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View Poll Results: Kylara, Evil or misunderstood?
Evil through and through! 22 23.66%
I don't think she was Evil but she certainly was no angel 63 67.74%
Purely misunderstood. 2 2.15%
The Purple monkeys are the ones to ask. 6 6.45%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 11 2007, 03:07 AM   #121
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

Yes... I wish we could have seen that flight, especially since Canth did get there... and then Brekke could have stopped worrying so much about loving F'nor.
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Old May 11 2007, 05:36 AM   #122
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Soooo...who here's brave enough or bored enough to head to the FF?

*hides*
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Old Jan 15 2008, 08:33 PM   #123
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Here's my for what it's worth...Kylara was very misunderstood and as a result she was mistreated.

Anareth - I totally agree with your analysis of Kylara!
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Old Jan 18 2008, 02:35 PM   #124
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When I look at these characters in relation to the story, often I see somewhat 2 dimensional plot devices. (Then again most characters are at some point and time, swayed by plotline and the author's whim.) Standing alone they are both quite pitiful individuals. I was never much for Brekke's lack of backbone either, but then again that is why she wasn't senior queenrider. She would make an awesome headwoman if she hadn't been a dragonrider, and riding a queen it would be best if she were never in power, and that's how the story played out.

Kylara.. well, she was created to be the bad guy, all around. Sometimes her continuous evil streak makes absolutely no sense; you'd think she'd have at least a bit more compassion, sense, or pretty much more of anything positive. The fact is that she isn't a real person and was not allowed to evolve into what she would have become naturally. She was the evil bad guy and she stayed that way through the story so we'd all despise her like we were supposed to.. that's just the facts of it. If Kylara were a real person and were allowed to mature and change, she might have ended up differently.

What Lessa did was absolutely terrible, scheming to send the girl off with little training in restraint and common sense, but then again Lessa didn't have much of that herself. Then again Lessa matured to become altogether better, I suppose.. or at least more controllable by F'lar.

Overall, Lessa was playing in character, so I understand what she did. With all the other characters.. bad fathers.. bad Weyrleaders.. bleh. Can't hide behind them for Kylara's issues, and I feel that even if they have been better and was not enabling her, then she'd still be our super bad guy because in these types of stories influenced by romance drama, their has to be a very bad kind of bad guy. Kylara was that tool, so yes, Kylara was indeed a bad girl because that's how she was written. =)
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Old Jan 22 2008, 11:59 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nako View Post
When I look at these characters in relation to the story, often I see somewhat 2 dimensional plot devices. (Then again most characters are at some point and time, swayed by plotline and the author's whim.) Standing alone they are both quite pitiful individuals. I was never much for Brekke's lack of backbone either, but then again that is why she wasn't senior queenrider. She would make an awesome headwoman if she hadn't been a dragonrider, and riding a queen it would be best if she were never in power, and that's how the story played out.

Kylara.. well, she was created to be the bad guy, all around. Sometimes her continuous evil streak makes absolutely no sense; you'd think she'd have at least a bit more compassion, sense, or pretty much more of anything positive. The fact is that she isn't a real person and was not allowed to evolve into what she would have become naturally. She was the evil bad guy and she stayed that way through the story so we'd all despise her like we were supposed to.. that's just the facts of it. If Kylara were a real person and were allowed to mature and change, she might have ended up differently.
I never thought of Kylara as truly evil, as Fax or T'ron were. I thought of her as a selfish, greedy, little itch that never thought about how her actions affected anyone but herself. She never really wanted power (which is what I normally associate with someone truly evil). She just wanted the comforts that she though she deserved. Do I think she's a good person. Heck no. I do think she is a bad person, but I don't think she rises to the label of being truly evil.

GH
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Old Jan 22 2008, 12:49 PM   #126
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I must admit I agree with you, GH.

