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Old Mar 4 2008, 11:20 PM   #1
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Unhappy Discussion of the death of C'jun

[This post has been edited as a new thread was created from another one]

This thread may be used to discuss the details of the death of C'jun. Please try to remain respectful of others.

For reference, the news story of his death can be found here.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 01:40 PM   #2
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Yeah, although the manner of his death wasn't at all edifying. He shot his ex-girlfriend and a couple of days later when the cops came for him, he offed himself. Go to AMCF or BPOI (if you're a member, it's in the members only forum) for the details if you wish.

I'm so sad for his family, and for his ex's family, but I'm afraid my sympathy for him as a cold-blooded killer is pretty much zero. If he had mental problems, I'm only sorry he didn't get the help that could have prevented this tragedy.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 02:27 PM   #3
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Yeah, although the manner of his death wasn't at all edifying. He shot his ex-girlfriend and a couple of days later when the cops came for him, he offed himself. Go to AMCF or BPOI (if you're a member, it's in the members only forum) for the details if you wish.
Jesus CHRIST, granath, be a little more cold-blooded, would you? "Offed himself"?
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Old Mar 5 2008, 02:41 PM   #4
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Christ Granath. You are the about the worst. Jesus. How about a little consideration for the fact that this man had FRIENDS? Do you HAVE to be hateful?
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Old Mar 5 2008, 02:47 PM   #5
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Default Re: Sad news of an original KT member

I didn't know the person in question, and part of me is wary of stepping in and turning this Thread into something it isn't for, but I think that granath makes a valid point.

Any death is traumatic for any family and friends. But occasionally there are other facts and issues at hand which may affect the way a person further out may view things. I would think that it is those other facts that coloured granath's repsonse.

Ummm. Like I said, I don't want to turn this Thread into something that it isn't for. I hope that nobody finds this post unacceptable.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 02:50 PM   #6
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I didn't know the person in question--
Right. You didn't.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 03:08 PM   #7
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Sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't post out of hate. I just think that mourning a killer is sick. Mourning a lost friend who went insane is another matter entirely.

We all grieve in different ways, some knew him well, some less so, but it's still shocking to most people when someone they knew, even slightly, commits murder followed by suicide.

Maybe I was wrong in wanting to stop people expressing sympathy or condolences without knowing what happened? If a member dies accidentally or naturally it's one thing, but don't you think this is just a bit different?
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Old Mar 5 2008, 03:16 PM   #8
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Granath, I find the phrasing of your remarks to be in incredibly poor taste. The manner of his death does not negate his life or make worthless the friendships he had.

Your choice of words, whether meant to be deliberately offensive or just callously thoughtless, is not appreciated. I strongly suggest that you consider editing your remarks to be in line with the board policy of being respectful. His closer friends are grieving him now, and even if you have no respect for him, I will insist that you owe them the respect to mourn in peace.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 03:17 PM   #9
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Sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't post out of hate. I just think that mourning a killer is sick.
No one's mourning a killer, genius. No one's condoning his final horrifying action. We're mourning our friend, who was not a killer, but a drinking buddy and a shoulder to lean on and a good man with a good son. Part of mourning our friend is expressing outrage at anyone who callously refers to his suicide as "offing himself," as if he did the world a favor.

I mean, really: does a single act, even one so heinous, mitigate the entire rest of a lifetime to you? What if we were talking about your father, or your brother, or your best friend? Would it be so easy for you to dismiss that any of those men as a cold-blooded murderer, or might you take umbrage at the flippancy of any random Internet stranger who presumed to know the sum total of that person's character?

The man was ill. And while that hardly excuses his gross misjudgment, it does merit consideration: given the Jason we knew, the real and harmless Jason, it could only have been an excruciating, insidious sickness to make him commit this atrocity. That's the tragedy, and that's why we're "mourning a killer."

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Old Mar 5 2008, 03:20 PM   #10
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Maybe I was wrong in wanting to stop people expressing sympathy or condolences without knowing what happened? If a member dies accidentally or naturally it's one thing, but don't you think this is just a bit different?
I think it's only relevant information to those who knew him well. Those who didn't, don't know enough to judge whether his actions were born of malice or insanity, and they don't really have a place making that judgement in the midst of mourners.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 03:37 PM   #11
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We all react to shock in different ways. I didn't know him well enough to truly mourn him, but I did know he had some pretty serious mental problems.

I do hope that's what caused his actions, because the possibility of him acting out of malice is just too much to contemplate for me. I can't imagine how that would feel for those who really cared for him.

Cavatica, call me cold if you wish, but if someone commits murder, that pretty much negates everything they did before. I just really hope I don't ever have to face contemplating any of my nearest and dearest in that light.

I do apologize for my unfortunate choice of words, "offing himself" was inappropriate.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 03:49 PM   #12
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Cavatica, call me cold if you wish, but if someone commits murder, that pretty much negates everything they did before.
It's not "cold" so much as cravenly ignorant.

