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Old Nov 30 2004, 03:07 AM   #1
Cheryl
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Exclamation Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

I should be in bed, but I can't sleep at the moment and my thoughts keep coming back to this topic, so I figured I might as well just post about it now.

The subject of the F'nor/Brekke sex scene in DQ has come up but not really been discussed in the topic on Kylara, and it seems a good one for an in depth discussion. Related in some ways to this is the subject of Tai's mating flight experiences.

At question: Did F'nor rape Brekke? Was Tai raped during Zaranth's mating flights?

Personally I don't think either question has a black&white, yes-or-no answer. Hmmm, I think I shall wait until tomorrow however to explain my viewpoint in detail, and see what others have to say first.

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Old Nov 30 2004, 03:47 AM   #2
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

It's a very good question. There are no easy answers to this one. I would tend to go with coerced sex rather than rape, because the men involved weren't in control of themselves, and certainly weren't out to purposefully hurt anyone. Their minds and bodies were controlled by the passion of the dragons. Rape isn't about sex, it's about power, forcing another into submission.

Tai did, finally, enjoy the encounter she had with F'lessan in Skies. It's hard to tell about the other flights she had, because Anne hasn't written them up. Tai had mixed feelings, certainly she felt resentful of Zaranth for forcing her to go through those unwanted matings, and guilty about that resentment. Can't be an easy mix to live with. It'd be nice if Anne for once wrote about a female greenrider (preferably weyrbred) who didn't have any sexual hangups, and who could wantonly enjoy sex with any rider whose dragon happened to catch hers...

I don't think F'nor raped Brekke either. She wanted it, but her upbringing didn't allow her to enjoy sex with a man she wasn't married to. Come to that, most women on Pern probably don't expect to enjoy sex, given that they could be married off to anyone their father or brother thought suitable, with no regard to their own feelings.
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Old Nov 30 2004, 06:57 AM   #3
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

I'd be inclined to say no to both cases, with an added heavy BUT!

Brekke really did seem to come round to F'nor's attentions in the end. She wanted to be able to lose her inhibititions, she wanted a positive experience outside of flight sex in order to protect Wirenth, she wanted to build her self confidence. To a certain extent, she achieved all this, and that's likely why she eventually acquiesced to F'nor.

Not that she had any choice in the matter though.
F'nor wasn't taking no for an answer, despite a very clear NO! being given by Brekke. He was rough, violent even, and totally overpowered her. I'm sure he wanted her to be his willingly, and even expected her to do so, but there were never any guarantees. I don't think it was rape in Brekke's case, but it very, very easily could have been. Both Brekke and F'nor were incredibly lucky there. She may have desperately needed to lose her virginity before Wirenth's flight, but what was the rush? At the time it happened, Brekke really wasn't quite ready.

As for Tai, she at least was under no illusions about her future flights, and was determined not to have any major hangups about them which would affect Zaranth in the way that Brekke was fearful of affecting Wirenth... Although I guess she didn't really do a great job of it. She really needed better guidance, which neither the goldriders or monogamous green-riding Mirrim could adequately give her - what Tai needed was a good long heart-to-heart with a 1st or 2nd pass female greenrider! What with them all being centuries dead, she was stuck in very much a minority group. Mind you, weren't some of the young holdbred lads in the same boat? Would every single male green weyrling adjust so easily to the weyr lifestyle? I think not.

But, I do think the weyrs would have a certain amount of etiquette regarding flights, and a lot of this seems to have been lost in Tai's case. The novelty of a female green rider was probably too much to pass up. The fact that her weyrleaders/weyrlingmaster/wingleader allowed things to occur as they had is criminally negligent - the needs of the dragon come first, and the first need of the dragon is a healthy, happy rider - but that doesn't include putting the health/happiness of another pair at risk through aggressive flights.
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Old Nov 30 2004, 07:07 AM   #4
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Hmmmmmm. Interesting question and comments.
I agree that the involvment of dragon mating flights changes the rules quite abit... It is a shame that Tai was not given the kind of female green rider instructions that were given to the new dragonrider girls in Dragonseye so she could make arrangements ahead of time. Some weyrwoman did not do her duty by her.

