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View Poll Results: Kylara, Evil or misunderstood?
Evil through and through! 22 23.66%
I don't think she was Evil but she certainly was no angel 63 67.74%
Purely misunderstood. 2 2.15%
The Purple monkeys are the ones to ask. 6 6.45%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jan 31 2008, 09:44 PM   #161
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

Well, if intense human thoughts among human activities, especially one as emotionally-charged as a Hatching, can theoretically change the turnout of an event (I'm thinking of an absolutely spectacular dice roll I've read about -six twenties from six d20s in a row!), then why not in Impressions?

And going back on topic: Kylara was a flawed, rotten woman, and I agree that perhaps circumstances were stacked against her, but she still made all the wrong choices. It all comes down to choices.
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Old Feb 3 2008, 01:07 PM   #162
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

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Originally Posted by edith View Post
I was saying that as well as the politics, the reasons more girls from the stands didn't impress might be be to the "girls only ride gold" mindset swaying the dragons.
Jora wasn't supposed to be bad looking in the beginning. If there are a group of telempathically minded men out there thinking "she'd be good. I wouldn't mind my dragon flying hers." perhaps that could sway a dragon, or if she was the only one there, the dragonet wouldn't want to die!
It's entirely possible the "girls only ride gold" mindset would come into play, but with the girls, not the dragons. Girls who are fully convinced that they cannot Impress a green may simply not long for it as badly and thus they may not be "transmitting" strongly enough for a green to pick them up in the stands.

We don't know enough about the whole Jora thing to say. There's probably an entire story there of its own. For all we know, Jora seriously liked the first bronze rider that flew her gold, but subsequent bronze riders that did so were not to her liking. Maybe she pined away for that first, or maybe one of them was abusive. We just don't know anything but the result: she got sedentary and communicated it to her dragon.

I would find it unsurprising if the telempathic in the audience of a hatching influenced the dragons somewhat in their selections. Of course, for all we know all that urging might produce a fair amount of "static" as well! But enough dragons have chosen to follow their own notions to the surprise of all (including the telempathic) that such influence is obviously not a trump card.

I rather doubt that Jora was the only offering for Nemorth. Given that dragons will suicide if they don't Impress, risking that with a queen, especially in Benden's circumstances near the end of the Second Long Interval would be insane. And while I'm certain that the newly hatched dragons don't want to die, a number of them are known to have gone Between for a lack of an Impressible candidate.
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Old Feb 4 2008, 05:04 PM   #163
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

And consider that after a point, probably not that long after DE/RSR, girls are being Searched ONLY when there is a queen egg on the sands. That is the reason they are brought there. They probably wouldn't even consider the other eggs as options.
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Old Feb 4 2008, 08:11 PM   #164
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

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And consider that after a point, probably not that long after DE/RSR, girls are being Searched ONLY when there is a queen egg on the sands. That is the reason they are brought there. They probably wouldn't even consider the other eggs as options.
Concur, that is a distinct possibility.
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Old Mar 14 2008, 04:27 AM   #165
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

read some of the posts before replying, Kylara was a creature of her environment, raised as a Lord Holder's child, full-blood even, expecting to marry someone of similar rank, when poof-gone bye-bye candidate for Ramoth's hatching ( didn't happen, but brought in for Prideth's) during the time she did bounce her way from weyr to weyr to weyr, yes Lessa was jealous of Kylara's attitude, and her being a virgin made it worse, likely Lessa's inexperience intensified the attitude, though there were few mentions of Lessa's attitude being directly expressed at Kylara. The original plan was to have her as a junior Weyrwoman after the timing stint was up but F'lar decided to put her and the rest south. saw T'bor being called a wimp, can't see that, he couldn't control his temper, which was a response Kylara liked, she much preferred making people lose control around her.... succomb to lust, blow up whichever, those who didn't earned her ire because they didn't work the way they were supposed to. the attitudes of Brekke and Kylara were from the same cloth. Kylara WAS raised to be the person to delegate the drudges and other unworthies to the tasks she had set. Brekke was.... (farmercraft?) crafthall bred, and her initial response was to fix problems presented, regardless of whose job it was supposed to be. this DID set up the codependancy fast. Brekke got the work done before Kylara noticed it, Kylara saw it as her work was getting done, as a Lady holder's should, with efficiency, and possibly even without her need to notice. but neither of them were able to make an acceptable transition to thought of what weyr life required. Lessa made some, but the idea of being mated by ANY rider but F'lar ( one husband..... this remind anyone of hold upbringing?)

Kylara did drop the sexual restraints held in place by her being female in the holds, and took up the male side which she decided was her due ( her and trhella seemed to have that flaw.... if denied what was due them then they took it despite protests) but kept the other ideals that nobody could shake from her.... or beat out of her for that matter ( bruises mentioned in DQ). Male side from TWD, of half bloods being acceptable..... if sired by lord holders....

Last edited by ghost8772; Mar 14 2008 at 04:29 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old Mar 14 2008, 01:56 PM   #166
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

Ghost, I couldn't even read that post. Please learn the difference between commas and periods.
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Old Mar 14 2008, 03:07 PM   #167
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

I say there are two kinds of evil, those who cause pain for their pleasure, and those who end up causing pain for their benefit whether it causes other people pain or not.

Kylara was evil in the fact she did what she wanted whether it caused others harm or not. To me that is still evil and just as bad if not worse then the other.