And I'll admit my hypocrisy here: I'm generally the worst kind of judgmental, and am happy to lock up murderers and rapists sight unseen. I'm probably one of a dozen liberals in the country who doesn't mind paying the State to kill capital offenders, and I generally don't make too much of an effort to empathize with alleged criminals.

But I did know this guy, and I know that this guy really did have countless redeeming qualities, which is specifically why this whole thing is so very shocking.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 03:50 PM   #13
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I'm not mourning a killer. I'm morning a friend. It's true that I haven't been as close to him as some other people but I enjoyed the chats I had with him and this event does not change that. I wish he could have got help before he came to this, but he didn't. It's a tragedy for everyone, him included.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 04:01 PM   #14
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Sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't post out of hate. I just think that mourning a killer is sick. Mourning a lost friend who went insane is another matter entirely.

We all grieve in different ways, some knew him well, some less so, but it's still shocking to most people when someone they knew, even slightly, commits murder followed by suicide.

Maybe I was wrong in wanting to stop people expressing sympathy or condolences without knowing what happened? If a member dies accidentally or naturally it's one thing, but don't you think this is just a bit different?


Maybe it is sick granath, but it's probably even harder for his family. Not knowing whether to be angry or mourn, to forgive or not. I know. Sure I didn't know C'jun, but I've been in that sort of situation. Though admittedly the shooting was unsuccessful and he shot himself without knowing that, because of what he thought he did. Am not going into details in this thread, but if you really must know, pm me.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 04:14 PM   #15
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Maybe it is sick granath, but it's probably even harder for his family. Not knowing whether to be angry or mourn, to forgive or not. I know. Sure I didn't know C'jun, but I've been in that sort of situation. Though admittedly the shooting was unsuccessful and he shot himself without knowing that, because of what he thought he did. Am not going into details in this thread, but if you really must know, pm me.
What do you mean, the shooting was unsuccessful? She's definitely dead.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 04:15 PM   #16
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We all react to shock in different ways. I didn't know him well enough to truly mourn him, but I did know he had some pretty serious mental problems.

I do hope that's what caused his actions, because the possibility of him acting out of malice is just too much to contemplate for me. I can't imagine how that would feel for those who really cared for him.

Cavatica, call me cold if you wish, but if someone commits murder, that pretty much negates everything they did before. I just really hope I don't ever have to face contemplating any of my nearest and dearest in that light.

I do apologize for my unfortunate choice of words, "offing himself" was inappropriate.
Your comments have been hateful and hurtful. You seem to be wallowing in it.

Please just stop.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 04:37 PM   #17
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What do you mean, the shooting was unsuccessful? She's definitely dead.
I'm assuming (and therefore potentially make an ass of myself, as the saying goes), that Tresa was referring to the similar situation she's been in before, and not C'jun's.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 05:20 PM   #18
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We all react to shock in different ways. I didn't know him well enough to truly mourn him, but I did know he had some pretty serious mental problems.

I do hope that's what caused his actions, because the possibility of him acting out of malice is just too much to contemplate for me. I can't imagine how that would feel for those who really cared for him.

Cavatica, call me cold if you wish, but if someone commits murder, that pretty much negates everything they did before. I just really hope I don't ever have to face contemplating any of my nearest and dearest in that light.

I do apologize for my unfortunate choice of words, "offing himself" was inappropriate.
Firstly, thank you for the apology.

Secondly, you're right that everyone reacts to shock in different ways. I didn't know him that well either, but once upon a time counted him as friend. My main reaction is to be protective of the grieving space of those who did know him well, as they need and deserve it.

I respect that you disagree, but will reiterate my strong belief that the final act(s) of a person do not and cannot and negate the rest of their life. A life of good is not negated by a final horrible act, just as a life of evil is not negated by a final act of contrition.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 08:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: Discussion of the death of C'jun

To all that have tears in their eyes. I've not been around long enough to know anyone well, let alone C'jun, however, I would like to send out my condolences. i have not been in any situations like this particular one but I have lost friends and family suddenly and know what sort of shock this can be.
Just by the words I've read I can see that C'jun must have been a decent fellow. Many things can change a persons character rapidly, sometimes to quickly for it to be helped. Without being in his head and living his life there is no way for us to be certain of what/{why things} happened.

Granath.......I'm not a mother or even a big sister so I feel awkward writing this but my mother once told me something that I think was very wise. If to tell your opinions will hurt others but bring no resolution to anyone but yourself then are you truly being any better than a criminal? Not only are you being selfish but you are also hurting those around you.

Now, don't be angry, or at least not too angry. Personally I was pissed but the more I thought about it the more I realized that she had been right. When I was younger I had an unhappy encounter with my uncle. He then passed away when he was 18yrs old. If I had told my grandmother about the way her son had behaved it would have destroyed her.