It is correct that rape is about power not sex though sex is used... Fax comes to mind. So do the border gards in Dragonseye.
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Old Nov 30 2004, 07:33 AM   #5
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

I don't hink that either are examples of rape, but definately coerced sex. Tai's experience was much more serious then Brekkes, as Brekke WANTED F'nor, whilst Tai herself did not want the riders of any of the dragons who flew Zaranth.

I feel more sorry for the male green riders on THEIR first flight...
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Old Nov 30 2004, 07:37 AM   #6
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

If by "arrangements" you mean stand-ins, I don't think anyone in a Weyr in the 9th Pass knew of the possiblity. Even if they had known, it wouldn't've been much help, since Tai didn't have a human mate she was emotionally attached to.

Touching on this topic, Lessa was willing enough in her first mating flight, but if dragons weren't involved "it might as well have been called rape"... So although the love story of Lessa and F'lar probably breaks several Weyr records, it certainly didn't start at first or even second sight! Lessa had, after all, been about three Turns at the Weyr by the time Ramoth flew.
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Old Nov 30 2004, 10:47 AM   #7
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Minor point: I'm not sure that legally there is a real difference between rape and coerced sex, unless we're limiting rape strictly to "violent sexual assault."

The F'nor/Brekke scene is pretty clear, as no dragons were involved. By modern legal/ethical standards, it became rape the minute he didn't take no for an answer and forced the issue over her resistance. What REALLY disturbs me about the scene is that even though it's fairly violent, eventually Brekke comes around and likes it, message being, "No doesn't really mean no, and if you keep pressing the issue she'll eventually come around." Not that I think anyone's getting their sole sexual education from reading Pern books (heaven help them if they are) but the mentality behind it is very disturbing, especially in a series that purports to presenting strong female characters. Brekke is taken like the heroine in old swashbuckling romance novels, and like a lot of them discovers that, hey, this getting raped thing is actually kind of fun. Did Brekke need to lose her hangups? Yes. Was this the way to do it? Ugh. I would have to say no. If it HADN'T been the man she was pining over, it might have been, moderately, just a little less bad, since part of her problem was that she was going to have to learn to have partners she ISN'T mooning about, but if the rest of the scene were the same...it's still just wrong. Maybe I'm being too modern about it, but it still boils down to "no means yes."

Tai's harder. All the circumstances we see or hear about involved her dragon, meaning unlike Brekke and F'nor there wasn't any option for her--she was going to have sex with someone. Even if they knew about the idea of green-flight stand-ins, she would still have had to have a partner. If what happened to her is "coerced", then every dragon-flight sex is, which, technically, you might say it is, but the coercer is her dragon. The encounter with F'lessan is another flight--again, inevitable, and by not being aware of her dragon's condition (or even that it could happen, other dragons around or not) Tai almost put herself into the position. I think Kath pretty much nailed it--someone really botched it training Tai, and while she's trying, she's understandably stressed. Unfortunately Anne takes the romance-novel way out, pairing her off with a Big Strong Bronze Rider, as it would actually have been pretty interesting to see her learn to deal with it. Maybe we still will, if we're lucky and Golanth remains basically crippled for life. That, or they WILL discover stand-ins.
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Old Nov 30 2004, 12:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

F'nor/Brekke -- definitely a sexual assualt
F'lessan/Tai -- mating flight sex: neither party had much of a choice

Both are good examples of questionable plot devices on Anne's part. Tai's reaction to mating flights shouldn't have happened in the first place. Her Weyrwoman and / or Weyrlingmaster(s) should have given her a good talking to even before she Impressed. And while the riders involved in her flights might have been too lost in the flight to notice her issues with them, you can't tell me that there wasn't someone standing around (waiting to comfort the losers, maybe?) who didn't notice something. With all the greens floating around a Weyr, that sort of training has got to be an important part of a greenrider's lessons. Of course, that problem is what Anne uses to draw the two characters closer together. Makes you wonder what would have happened a Pass earlier when Tai would have been a T'ai -- would we have seen that scene at all? Or would F'lessan's role been played by a bluerider?
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Old Nov 30 2004, 12:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Just rereading that section in dragonquest. Wirenth IS close to mating-a few scenes earlier both Brekke and F'nor realise this. It is forced on her a bit though.
Tai is described as Rape in the book. It is describe as the fault of
A) the male riders that should've behaved differently.
B) Mirrim and I think Talina for not training her properly.