Also, makes you wonder what sort of upbringing she had, given that Thella was her sister. I'd be far more likely to say Thella was evil than Kylara. And even Thella was mainly acting out because she couldn't adjust to the fact that very few women (if any in her time) were allowed to Hold in their own right.
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Old Jan 22 2008, 01:27 PM   #127
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Honestly? Thella does very little I would consider "evil" and a lot I would consider "symptomatic of mental illness."
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Old Jan 22 2008, 01:33 PM   #128
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Honestly? Thella does very little I would consider "evil" and a lot I would consider "symptomatic of mental illness."
I tend to agree. Being denied what she saw as her birthright snapped her pretty good. By the time she attacked Paradise River Hold she was truly insane.

She would have probably made an effective Lady Holder of Telgar, had she won the Succession. Yes, likely cruel and autocratic but nowhere near what she ended up becoming.
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Old Jan 22 2008, 04:39 PM   #129
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A fair point. Of course, Kylara wasn't exactly mentally sound either.
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Old Jan 22 2008, 04:46 PM   #130
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Honestly? Thella does very little I would consider "evil" and a lot I would consider "symptomatic of mental illness."
But is she so far gone that she no longer recognizes good vs. bad/evil?

Or does she recognize it, but can't help herself and does the bad/evil anyways?

That's the difference that determines whether they're insane or bad/evil.

Would an insane person on PERN think that Dragons were telling them what to do instead of "The Devil"?

GH
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Old Jan 22 2008, 07:11 PM   #131
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At the beginning she's doing what a Lord Holder can get away with- think of Fax!
Later on, after her illness, I'm not sure, she is ill and driven by revenge. I don't think she was thinking straight by then.
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Old Jan 23 2008, 12:59 AM   #132
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No, there's a difference that determines whether they are criminally insane or just insane. There are plenty of people who are totally nuts who aren't criminally insane. A sociopath, for example (cf many serial killers) is insane. They recognize that society considers what they're doing to be wrong. They think that society's rules do not apply to them. They're therefore responsible for their actions, but by no stretch of the imagination are they sane. In Thella's case, no, I don't think she was either a sociopath or a psychopath, but I think she was raised in an environment where normal rules did not apply to her by virtue of her birth (beating a servant, where a lower-class person couldn't do something like that--caste systems come with different rules for the top and the bottom) and then took that view farther--the normal rules of Pern society didn't apply to her because from where she was sitting they were unfair. Rules she found unfair never stopped her before. So when she becomes "Lady Holdless" she's acting according to her upbringing, but now it's against all societal norms for her class. (Not for us--looked at it objectively, Thella's right in much of what she does at the outset because it is in fact, from our modern Western perspective, for her to be denied inheritance and forced into marriage because of her gender.)

The end of the book is pants. Honestly, the more I think on it, the more it has a weird lesbian subtext to it (with Thella as the unnatural woman who's very pointedly skewered by the hero's sword, more or less endorsing the whole "uppity women must be repressed" system) and the physical "illness" is a trite Victorian authorial device to punish the "bad". Basically, the wimpy proper girl (Aramina) is threatened by the butch dyke (Thella) and saved by the proper man (Jayge.) In fact I'm pretty sure I've seen that scenario in Victorian erotica.
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Old Jan 23 2008, 09:13 AM   #133
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

So THAT's what else you read?
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Old Jan 23 2008, 01:34 PM   #134
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Victorian erotica? Sure, though after a while it all gets very repetitive. There's a definite giggle factor involved....
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Old Jan 23 2008, 02:15 PM   #135
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

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I never thought of Kylara as truly evil, as Fax or T'ron were. I thought of her as a selfish, greedy, little itch that never thought about how her actions affected anyone but herself. She never really wanted power (which is what I normally associate with someone truly evil). She just wanted the comforts that she though she deserved. Do I think she's a good person. Heck no. I do think she is a bad person, but I don't think she rises to the label of being truly evil.

GH

How do you figure T'ron was "evil"?
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Old Jan 23 2008, 02:58 PM   #136
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Because he tried to kill F'lar, just as Fax did?