Those who get pleasure in causing pain directly are messed in the head somehow. Those who cause pain indirectly with their actions but don't care if they do or not are sane, know they shouldn't do it, but still do it anyway.
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Old Mar 15 2008, 02:26 AM   #168
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

Having re-read DQ, I'll stand by my previous assessment of Kylara being maliciously self-centered. She willfully did the wrong things without regard for others and specifically to spite or harm others, and even her dragon did not spark enough concern for her to abate her activities. She was obviously "perverted" in the sense that she enjoyed sexual practices predominantly regarded as deviant, apparently being a submissive who enjoyed activities that were "rough" at a minimum, but probably amounted to outright sado-masochism. The rider of the watch dragon at Nabol is clearly disgusted by her in every respect, stating of what he observed Kylara and Meron doing when he burst in on them that "you don't abuse your dragon that way" and whatever they were doing produced pronounced bruising in areas that aren't incidental to vigorous "normal" sex. This clearly implies that Kylara had no regard for Prideth's well-being, and that she was doing something harmful to Prideth (so ordinary sex, even of an urgent and passionate variety is out as a possibility) and it is clearly implied that this contributed to Prideth rising in competition to Wirenth.

The simple proximity of another female obviously isn't enough of a trigger, otherwise the other queens would not have been able to function to try to break up the battle. Another queen must obviously be near estrus, but still, it's a long way from High Reaches Weyr to Nabol, so it seems that Prideth's incipient estrus and proximity weren't the only triggers. Kylara and Meron contributed.

Kylara also deliberately and inappropriately pursued men in the Weyrs, always to her advantage and often specifically to spite others. F'lar bedded her, but turned her out in favor of Lessa. F'nor refused to bed her. I believe another bronze rider was stated as being immune to her charms. There was absolutely nothing stated in mitigation in DQ about any of Kylara's activities; nothing excusing them. They were clearly willful and Kylara was clearly the one to blame.

Despite the precedent of her half-sister Thella, we cannot even blame Kylara's upbringing because brother Larad turned out okay, despite the perversions of his sister and half-sister.
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Old Mar 15 2008, 09:41 AM   #169
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

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Originally Posted by ElectricDragon View Post
Despite the precedent of her half-sister Thella, we cannot even blame Kylara's upbringing because brother Larad turned out okay, despite the perversions of his sister and half-sister.
I'm going to nitpick against the logic of this. Gender roles on Pern are very different for men and women, and therefore their upbringing is likely to be quite different -- even in the same family. You'd need to show me another daughter that turned out okay to convince me that their upbringing was faultless.

In fact, aren't we told that the girls were cosseted and spoiled, or at least that Kylara was? Certainly their very self-centeredness points to that. Rannelly, Kylara's nurse/assistant/whatever had been with her since childhood, right? She certainly supported Kylara's self-centeredness rather than standing up to it and insisting on better behavior.
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Old Mar 15 2008, 10:20 AM   #170
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

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I'm going to nitpick against the logic of this. Gender roles on Pern are very different for men and women, and therefore their upbringing is likely to be quite different -- even in the same family. You'd need to show me another daughter that turned out okay to convince me that their upbringing was faultless.

In fact, aren't we told that the girls were cosseted and spoiled, or at least that Kylara was? Certainly their very self-centeredness points to that. Rannelly, Kylara's nurse/assistant/whatever had been with her since childhood, right? She certainly supported Kylara's self-centeredness rather than standing up to it and insisting on better behavior.
That's a good point, but there is no reference to any of the other Telgar women going bad. Of course, I'm not certain there are other Telgar women. Still and all, Kylara made her choices and they were deliberate.
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Old Mar 15 2008, 03:06 PM   #171
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

Well, we know that Thella's would-be husband got another, more biddable daughter instead!

Quote:
The rider of the watch dragon at Nabol is clearly disgusted by her in every respect, stating of what he observed Kylara and Meron doing when he burst in on them that "you don't abuse your dragon that way" and whatever they were doing produced pronounced bruising in areas that aren't incidental to vigorous "normal" sex. This clearly implies that Kylara had no regard for Prideth's well-being, and that she was doing something harmful to Prideth (so ordinary sex, even of an urgent and passionate variety is out as a possibility) and it is clearly implied that this contributed to Prideth rising in competition to Wirenth.
That never occurred to me, and I'm not sure I agree completely. I don't see why simply having normal passionate sex while a mating flight is going on overhead wouldn't be considered abusing Prideth, and wouldn't be enough to set her off. And by the time the other queens arrived, they were in Emergency Mode.

Still, something to consider!
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Old Mar 16 2008, 03:05 PM   #172
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

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Originally Posted by ElectricDragon View Post
Having re-read DQ, I'll stand by my previous assessment of Kylara being maliciously self-centered. She willfully did the wrong things without regard for others and specifically to spite or harm others, and even her dragon did not spark enough concern for her to abate her activities. She was obviously "perverted" in the sense that she enjoyed sexual practices predominantly regarded as deviant, apparently being a submissive who enjoyed activities that were "rough" at a minimum, but probably amounted to outright sado-masochism. The rider of the watch dragon at Nabol is clearly disgusted by her in every respect, stating of what he observed Kylara and Meron doing when he burst in on them that "you don't abuse your dragon that way" and whatever they were doing produced pronounced bruising in areas that aren't incidental to vigorous "normal" sex. This clearly implies that Kylara had no regard for Prideth's well-being, and that she was doing something harmful to Prideth (so ordinary sex, even of an urgent and passionate variety is out as a possibility) and it is clearly implied that this contributed to Prideth rising in competition to Wirenth.
First, I think you're being rather unfair to a large percentage of consenting adults.

Second, there's absolutely no basis in fact for what I've bolded. She's displayed bruises on her arms in the past (easily consistent with just a firm hold), and there's no evidence at all that she doesn't leave her partners in a similar state.

Thirdly, if you think certain body areas are off-limits in normal sex, I feel rather sorry for your partners.