I think its mainly in both cases the difference between weyrs and crafts. Brekke and Tai are both craftbred and have different morals than the weyrbred. Though F'lessan knows that the women have to choose, and fought to control himself.
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Old Nov 30 2004, 07:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Tough calls. Technically, by the definition of the word RAPE, both incounters are.... and so are most mating flight incounters. Freedom of choice is denied or severely limited. HOWEVER...

F'nor acts out of concern for Brekke.... he might have been aware of what Lessa went through when Ramoth rose for the first time (remember, she was a virgin at that point) and was concerned Brekke couldn't handle it as well as Lessa had. Does it make it "right"? Probably not, but it does make it understandable.

Tia's training is serious botched, but I'm not sure we can blame Mirrim or even Talina. Let's face it, at that point, I can only find THREE female greenriders...and they all Impress within a Turn or two of eachother, so who is supposed to guide who there?


Just a historical note: By the modern definition of the word RAPE, how many of you realise that your grandfather/great-grandfathers/ect...most likely raped their mates? Not every female was happy with the marraige her family made for her, but she didn't have a choice.
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Old Nov 30 2004, 09:09 PM   #11
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

To quote AnnMarie...

Snip
Tia's training is serious botched, but I'm not sure we can blame Mirrim or even Talina. Let's face it, at that point, I can only find THREE female greenriders...and they all Impress within a Turn or two of eachother, so who is supposed to guide who there? Snip

What about the Queen riders? Who trains them? Why does it need to be another green rider who trains Mirrim and Tai? Isn't the Weyrwoman supposed to be in charge of training the women (read other Queen riders and if women are now impressing greens shouldn't she train them as well)? Or what about the weyrling master? Isn't some sort of Sex Education a part of the training the male dragon riders? I would assume so.

SOOO if training of this nature was available for the men shouldn't it also be avaiable for the women? Yes. So why wasn't it? Yes I think that Tai's training was lacking but so was Brekke's in a way because I think somewhere along the line someone should have become aware of her inhibitions.

Just my
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Old Nov 30 2004, 09:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kater
To quote AnnMarie...

Snip
Tia's training is serious botched, but I'm not sure we can blame Mirrim or even Talina. Let's face it, at that point, I can only find THREE female greenriders...and they all Impress within a Turn or two of eachother, so who is supposed to guide who there? Snip

What about the Queen riders? Who trains them? Why does it need to be another green rider who trains Mirrim and Tai? Isn't the Weyrwoman supposed to be in charge of training the women (read other Queen riders and if women are now impressing greens shouldn't she train them as well)? Or what about the weyrling master? Isn't some sort of Sex Education a part of the training the male dragon riders? I would assume so.

SOOO if training of this nature was available for the men shouldn't it also be avaiable for the women? Yes. So why wasn't it? Yes I think that Tai's training was lacking but so was Brekke's in a way because I think somewhere along the line someone should have become aware of her inhibitions.

Just my

Because noone knows quite WHAT to do with female Green riders at this point? Talina might have assumed Mirrim or the Wyrling master was seeing to it...they probably both thought it was her job.

And think about it Kater.... Brekke was junior to Kylara. Kylara, actually train someone? Kylara have the sensitivity to realize, let alone DO something about, any potential problems?
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Old Dec 1 2004, 03:12 AM   #13
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Everyone, including Kylara, thought that Brekke was sleeping with T'bor, and given that they're about as much apart in sexual attitudes as it's possible to get, I don't think Kylara had enough sensitivity to be aware of potential problems that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnMarie
Just a historical note: By the modern definition of the word RAPE, how many of you realise that your grandfather/great-grandfathers/ect...most likely raped their mates? Not every female was happy with the marraige her family made for her, but she didn't have a choice.
Until the middle of the 20th century, most people, men and women, questioned the validity of female orgasm, and in some cultures still do. I wouldn't call it rape, certainly coerced sex. Most women living in non-Western cultures still don't have a say in who they marry, or even if they do, the concept of marital rape doesn't exist in their culture. Being married for most women in this world, and certainly on Pern, means that the man is entitled to his "conjugal rights" whenever he feels like it.
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Old Dec 1 2004, 03:52 PM   #14
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Granath makes a good point--even F'nor, until he's already started kissing her, doesn't realize that Brekke isn't sleeping with T'bor. (Apparently, no one asked T'bor about this, though it WOULD be kind of hard to bring it up tactfully.) Apparently everyone assumes that Brekke has figured it out on her own (Kyalra at the very least does) and doesn't seem to think it's an issue. Brekke, meanwhile, never disabuses anyone of this notion. She wouldn't want to talk to Kylara, she apparently doesn't want to talk to Varena/Vanira/whateverhernameis, she doesn't talk to Lessa when she has the chance (she's obviously at Benden at least on occasion.) No one, apparently, thought that it was possible Brekke would have any problems with a rather critical part of a queen rider's duty.

