Pernese versus Terran terms

[Chimaerrha]

Originally Posted by Shalyn

I don't understand that last one. "Two were playing that game"? I don't understand how it's Pernese vs. Terran.

Well, it's not really, but I wasn't sure if it was just a random Earth saying Anne put in or not.

[Shalyn]

Ah. I've got you.

Just not sure if it belongs or not, since the meaning is the same either way.

[Hans]

It belongs on the webpage I gave, not in this list.

[S'ra]

How about sheets for paper just found it in RoP chapter 7. I think they also call it pressed leaves and/or Benelek's leaves in WD & DS.

[Hans]

Hmm, I need to reread/research. Aren't sheets and leaves names we used too and didn't the Pernese revert to calling the pulp leaves (?) paper after Aivas told them the name?

Not dismissing your sugegstion, S'ra, but we need to lookup all references. Thanks!

[ChrisG]

Sheets is used for any type of parchment, it seems:

From DragonFlight
He rummaged among the skin sheets on the table, and an object dropped to the stone floor with a metallic clatter.

Bendarek’s leaves are also called sheets:

From DragonQuest
All the man thinks of is wood and pulp and those new leaves or sheets or what-you-ma-callums he’s mucking about with.”

Bendarek now has a reliable, tough sheet of his wood pulp that holds ink, stacks neatly and is impervious to anything except fire.

And the Pernese take to calling it paper even before Aivas:

From DragonSinger
“I’ll want it transferred to some of those neat paper sheets Bendarek supplies us with, so Menolly can go over it at her leisure.

She would have it finished in next to no time once she had more ink and those paper sheets.

“I’d need more paper, Master Domick, but I’ll have time to do two or three more copies before supper, if you need them…”

Arnor should have retreated from his domain, and we can get as much paper as we want from Dermently.

[Hans]

And the Pernese take to calling it paper even before Aivas

That clinches it Good finds, Chris. Thank you. It's these think that we usually don't notice until we're forced to look better/closer

[Brenda]

Another good quote - I don't have it here, but it's at the beginning of AtWoP when Aivas tells them his printing supply may run out, and paper would be an acceptable substitute. "Paper? Wood-pulp paper?" xxxxxx said in astonishment...

[Chimaerrha]

ATWoP Online:

"Always efficient ones," Master Fandarel replied, ignoring the disparagement. "I can plainly see that every Craft can benefit from the knowledge stored in Aivas. This morning Bendarek was given invaluable advice on how to improve his paper, Aivas called it, and speed up its production. Very simple, but Bendarek immediately saw the possibilities and has gone back to Lemos to develop this much more efficient method. That's why he's not here."

[ChrisG]

Not that it matters, but I believe Brenda meant this one:

From All the Weyrs of Pern
"More material will soon be needed for the printer," Aivas went on. "Rolls should be stored in the Catherine Caves with the other supplies. Paper would be an acceptable substitute."

"Paper?" Larad exclaimed. "Wood-pulp paper?"

Still, it's curious that Larad recognizes the proper name for paper, yet it sounds like a new word in Fandarel's vocabulary--this quote does come before the other one.

[Brenda]

Thanks, that's the one! I find it strange that they would have come up with the same word for a substance that hadn't been used for so long that it was a brand new invention.

[Shalyn]

Yeah - considering they have "canines" and "herdbeasts" and "runnerbeasts" and "gossamer spinners", you'd think they'd call it something like "writing wood", or "wood-hide".

[edith]

Perhaps it had become a colloqiual term, like hide for anything of that type, which could explain why some characters are more familiar with the term than others, like bread rolls being known as cobs or baps or whatever, depending on where you are in the UK.

[Brenda]

But we never saw them use the word before - it was always hide or sheets. I never saw the word "paper" before the quote I mentioned.

As I was rereading Renegades of Pern, I spotted a few things that I don't believe have been mentioned before. For the record, it's a U.S. Del Rey paperback that was new a few years ago.

On page 155 of my copy, just after the attack on Thella's stronghold and the realization that she escaped:

"...They can't have gotten far on foot." (Jayge)

Larad leaned disconsolately against the wall, shaking his head, and sighed at the futility of their efforts. "She knows how to use snowstaves. She's very good at it."

