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Old Jan 27 2012, 04:20 PM   #1
Almaron
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Default Quick Notes

Every now and then while reading through a Pern book I find notes of interest that people might have missed - things regarding characters, or the history of a place, or something else. I figure it's a good idea to create a thread where people can post these "quick notes"; rather than bump old pages.

Anyway...

*In WD (15PP), Robinton states T'kul is twenty years older than F'lar. In SOP (31PP), F'lar is said to be 63, so this means T'kul was 67 when he fought F'lar. This means T'kul was born in the Seventh Interval (-15 turns of the Ninth Pass, - 50 (give or take) turns of the Eighth Pass, leaving 2 turns); making him one of the oldest Oldtimers!

*In DQ, Felessan identifies two candidates at Ramoth's Impression - Pellomar and Birto. Oddly, the second candidate's dragonrider name is given as "B'irto" in several dragondexes.

*DD has Piemur and Sharra catching and eating a "Whersport"; a creature like a wher and fire-lizard, except not as big and not nocturnal (Dragonfire seems to suggest they are relatives of Whers). Although it seems as though they are restricted to the Southern Continent, the DLG states they are hunted by the Benden dragonriders, which could suggest they are common in the east, and Piemur had simply never seen one before.

*One section of the Atlas of Pern briefly mentions Weyrleader meetings; noting how things have changed between the Sixth Pass (where the oldest Weyrleader acted as chair) and the Eight Pass/Ninth Pass (where Fort's Weyrleader acted as chair, before Benden became dominant). However, RSR/DE shows Fort's Weyrleader acting as chair in the First Interval. It could be that the custom was always to have Fort's Weyrleader chair meetings, but since Sh'gall was sick and unable to attend the meeting in the Sixth Pass, the other Weyrleaders might have chosen the oldest (and thus most experienced) Weyrleader to chair for that meeting.

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Old May 17 2012, 03:34 AM   #2
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Default Re: Quick Notes

I'd forgotten I'd started this thread! Anyway...

*The knowledge of Artificial Respiration seems to have been lost to Pern by the Ninth Pass - it still existed in the Second Interval; in Dragon Fire, Pellar uses it to revive Cristov. Brekke used it to save F'nor in Dragonquest, but it was said to be instinctive...or was it? If Pellar knew how to use Artificial Respiration, it was likely written down on a record in the Harper Hall, which might have survived to the Ninth Pass in pieces; the images might have existed, but the text deteriorated - like Fandarel's own records for several machines. Brekke might have seen this record, and subconciously remembered it when F'nor returned from the Red Star - compare the real-life case of the person who successfully performed the Heimlich Maneuver on a choking person, yet only knew how to do it because of a diagram of it shown in an episode of the Simpsons.
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Old May 17 2012, 01:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: Quick Notes

It isn't listed as instinctive, at least not on the Google Books scan. It's 'half-forgotten', which means Brekke was probably trained at some point, or else witnessed someone else performing pulmonary resuscitation. Logically something that integral to basic first aid would not be lost, but the average Pernese might not know how to do it or be very aware of the process.

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Old May 17 2012, 05:08 PM   #4
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Cool observations. I really hadn't paid attention to see these tidbits before.
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Old May 18 2012, 07:55 AM   #5
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I did not think F'lar was that old.
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Old May 18 2012, 01:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Quick Notes

Quote:
Originally Posted by semantre View Post
It isn't listed as instinctive, at least not on the Google Books scan. It's 'half-forgotten', which means Brekke was probably trained at some point, or else witnessed someone else performing pulmonary resuscitation. Logically something that integral to basic first aid would not be lost, but the average Pernese might not know how to do it or be very aware of the process.
Considering the long time-scale of the Dragonriders saga (2500 years), numerous techniques may have been lost and rediscovered/reinvented several times.

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Old May 18 2012, 11:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almaron View Post
Every now and then while reading through a Pern book I find notes of interest that people might have missed - things regarding characters, or the history of a place, or something else. I figure it's a good idea to create a thread where people can post these "quick notes"; rather than bump old pages.

Anyway...

