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Old Nov 16 2006, 09:31 PM   #1
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Question Question - abt death

When a dragon-person dies their dragon disappears between right? I was just rereading dragonflight where Jora's dead, but Nemorth was close to death when the eggs were about to hatch? just a bit confused
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Old Nov 17 2006, 02:02 AM   #2
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Default Re: Question - abt death

There are lots of confusing things in Weyr Search, the original short story that became the first part of DF when Anne decided there was more to Pern than just one story. When she wrote Nemorth's death, she hadn't yet decided that dragons go between to die.
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Old Nov 17 2006, 07:16 AM   #3
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Don't forget though, it's difficult to get over that motherly instinct - Nemorth may have stayed for the eggs, like Moreta's Orlith and Leri after Moreta and Holth died.
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Old Nov 17 2006, 07:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Yes, a dragon will always live just long enough to see her clutch to hatching, but didn't Nemorth just die on the sands rather than going between?
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Old Nov 17 2006, 10:32 AM   #5
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Default Re: Question - abt death

did Nemorth know how to go Between? or had she enough energy to make the effort?
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Old Nov 18 2006, 03:34 PM   #6
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Default Re: Question - abt death

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Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff View Post
Yes, a dragon will always live just long enough to see her clutch to hatching, but didn't Nemorth just die on the sands rather than going between?
Yeah, I certainly read it as Nemorth dropping dead on the sands: Just beyond the golden egg lay the motionless ocher hulk of the old queen.
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did Nemorth know how to go Between? or had she enough energy to make the effort?
I’d imagine that going between would be instinctive. Certainly no one told Duluth how to do it.

If you accept Todd’s version of Pern, dragons can expire without going between. Even if you don’t accept Todd’s version, there’re a couple conflicting references in SoP:

Wyzall laments the lack of knowledge about dragon anatomy:
Quote:
From The Skies of Pern
There’s considerably more available about every other animal on this planet,” Wyzall said after a long afternoon’s study with Beastmaster Ballora; his best animal healer, Persellan; and Tai, “than about the ones we’re most dependent on.” He pushed back from the table, rubbing his face to ease fatigue.

“That’s because we have had bodies of every other animal to dissect for study,” Ballora remarked.
Yet after the felines attack, Tai wonders about the possibility of a dragon not going between to die:
Quote:
She dropped to her knees, bereft with the realization, staring at the green ichor staining Golanth’s body. He was still swaying with the impact, his left eye oozing a green mixed with red beast blood. Yet he wasn’t falling. Did a dragon fall down dead? Too shocked in that moment to go between?
Hardly conclusive, I know, but it struck me as odd that a dragonrider would even consider the possibility.

Oh, and in addition to Nemorth, Anne also wrote about the dragon and rider entombed in solid rock in part 3 of DF. And not quite a dragon, but Zair also died without going between.
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Old Nov 18 2006, 05:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: Question - abt death

You mean the part about them not dieing between, or the fact that their bodies remained? I'm guessing the pair either couldn't be removed from the rock or no one wanted to. Certainly would serve as a warning to Weyrlings.
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Old Nov 18 2006, 05:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith View Post
did Nemorth know how to go Between? or had she enough energy to make the effort?
Nemorth was still alive.

DF online:

Quote:
"Nemorth has laid a golden egg," F'lar continued persuasively. "She is close to death. This time we must have a strong Weyrwoman."
Quote:
"The others are recalled," F'nor continued. "Nemorth is all but rigid in death." Then he could no longer contain himself. "S'lel brought in two. R'gul has five. Strong-willed, they say, and pretty."
Quote:
"Nemorth is nearly rigid," he was saying as he took supplies from another drapery-hidden shelf, "and the Hatching will soon begin, anyhow."

MHoP on.:

Quote:
Nemorth'll last?" Tuck's expression was anxious.
"Probably. At least, that's my reading of queen dragon behaviour. Even without her rider, Nemorth will try to last until her clutch hatches."
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Old Nov 18 2006, 07:41 PM   #9
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Default Re: Question - abt death

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Originally Posted by Chimaerrha View Post
Nemorth was still alive.

DF online:

"The others are recalled," F'nor continued. "Nemorth is all but rigid in death." Then he could no longer contain himself. "S'lel brought in two. R'gul has five. Strong-willed, they say, and pretty."
Fascinating. I interpret that line, all but rigid in death to mean that Nemorth was dead, and she was nearly rigid, as in rigor mortis was setting in. How can you interpret that same line to mean she was alive?
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Old Nov 18 2006, 08:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: Question - abt death

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Yeah, I certainly read it as Nemorth dropping dead on the sands: Just beyond the golden egg lay the motionless ocher hulk of the old queen. I’d imagine that going between would be instinctive. Certainly no one told Duluth how to do it.