Still--F'nor's reaction isn't to try talking to her about it and finding out, maybe, what she wants, what exactly she's really afraid of, it's to force the issue. Whether she enjoys it or not in the end isn't really the issue. He could have talked to her. He could have taken matters to Lessa or Manora (a mother figure might be more reassuring in that scenario.) Instead, in a scene I have the creepy feeling we're supposed to find romantic, he forces the matter. It's even possible the best thing might have been to let her have her first experience in a flight (certainly worked for Torene, though of course she wasn't worried about it in that sense) rather than set up a false-hope situation with the idea of Canth flying Wirenth. I have no problem with a brown flying a queen, but would that really have been best for Brekke? If as many people argue the evidence in DQ says she was getting into the flight, despite her panicking as it starts, it's possible all she'd have needed was to experience a mating flight and understand that it really is a case of the dragon chosing and the rider sharing in it, not deliberate wanton behavior. I really don't think that F'nor's "solution" was helpful, which eliminates one mitigating circumstance.
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Old Dec 2 2004, 09:48 AM   #15
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Torene chose to wait though, so her dragon could chose without any influence from her.
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Old Dec 2 2004, 08:56 PM   #16
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

F'nor/Brekke--not quite rape but deffinately coerced. I agree with Anarath on the whole 'my no means yes' idea that comes out of this scene. She said no but he talked her into it. This saddly happens to alot of teenage girls now-a-days. And technically it is considered rape because if the girl says no then she says no, anything after that is rape, whether the girl gives in or not. So there's that grey area that Cheryl was talking about. But I believe that it was more coerced sex rather than rape. Plus, F'nor really did have some kind of feelings for Brekke and after the fact when they were just laying together, he did realize that he had made the problem worse because he realized that she had no problem with the sex, it was the issue of having sex with two or more different guys over her life time. So his being a brown rider made it impossible for them to be together 'for ever and ever' as was the mind set that Brekke wished.

F'lessan/Tai--deffinately not rape. Tai hadn't been 'raped' in the sense of the word that we know it because they both willing were together because they were the dragons at the time and the dragons were obviously willing to be together. I think the thing that was upsetting to Tai was the roughness of the men she had been with. They hadn't been gentle or loving as she had thought. And as previously stated this was deffinately not her fault but the fault of the people that trained her, because she did impress from the stands and she probably had no idea about weyr culture or life in the aspect of sex. F'lessan did try his best to be gentle and held back giving into Golanth for a very long time. So I think he did his best to cange her mind and of course it worked because that's what was supposed to happen. Though in real life it probably would have taken many many more times then just that one to change her mind.


But this is really all my
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Old Dec 3 2004, 06:16 AM   #17
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

F'lessan was doing his best to stop it being rape! And struggled to stay human as long as possible. It may be that he's a stronger character than some other riders but surely the riders who raped Tai had some control?
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Old Dec 3 2004, 11:13 AM   #18
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

I wouldn't call any of Tai's experiences rape. Having just reread it--her prior experiences don't sound much more than rough, and that doesn't seem unusual for a mating flight. Just like with F'lessan, the sex was going to happen, there was no out for her or the males involved. F'lessan is nice to try and explain, but pretending there's some choice is a nice fiction. In that situation there simply isn't. The real choice is Tai can chose to relax and enjoy it, or she can grit her teeth and wait for it to be over.
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Old Dec 4 2004, 12:59 AM   #19
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts. As usual, I cannot think of anything else to say except.... I definitely agree that the sex was rough with Tai and F'nor's behavior was definitely bad taste.... I would not call either rape, but definitely coerced.
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Old Dec 13 2004, 06:31 PM   #20
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

just rereading DQ and F'nor realises afterwards he probably shouldnt've done it.
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Old Dec 16 2004, 08:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

F'nor/Brekke - definitely date rape. And really, I went over DQ with a fine-tooth comb while writing my whole interpretation of Brekke's part in DQ, and you know something? F'nor is even more arrogant and condescending than F'lar. He treats Brekke like a child throughout most of the book, he laughs at her ideas, he doesn't take her seriously, then, for her own good, he date-rapes her. It really made me wonder why Brekke really wanted him at all, except that she was infatuated with his looks. Her whole perception of him is based on her first look at him.