*DD has Piemur and Sharra catching and eating a "Whersport"; a creature like a wher and fire-lizard, except not as big and not nocturnal (Dragonfire seems to suggest they are relatives of Whers). Although it seems as though they are restricted to the Southern Continent, the DLG states they are hunted by the Benden dragonriders, which could suggest they are common in the east, and Piemur had simply never seen one before.
I wonder if maybe, during the early years of the colony, a number of larger relatives of fire-lizards (a.k.a. dragonets) were identified by the name 'wher'? This might explain how the original imperfect dragons of Wind Blossom's first solo attempt at a clutch acquired this name, and why the name "wher-sport" was later applied to creatures that somewhat resembled whers. Also, the expression "tanned wher skin" was already applied to a kind of leather in DragonsDawn.

This leaves the question of where the word "wher" came from.

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Old May 19 2012, 12:01 AM   #8
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Default Re: Quick Notes

It might also be a sort of miniature wherry.
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Old May 19 2012, 01:46 PM   #9
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Also possible, and would explain the name. Or rather than a miniature, it could mean a really big version of wherry --- bigger hides would be more useful for clothing purposes.

"The Survey: P.E.R.N. (c)" says they were "the biggest life-forms seen" and there were two identifiable types, but doesn't give any clear details on size. They didn't stay long enough to see everything, just hopping from place to place taking samples.

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Old May 19 2012, 01:50 PM   #10
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I meant the whersport might be a miniature wherry!

Since they already had the name for "wherry" from the survey team, it makes sense that "wherry hide" would get shortened to "wherhide".
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Old May 21 2012, 12:50 PM   #11
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Default Re: Quick Notes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriflor View Post
Considering the long time-scale of the Dragonriders saga (2500 years), numerous techniques may have been lost and rediscovered/reinvented several times.

Eriflor.
That makes sense only fpr certain situations. If something is being taught to a large number of people (as in, every healer to be trained), it is not going to be lost. You lose things when a small number of people are in the know and they are killed off before they can pass on the knowledge. Standard first aid practices would not be subject to this type of loss.
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Old May 29 2012, 06:31 AM   #12
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Default Re: Quick Notes

Here's something new...

In Nerilka's Story, when B'lerion explains what led to Moreta's death, the following is revealed;

"It had begun as a logical expedient for injured riders to ask their flightworthy dragons if they would fly a sound dragonman to make up Wing strength at Threadfall. Each dragon had his own peculiarities of flight that his impressed rider understood. But, generally speaking, any dragonrider was capable of riding another's dragon."

It's also mentioned that a number of rules and disciplines have been changed to prevent a repeat of the accident, so this could explain why this sort of thing isn't really seen in any of the Ninth Pass books. However, since dragons being ridden by a person who isn't their rider doesn't appear in any other books save those of the Third Pass, could it be that the methods developed in Dragongirl were where the custom originated from?

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Old May 30 2012, 09:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: Quick Notes

It is mentioned, briefly, in Dragonflight - young Naton, soon to be N'ton, can make Canth understand him, and at one point F'lar is considering whether substitute riders would be possible. I don't have a copy with me to find the quote.
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Old Jun 25 2012, 07:00 AM   #14
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Default Re: Quick Notes

Ah, this should be of use to the Pern cartographers out there...

Brum Hold is a location mentioned in the dragondex for Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern, but, oddly, isn't mentioned in the story itself (along with a Healer; Felldool), meaning its location is uncertain.

However, in Dragon Harper, wingleader L'tor reports on the status of a number of holds; first stating "No sign of life at Benden Hold, Valley Hold, Brum, or Bay Head...". All of these holdings are in Benden, which could suggest Brum is a Benden Hold - perhaps even the un-named hold located north of Valley Hold in the Atlas, although the Pandemic map in the Atlas could suggest it was located nearer the Hold proper.

Of course, he goes on to report on Fork, Keroon and Plains Holds, along with Lemos and Bitra, which could suggest it's an east coast Hold in general (I would have said holds covered by Benden Weyr, but I think Ista Weyr was handling Keroon at this point in time).

This leaves two minor holdings whose precise affiliation is uncertain; Great Reach Hold and Vesta River Hold.
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Old Jul 5 2012, 10:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: Quick Notes

One good thing about several location inconsistencies in the newer books is that they help show how Pern's Hold and Weyr borders have evolved over the Turns - something described in the AOP - as in many of the newer books, the borders appear to follow the natural land boundaries - such as mountains or rivers.