Fourthly, it's NOT 'clearly implied' that Kylara doing something other than vanilla sex is what triggered Prideth to rise. Good sex of any variety would have done it, and it's THAT the watch rider refers to as abuse - i.e. not paying enough attention to your dragon's sexual state and that of the other queens in the Weyr, and failing to act accordingly. If she hadn't been having sex, Prideth may have risen anyway. If Nabol had been a few hundred kilometres further off, she might not have done regardless of what Kylara was up to.

The simple fact is that Kylara should have been aware that both queens were close to rising, and known how to act in those circumstances. That's how she abused Prideth, not by doing whatever floated her boat with Meron on any other occasion than the day in question (except that Prideth was generally rather bored hanging around Nabol all the time, but that's hardly reason to have the woman hung, drawn and quartered...).
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Old Mar 17 2008, 01:55 AM   #173
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

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First, I think you're being rather unfair to a large percentage of consenting adults.

Second, there's absolutely no basis in fact for what I've bolded. She's displayed bruises on her arms in the past (easily consistent with just a firm hold), and there's no evidence at all that she doesn't leave her partners in a similar state.

Thirdly, if you think certain body areas are off-limits in normal sex, I feel rather sorry for your partners.

Fourthly, it's NOT 'clearly implied' that Kylara doing something other than vanilla sex is what triggered Prideth to rise. Good sex of any variety would have done it, and it's THAT the watch rider refers to as abuse - i.e. not paying enough attention to your dragon's sexual state and that of the other queens in the Weyr, and failing to act accordingly. If she hadn't been having sex, Prideth may have risen anyway. If Nabol had been a few hundred kilometres further off, she might not have done regardless of what Kylara was up to.

The simple fact is that Kylara should have been aware that both queens were close to rising, and known how to act in those circumstances. That's how she abused Prideth, not by doing whatever floated her boat with Meron on any other occasion than the day in question (except that Prideth was generally rather bored hanging around Nabol all the time, but that's hardly reason to have the woman hung, drawn and quartered...).
1) I don't know as I'm being unfair to anyone. Even the people I've known who like rough stuff don't much get into walking away from it banged up enough to leave bruises in places like their biceps. And I never said Kylara and Meron couldn't get their kicks however they wanted to, I just pointed out that most consenting adults wouldn't want to get them that way. "Ow! That hurts!" and "Ooh, la la!" really aren't that easy to confuse. And maybe she gave as good as she got, but she doesn't strike me as the type. As if it matters.

2) I'm sorry, I've known any number of folks with some fairly vigorous--even extreme--tastes in intimate recreation and what they chose to do did not leave a lot of visible marks, if any at all. Tenderness in some areas of primary friction, sure, but heavy bruises in main limbs? Almost never, and it wasn't something they cared to repeat if it did happen. The attitude was typically "Yeah, we messed that up," or "Things went too far--we won't be doing that again." Unless Kylara is one of those rare types that bruises from a hard look, we're talking something that's out of the ordinary. And the people that got into the rough stuff were a distinct minority. Even in the service it was not a prevalent thing.

3) Well that point gives a whole new meaning to "Stick it in your ear!" LOL! I generally find there's pretty good mutual agreement on what's "off limits" and what isn't, and crossing the line produces a "Hey!" a slap and an end to the fun. But my point had nothing to do with "body parts." It had to do with touching versus hitting. It had to do with holding versus gripping hard enough to do damage. I've seen the occasional bump and ding picked up in the act, and a goose-egg from a headboard. I've also seen what Kylara was sporting on some pretty hard-used whores on Texas Street in Pusan. Seeing it in person your first reaction isn't "Wow, she must have had a great time!" it was "If I find out who did that, I'll make him look the same."

4) Oh, please! You're trying to have it both ways. You've gone out of your way to push the interpretation in other discussions that the Weyrs are good to go for just about anything sexually, yet the watch dragon's rider is put off. Not just by the situation with Prideth. That gave him his initial impulse to act, knowing full well what was probably going on in the Lord Holder's apartment. Yet when he breaks in, what he sees brings him up halt nonetheless and adds urgency to his breaking it up. That, combined with the evidence that Kylara comes away from these sessions with physical damage implies something out of the ordinary. And if dragonriders are so jaded, just what would put them off? And why would another dragonrider clearly pick up on his intimation of what was taking place and be similarly disgusted? Either your interpretation of Weyr sexual morality and ethics is off, or Kylara is off. Take your pick.

Sure, Kylara should have been more aware, but we already knew she was a narcissistic idiot. Sure, it was a bad idea to be near another queen rising, and having sex at the time certainly didn't help. Having rough sex and putting her dragon in a sympathetically induced aggressive mood, certainly helps even less. In fact, making her dragon have to put up with standing by and doing nothing while she's being hurt--even if she is consenting--sounds like a pretty poor way to treat her dragon. Even--What's the word?--"abusive."

Having sex doesn't hurt your dragon. Dragonriders do that all the time and dragons don't blink one eyelid out of three. Threaten or harm a rider and dragons react instantly! Prideth outright dislikes Meron and being at Nabol, and this clearly implies a certain degree of draconic animosity, and about the only thing that arouses that is a threat or harm to the rider.

Did Kylara "abuse" Prideth by being unaware she was about to rise? Not unless Lessa abused Ramoth and Brekke abused Wirenth in this regard. I think we'll have to chuck that notion.

Did Kylara "abuse" Prideth by being too near High Reaches? No, that was accidental. It's not like anyone told her via Prideth, or even via the watch dragon at Nabol. They just noted that she was "safely" out of the Weyr and gave it no more thought.