I'll tell you, once I got to know him, I would've lost that puppy-love for him toot-sweet!

As for Tai/F'lessan, I was totally confused during the part where F'lessan is telling her to choose him. That's the first and last I've ever seen that in any of the books. But at least Tai went through the flights with her dragon whether she enjoyed them or not! As for rape, no, I don't think any of her previous flights were rape.

Oh, and one more thing that I thought of. Wirenth was out of Ramoth/Mnementh. So, Brekke had to go through her weyrling training at Benden. So it was Lessa who should have discovered her inhibitions! Though she was junior to Kylara, she was most likely placed there by Benden. Kylara and T'bor probably thought they had a fully functional junior queenrider. Kylara thought she was bedding T'bor, and T'bor probably thought she had one or two lovers. After all, Lessa wouldn't send damaged goods now, would she?
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Old Dec 17 2004, 04:31 AM   #22
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

another of Pern's communication problems!


I got the impression that F'nor was more responsible than F'lar in some ways. he only laughed at Brekke until he understood her really. even if its after the sex scene.
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Old Jan 9 2005, 01:31 PM   #23
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

I don't know...I think Tai's previous flights were rape, even though the men weren't conciously doing it... it was their dragons. But still, Tai was against it.
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Old Sep 29 2005, 11:38 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by granath
If by "arrangements" you mean stand-ins, I don't think anyone in a Weyr in the 9th Pass knew of the possiblity. Even if they had known, it wouldn't've been much help, since Tai didn't have a human mate she was emotionally attached to.

Touching on this topic, Lessa was willing enough in her first mating flight, but if dragons weren't involved "it might as well have been called rape"... So although the love story of Lessa and F'lar probably breaks several Weyr records, it certainly didn't start at first or even second sight! Lessa had, after all, been about three Turns at the Weyr by the time Ramoth flew.
I don't think Lessa was entirely willing. I looked through the book again and it looks as though more or less that she was abit confused with the entire thing and the emotions she experienced through Ramoth were probably confusing and hard to stop anyway. She DID say she preferred F'lar's 'company' to that of the other bronzes but I don't think she wanted him like that in the beginning. And I don't remember anyone explaining the whole concept of 'human' involment in a Flight to her. I think she was silly keeping her virginity a secret though.

I do agree with the whole love story not happening at 1st sight but I think the 2nd sight thing kinda happened with F'lar. Anyone remember this part of Dragonflight:
'Once or twice he had caught an unguarded expression on her face; loving and tender. He would give much to have that look turned on him.' I read that part with my little brother and we both went "Awwww"
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Old Sep 29 2005, 11:45 PM   #25
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

[QUOTE=Anareth]Granath makes a good point--even F'nor, until he's already started kissing her, doesn't realize that Brekke isn't sleeping with T'bor. (Apparently, no one asked T'bor about this, though it WOULD be kind of hard to bring it up tactfully.)

That'd be interesting. It'd be like
"How you going T'bor? How's the Weyr and Weyrleadership treating you? Good? Good. Oh and by the way, are you sleeping with Brekke?"

I'm trying to be factious in case anyone don't know...
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Old Sep 29 2005, 11:50 PM   #26
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Red face Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

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I don't think Lessa was entirely willing. I looked through the book again and it looks as though more or less that she was abit confused with the entire thing and the emotions she experienced through Ramoth were probably confusing and hard to stop anyway. She DID say she preferred F'lar's 'company' to that of the other bronzes but I don't think she wanted him like that in the beginning. And I don't remember anyone explaining the whole concept of 'human' involment in a Flight to her. I think she was silly keeping her virginity a secret though.