Granted, I have sympathy with the oldtimers, but T'ron had stopped even trying to get along. More stupidity than pure evil, but certainly not a nice person.
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Old Jan 23 2008, 03:36 PM   #137
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

I got the impression that he was tired, out of touch, upset/angry at being superseded by a younger man, who was a relative stranger and rather fed up. F'lar tried to be tactful, but T'bor and, I bet, a lot of the Holders weren't.
Thnk about what D'ram said in DQ.
T'ron couldn't change, he was tired. He began to be spiteful because that was the only victory he felt he could get.
T'kul was, despite not appearing in the book so much, a far more unpleasant character. T'ron was not negligent.
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Old Jan 23 2008, 06:53 PM   #138
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How do you figure T'ron was "evil"?
1. You'll have to forgive me, because I keep forgetting the differences between T'ron and T'kul. When I read the books, I end up just combining their characters (and in a movie trilogy, they'll probably do the same).

2. Anyone that tries to kill the hero of the series without a good reason is somebody that I normally consider "evil" whether they succeed or not. (And they each tried it once.)

3. I'm not sure which was Weyrleader at Southern, but they were both becoming negligent in their Weyrs in the north, and were downright abusive when they were in the south.

4. They were responsible for the kidnapping of a Queen egg.

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Old Jan 23 2008, 07:29 PM   #139
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T'ron was, then he apparently died and T'kul took over.
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Old Jan 23 2008, 07:55 PM   #140
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this needs its own thread really. I'm too tired to respond now but I have an idea.
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Old Jan 24 2008, 04:52 AM   #141
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1. You'll have to forgive me, because I keep forgetting the differences between T'ron and T'kul. When I read the books, I end up just combining their characters (and in a movie trilogy, they'll probably do the same).

2. Anyone that tries to kill the hero of the series without a good reason is somebody that I normally consider "evil" whether they succeed or not. (And they each tried it once.)
Wasn't T'ron mad with grief at the loss of his dragon at that point?

Quote:
3. I'm not sure which was Weyrleader at Southern, but they were both becoming negligent in their Weyrs in the north, and were downright abusive when they were in the south.

4. They were responsible for the kidnapping of a Queen egg.
2 = Diminished responsibility, 3 = Bad leadership, 4 = criminal acts.

I don't think these add up to 'evil'.
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Old Jan 24 2008, 08:56 AM   #142
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It's T'kul that lost Salth.
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Old Jan 24 2008, 09:27 AM   #143
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You're quite right. I was getting the two of them confused again. T'ron did flip out quite irrationally at the Telgar Gather...
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Old Jan 24 2008, 09:41 AM   #144
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You're quite right. I was getting the two of them confused again. T'ron did flip out quite irrationally at the Telgar Gather...
I think that he'd reached the end of his tether. I have a story stuck in my head now...
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Old Jan 24 2008, 12:00 PM   #145
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

T'ron had pretty much had it with F'lar at that point. The Oldtimers got a bum deal (including being named "Oldtimers" - now how would that make you feel?)

I don't feel that T'ron or T'kul were evil.
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Old Jan 24 2008, 09:58 PM   #146
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I think we are supposed to believe that a dragon would never bond with someone who was totally evil. That said, dragons are individuals and some are stronger in various ways than others. I know others don't agree but I've always felt that Kylara charmed (if not subjugated) Prideth long before she hatched. She was simply egotistical and power hungry then, but events warped her into being driven.

As to the Oldtimers, think of the shocks they endured after coming forward. All the non-weyr people they had known all their lives were gone and others were in their places. So many things had changed so drastically some of them could reasonably become a little unhinged by it all. Anyone who has ever relocated to a foreign country will have had only a slight taste of what they must have felt. Or (for those of us who are old enough) if you have returned to a place you once lived and found streets and building mostly the same but the whole place populated by strangers, it does feel odd. Think of all they had to cope with. Yes, for the most part they made the move voluntarily but could any of them ever have fully realized everything it would entail? Personally, I tend to feel sorry for them, in spite of some of the very wrong things some of them did.
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Old Jan 25 2008, 04:57 PM   #147
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Sandi,