Did Kylara "abuse" Prideth by having sex? I think we can chuck that one outright given all the times dragonriders have had sex and the dragons didn't care or even thought it was a good idea, or even enjoyed it vicariously.

Did Kylara "abuse" Prideth by boring her? Not unless dozens of dragonriders who bored their dragons by staking out beaches for fire-lizard clutches, or going on their own assignations did so. I think we can set that aside.

Did Kylara "abuse" Prideth by not caring for her physically? Yes, although she rectified that when she noticed it, but that clearly has nothing whatsoever to do with the context of this situation.

Did Kylara "abuse" Prideth by ignoring her intellectually? Yes, but that's nothing that the watch dragon rider could know or see to comment on, and it's also clearly not in the context of this situation.

Did Kylara abuse Prideth by distressing her mentally by making her put up with a situation that the dragon found basically repugnant? BINGO--we have a winner! Whatever Kylara was doing, and whether or not she gave as good as she got, it upset Prideth and not because it was sex. Whatever Kylara was doing, it also obviously upset the watch dragon rider, who already knew she was having sex, so it obviously wasn't sex within the bounds of what that dragonrider considered acceptable. It was also something that clearly crossed the boundaries of what he immediately recognized as being bad for the dragon. It was also something so clearly self-evidently inflammatory that another dragon rider instantly commiserated with his reaction.

And their reactions were decidedly unsympathetic. Prideth and Kylara being too near--that could be chalked up to accident and they could actually be held somewhat blameless. Just a tragedy. Kylara having sex at that moment, again, really bad luck and a tragedy, but again possibly not something to garner active blame. Kylara missing Prideth's condition; doesn't reflect well on Kylara, but something culpable? The reaction would be that it was an unsurprising tragedy. But to have no sympathy whatsoever, to blame Kylara entirely, and to seriously entertain the suggestions that she be killed? And to reject that, frankly merciful notion and cruelly decide to let her live a half-life every dragonrider fears worse than death? That implies that Kylara was doing something far, far beyond the pale. And given the evidence of Moreta's Ruathan liaison, banging a Lord Holder isn't beyond the pale.

What Kylara was doing with Meron, although certainly within her rights, was, in fact, what was abusing Prideth. The watch dragon rider knew it, and Kylara had to have, because at some point Kylara would have had to warn Prideth off and/or soothe her distress and convince her that she wasn't in danger. In essence, Kylara had to have told Prideth in effect, "Quiet down you silly ninny, I'm fine and I'm going this for me, even though it distresses you." And that's exactly the kind of narcissistic behavior that fits in with Kylara's personality, and it is most distinctly abusive of Prideth.

And one last item: Just for the record, where did I ever suggest hanging, drawing and quartering Kylara?
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Old Mar 17 2008, 02:09 AM   #174
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

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Well, we know that Thella's would-be husband got another, more biddable daughter instead!

That never occurred to me, and I'm not sure I agree completely. I don't see why simply having normal passionate sex while a mating flight is going on overhead wouldn't be considered abusing Prideth, and wouldn't be enough to set her off. And by the time the other queens arrived, they were in Emergency Mode.

Still, something to consider!
Deliberately having passionate sex with your dragon nearby after deliberately positioning your dragon near another queen on a mating flight would be abusive. However, Kylara did not know there was a mating flight taking place, or that it was coming her way. Having passionate sex while your dragon's around is no crime. It's outright ops-normal for a dragonrider. Even having passionate sex when your dragon is near rising isn't a crime. Brekke does it with F'nor, and F'nor (who ought to be old and experienced enough to know) initiated the event, yet it doesn't cause Wirenth to suddenly detonate.

So why any of this would be considered "abuse" vice "misfortune" I can't imagine. I'm sure the watch dragon rider, knowing why Kylara came to Nabol (it being no secret given her open and wanton ways), scrambled for the Lord Holder's apartment when he became aware of the flight to warn Kylara about what was happening and to take action. So why, when he entered the room, would he be shocked to find her having sex? Why would he consider her having sex to be abusive of Prideth. The implication is that something clearly out-of-the-ordinary is going on, something so unusual as to shock a dragonrider who embodies the liberal limit of Pern's sexual mores.

The only way that sex could be inherently abusive of one's dragon is if something about that sex distresses the dragon. About the only thing that ever distresses a dragon short of Threadscore is threat or injury to the rider. Given the clear evidence that the sexual activity that Kylara engages in with Meron is physically punishing, then that is what must be abusive of Prideth: forcing Prideth to endure that distress while she seeks her own pleasure without regard for her dragon's feelings.
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Old Mar 17 2008, 05:55 AM   #175
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You know what? How about we just agree to disagree on this score? Because talking to you is like banging my head against a brick wall.

I do wonder why you bother, because your verbosity doesn't convince anyone, and your attitude certainly isn't winning you much in the way of respect/friendship. Oh, and don't bother answering me, because you've made it into my ignore-list. That takes some doing.