I do agree with the whole love story not happening at 1st sight but I think the 2nd sight thing kinda happened with F'lar. Anyone remember this part of Dragonflight:
'Once or twice he had caught an unguarded expression on her face; loving and tender. He would give much to have that look turned on him.' I read that part with my little brother and we both went "Awwww"
Just adding to my post before. I think F'lar could have been more sensitive bout the whole issue too.
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Old Mar 4 2006, 09:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

I do not believe F'nor raped Brekke. When they had sex, they were both willing. With Tai.....that's a bit of a finer line. F'lessan says she "chose him"....but, even if she didn't want to sleep with him, she didn't really have a choice in that case....there's a fine line between rape and willing sex when a dragon rises.
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Old Mar 5 2006, 12:33 PM   #28
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Also remember the times when DQ and DF were written, late 60's for the short stories. Our society was only just beginning to change in regards to a woman's sexuality. So when Anne wrote DQ having a scene between F'nor and Brekke, or F'lar and Lessa in DF, was maybe considered 'normal' for writing. In the scene between F'lessan and Tai she was trying to express a 'better' situation. Having F'lessan want Tai to choose him before the dragons mated.
I don't condone the actions that were written but I put them into the context of the times we were living in at the time they were written. In several of Anne's books that were written around that same time frame the female is coerced into sex, Kris in the Freedom series and Nialla in Ring of Fear come to mind.
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Old Mar 5 2006, 05:27 PM   #29
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

I'm leaving the F'nor/Brekke issue alone (it's too creepy for me), I come down frmly in the camp that Tai's mating flight experiences cannot be called rape, unless you can call Zaranth the offender, as it's her sex drive that forces Tai to participate in intercourse with the rider of the winning male. None of the riders have any say in the matter. Don't like the terms, don't be a dragonrider (and given that we've had at least half a dozen Stands Impression in the first twenty or thirty Turns of the Ninth Pass, it's not really good enough to say "I didn't mean to Impress, I was only watching!")

Personally I have a hell of a lot more sympathy with male green riders experiencing their dragons' first flights. At least women have some, er, built-in hydrating functions....
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Old Mar 5 2006, 07:55 PM   #30
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

You know, I still haven't gotten around to posting my own views on this, well over a year after I started the topic! I think that these two situations illustrate quite well that rape is not black/white binary issue.

From F'nor's point of view -- his thoughts about his actions and Brekke's reactions -- I think he did rape her. However from Brekke's point of view, she wasn't raped -- she might think F'nor was forceful, but she's clearly happy with the outcome rather than traumatized as a rape victim would be.

Tai's situation is the opposite to my mind. She clearly did not consent to the sex and was traumatized by her experiences, ergo rape. However the male riders in question had no brutal/forceful intent per se and were acting under the compulsion of their dragons.

In each case, from one party's point of view it meets the criteria for rape, but from the other's it doesn't. So would you call that rape or not? In which case should the "raper" be subject to punishment?
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Old Mar 5 2006, 09:20 PM   #31
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

In F'lessan's case, no. Her dragon was flying - Zaranth had to choose someone, and Golanth conveniently was there. It's better to have Tai have sex with someone she knows...and she ended up liking it with him.
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Old Mar 6 2006, 01:04 AM   #32
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

There's no evidence that rape's a punishable offence on Pern. F'nor acted like a boor, and I really don't understand why Brekke didn't dump him then and there. He had never shown any affection for her, he barely knew her before the incident.

Tai was more violated by the thought of giving in to her dragon's needs than by F'lessan. He did what he could to make the experience pleasant for her, and he certainly didn't intend to hurt her on purpose.
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Old Mar 6 2006, 01:12 AM   #33
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Um.. RSR/Dragonseye... didn't som guys get castrated for rape? or was it just because the women were pregnant already?
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Old Mar 6 2006, 05:38 AM   #34
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

It's been a while since I read Dragonseye, but at that time women on Pern still had some rights, even if they were disappearing (Debera's father's attitude).
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Old Mar 6 2006, 07:06 AM   #35
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Yes, some of the border guards were castrated as punishment: they had raped already pregnant women because they couldn't have been accused of fathering the child. Further more, they were lucky to have commited the crime just before the Pass started, for, as Benden's Lady ( was it Benden?) staterd that a common punishment for rapists was to be staked out during Threadfall.

What does puzzle me is what happened to the men who cleary sexually assaulted some boys. K'vin states that his party arrived just in time to prevent this from happening, but, considering how long it took for news of the situation to get out from Bitra, I'm convinced that this incident wasn't the first to occur.

Back to the main topic: taken from a strict definition, Brekke was raped by F'nor: rape is non consensual, be it by violence, physical coercion, use of alcohol or any other substance to subdue the unwilling party. That, I think, is the critical point: that the unwilling party is made to submit. Rape doesn't have to be violent to be rape, I know this because that's how it happened to me.