I agree The Oldtimers willingly came forward to save Pern, having already fought Thread for decades. They were out of their depth four hundred turns in the future, bewildered, bereft No "counselling" available on Pern to help them cope Yes, they made mistakes, yes, some of them couldn't see past their noses, yes, they tried to cling to what was familiar with negative results

But, as someone who has lived in half a dozen countries (so far ) I have a sneaking sympathy for them
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Old Jan 27 2008, 01:45 AM   #148
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Which is why I don't agree with Anareth's coplete statement. Lessa wanted Kylara out... well, If I were Wyerwoman and I had a junior Queen rider sleeping with everything on a bronze or brown, including chasing after the Weyrleader, I'd take steps to get her out, too! Jealousy would be only a small part of it. Kylara's comment to herself was she couldn't understand how Lessa could have given up the power of being THE Queen Rider by risking herself to bring the Oldtimers foward...... That right there tells me Kylara doesn't have the far-sightness or the selflessness to be the kind of rider Lessa, Brekke, or even some of the Oldtime Queens were.
Certainly getting rid of the minx would promote good order and discipline in the Weyr. A provocateur amongst the critical ranks of the wingleaders and wingseconds would not be welcomed in any military organization.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 01:51 AM   #149
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*Brekke*? You want to talk selfish...she couldn't even get over her hangups for her queen's sake. She has to basically be raped to get over her fear of sex. (Reread that scene in DQ with her hand F'nor. On Earth, we call that at best "date rape.") All through DQ she's a martyr, St. Brekke the Abused. The only time I've been able to stomach her is in fan fic, which gives her some motivation for her behavior besides psychological pathology. Probably the best thing that happens to her is her queen dying--she doesn't have the right mindset.

Heck, even Lessa would apparently agree--apparently it's great if queen candidates sleep around, just as long as they stay away from HER MAN. Cora, IIRC, is the one who in ATWOP is in the Weyr a week and is in and out of at least three bronze rider's beds. Screwing any male who's willing is not the problem--the problem is Kylara wants LESSA'S man, and apparently before Ramoth rose, F'lar wasn't entirely unwilling.

Even Kylara's failure to understand why Lessa couldn't take charge of Pern can be viewed as not such a bad idea--stepping back in favor of the Oldtimers leads to borderline inter-Weyr warfare, overt hostility between Weyrs and the Holds and Crafts, and ends up with two separte knife fights between Weryleaders and F'lar actually having to kill one. And I have to admit I share her opinion of Lessa's whinging about children. She's Weyrwoman of Benden and Ramoth's rider--why does she have to worry about having a bunch of brats and being F'lar's good little partner? THAT's irrational.
I always felt Brekke was as useless in her way as Kylara was the other way and never much cared for either. F'nor's behavior was disgusting.

Lessa's no model citizen by a long shot. A heroine, certainly, but by turns stubborn, proud, spiteful, possessive, and a number of other unflattering adjectives as well. However, she does make a good partner to F'lar in his endeavor, and his is rather more pure than hers.

As for stepping back from leadership of Pern initially, Lessa and F'lar really had no choice. They were out-numbered, inexperienced and the ones in need. Theirs was not a negotiating position from which to be dictating anything.

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Old Jan 27 2008, 03:03 AM   #150
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I would put the blame list (if we're going for blame for the whole sorry ugly mess, rather than the queens' deaths specifically) in the following order:

Lessa
F'lar (more for bowing to Lessa than anything, but that's the breaks of leadership, when it goes wrong, it's YOUR fault)
Kylara
T'bor
Brekke (she's an enabler, but I don't think she's really capable of being anything else at that point--she lacks the will and the strength.)

I don't accept "I had a bad upbringing" as an excuse unless you are clinically mentally ill, so I don't include Kylara's father are legitimately blamable, or Larad. (What was he supposed to do?) I don't blame Pridith in any way.
Okay, I'm going to have to disagree. People always have free will, first and foremost, so the person to blame, first and foremost is Kylara.

Anyone can overcome their past. They may be the product of their upbringing, but it does not dictate their course in life. Say a son's father cheated on the son's mother. Does that mean the son is doomed to cheat on his wife in turn, and that he is absolved because his father should have taught him better? No. The son could choose to behave otherwise.