Toodle-pip.
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Old Mar 17 2008, 07:12 AM   #176
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

The thing is that Kylara should have known.
F'nor had noticed a while back that Wirenth would rise soon and Canth definitely knew.
Vanira knew that Wirenth was about to rise and someone, my book's in my room and I am in lab (in between spectra), mentioned that Pridith was near rising, so if Kylara didn't know, everyone else did. Actually, that was Vanira too.
So either Kylara knew and she didn't care, or she had become so distant that she no longer noticed.
Now, as the dragon's arousal affects the rider, the reciprocal is surely possible as it is a double bond. Obviously female dragons have a cyclical arousal, so that normally human activity has a limited effect. They might feel satisfied and happy like Ruth or merely disinterested, but when they are near that point in their cycle, it might just tip the scales.
Pridith had been known to be off-cycle anyway and presumably normally a rider would take care not to be overly aroused when their dragon was ill.
Presumably that was what the other rider was objecting to.
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Old Mar 17 2008, 11:34 AM   #177
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

Wow, I never really thought about the characters the way you guys seem to be able to. I guess I see Brekke a bit differently than you annareth. I think Cheryl had mentioned it before but I'll say it again. Brekke was never given the chance to prove that she could recover from a mating flight. I mean F'lar basically raped Lessa at first and even said that it was as well as rape for a time afterwords. I wonder then if their dragons had not been mating how would Lessa have acted. I imagine she would have fought and denied him as well.
Anne developed Brekke into something more than a half person after Wirenth's going between and because of that I'm pretty confident that she would have gotten over the mating flights. I'm do think she would have been faithful to F'nor at all other times though.
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Old Mar 17 2008, 01:29 PM   #178
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I'm going to nitpick against the logic of this. Gender roles on Pern are very different for men and women, and therefore their upbringing is likely to be quite different -- even in the same family. You'd need to show me another daughter that turned out okay to convince me that their upbringing was faultless.

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In fact, aren't we told that the girls were cosseted and spoiled, or at least that Kylara was? Certainly their very self-centeredness points to that. Rannelly, Kylara's nurse/assistant/whatever had been with her since childhood, right? She certainly supported Kylara's self-centeredness rather than standing up to it and insisting on better behavior.
I was wondering when someone would mention this. I remember quite clearly an excerpt from Renagades. Larad was reminising about Thella. How thier father had indeed spoiled her and let/encouraged her to do things that were not ladylike. I do not remember if the former lord holder had been the same way with Kylara, but I don't have any reason to think that he'd have treated his daughters that differently. Also, Thella had not been reprimanded when she was out of line, so it makes sense that she would expect everything and have no respect for boundries(the same goes for Kylara). I also seem to remember that Larads dad had a very healthy sexual appetite. Something that had been mentioned in describing Kylara.
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Old Mar 17 2008, 01:33 PM   #179
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I tend to have very little respect for the weepy whiney female types. Brekke was a loser from the get-go for me. The fact she was never given a chance to prove she could deal, though, wasn't a character flaw, it was a romance-writer authorial cop-out.

Why it's considered "abuse" and not "misfortune"? Simple answer. It's Kylara. She's written to be a two-dimensional villain and of course everyone hates her, they're supposed to because she's bad so everyone hates her. Once you start really looking at the plot, it's not very well-constructed. Bad guys are bad because the main characters say they are.

I would LOVE to have a look at the allegedly-so-bad-she-destroyed-it first draft of Dragonquest. The more I try to see how what was written would work as a movie (it basically wouldn't) the more I realize it's disjointed and plot-schizo. I really would love to see what Anne originally had in mind and why she felt she had to scrap it.
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Old Mar 18 2008, 02:08 AM   #180
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The thing is that Kylara should have known.
F'nor had noticed a while back that Wirenth would rise soon and Canth definitely knew.
Vanira knew that Wirenth was about to rise and someone, my book's in my room and I am in lab (in between spectra), mentioned that Pridith was near rising, so if Kylara didn't know, everyone else did. Actually, that was Vanira too.
So either Kylara knew and she didn't care, or she had become so distant that she no longer noticed.
Now, as the dragon's arousal affects the rider, the reciprocal is surely possible as it is a double bond. Obviously female dragons have a cyclical arousal, so that normally human activity has a limited effect. They might feel satisfied and happy like Ruth or merely disinterested, but when they are near that point in their cycle, it might just tip the scales.
Pridith had been known to be off-cycle anyway and presumably normally a rider would take care not to be overly aroused when their dragon was ill.
Presumably that was what the other rider was objecting to.
I don't know if we can presume that.

If we could I think the choice of words would have been more along the lines of wondering how she could have been so stupid, or careless, and deep regret for her losing a dragon as well--not rage against her and blaming her for it. And the word "abuse" is very suggestive.

Given that Robinton later outright refers to Meron as "perverted" in Dragondrums, and Kylara was fully in tune with his preferred entertainments, I'll stand by extending the description to her and my interpretation of events. Something was happening in Meron's quarters that went beyond even what the fairly liberal people of Pern considered run-of-the-mill sexual activity.

S'goral clearly identifies that what Meron was doing (to Kylara) was what was "setting Prideth off" as the last straw in a series of inputs including being off-cycle, close to rising and seeing a flight overhead. This implies that absent this last stimulus, perhaps Prideth would not have been triggered.

How S'goral puts it is very interesting. He doesn't say "what she was doing" as you would expect of her instigation or "what they were doing" as you would expect of observing two people in the act but "what he was doing." Given how Kylara is marked earlier in the story, and S'goral's choice of words, followed by the use of the word "abuse" and knowing what we do of the human/dragon bond, and what would cause a dragon to dislike a person, the clear implication is that Meron is doing something to Kylara that is not overtly mutual upon observation.

This in turn applies that it was something physically rough and that Kylara was the recipient of the attention in a way that did not look mutual, but submissive. Dragons don't like their riders threatened or hurt, and if Kylara was submitting to being hurt to entertain her own pleasure without regard to her dragon (who is along for the ride in that regard as much as Kylara is along for the ride on a mating flight) that would certainly constitute abusing one's dragon.