So, snowstaves = skis! Or possibly snowshoes, but they're in the mountains going down, and staves suggest long straight pieces of wood. So I would say skis. (Yeah, I'm overthinking this one. )


A few pages later, p. 163, while Jayge is at Keroon Hold after the attack on his family's wagon train:

With Kesso comfortably stabled and muzzle-deep in a good grain feed, Jayge set out to explore Keroon Hold. He had never been that far south before, and the busy Hold was full of new sights, including a port facility that handled cargo bound for Ista and the west. Jayge walked down to the port and spent a long nooning in a harbor alehold, listening to seamen, listening to people, and listening for any word about Thella.

So, alehold = pub or tavern.


Actually, that brings up another one I had forgotten about: nooning = lunch. That's in RoP several times - I don't know the page, but I remember that at the Igen gather Thella buys extra slabs of meat "for my nooning." And it's in the alehold quote above.


Okay, last one for now. P. 266 in my copy, when Piemur and Master Robinton are about to go in the strange "hill" that used to be the traffic control and weather tower:

By the time Farli had returned with a candle in each claw, Piemur had an opening large enough to crawl through. The two fire-lizards, upside down on clawholds at the top of the hole, peered in. Their inquiring chirps echoed. Then Zair pushed off and Farli followed him, their chittering reassuring Piemur as he struggled to strike a sulfur stick ablaze and light a candle.

Obviously sulfur sticks = matches.

[Chimaerrha]

Brenda: don't know the page, but I gots references. :d

RoP online:

They had been several hours on the trail and were nearly ready for a nooning stop when the cry went up:...

It was becoming stuffy in the tented square, but by the time she had eaten her nooning under the canopies that had been raised near the firepits, her boots were receiving a final polish.

Also, some more references/Pernese-Terran terminology:

RoP online:

[QUOTE]Then his father came galloping around the bend, Challer’s rig nearly at his heels.
QUOTE]

Is a rig a horse or is it a wagon?.

Some fruits:

D'Song online

The first of the low marsh valleys was pink and yellow with blooming seabeachplum and marshberry,

A food I don;t know:

Menolly fumbled in her skirt pocket, found two sweet-balls and popped them into old Uncle’s mouth

[Hans]

Brenda, great finds! Thank you!
I won't be putting nooning in as that's not Pernese but plain Terran that has gone into disuse; but the others are definitely going onto the list.

Chim, the food stuffs are hardest because we can search for a Terran equivalent but there's always a chance they are indigenous...

I suppose a rig is a wagon but just another word for it, because wagon is used far more often. But if others have ideas about this I'd be glad to hear them.

[Brenda]

I wasn't sure about nooning since I've never seen it anywhere else!

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Hans

Chim, the food stuffs are hardest because we can search for a Terran equivalent but there's always a chance they are indigenous...

Gobstoppers would be a direct equivalent of sweetballs, even if they're not of the same composition - they still serve the same purpose, that being something sweet that shuts you up until you've chewed your way through it.

[Chimaerrha]

Brenda: actually, Pernese call matches "matches."

MHoP online:

He thought he'd best get some matches and hand them out to the other lads so that they could start a fire on their turns. Maybe see that there was some tinder for them to smuggle along...

Sweetening could be sugar.

MHoP online:

He had his answer and sucked at the burn while he poured water over the powdered klah, gave it a swirl, and then fumbled to open the sweetener jar. Sweetening was good to offset shock and cold.

What is sweet pudding?

MHOp

He had finished his meal before the drug took effect; he was just pushing back the final dish of sweet pudding when he abruptly sagged down to the table top, his face just missing a splash of the pudding sauce that had spilled there.

[Hans]

Drate and double drat, there's another MHoP descrepancie But I'll let it stand!

If we haven't sweetening for sugar already on the list, I'll add it. It's one of the better known.

Sweet pudding is simply a sweet pudding

If you google for nooning you find out rapidly that it is a regular/accepted Terran term althiugh not much used anymore (first reerences I got were to Mark Twain).