It's hard having opinions that you want to get out but sometimes I've found that picking who you share your opinions with a bit more selectively tends to work out for the better.

Again, my condolences.
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Old Mar 5 2008, 08:51 PM   #20
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What do you mean, the shooting was unsuccessful? She's definitely dead.

I meant the one I witnessed. Sorry that wasn't clear enough for you. Trying again: Someone I knew shot at his wife, who escaped. He thought he had killed her, and killed himself minutes later, though she was actually alive.
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Old Mar 6 2008, 12:06 AM   #21
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Sometimes an act does negate everything that came before. For me, this is one of those times.

Not arguing the point here. But it is what it is.
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Old Mar 6 2008, 12:20 AM   #22
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Thanks Anareth. I was beginning to feel a bit lonely here.

If I was a mother, I think I would rather know my son had committed a gruesome act than not know, but your point is well taken.
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Old Mar 6 2008, 02:53 AM   #23
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In this case I agree with Anareth.

If he had been a friend of mine, which he certainly wasn't, I would have distanced myself from everything he had done and shared with me. By doing this he shamed his erstwhile friendship to all people he saw as or called his friends.

I wonder, was his current girlfriend someone we also know?
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Old Mar 6 2008, 09:10 AM   #24
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I wonder, was his current girlfriend someone we also know?
Some of us met her at Dragon*Con, yes.

I think it's interesting that the only people condemning the sum total of his character are those of you who never actually met the guy.
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Old Mar 6 2008, 12:18 PM   #25
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I would hate to think that 1 act would define every thing about me. One act should not define anyone. Yes he did a terible thing. I am not dening that. It is impossible to know what was going on when he did it. That is not all that he was. No, I did not know him.
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Old Mar 6 2008, 02:26 PM   #26
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I did not know him, but I am not condemning him. It is because I did not know him that I would not judge him. I am sure there were many things good about him that we (those that did not know him) never got to know. And without knowing someone it is not fair to pass judgment on them. If you, Cavatica, say he had many good qualities, then I will take your word for that.
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Old Mar 6 2008, 03:42 PM   #27
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"The good that men do is oft interrred with their bones. The evil lives after them."
Probably badly paraphrased, but some of us seem to be proving Antony's point. Let's remember the good and not let it get buried.
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Old Mar 6 2008, 04:36 PM   #28
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Default Re: Discussion of the death of C'jun

I didn't know him well in real life, but like many others I knew him online.

Has anyone been in touch with Szara? I know her relationship with C'jun didn't work out the way they'd both hoped, but at this time maybe a supportive word would be welcome?
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Old Mar 6 2008, 06:22 PM   #29
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I think it's interesting that the only people condemning the sum total of his character are those of you who never actually met the guy.

The sum total of the character of the people condemning this man is...zero.

To post such hateful, hurtful things when people are grieving.

Do you lot go to funerals and wakes and say such things to people? Or is it just the safety of a relatively annonymous internet?

Should be ashamed of yourselves.
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Old Mar 6 2008, 08:02 PM   #30
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JJMouse -- I find it to be...highly uncharitable of them, but it is a valid reaction.

Because I don't share that reaction, in my mind I'm dismissing it as a coping mechanism for having slightly known someone who could do something so horrific. Because he was just an acquaintenance at best, it can be easier to simply dismiss the whole man rather than to try to understand or empathize with the torment he must have been in to have done something heinous.

I don't believe in lumping someone who committed a final horrific act after a lifetime of good in with those who commit multiple acts of evil over a lifetime. I'm not in any way saying that, should he have lived, that he should not have faced punishment for that act. He should have. But to reduce any man's life to a black or white judgement of good or bad is... retardedly inaccurate and over-simplified, in my opinion. Surely as adults we are aware of a whole spectrum of grey existing in between the stark white and black.


For those that are curious...
I almost didn't post about C'jun's death at all on this forum, because I knew that most who had known him would already have learned of it elsewhere. Most of our members are relatively new to online fandom, and those that date back to the olden days are almost all members elsewhere. But I did post on the off chance someone who would care wouldn't find out elsewhere.

I debated also about elaborating how he died, but again I knew that those who actually really counted him friend had already learned the details. For any one else... I judged it not relevant, which may have been a wrong decision, but was the one I made.

I hope Cavatica won't mind if I paraphrase something she eloquently wrote elsewhere: A man died. Then he killed someone. Then he died again.

I mourn the first death and offer condolences to his family and friends for it, irrespective of what came after.
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Old Mar 6 2008, 11:45 PM   #31
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I think that all of this affair is heartbreakingly sad...I am extremely saddended for the mans family, and friends...and give my condolences to them all.