Not a pretty picture to most people, granted, but the language doesn't really make sense otherwise. About the closest you could come to making a case for misconduct on Kylara's part otherwise would not be the sex, but taking an off-cycle dragon out of the Weyr at all. But that would provoke a charge of carelessness or stupidity, not abuse. Abuse implies trauma and the only thing that could traumatize the dragon would be to traumatize the rider. If the rider is hurt incidentally, this is not a case of the rider abusing the dragon. The only context that makes sense with the language is if the rider willfully entertains the trauma.
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Old Mar 18 2008, 02:15 AM   #181
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Wow, I never really thought about the characters the way you guys seem to be able to. I guess I see Brekke a bit differently than you annareth. I think Cheryl had mentioned it before but I'll say it again. Brekke was never given the chance to prove that she could recover from a mating flight. I mean F'lar basically raped Lessa at first and even said that it was as well as rape for a time afterwords. I wonder then if their dragons had not been mating how would Lessa have acted. I imagine she would have fought and denied him as well.
Anne developed Brekke into something more than a half person after Wirenth's going between and because of that I'm pretty confident that she would have gotten over the mating flights. I'm do think she would have been faithful to F'nor at all other times though.
Brekke never even proved she could make it through a mating flight. There were thoughts of letting Wirenth go between vice mate with one of the bronzes. Those thoughts were something you can't blame anyone by Brekke for. The girl refused to give up her hang-ups for her dragon. In a way, she's a disturbing parallel for Kylara who refused to give up her pleasures for her dragon. Both characters put their own well-being first, one actively and one passively, and both paid the price.

When Lessa came too with F'lar in intimate proximity she had the strength of will and presence of mind to take his direction and bring Ramoth and Mnementh back. Can you see Brekke doing that coming out of dragon rapture and having someone other than F'nor in her face? I see Brekke more likely to freak at that point and would they still have lost Wirenth and possibly the bronze? I really don't think there was any chance of Canth catching and beating the bronzes given his late arrival, so Brekke coming too with someone other than F'nor was the likely endgame but for the queens' battle.
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Old Mar 18 2008, 02:29 AM   #182
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I tend to have very little respect for the weepy whiney female types. Brekke was a loser from the get-go for me. The fact she was never given a chance to prove she could deal, though, wasn't a character flaw, it was a romance-writer authorial cop-out.

Why it's considered "abuse" and not "misfortune"? Simple answer. It's Kylara. She's written to be a two-dimensional villain and of course everyone hates her, they're supposed to because she's bad so everyone hates her. Once you start really looking at the plot, it's not very well-constructed. Bad guys are bad because the main characters say they are.

I would LOVE to have a look at the allegedly-so-bad-she-destroyed-it first draft of Dragonquest. The more I try to see how what was written would work as a movie (it basically wouldn't) the more I realize it's disjointed and plot-schizo. I really would love to see what Anne originally had in mind and why she felt she had to scrap it.
There are a rather suspicious number of climactic climaxes, aren't there... LOL!

I think there was a little more to the "abuse" than simply Kylara being the villain. I think there was an intentional parallel between Kylara's selfishness and Brekke's selfishness and how it ultimately cost them both their dragons. So I don't actually view Brekke as a "good guy" in the story. Also, I don't see everyone as "hating" Kylara. F'lar actually gives her her due, even if he doesn't want to. T'bor honestly has--inexplicable to me--a genuine affection for her. F'nor doesn't respect her, but doesn't actively hate her. Lessa might hate her, but she's as territorial as Ramoth (and well, she did sort of spend her formative years patiently taking back her territory...) and has good cause. Even Brekke is more frustrated and disgusted with her than actually hates her at least early on. The genuine hate for Kylara comes after the fact, except for Lessa, and well, she has some understandable rage issues.

Dragonquest has a lot of plot threads, but it doesn't bother me. It appears to be a construct of multiple short stories that has been chapterized, unlike DF which treats them as separate books in the same cover. But it's really a lot less complicated than many plots I've read (e.g. something like Red Storm Rising, by Clancy to name one). I'm not sure what you think you'd find in that original DQ draft. If the author felt it was worse, you might discover that she was right, not that a gem got swept into the trash. What is it you think you'd see?
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Old Mar 18 2008, 07:56 AM   #183
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Honey, Kylara is female. If the pain of that was enough to upset Pridith what about the five births or the self-induced abortions or even the period pains? Now I've only endured the latter and not very badly but I can tell you that it about as much fun as a migraine (and yeah I work through both of them) or presumably being kicked in the balls very hard.
You don't hear about dragons panicking every month because their rider has cramps or rising because of someone giving birth.
Most probably the dragons learn very quickly and can tell when pain is anticipated, however vaguely.
Now, you'll probably counter with Kylara not knowing what is coming but, be serious, do you think that she didn't vaguely know what is happening in a general sense?
Anyway, if Kylara was in pain, surely the reaction would be to try to protect her, not to rise?
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Old Mar 18 2008, 08:26 AM   #184
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Electric Dragon
I will be the first to admit that I'm an optimist through and through. I would like to believe that Brekke would have pulled through the mating flight. She was stronger than she let herself believe, if she wasn't she probably wouldn't have impressed. Sure it may have been tough on her but that's life, get over it. F'nor would have helped her in his own way.

Anyway, your opinion is your own as mine is mine. I wouldn't want to change that. It keeps life interesting
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Old Mar 18 2008, 08:33 AM   #185
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She had control over Wirenth until it all went wrong and she had a very strong sense of duty. If F'nor did not win though, I can imagine that she might need him and possibly even people like Vanira and Pilgra to help with the aftermath. F'nor noted that the bronzeriders were used to Kylara and we can suppose that whoever won would not think to be in any way gentle.
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Old Mar 18 2008, 12:04 PM   #186
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Honey, Kylara is female. If the pain of that was enough to upset Pridith what about the five births or the self-induced abortions or even the period pains? Now I've only endured the latter and not very badly but I can tell you that it about as much fun as a migraine (and yeah I work through both of them) or presumably being kicked in the balls very hard.
You don't hear about dragons panicking every month because their rider has cramps or rising because of someone giving birth.
Most probably the dragons learn very quickly and can tell when pain is anticipated, however vaguely.
Now, you'll probably counter with Kylara not knowing what is coming but, be serious, do you think that she didn't vaguely know what is happening in a general sense?
Anyway, if Kylara was in pain, surely the reaction would be to try to protect her, not to rise?
It's not just the pain, it is the fact that someone is inflicting the pain. With childbirth, cramps, migraines, etc., noone is inflicting the pain. Meron is inflicting the pain on Kylara.