Kylara could have chosen another course. Instead, she chose not to, progressing from spoiled brat to selfish whore.

You can't dump Kylara's blame off on F'lar and Lessa. What did F'lar know about running a Weyr with more than one queen rider in it? Nil. What did F'lar even know about training a queen rider? Not much more than nil when he undertook to train Lessa and only that much more after having done so. F'lar got dealt the dirty end of the stick and did the best he could.

What did Lessa know about training another queen rider? Nil, beyond her own training, as sketchy as that was. Frankly, what did Lessa know about being in charge of anything? What she absorbed as a Lord Holder's daughter before Ruatha was assaulted is about all. In her most important formative years she was in charge of no one but herself, had no friends, and no responsibility but her self-imposed duty to kill the conqueror of her Hold.

To be frank, F'lar and Lessa were not competent to be Weyrleader and Weyrwoman. F'lar got thrown into the breach of having to deal with issues that should have been the province of the Weyrwoman, other queen riders and other women in the Weyr. Except the Weyrwoman was dead, there were no other queen riders and lacking the supervision of an intelligent Weyrwoman I'm not sure how much the other women in the Weyr could help. In the matters of fighting a Weyr, F'lar is outstanding. What he mismanages is what he was not trained to handle.

Lessa is thoroughly not competent and not even entirely sane when she arrives at Benden and is suddenly thrust into the position of Weyrwoman by default. Her education is incomplete and irrelevant being Holder-bred and not Weyr-bred. Her emotional development is arrested and twisted. She is a murderess. She is socially ill-adjusted in her own environment, and frankly a fish-out-of-water in the Weyr. She is sexually undeveloped in the mental sense. Her only qualifications for the job are her ability to hear the dragons and a blind ambition that needed to latch on some goal after that of eliminating Fax was fulfilled. Probably the only thing that made Lessa remotely rational was the Impression of Ramoth and the stability her dragon brought her. But even that came with a price and Lessa's first sexual experience is effectively a gang rape of a virgin. This is a socially, sexually and emotionally retarded, and in many respects badly damaged, woman who frankly does an admirable job of overcoming a lot of her flaws to take on a vitally important task. That she does so as well as she does is a testament to what good character traits she possesses, and to F'lar's.

So F'lar and Lessa are far from perfect. To their credit they learn from their mistakes and eventually do assert their authority once they've gained more vital experience. F'lar and Lessa 14 Turns into Pass would not make the same mistakes as F'lar and Lessa 7 Turns into Pass, or 2 Turns into Pass. But when the incident with the queens went down, neither was really up to full speed.

If you want to blame someone besides Kylara, blame the Oldtimers. They knew enough to know better. They should have stepped in. Instead they were consumed with their own problems and prerogatives and their hidebound belief in the autonomy of the individual Weyrs. So as far as they were concerned, Benden's and Southern's problem was not their job.

Also blame T'bor for being whipped. He could have chosen to stand up to Kylara. Or blame whoever Searched Kylara in the first place, because frankly, I believe once she had a dragon queen, she recognized no authority and sooner or later would have precipitated a problem. Heck, had she been left at Benden under Lessa's and Ramoth's watch, I'm sure Kylara would have eventually revolted. And then we'd have had an ugly scene of Prideth rising with Ramoth and the sad result of Ramoth killing her own offspring, given Ramoth's greater size, strength, and skill backed by the personality of a rider we know is ruthless enough to kill (assuming a flight-raptured and enraged Lessa didn't drive a knife into Kylara on the ground to eliminate the threat to Ramoth). Kylara was a time-bomb looking for a place and way to explode.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 05:09 AM   #151
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Okay, I'm going to have to disagree. People always have free will, first and foremost, so the person to blame, first and foremost is Kylara.

Anyone can overcome their past. They may be the product of their upbringing, but it does not dictate their course in life. Say a son's father cheated on the son's mother. Does that mean the son is doomed to cheat on his wife in turn, and that he is absolved because his father should have taught him better? No. The son could choose to behave otherwise.