I don't think any of us here should judge anyone else...not unless you were there in his tortured mind with him on that terrible day...no one knows what happened to him to cause all of this tragedy...and now only his loved ones are left to hopefully remember better days and happier times.
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Old Mar 7 2008, 12:10 AM   #32
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Default Re: Discussion of the death of C'jun

Several years have passed since I had any contact with C'jun and I can't claim to know anything about the turns his life had taken in all that time. Sometimes I find myself thinking about the old times in the OKT which was my first experience with joining an internet forum. Invariably when I thought about the OKT he was one of the people I thought about. I remember him as more friendly than some and usually quick with a joke or comment to make people laugh.

From my years working at a police department I know that things like this have an effect on everyone who learns about them and for people who have even the slightest connection with any of the people involved the effects are compounded. Shock, horror, anger, pity, grief; these emotions get all mixed up as we try to deal with the situation. I remember an instance in which the distraught sister of a teenager who had died in an unfortunate circumstance said she wished she could "wake him up" just long enough to cuss him out for what he had done to his family.

There are no words that can make this easier to deal with. The stark reality is there, hitting us in the face whenever we try to make some sort of sense out of it. One of the most painful aspects of all of this is that none of us will ever be able to remember anything about him without also remembering this.
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Old Mar 7 2008, 12:27 AM   #33
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Default Re: Discussion of the death of C'jun

C'jun's brother posted in the C'jun thread at AMCF.
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Old Mar 7 2008, 10:50 AM   #34
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Default Re: Discussion of the death of C'jun

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheryl View Post
JJMouse -- I find it to be...highly uncharitable of them, but it is a valid reaction.
Indeed, and while I don't share that reaction, I can understand why some people would hold it. What I don't understand is how someone who is unwilling to mourn the man himself can also give the appearance of being unwilling to feel anything on behalf of the friends and family left behind. If the final act changes your opinion of the man that much, so be it. He's gone now. But there are still people left behind who DO mourn, and are suffering through a horrible burden of pain, shock and confused emotions.

The least ANY of us can do is to feel for them, and offer our condolences on that score alone.

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I hope Cavatica won't mind if I paraphrase something she eloquently wrote elsewhere: A man died. Then he killed someone. Then he died again.
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Old Mar 7 2008, 11:03 AM   #35
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She said it beautifully, didn't she?
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Old Mar 7 2008, 12:26 PM   #36
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I mean, you made the tragedy of the whole situation clear, in a way that explains in one line what so many people are grieving for.
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Old Mar 7 2008, 12:39 PM   #37
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Default Re: Discussion of the death of C'jun

Indeed. And I do feel for the families of both, but particularly his murdered ex-girlfriend. I still consider it murder, even if he did it while he was seriously depressed.

If he had only killed himself in a fit of depression, I don't think this furore would have boiled up. Certainly my feelings would have been less conflicted.

Cavatica really did put it very eloquently, better than I ever could.
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Old Mar 7 2008, 07:04 PM   #38
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There was a program on Bi-polar disorder a year ago now with Stephen Fry, who suffers very badly from it (off the scale) and it was triggered while they were filming and he went from being frank, smiling and funny to hating himself. It was quite a striking example of how horrible that illness is.
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Old Mar 7 2008, 07:11 PM   #39
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Default Re: Discussion of the death of C'jun

This is a copy of a post made by C'juns brother on the KT site. I did e-mail him asked his permission to post it here.


Hi
I am C'juns Younger brother and am truly grateful for your Condolences for his Family

Although he lost his way in some ways he still touched so many people .
For those who care to know more ,He was diagnosed Bi-Polar 8 years ago.
So if anything you wish to do Please in His and the family name donate to The Research of a Bi-Polar cure .
But please do not forget and please respect all the grieving families involved .
No one ever knows until a loved one passes ,of the true demons in ones Life .

He is truly missed by his son ,Family and friends .

Carl
Director
North shore Harley Owners Group Chapter
Slidell, La.

Ps: as you can see we both love being on 2 wheels and for all Bikers
There is nothing better in life than 2 wheels and all the friends we touch along the path of our lives .
Me and Jason never rode the Georgia Mountains together but through your eyes .
We will ride the mountains Forever.

And I promise when I come back to ride in those mountains ,I asked that we ride together for His Name .
This Journey was set in action by his actions and if all goes to plan i will end my journey with my brother the week of June 16th .
The family will have a private service in Lake Charles ,la on March 22nd.


To all in this arena Thank You

I am finding that so many knew him though different forums and clubs .

Does anyone know what happened to his Cat ?
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Old Mar 8 2008, 01:08 AM   #40
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Default Re: Discussion of the death of C'jun

DAMN!!!

I only knew C'jun on and off from BPOI. While I had little contact I had with him, I find it both sad and shocking to hear this news. My sympathies from me to his friends and family on such a heart wrenching tragedy.
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