For instance, despite Nabol having no coastline in Dragondrums - a major plot point, since they find it odd that they have so many fire-lizards despite no nesting place for them - the nearby bay is called the Bay of Nabol in Dragon's Fire; suggesting that when originally settled, Nabol extended all the way to the coastline, but over time, settlers living in that area and along the river that leads to Nabol decided to defect to Ruatha Hold. On another note, the nearby Keogh Hold is beholden to Crom in Dragon's Fire, yet is a Nabol holding by the Ninth Pass; which goes to show that at some point the lands to the far west of the Crom River decided to defect to Nabol - or perhaps this was the doing of Fax?

Another border change regards Plains Hold, which is a Lemos holding by the Ninth Pass, but is beholden to Keroon in Dragonheart. It makes sense that things were founded this way; Keroon and Lemos have a good natural border with the river near Plains Hold. Like Keogh Hold, this suggests at some point in time Plains Hold defected to Lemos.

The Weyr borders have also changed over time; by the Ninth Pass, they are as follows:

Fort: Fort, Ruatha, Southern Boll
Benden: Benden, Bitra, Lemos, North Nerat
High Reaches: High Reaches, Tillek, Nabol
Igen: North Igen, South Telgar, North Keroon
Ista: Ista, Igen, South Keroon, Nerat
Telgar: Telgar, Crom

Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern - and an interview with Anne McCaffrey cited in the AOP - shows several different borders; Fort and High Reaches Weyrs cover Crom, and Telgar - having been recently established - covers Keroon; however, it appears Ista still protects a good deal of South Keroon, according to Beyond Between.

The books of the Second Interval and Third Pass change the borders a fair bit; for starters, in Dragonheart Benden Weyr is said to cover all Nerat - although this could be an inconsistency, since Ista Weyr fights Thread over Nerat in Dragonsblood - while Ista Weyr covers Keroon, and in Dragonsblood it seems as though Fort Weyr covers part of Telgar. Telgar Weyr claims to be covering Igen Weyr's lands, which suggests Igen Weyr was protecting the entire Igen peninsula - it could be that they once covered Keroon and then left that for Ista Weyr to deal with, but it should be noted that it's only ever said that Igen Hold suffered a drought that led to the low tithings; if they were protecting Keroon, surely they would have been able to get proper tithings from there.

(Additional research in progress...)
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Old Jul 7 2012, 11:48 AM   #16
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Default Re: Quick Notes

I guess it's a good thing I'm doing 9th pass then or you'd be driving me crazy huh?
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Old Nov 13 2012, 05:55 AM   #17
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Hmm...now this is interesting. Chapter 14 of Dragongirl gives some insight into the Weyr boundaries of the Third Pass - and how Thread falls;

*Fort and High Reaches Weyr fly 4 Falls.
*Ista Weyr flies 5 Falls.
*Telgar Weyr flies 6 Falls.
*Benden Weyr flies 7 Falls; some of which were formerly covered by Igen Weyr.

Only problem is this doesn't seem to quite match the patterns shown on the Threadfall map done by Harry and Marilyn Alm - of course, since that was for the First and Ninth Pass, it could easily be argued this was a different pattern. When I checked the maps, I found the following:

*Four or five Falls (two of which were very short ones) for High Reaches Weyr.
*Four Falls for Fort Weyr.
*Four Falls for Telgar Weyr.
*Two Falls for Ista Weyr.
*Five or Six Falls (two of which might not be necessary) for Benden Weyr.

Ista and Benden's numbers depend on who covers Nerat; here I've given it to Benden. This calls for further research, methinks...
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Old Nov 22 2012, 06:42 PM   #18
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Default Re: Quick Notes

Was going over character lists for Dragonquest, and I noticed that two characters have dragons with the same names!

G'sel and green Roth; recuperating from injuries at Southern Weyr.
P'zar and bronze Roth; acting Weyrleader at Fort Weyr following T'ron's banishment.

Best hope they don't share a Weyr, then; orders given in Threadfall could become confusing...