Oh, and in addition to Nemorth, Anne also wrote about the dragon and rider entombed in solid rock in part 3 of DF. And not quite a dragon, but Zair also died without going between.
I think it would be instinctive as well. But even though Jora was terrified of heights, she must have had SOME weyrling training? They must have at least learned the basics of betweening. But regardless, I think that instance was just a whoopsie due to incomplete world-building.

In the case of the stone-entombed dragon and rider, that's definitely an exception to the rule. If a dragon has any consciousness through extensive injury, it will go between to die. But being crushed in rock would be an instantaneous death, it wouldn't have a chance to go between. Most other injuries for a creature so large aren't so quick, and leaves it some time to make a choice, even the worst Threadscore can't cause instant death.
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Old Nov 18 2006, 09:36 PM   #11
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Default Re: Question - abt death

To be entombed in rock, and dragon would have to come OUT of between into it. And no creature, however strong it's instincts, could overcome such a problem. It's rider would be killed as quick as the dragon - neither would have the time to do anything.

With Nemorth not going between, that can be oput down to incomplete world-building, but also since Nemorth was not mentioned afterwards as a corpse being disposed of (and references in later books to no dragon bodies) I think we can put it down to a lack of world building any the furour of a Hatching being the cover in which Nemorth went between. The dragons would find it hard to mourn the loss of an old queen at the birth of a new one - and so many other dragons, especially sicne the rarity (at that time) of Hatchings.
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Old Nov 18 2006, 11:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Question - abt death

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Fascinating. I interpret that line, all but rigid in death to mean that Nemorth was dead, and she was nearly rigid, as in rigor mortis was setting in. How can you interpret that same line to mean she was alive?
I interpreted it as that she was "all but dead," meaning that "rigid in death" was that she was almost dead. Rigor mortis sets it pretty soon after death, so Nemorth would have had to be dead only a little while before F'lar said that...
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Old Nov 18 2006, 11:20 PM   #13
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Default Re: Question - abt death

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To be entombed in rock, and dragon would have to come OUT of between into it. And no creature, however strong it's instincts, could overcome such a problem. It's rider would be killed as quick as the dragon - neither would have the time to do anything.

With Nemorth not going between, that can be oput down to incomplete world-building, but also since Nemorth was not mentioned afterwards as a corpse being disposed of (and references in later books to no dragon bodies) I think we can put it down to a lack of world building any the furour of a Hatching being the cover in which Nemorth went between. The dragons would find it hard to mourn the loss of an old queen at the birth of a new one - and so many other dragons, especially sicne the rarity (at that time) of Hatchings.
In "Moreta," they still mourn Orlith and Holth, but that is a special circumstance.
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Old Nov 19 2006, 12:38 AM   #14
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Orlith went between that morning, not right when they hatched. So the dragons didn't mourn during the hatching.
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Old Nov 19 2006, 12:50 PM   #15
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Default Re: Question - abt death

I always read the bit, about the young dragon and rider entombed in rock, with a very large pinch of salt. If two bodies of matter (both the rock and the two members of the animal phyla) try to occupy the same "space" there would be one almighty explosion. Wouldn't there Kath?
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Old Nov 20 2006, 04:32 AM   #16
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Not necessarily. Just going between violates all the laws of thermodynamics as we know them.
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Old Nov 20 2006, 05:43 AM   #17
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Default Re: Question - abt death

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I always read the bit, about the young dragon and rider entombed in rock, with a very large pinch of salt. If two bodies of matter (both the rock and the two members of the animal phyla) try to occupy the same "space" there would be one almighty explosion. Wouldn't there Kath?
The displacement of the rock would instantly crush the bodies as well as cause the rock to crack and burst outwards, yes. Not exactly an explosion, but imagine the effect of inflating a balloon inside a bed of dried mud. I don't know if this is scientifically possible, since you can't exactly make something appear in solid rock to test it, but that's how I imagined it. A dragon couldn't just appear in rock and become perfectly preserved like a dinosaur fossil. It would definitely be crushed.
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Old Nov 20 2006, 07:27 AM   #18
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Unless, of course, if a volume of between equal to the volume of the dragon gets transferred into the space previously occupied by the dragon when entering between. And a dragon-sized volume of air (or rock) gets transferred between when the dragon exits between.
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Old Nov 20 2006, 07:52 AM   #19
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Hey, there's a theory!
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Old Nov 20 2006, 03:02 PM   #20
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Default Re: Question - abt death

In that case I would expect the space in the rock to be spherical.
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Old Nov 20 2006, 04:35 PM   #21
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Why? I wouldn't think that they'd just suck a spherical bubble of the surrounding air/other material into between, but only the space which the body would displace. So assuming this theory is correct, there would just be a dragon-shaped hunk of stone floating through between somewhere.