Kath, one of the difficult things with foodstuffs, in this case sweets, is that they are not the same all over the world (read: Terra). I, for instance, have never heard of the things you talk about. Those markets tend to be different per country/part of the world and regularly people even suggest brand names

[Anneli]

I wonder whether a "rig" is Pernese for a gelding in earth speak? I'd always assumed it was, but now am not so sure *shrugs*

Originally Posted by Hans

I suppose a rig is a wagon but just another word for it, because wagon is used far more often. But if others have ideas about this I'd be glad to hear them.

[Hans]

Hmm... I was thinking Anne used it the way the Aussies and sometimes Americans do for a truck.

[Kath]

Gobstoppers are usually hard rather than chewy, so it certainly doesn't seem to be a one-to-one correspondence - but they're an old traditional sweet over here, and one I'd be surprised if Anne wasn't familiar with. As far as this thread goes, you're quite correct that it doesn't really fit as a direct Pernese-English translation, but it IS the closest analogue to a Terran product, in that it's a sweet that can't be consumed quickly, and stops you speaking - hence the name.

I'm with you on the rig=wagon/truck though.

[Anneli]

Rig - A male horse or pony who has either one or both testes undescended and retained, ie retained in the abdomen.

*shrugs again* For some reason the name rang a bell in my head when I read the quote which started this discussion It sounded like just the sort of word Anne would hit on to "disguise" English into Pernese

[S'ra]

Okay, i found the referrence to paper in D'song though i think Anne may have slipped up there, after all it was 2,500 Turns since the word was used last on Pern.

How about:
Sandtable=chalkboard/whiteboard
a reusable writing surface

[Hans]

Erm.. S'ra, it needs to be the same thing, not a substitute. Something you mention should go into the encyclopedia but not on this list as it simply is not the same thing although both objects serve more or less the same goal. Do you get what I mean?

[Brenda]

Brenda: actually, Pernese call matches "matches."

MHoP online:


Quote:
He thought he'd best get some matches and hand them out to the other lads so that they could start a fire on their turns. Maybe see that there was some tinder for them to smuggle along...

What does that prove? That's one quote for sulfur sticks and one quote for matches. Frankly I give more credit to RoP than to MHoP. Either way, sulfur stick is the equivalent of matches.

This MHoP quote is like the paper question - why would they call them matches? Sulfur stick is a more Pernese-type name - an actual description of the object.

[Chimaerrha]

Originally Posted by Brenda

What does that prove? That's one quote for sulfur sticks and one quote for matches. Frankly I give more credit to RoP than to MHoP. Either way, sulfur stick is the equivalent of matches.

This MHoP quote is like the paper question - why would they call them matches? Sulfur stick is a more Pernese-type name - an actual description of the object.

I just wasn't sure if one had been a mistake, but, upon pondering it more, you're right - RoP probably is more credible.

[Hans]

Mistake? Sloppy is the word tha comes to my mind

There just hasn't been done enough research for MHoP and Anne admitted as much to me... I never understood why the few fans that were allowed to read the MS didn't write a very long letter to accompany it when they sent it back. I would have!

[bingley]

Originally Posted by Hans

While working on pages for the new (illustrated!) Pern Encyclopedia I came across the term black heavy water for oil; but... I hadn't noted down where I came across the term (am fairly sure it'll de Dragonflight or Dragonquest though). Will add it but will also check!

Dragonflight (Corgi paperback edition) page 281 top of the page
(Farandel is speaking) "... We of the Craft call it agenothree. There is also the black heavy-water that lies on the surface of Igen and Boll. It burns hot and long. ..."

Cheeseroom = dairy? (Dragonflight pg 15)
Rigid with concentration, Lessa lay in the straw of the redolent cheeseroom she shared as sleeping quarters with the other kitchen drudges.

Woodcraftsman = carpenter and joiner? (Dragonquest page 70)
Well, the Oldtimers were eager enough to own products of wood, overloading Fandarel's woodcraftsman, Bendarek, with their demands.


Hmmm. This is hard. Anne writes so well you just accept the Pernese terms as what things are called.

[Hans]

Thanks, bingley

Yeah don't I know that, about not even noticing some Pernese names because Anne writes so well

[bingley]

Dragonquest, page 35:
'Oh, him' Lessa screwed her fine delicate features into a grimace. 'He's off to Lemos Hold to see how that woodcraftsman of Lord Asgenar's is doing with the wood pulp leaves.'