And Kylara was using the pain to enhance her sexual feelings. So the enhanced sexual feelings is what would have set Prideth off.

GH
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Old Mar 18 2008, 12:43 PM   #187
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It's not just the pain, it is the fact that someone is inflicting the pain. With childbirth, cramps, migraines, etc., noone is inflicting the pain. Meron is inflicting the pain on Kylara.

And Kylara was using the pain to enhance her sexual feelings. So the enhanced sexual feelings is what would have set Prideth off.

GH
Which was what I was saying, it was not the pain, it was the sexual feelings.
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Old Mar 18 2008, 05:23 PM   #188
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

Some of what E-D said up there makes some sense to me, but I'm not going to try and single it out right now

But this:
Quote:
When Lessa came too with F'lar in intimate proximity she had the strength of will and presence of mind to take his direction and bring Ramoth and Mnementh back. Can you see Brekke doing that coming out of dragon rapture and having someone other than F'nor in her face? I see Brekke more likely to freak at that point and would they still have lost Wirenth and possibly the bronze?
If you'll recall, Brekke herself was absolutely terrified that that would happen.
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Old Mar 18 2008, 06:59 PM   #189
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Alright so, I read some of the posts about Brekke and they about made me sick... some called her selfish for being to nervouse to have sex for her first time? Jesus!

Brekke was young, scared, shy, and I found her to be the sweetest character in the book... I felt Kylara was a bitch... and she asked for what was coming to her by doing the stupid stuff she did... Brekke really didn't ask for anything... Kylara and Brekke are two different people!

Brekke seemed selfless to me not selfish... the only reason she was able to over come the loss of her dragon is through F'nor the one and only love of her life, and her firelizards....

Kylara was a fluzy, and can we really blame Brekke for loving a man? Maybe if Kylara was more like Brekke none of that would have happend... if Kylara had any sense........ ugh....

Sorry sex isn't as easy for some people as others, some people feel sex means love, and I believe thats what Brekke felt, and for her to know she wouldn't love the man she was going to have sex with frightened her.... Kylara didn't care who it was as long as she got some... and she sure did get alot!

Kylaras character to me is atrocious! NO I don't think Kylara evil, but I believe her to be a very awful character, her traits make me sick, and I honestly hate people who act like that.... Brekke, the most innocent character of all, was blamed for this? F'nor was my favorite character... and he loved Brekke... I don't believe Kylara was loved by any character, like truly loved anyway... LOOK what she did to her own dragon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just saying :P
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Old Mar 18 2008, 07:08 PM   #190
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Juicy, a hint: you only need ONE period between sentences.
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Old Mar 18 2008, 07:29 PM   #191
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I know I just like the periods for the hell of it I suppose, I always do that my bad, I guess I hope it will get the point across?
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Old Mar 18 2008, 08:00 PM   #192
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Possibly not. Some people find things like that hard to read. Welcome to the forum by the way!
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Old Mar 18 2008, 08:02 PM   #193
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Thank you very much, I suppose it would be difficult to read. For some reason I always do that though, its very difficult for me not too in this post in fact.

lol
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Old Mar 18 2008, 08:13 PM   #194
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It becomes a lot easier with practice (and in using spell checkers and the edit button (seriously, that's what makes my posts vaguely readable))
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Old Mar 18 2008, 08:15 PM   #195
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lol, spell check is always nice. I suppose I will have to learn. This is the first forum I have joined, and I'm very young so I suppose I have time!
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Old Mar 19 2008, 12:15 AM   #196
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Which was what I was saying, it was not the pain, it was the sexual feelings.
GH has keyed in on the same thing I have. It's not the sex. If it was, Wirenth should have gone off from what F'nor and Brekke were doing.

Everything points to Meron and Kylara's interaction as something more than just sex. The difference was the violence. It was stressing Prideth out, and piling that on top of being off-cyle, near rising, and too near a flight and you get a disaster.

I suspect violent sex is something that dragonriders just don't get to do out of necessity because of the bond with their dragon. Just as you don't have the choice of being celibate and opting out of mating flights, or of being monogamous if your dragon gets flown by a dragon that doesn't belong to your weyrmate, or of recklessly courting duels. These are things that you just don't do and every dragonrider knows it.

I feel sorry for Prideth. I doubt the beast could even really understand what was going through Kylara's head. Dragons don't have the cognitive capability to understand S&M or B&D. They are, at base, empathic creatures. They feel more than they think and consider the confusing and distressing impulses Prideth would be getting from Kylara while she was with Meron.

One second she's getting a pulse of pleasure and the next she's getting an abrupt jolt of pain, then nervous or even frightened anticipation, maybe even overtones of being restrained. The poor beast was probably half-freaked and thoroughly confused. Her sexual hormones would be running high at the same time as her fight-or-flight hormones, and all of it would be warring with her limited cognitive abilities.

