I think it was implied that these cheetah/lion types went a bit crazy and ate Ted and his family (other than the son) and then escaped. It was the descendants of these (and others, presumably) that attacked P'tero and M'leng (I hope) in DE/RSR, were the plague vector in Moreta and whose skins Tai et al were collecting in SoP. No way you naturally get a lion-type from this:

(Good Lord! I am so sorry - I had no idea it was so big! [Said the actress to the Bishop])

I think Anne has said somewhere that riding horses is the closest experience you can have on Earth to riding a dragon, and that she purposely made the dragons more equine through her love of horses. I don't have a quote on that LOL

[Hans]

informative, educative and funny with a picture too boot... what more does a post need!?

[Gidget2]

Originally Posted by Hans

informative, educative and funny with a picture too boot... what more does a post need!?

You know me, Hans - I can but try!

[Jayru]

So cute.... you have just gotta love cats... Makes me want to stick some pics up, of my monster... and I am refering to my cat here, not anything else people might be thinking...

The felines that had the flu in Moreta evolved from the ones that attacked Ted Tubberman (his family escaped, only he got "eaton" - well kind of). Spotted cats, nuts, can't remember off the top of my head the species, there is a picture of one at the end of the People of Pern...

I can't think of another reference in the books about the domestic moggie, the only ones we get in future books are about the big cats Tubberman created.

[Gidget2]

Spotted big cat would be leopard, cheetah, jaguar. Lions are only spotted when cubs, and tigers are striped. There are other wild cats, but none count as "big cats".

I'm sure cheetahs are mentioned in the text. IIRC, Ted 'checked out' the cheetah ova from 'Stores'. When I find it, I'll post it! LOL

It's strange how some people say you can only be a cat person or a dog person. I love my dogs dearly, and have always gotten along well with dogs. At the same time, my family has always had cats and I always got on well with them too!

[edith]

Originally Posted by ElectricDragon

Horse-like I can see. Some people do also seem to have a natural affinity for animals. I get along with them fine (dog person, so I think we're required to cordially loath each other--have to check the union rules on that), but my mother will have almost nothing to do with them. My wife gets long with them, but her mother will have nothing to do with them. The weird thing is that both of our mothers are distinctly out of place in our families in this regard.

I'm a dog-person but I do get on well with cats and most animals, especially as I don't mind being climbed on or grabbed or whatever.

Moreta was written before Dragonsdawn so the idea of the metasynthed cats had not arisen then, though I always got the impression that the Moreta Feline was a lynx or something of that sort.

[Gidget2]

It's all about the tail ......

[Hans]

Originally Posted by Gidget2

It's all about the tail ......

probably tall

[Gidget2]

Originally Posted by Hans

probably tall

Am I being thick?

[Hans]

A tall tail - a tall tale?

Am I being stupid, playing with a language not my own?

Besides with Lynx I thought it was in the ears and in the end its all in the eyes... of the beholder (is that Pernese for beekeeper... oh no, no bees on Pern)

Geez, am I silly today

[Gidget2]

Originally Posted by Hans

A tall tail - a tall tale?

Am I being stupid, playing with a language not my own?

Besides with Lynx I thought it was in the ears and in the end its all in the eyes... of the beholder (is that Pernese for beekeeper... oh no, no bees on Pern)

Geez, am I silly today

ROFL No, it was me being totally not with it!!! Very good!!

Well, lynx tend to have much reduced tails compared to other felines. If the ones in Ddawn and Moreta have tails - not lynx!

[Hans]

Tbberman could have programmed a tail... he was razy but the otheres said he was good at his work!

The pic in The People of Pern is a lynx, right? They're the only one with the tufted ears? I'm not that knowledgeable on that kind of nature...

[Jayru]

Lynx is correct...

and no one knows for sure what Tubberman did - which kind of helps

I guess I have always been more of a cat person, but that's because we've always had them. Only had the one myself, and that wasn't by choice - and he no longer lives with me (lives with the ex). But I kind of have visitation rights... LOL

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by Hans

informative, educative and funny with a picture too boot... what more does a post need!?

Animation.

[Gidget2]

Originally Posted by ElectricDragon

Animation.

Feel free to make Kitty dance!

(Incidentally - never let your 5 year old niece name your pets. Ergo Kitty. And a kitten - who is now no longer with us - called Squirtle.)

[Jayru]

Originally Posted by Gidget2

Feel free to make Kitty dance!

(Incidentally - never let your 5 year old niece name your pets. Ergo Kitty. And a kitten - who is now no longer with us - called Squirtle.)

never tempt a man who knows how to use Flash, and animate stuff

yesss, tell me about... my mums latest has been called "Fluff." That's a cat that's gonna have issues...

[Gidget2]

Flash me and animate me.

(Well, Kitty anyway )

Please someone - drag us back on topic!

[Brenda]

It just occurred to me that maybe the cats refused to cooperate when the colonists had to pull out of Landing. Or else they just didn't survive in the North. Wonder if there are small feral cats as well as the big ones down south?

Although (changing my mind halfway through) they MUST have cats in the north, or how would they know to call the southern beast a feline?

[Jayru]

Originally Posted by Gidget2

Flash me and animate me.

(Well, Kitty anyway )

Flash you and animate you huh?

Please someone - drag us back on topic!

But this is sooo much fun....

Originally Posted by Brenda

It just occurred to me that maybe the cats refused to cooperate when the colonists had to pull out of Landing. Or else they just didn't survive in the North. Wonder if there are small feral cats as well as the big ones down south?

Although (changing my mind halfway through) they MUST have cats in the north, or how would they know to call the southern beast a feline?

Reverse logic is so much fun sometimes, and gives the simpilist of answers. They must have "felines" to know what they are

[edith]

I suppose that they are just there in the background, just as the canines are mostly in the background.

[Jayru]

Indeed, although canines are at least mentioned in various books!

[Jayru]

And moggies are mentioned in one book!

Red Star Rising. Luccha, Chalkin's daughter, is mentioned as being busy "trying to unite the Hold's cats by tying their tails together"

But I can't think of any references to moggies/domestic cats beyound the Second Pass...

[Brenda]

Uh...

Moggies?

Whazzat?