Kylara could have chosen another course. Instead, she chose not to, progressing from spoiled brat to selfish whore.
Whoa whoa whoa. Hang on a mo. Whore? Compare her behaviour to that of other prominent dragonriders. Jaxom sleeps with who he will, the Weyrs regularly foster hold-brats fathered by riders, and look at T'ron and Mardra! They were both sleeping with anyone other than each other towards the end of their tenure at Fort Weyr, and T'ron and his riders were regularly raiding holds for female bodies, willing or otherwise.

What Kylara did only truly raised eyebrows once she began to publically flaunt her relationship with Meron, breaching the political and social divide between Hold and Weyr. Moreta had much the same kind of relationship with Alessan, but she gave her reasons for being discrete and stuck to them. Plus, Moreta, unlike Kylara, had more respect for her queen dragon and for the Weyr itself, but then she hadn't been alienated by everyone else in authority, had she?
Kylara's earlier promiscuity, while perhaps a little more extreme than ideal for a queenrider, is no sin in itself. The only problem with it in the early stages was that it undermined T'bor's authority; his weakness is no less culpable than her over-heated sex drive for the immediate consequences on that score.

At least her partners actually consented.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 11:29 AM   #152
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Whoa whoa whoa. Hang on a mo. Whore? Compare her behaviour to that of other prominent dragonriders. Jaxom sleeps with who he will, the Weyrs regularly foster hold-brats fathered by riders, and look at T'ron and Mardra! They were both sleeping with anyone other than each other towards the end of their tenure at Fort Weyr, and T'ron and his riders were regularly raiding holds for female bodies, willing or otherwise.

What Kylara did only truly raised eyebrows once she began to publically flaunt her relationship with Meron, breaching the political and social divide between Hold and Weyr. Moreta had much the same kind of relationship with Alessan, but she gave her reasons for being discrete and stuck to them. Plus, Moreta, unlike Kylara, had more respect for her queen dragon and for the Weyr itself, but then she hadn't been alienated by everyone else in authority, had she?
Kylara's earlier promiscuity, while perhaps a little more extreme than ideal for a queenrider, is no sin in itself. The only problem with it in the early stages was that it undermined T'bor's authority; his weakness is no less culpable than her over-heated sex drive for the immediate consequences on that score.

At least her partners actually consented.
Okay, I'll grant that that is perhaps the wrong word, but perhaps not.

For one thing, I'm at a loss for an adult term for "brat" that encompasses the severity of that term when applied to an adult with power.

For the other, Kylara always struck me as sleeping around in trade, specifically for power, more than the usual casual self-gratification.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 11:51 AM   #153
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For the other, Kylara always struck me as sleeping around in trade, specifically for power, more than the usual casual self-gratification.
The way I see it, it was the only facet of her personality that she had any control of or any power in herself, and the only (or perhaps easiest) way she knew of for boosting her self-esteem, as warped as it probably was. Look at the way she is all the way through Dragonquest - persistently looking for praise and appreciation, desiring respect. She never sought power in others, she sought it in herself.

I really do think that if she'd been trained/respected a little more in Benden for who she was rather than just for her looks and ability to impress/control a queen dragon, she'd have become a far less superficial personality.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 11:20 PM   #154
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The way I see it, it was the only facet of her personality that she had any control of or any power in herself, and the only (or perhaps easiest) way she knew of for boosting her self-esteem, as warped as it probably was. Look at the way she is all the way through Dragonquest - persistently looking for praise and appreciation, desiring respect. She never sought power in others, she sought it in herself.