Crap, and now that I think about it, Roth is the name of an important character in the Dragon Riders video game! This might take a while to fix on the wiki...
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Old Dec 3 2012, 01:14 AM   #19
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Here's something interesting;

During the Fireball Flood in Skies of Pern, F'lessan repeatedly muses about Moreta's Ride; in doing so, revealing that he knows that Moreta was timing it. Since this was omitted from the Ballad of Moreta's Ride, this suggests another Record was written somewhere on Pern that mentioned this, but became lost until rediscovered during Aivas' request for archived materials.

Such Records could have been written by any of the major characters in the book, meaning it could have existed at:
*Fort Weyr - written by any of the queen riders; responsible for writing the Records, but perhaps unlikely as F'lar and Lessa failed to find this information when searching the empty Weyrs.
*Healer Hall - written by Capiam or Desdra, but not so likely since they had previously agreed to lose their Hall's Records that detailed the ability to travel between times.
*Ruatha Hold - written by Nerilka as "Nerilka's Story". This is probably the most likely source of the information, as it is a memoir of the character which would have been stored in the Hold Records, and which defines Moreta's actions clearly.
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Old Dec 3 2012, 02:34 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almaron View Post
*Ruatha Hold - written by Nerilka as "Nerilka's Story". This is probably the most likely source of the information, as it is a memoir of the character which would have been stored in the Hold Records, and which defines Moreta's actions clearly.
This is now my head-canon. What a great idea!
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Old Dec 3 2012, 07:06 PM   #21
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Quote:
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<snip>Crap, and now that I think about it, Roth is the name of an important character in the Dragon Riders video game! This might take a while to fix on the wiki...
Which isn't cannon, as far as I know.
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Old Dec 4 2012, 12:51 AM   #22
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Default Re: Quick Notes

Regardless of whether it is canon or not, stuff like that can prove problematic when fixing it requires updating a number of old pages. Luckily, in this case it turned out to only be two pages, and Find/Replace meant it was easily dealt with.
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Old Dec 4 2012, 06:08 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almaron View Post
Here's something interesting;

During the Fireball Flood in Skies of Pern, F'lessan repeatedly muses about Moreta's Ride; in doing so, revealing that he knows that Moreta was timing it. Since this was omitted from the Ballad of Moreta's Ride, this suggests another Record was written somewhere on Pern that mentioned this, but became lost until rediscovered during Aivas' request for archived materials.

Such Records could have been written by any of the major characters in the book, meaning it could have existed at:
*Fort Weyr - written by any of the queen riders; responsible for writing the Records, but perhaps unlikely as F'lar and Lessa failed to find this information when searching the empty Weyrs.
<rest snipped>
There wouldn't have been anything of significance to be found at any of the empty Weyrs, as the riders would have brought all their permanent Records, personal gear, and all the stores they could carry when they came forward in time. Lessa was looking over some records from Ista, but they sound more like a headwoman's records (bread recipes), or possibly old recopied skins set aside for recycling.

I'm guessing that Fort Weyr (and no other) had a Record of the true story of Moreta's Ride, possibly available only to Weyrleaders. Also that jumping between times was strictly forbidden when anyone admitted to having done it.
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Old Jul 11 2013, 02:45 AM   #24
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While reading through The White Dragon again, I noticed an interesting line in chapter twelve:

"Selianth wants me to stay above her at all times so her flamethrower won't singe me, Ruth said, his mental tone muffled as he retained fire-breath."

Since dragons communicate purely through telepathy (well, excusing the odd rumble and bugle), there's no reason why his tone should be muffled, and it suggests he's intentionally adopting the voice for whatever reason; perhaps even out of a subconscious feeling that if he was actually speaking, his voice would have been muffled (or perhaps it's to do with him reacting to the pressure on his throat against his actual vocal cords).

In any case, it reminds me of an old (light-hearted) interview with Anne McCaffrey, where she said that the reason all dragon names end in "-th" is because their forked tongues make them lisp. Perhaps there's some truth in this statement; could it be that some dragons give themselves a lisp simply because their tongue feels like it would make that sound? Or could it be something that all young dragons exhibit and later grow out of?

A silly topic, admittedly, but worth musing about.
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Old Jul 14 2013, 04:32 PM   #25
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Maybe the physical situation "sounds through" in the mental one because of the concentration needed. The dragon "imagines" he is speaking, so circumstances may still "colour" the voice (?)
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Old Jul 14 2013, 08:37 PM   #26
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Maybe since he had to concentrate so much on holding his breath in.
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