There is a big caveat with Brekke, however: she wanted F'nor, but was afraid of the consequences to Wirenth. At some point, she must have realised that not only didn't Wirenth object, she probably actively encouraged her rider to take part: after all, wouldn't she have been aware of Brekke's unrequited feelings for F'nor? At which point, she must have decided to enjoy the experience.

Tai is a different matter, entirely. Certainly, Talina and Mirrim screwed up in training her. Mirrim can at least offer the excuse that, being weyrbred, she probably didn't give mating flights and their effects a second thought, but Talina was hold bred. She'd have had some idea of the kind of inhibitions Tai would have had. So it comes as a surprise to find that female riders aren't given any preflight education.

My fan-fic club clearly had given this issue some thought, for they decided that greenrider weyrling could opt for a closed flight: only the blue, brown and bronze-riding weyrlingmasters were allowed to take part. There was even a story written to give the history behind this option. Even so, I can recall at least one story about the loss of a green dragon in a flight because her rider simply couldn't bring herself to submit to what was happening.


My guess is that Tai was extremely unlucky, to become a green- rider in an era when women riders were in the minority. Though in a situation that was most definitely rape, she was still given a choice: F'lessan pleaded with her to choose to willingly participate, which she did.

I'd hate to have to be a barrister bringing a Dragorider rape case to trial, though. Are the accused really criminal? They have very little control over events, after all. At what point do you say' yes, he has commited the crime of rape'? A male rider has to take some responsibility for his actions, but, how much?

I started out claiming that rape is rape, regardless. Now I'm not so sure. Well, in Pern, it is definitely murky grey: the men in Real Life have no such excuse.
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Old Mar 6 2006, 12:25 PM   #36
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

I was pondering this earlier and thinking about it the bit with F'nor is v out of character!
just struck me on my way to lab
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Old Mar 7 2006, 01:36 AM   #37
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

It's only comparatively recently that it's become acceptable for women to be active initiators to sex. Probably most our grandmothers would have had to show at least a token resistance, even when they really wanted it. Especially if it was pre-nuptial sex (as far as I know both my grandmothers were virgin when they married in the early 1940s). You can't really blame the men for not taking no for an answer, when no doesn't mean no to the woman. Men are rather simple-minded creatures when it comes to sex, so it's best if women learn to send unambiguous signals, or they have themselves partly to blame. That doesn't excuse rape, of course, but it may help to explain it to some extent.
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Old Mar 7 2006, 04:40 AM   #38
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

The trouble is that some men won't take no for an answer, even if 'no' really means 'NO!'

It gets to the point where you simply say 'yes' to get it over and done with: I've never had much success in getting a man to stop in mid stride, as it were, even if in theory and by law, I have the right to change my mind at any time. That's the crux of the matter, I think: there comes a point when a man can't stop, or finds it almost impossible, even if you've decided you want to. That calls for almost inhuman self control, and no-one has that!
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Old Mar 7 2006, 07:47 AM   #39
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Indeed. The woman has responsibility too. I don't think it's fair for a woman to play around until the guy's going nuts (literally), and then petulantly change her mind in the middle because she doesn't feel like it after all. A woman should know herself well enough to say no before things go that far. I'm afraid I'm not very sympathetic towards dick-teasers. Technically saying no after saying yes may be rape, but in my book it's not the same as saying no from the start.
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Old Mar 8 2006, 03:56 AM   #40
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Default Re: Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex

Warning- The following post is fairly graphic!

I agree, but I'm no dickteaser. I've had at least one experience where my lover got far too rough with me and there really wasn't much I could do about it but grit my teeth and endure, hoping he'd finish up pretty quick. I got torn up pretty badly by the fellow, too.

On the other hand, at the risk of being howled down, I agree with granath: I know of girls and women at night clubs, dressed provocatively, who really lead the men on, but as soon as anyone tries to take things further he gets a door slammed in his face, metaphorically. Now, most of the guys are pretty drunk, and when they're that far gone, being told 'NO' doesn't register. It might be fun to play power games with a man, but it's a dangerous game to play, especialyy if he is bigger and heavier than you, in an amourous frame of mind, and your 'NO' probably won't hit him until the middle of next week...
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