I really do think that if she'd been trained/respected a little more in Benden for who she was rather than just for her looks and ability to impress/control a queen dragon, she'd have become a far less superficial personality.
<Shrug> I don't know. I'll grant I haven't reread DQ recently, but I'm not the kind of person to give someone a pass on their actions based on the excuse of their flaws. Everyone has choices and Kylara willingly made the wrong ones; moreover she willingly made them in an effort to aggrandize herself at the expense of others. And she willingly and cynically traded her favor to anyone willing to help her further that end. The only thing that was going to mollify her was being Weyrwoman of Pern and that simply wasn't going to happen, so she chose to maliciously upset the order to soothe her own injured pride.
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Old Jan 28 2008, 04:34 AM   #155
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I'm not excusing her actions, I'm simply addressing the likely causes.
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Old Jan 29 2008, 09:35 PM   #156
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I have always wonder how Jora impressed a queen as well. It seems some times the dragons are, dare I say it, WRONG.
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Old Jan 30 2008, 06:42 AM   #157
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Perhaps it's due to the people around them. If a lot of people are thinking "Go for X" it might sway the dragon. That might be another reason for the lack of girls on greens. Everyone thought that girls only impressed golds and it might have just swayed the dragonets away from the crowd or the female candidates.
The reason Mirrim might have impressed could be due to her thinking along the lines of "I wish that I was out there with the chance to impress" and Path latched on to the friendly mind.
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Old Jan 30 2008, 09:12 PM   #158
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Perhaps it's due to the people around them. If a lot of people are thinking "Go for X" it might sway the dragon. That might be another reason for the lack of girls on greens. Everyone thought that girls only impressed golds and it might have just swayed the dragonets away from the crowd or the female candidates.
The reason Mirrim might have impressed could be due to her thinking along the lines of "I wish that I was out there with the chance to impress" and Path latched on to the friendly mind.
The Second Weyr makes it pretty clear that girls began to be excluded from Hatching and Impression in general due to the desire not to have much of the green dragon force grounded because of pregnancy among female riders. I believe that point also comes up in Dragonseye. Add in the need to build up the population of the colony, and the effects of various plagues and women precipitate out of the ranks of the fighting dragons, as well as out of the craftmasterships, and even the Lady Holders are increasingly subordinated.

Then there is the question of what a dragon looks for. Number one, it would seem the dragon seeks a person with sufficient capacity for telepathy/telempathy. Number two, it would seem the dragon seeks a compatible personality and that the default is to Impress a human of the same sex as the dragon (this is a fact noted in The Second Weyr, with same sex pairing being marked as distinctly "more stable"); lacking that, the dragon may Impress a human of the opposite sex that is adequately "feminine" or "masculine" in their personality traits. Number three, intensity of emotion appears to have an effect. Number four, it would seem that proximity plays some role.

Witness the fact that if a dragon is having difficulty Impressing, the Weyrlingmaster will herd or aim un-Impressed candidates at the dragon, even surrounding it. In spite of this, a dragon sometimes will ignore these people and instead make a bee-line for another person. Often, there is something emotionally intense about the person Impressed. Jaxom had particularly strong feelings about the injustice of Ruth's runty egg (and, of course, he helped break it open). Debera was under considerable stress an anxiety, fearing she was too late, and having been under pursuit. Multiple other cases exist of various candidates crowding a dragon that has not made an immediate choice and the dragon settling on one of them.

So it seems likely that in Jora's case there were probably a limited number of candidates offered, and possibly even a limited number of women in the audience and/or within "reception range" or "broadcasting" loudly enough. So Nemorth probably "settled" for the best she could get. Perhaps every other candidate offered was superior in every way...except criterion number one: telepathic/telempathic capability. Who knows? We know Jora met criterion number two: she was female. As for criteria three and four? Who knows?
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Old Jan 31 2008, 11:13 AM   #159
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... probably a limited number of candidates offered, and possibly even a limited number of women in the audience and/or within "reception range" or "broadcasting" loudly enough.
Are you hinting that Mirrim was proddy before she impressed Path?



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Old Jan 31 2008, 12:15 PM   #160
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I was saying that as well as the politics, the reasons more girls from the stands didn't impress might be be to the "girls only ride gold" mindset swaying the dragons.
Jora wasn't supposed to be bad looking in the beginning. If there are a group of telempathically minded men out there thinking "she'd be good. I wouldn't mind my dragon flying hers." perhaps that could sway a dragon, or if she was the only one there, the dragonet wouldn't want to die!
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