However, I can see one flaw in this - this would leave them perfectly preserved, with no damage whatsoever. With no injury, and only rock confining them, what would keep them from slipping back between to come above ground? Panic may cause faulty visualization and they could die between, but surely they would still instinctively go back out again while they still had breath in their lungs, before they suffocate in the tomb. Then again, the forward momentum of coming out of between may either kill them or render them unconscious though...
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Old Nov 20 2006, 05:32 PM   #22
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Yeah, I thought of that, too. There's still some debate as to whether or not dragons can go between while in contact with the ground. Certainly Lord Meron's fire-lizard was unable to go between while he was restraining it.

Still sounds like a horrible way to die.
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Old Nov 20 2006, 07:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Awhile ago I thought that they were physically unable to go between from the ground, otherwise they would be taking the ground with it. But it seems like the reason they have to get into flight first is to gain some forward momentum to keep them flying once they re-appear, otherwise, if they went between from the ground and appeared a dozen lengths in the air, they would just plummet to the ground. It's probable that they have some sort of control over what goes with them in between.

But in a desperate life-or-death situation, I imagine that (if they were still intact and managed to visualize clearly enough) they could appear a few meters off the ground and drop.
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Old Nov 22 2006, 04:56 PM   #24
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Is between actually a place? Just wondering
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Old Nov 22 2006, 05:01 PM   #25
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Default Re: Question - abt death

I think of it more like a different dimension, it doesn't really follow our rules of time and space.
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Old Nov 22 2006, 05:43 PM   #26
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Default Re: Question - abt death

I think Nemorth, who I think was described as obese much like Jora, simply died on the sands. I picture her not having the energy to spring up off the ground and pop between.
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Old Nov 23 2006, 07:20 AM   #27
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Default Re: Question - abt death

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I think Nemorth, who I think was described as obese much like Jora, simply died on the sands. I picture her not having the energy to spring up off the ground and pop between.
Agreed, and I think the Bronzes would have taken her Between afterwards. Doesn't Felessan tell Jaxom the Bronzes do that with unhatched eggs?
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Old Nov 23 2006, 06:06 PM   #28
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Even with TK, would they have been able to lift her??
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Old Nov 23 2006, 06:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Question - abt death

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I think it would be instinctive as well. But even though Jora was terrified of heights, she must have had SOME weyrling training? They must have at least learned the basics of betweening. But regardless, I think that instance was just a whoopsie due to incomplete world-building.
Maybe not. Lessa didn't receive any Weyrling training. I seem to remember reading that she watched the Weyrlings train, and complained that her training consisted of copying Harper's songs.
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Old Nov 23 2006, 06:46 PM   #30
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Anne has admitted that she "forgot" that she'd left Nemorth dead on the hatching sands
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Old Nov 25 2006, 09:47 PM   #31
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Rigor does not set in quickly after death (assuming dragons follow the same rules of decomposition as bodies on Earth.) Especially in a warm environment, it would take several hours (and rigor then ends, too--eventually the body goes flaccid again.)

And I agree with Shalyn--I doubt very much Jora recieved any training in betweening beyond being told it was something other dragons do. With only one queen, would they have risked her at all for something she didn't really need to do? They don't even think queens should fly much, let alone do something as dangerous as betweening.
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Old Nov 26 2006, 09:19 AM   #32
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Default Re: Question - abt death

Jora wasn't the only queenrider when she Impressed, Weyrwoman Carola was around for 5 years after that, until she died. I don't know if we're told/shown whether Carola rides and betweens, but I always had the strong impression that it was just Jora who refused to fly with her dragon due to her fear of heights and inner ear issues, and therefore couldn't/wouldn't be trained in betweening. And then R'gul took advantage of that fact and that few remembered queens flying/betweening (which was 35 turns prior) and refused to teach Lessa as a protective measure.
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Old Nov 29 2006, 10:35 PM   #33
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Jora wasn't the only queenrider when she Impressed, Weyrwoman Carola was around for 5 years after that, until she died. I don't know if we're told/shown whether Carola rides and betweens, but I always had the strong impression that it was just Jora who refused to fly with her dragon due to her fear of heights and inner ear issues, and therefore couldn't/wouldn't be trained in betweening. And then R'gul took advantage of that fact and that few remembered queens flying/betweening (which was 35 turns prior) and refused to teach Lessa as a protective measure.
I agree, Cheryl: there's no evidence that Feyrith doesn't fly between.

Dragons here have just gone "between," and Feyrith settles down: I think that implies that she did.

MHoP on.:

Quote:
Robinton watched with awe as the great beasts, having deposited riders and burdens in the courtyard, rose to the top of Benden's cliff, spacing themselves along the fire heights. The golden queen, Feyrith, settled in the exact centre, the other ten dragons, including her weyrmate, settled on either side of her, like guardians. Which was silly, because there wasn't anything on the entire planet that would attack a queen, much less eleven dragons.
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