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Old Jul 12 2014, 03:54 AM   #1
razor4466
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Default What if....?

I can't find this anywhere so if it is please direct me there.
My question is what would have happened if Prideth and Wirenth hadn't gone into heat in the same Weyr and Canth actually flew Wirenth. How great would the size difference in the hatchlings be from a bronze mating. Or would Canth's obvious size advantage for a brown offset the differences? Not to mention what if there were a Queen egg from the mating?
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Old Jul 12 2014, 07:37 AM   #2
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Default Re: What if....?

We know from the first pass books that the heavier males are programmed to produce sperm-equivalent for the entire range of dragon colours (DDawn) and that one of Sorka's self-imposed tasks was to keep track of which browns and bronzes had flown which queens (First Fall). I *think* there's a passage in the same book that implies that some of the golds came from brown matings, but I'm not sure - everything's in boxes for the Big Move right now.

I *think* the DLG may suggest that gold eggs are rare/don't happen at all in brown matings, but that's obviously superseded by anything you can find in the books themselves. Also, there's Todd-canon to consider, where a green clutched a gold egg, IIRC?

The duration and altitude of a flight do seem to have some impact on the size and colour-ratio of the clutch produced. Arguably, Canth could probably keep up with the oldtimer bronzes, but he might not have been able to match Wirenth herself without Brekke's input to the flight. Any clutch resulting from that flight would not - I expect - be appreciably different from that coming from a bronze mating.
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Old Jul 12 2014, 09:14 PM   #3
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Default Re: What if....?

Thank you and now I shall have to find my book as well.
I have an aversion to reading Todd's stories so I haven't investigated that avenue for an answer. I appreciate your insight.
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Old Jul 12 2014, 11:08 PM   #4
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Default Re: What if....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath View Post
Also, there's Todd-canon to consider, where a green clutched a gold egg, IIRC?
From a green-blue pairing too, as I recall. I sort of wish someone would go through them and make a documentation of the rules of his Pern, because it's implied that the blues eventually become sterile from firestone as well. :S

ETA: Greens do produce smaller clutches in the Todd books, however. 10-20 to a queen's 30-40.
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Old Jul 12 2014, 11:22 PM   #5
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Default Re: What if....?

There's nothing wrong with considering Todd's books as a separate canon.
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Old Jul 13 2014, 02:21 AM   #6
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From a green-blue pairing too, as I recall. I sort of wish someone would go through them and make a documentation of the rules of his Pern, because it's implied that the blues eventually become sterile from firestone as well. :S

ETA: Greens do produce smaller clutches in the Todd books, however. 10-20 to a queen's 30-40.
Implied? I thought it was outright stated. I guess there's a reason I stopped reading Todd's books...it's dangerous hanging around someone who doesn't know how to handle his cannons.
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Old Jul 13 2014, 08:44 PM   #7
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I've always gone with the idea that green dragons are genuinely sterile, but it has nothing to do with firestone - they were engineered that way. But since they chew firestone, and the fertile queens don't, everyone has made a false correlation. And because they believe it would make a queen infertile, no one will ever have them try to chew firestone, so they'll never know that they wouldn't be able to!
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Old Jul 14 2014, 12:55 AM   #8
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Implied? I thought it was outright stated. I guess there's a reason I stopped reading Todd's books...it's dangerous hanging around someone who doesn't know how to handle his cannons.
Possibly. It's rather dumb, though, as none of the larger males are made sterile through firestone use.

That said, I wish someone would write his rules down so we could have a reference to look up when younger fans roll through...
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Old Jul 14 2014, 01:05 AM   #9
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Default Re: What if....?

It's the same passage, Kath, she's actually talking about tracking who sired which queen so they could try to avoid parent/child rematings. Hence part of the reason they were spreading everyone out to other Weyrs, not just to avoid crowding but lower the risk of inbreeding.

In Wirenth and Canth's case, she probably wouldn't have clutched a queen if only because there's no shortage of them and no imperative to breed more, but it seems unlikely, given Canth was bigger than Oldtimer bronzes even, and Wirenth was not a giant like Ramoth, it would be much different than Wirenth being flown by an ordinary bronze.
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Old Jul 15 2014, 03:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: What if....?

Todd's 3rd Pass rules (IIRC from Sky Dragons) on greens is that they can clutch until they chew firestone, and it is the firestone that renders them infertile. I don't recall anything about blues being rendered sterile from chewing firestone, in fact, I believe it is implied that the male dragons do not become sterile from chewing firestone.

I don't think Todd's rules are different or conflicting with Anne's, but he decided to explore in the aspects of Pern that Anne had not covered. I think he did some fine work in coming up with social variations for the 3rd Pass books, science notwithstanding.
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Old Jul 15 2014, 05:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: What if....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath View Post
We know from the first pass books that the heavier males are programmed to produce sperm-equivalent for the entire range of dragon colours (DDawn) and that one of Sorka's self-imposed tasks was to keep track of which browns and bronzes had flown which queens (First Fall).
<Snip>

The duration and altitude of a flight do seem to have some impact on the size and colour-ratio of the clutch produced.
Yes in the same part, Sean told Sorka 'Twenty mature queens, outside of Faranth who only mates with Carenath, and the three injured.' She said "Porth can fly" Sean said something about not long for a good clutch, and Tarrie is good with management skill.

Used http://pern.srellim.org/cast/sw2.htm to get the different name right, thanks
I just recalled something, about many bronzes and two browns tried for Ramoth Lessa recalled
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