We're talking about one frustrated dragon here, that's totally keyed up. She can't do anything to intervene to "protect" her rider, who confusingly doesn't want to be protected, and is also confusingly enjoying herself, and is immured in a Hold where Prideth can't even reach her if she wanted to. This is a creature that probably wants to lash out, in frustration, if nothing else...and over top flies another queen with a bevy of bronzes. Just where is Prideth going to lash out? And challenging the other queen settles both impulses, the sexual and the fight-or-flight. Perhaps, absent the latter, maybe Prideth wouldn't have been set off. Perhaps she would. But given the presence of that impulse I'd say it pretty much guaranteed she would.

Deliberately subjecting your dragon to something that distresses your dragon is abusive. This is no different than if a dragonrider sought frequent duels, just because he could. He might be totally confident in his abilities, but his dragon's gnawing his talons off in anxiety. Making your dragon a bystander to an S&M session would be no different.
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Old Mar 19 2008, 05:01 AM   #197
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You're not listening to a word I say are you? You're just reading the bits you want to read.

I've just looked in the book:

1) the firelizards are not disturbed. You've read Dragon Singer, when Menolly was even threatened, her friends reacted immediately.

2) The passage goes: "The Lord did't want to be disturbed. Well, I disturbed him. I stopped him doing what he was doing. And that's what was doing it! Setting Prideth rising. That and being so close to rising herself, and seeing a mating flight right over her, so to speak."

That passage does not suggest any more than "normal" sexual activity and strongly suggests that it was sex that was the final trigger.

Tell you what, if you still don't believe me, get someone to kick you in the stomach hard. Wait until you think that the pain's almost gone and get someone to kick you again- harder. Oh yeah and do this for several days every month.
Then say whether a dragon is going to be bothered by a mere slap or burn or lash in comparison to the usual female pains.
Then go and write to yourself because I am fed up of you ignoring anything that doesn't fit with your cosy world view.
You've just annoyed another person to the state of ignoring you!

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Old Mar 19 2008, 10:48 AM   #198
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You're not listening to a word I say are you? You're just reading the bits you want to read.
...
Tell you what, if you still don't believe me, get someone to kick you in the stomach hard. Wait until you think that the pain's almost gone and get someone to kick you again- harder. Oh yeah and do this for several days every month.
Then say whether a dragon is going to be bothered by a mere slap or burn or lash in comparison to the usual female pains.
Then go and write to yourself because I am fed up of you ignoring anything that doesn't fit with your cosy world view.
You've just annoyed another person to the state of ignoring you!
And you're not listening to what we are saying.

It's not just the pain. The point is that someone is inflicting the pain, and the dragon wants to protect the rider, but the rider is telling the dragon that they are not allowed to protect them.

While childbirth and cramps are unarguably painful, NO ONE IS INFLICTING THAT PAIN. And especially since gold dragons can reproduce, they would be the best dragons to understand that those are "NATURAL" pains. So while the dragon would feel the pain, she would know that it is part of a natural cycle, is not being inflicted by someone else on the rider, and would not be distressed.

The pain inflicted by Meron through the BDSM sessions with Kylara would be very "UNNATURAL" to the dragon, and she would want to protect her rider from the one CAUSING the pain. The fact that she is not allowed to protect her rider would be causing even more DISTRESS to the dragon. And as ED mentioned, feeling the pain, the pleasure, the anticipation of both while not being allowed to do anything would be the perfect setup for wanting to act out, and a mating flight overhead, while she is close to her cycle would be the perfect release for all of those confusing and frustrating feelings.

GH
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Old Mar 19 2008, 11:16 AM   #199
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The pain inflicted by Meron through the BDSM sessions with Kylara
For heaven's sake, you cannot use the text as written as a clear implication that BDSM sex took place.

Speculation is one thing, but to make statements like that as fact is utterly specious. The minor bruising and slight aching Kylara displayed earlier in the novel could just as easily have come about from tumbling off a bed or simply being a little vigourous. As canon stands, both are possible scenarios - I won't ever say the BDSM interpretation is impossible - but There. Is. No. Way. to categorically state that one interpretation is the One True Way. You certainly can't say with any certainty at all that they were indulging in BDSM when the two queens fought. They may have been, sure, but they could just have well been enjoying some simple missionary sex - the simple fact is that the text does not go into ANY detail.

I'm leaving the speculation of what BDSM would do to a dragon aside here, but a similar rule applies. Speculate as much as you wish, but PLEASE do not make up hard and fast rules about a situation (that may not have happened at all) to the exclusion of anyone else's interpretation.

We are not Anne. We don't get to tell anyone else that their interpretation is impossible. Saying it's unlikely and backing it up with good evidence (beyond the mere fact of one's own opinion, naturally) is fine, that's all part and parcel of a nice debate. On the other hand, ignoring other points of view completely and stating speculation as fact is just being... well. I don't think you did it intentionally, did you?
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Old Mar 19 2008, 11:22 AM   #200
edith
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

BLOODY HELL!!! Read the bloody passage! That is why I made myself late to lab this morning typing it up!
Firelizards= sunning themselves
firelizards= easily agitated
therefore sleepy lizards does not = agitated lizards!

Also read the passage- that passage is someone talking about not being allowed to see Meron and about what Meron was doing. "Well I disturbed him" naturally leads to you saying that you stopped that person, not that he was the only person doing anything.

Right... I have said this several times and it hasn't sunk in so...

1) firelizards relaxed
2) Dragon rising not going to protect her rider (and look at all the examples of dragons protecting their riders)
3 The passage says stopping Meron because It. Was. Talking. About. Meron.

I don't know why you two are so obsessed with BDSM.
From your argument, if it was the pain and for some unusual reason Pridith was not provoked to protect her rider, surely the anticipated pain is no different to the anticipated pain with cramps and probably far more predictable.
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