Dragonquest, page 168:
A long table dominated the centre of the room, its wide ends deep sand trays, the rest a conglomerate of Record skins, leaves of paper and a variety of bizarre equipment.

Dragonquest, page 240:
The Smith was delicately tapping out a code, the irregular lengths of red lines appearing on the grey paper as the needle moved.

OTOH:
Dragonquest page 165
F'lar received F'nor's message, five leaves of notes, just as he was about to set out for the Smithcrafthall to see Fandarel's distance-writing mechanism.

Dragonquest pages 318 - 320
What Wansor is holding is referred to as a leaf and as a sheet.

So, Pernese terminology seems to be in a state of flux. 'Leaf' or 'sheet' in a non-technical context, but 'paper' in more technical contexts.

[Brenda]

Or when the author slipped up...

By AtWoP, "paper" seems to be in regular use.

[Hans]

Brenda, with Anne that is always an almost definite things to reckon with

It can be a lot of fun though to try and 'reason' them away

[bingley]

As I understand it we're supposed to be looking for things which exist on both Pern and Terra but have different names on each planet. I'm not sure about including 'apprentice'. What else would you call somebody in that sort of relationship, living with an experienced person to learn a craft? Perhaps I read too much fiction or history set in mediaeval times, but it seems perfectly normal English to me, unlike black heavy-water for oil.

I must confess to minimal acquaintance with women's underwear, but I think a breastband is different from a bra. Certainly it goes round the same part of the body but to me it suggests a different shape, used more to cover up breasts or even totally conceal them if the woman is trying to pass as a man, not to support and display them.

I've just come across 'necessary' in Dragonsinger, when Mirrim uses the word to Menolly. Is it the standard word, do you suppose, or is it a rather prissy euphemism? What were the sanitary arrangements? Did they have plumbing or was it just basically a hole in the floor?

[Hans]

Originally Posted by bingley

<huge snip> What were the sanitary arrangements? Did they have plumbing or was it just basically a hole in the floor?

Please post these questions in a seperate thread, Bingley? That we this topic stays 'clean' (more or less) and we've another chance of a fine discussion

As for breastband not being the exact same as a bra, true but we're not looking for exact same for for expressions/terms used on Pern that designate more or less the same thing on Earth. Also the fact that apprentice is also used on Earth is no problem, more important here is that apprentice is used like we would use student on Earth.

[P'ter]

Incidentally, I think 'nooning' is an Irishism. I'm pretty sure I heard it used in Galway.

[Hans]

P'ter, I can't remember hearing it in Ireland (which, of course. doesn't mean anything) but the online Random House Unabridged Dictionary says: "chiefly inland north" and gives 1425-1475/late Middle Ages as time of 'origin'.

Now what would chiefly inland north desginate? Scotland? Northern England?

[P'ter]

A lot of northern Ireland was inhabited by Scots. (Gaels). That's why they have Gaelic in common (although the Irish Gaelic dialect was known as 'Eiranach' and Scots Gaelic was known as 'Albanach'). This lasted up till late sixteenth century.

So I would take it that "inland north" would designate the area where the Pennines cross the border.

Despite the official history of two separate nations divided by Hadrian's Wall (and the other ones) there was a lot of intermarriage and cross fertilisation of culture.

[bingley]

From "The White Dragon" (page 12 Del Rey edition)

But, if today the Benden Weyr-leaders decided Ruth was strong enough to bear his weight in flight, then Jaxom would be free to fly away from the taunts he'd had to endure from his milkbrother and his cronies.

Onelook doesn't recognise milkbrother or milk brother as an English word. If asked I would have said English resorts to a paraphrase like "wet nurse's son". However, a quick google finds it in a few bilingual dictionaries to translate words from languages where the concept is presumably more familiar, and it also appears on Islamic sites since apparently the prophet Mohammad's milk brother was a significant figure. It also comes up in obviously SF or Pern-related sites. Who knows, maybe if it ever makes an English dictionary Anne will be credited with having coined it.

Also, page 51 milkmother (= wetnurse)

She was Deelan's green and so much in manner like his milkmother that he was reminded of the weyr axiom that a dragon was no better than his rider.