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View Poll Results: Kylara, Evil or misunderstood?
Evil through and through! 22 23.66%
I don't think she was Evil but she certainly was no angel 63 67.74%
Purely misunderstood. 2 2.15%
The Purple monkeys are the ones to ask. 6 6.45%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Nov 30 2004, 08:39 PM   #41
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

We'll never know how bad Brekke was for her queen, as Anne really copped out on that one (couldn't let F'nor win, couldn't let Brekke sleep with another man because the rules of sexual relations in the Weyr don't apply to main characters).

The only explaination I can think of for Jora (was she Weyrbred? I can't stand MHOP and rarely reread it) is there was REALLY no selection. Though again we've got some consistency problems--in DF, the implication is more than she was just lazy and a glutton, not phobic, but that's another thread. (Hm. So would be, "If a flight has to be really high and really long to produce a queen egg, where did Ramoth come from?")

Sure, Kylara's father was a bad influence. Lessa had no parents for her most formative years and was basically a little wild heathen when F'lar plucks her out of Ruatha. Lessa, with a lot of training, overcame her habit of using people as tools and manipulation (again--Lessa has already killed at least one person when she's Searched, and it wasn't someone who did her any harm himself. He was just in her way. Lessa of DF is a ruthless person.) Kylara is pushed away and shoved into a position of responsibility not because she's ready for it or even suitable at that point (though with the right handling she could have been an excellent Weyrwoman) but because Lessa wants her gone.
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Old Nov 30 2004, 09:13 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnMarie
How does a woman who's afraid of hieghts Impress a creature with wings to fly?
It really makes you wonder how bad the other queen candidates were, that Jora was selected!
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Old Nov 30 2004, 09:44 PM   #43
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth snip
but Lessa is very immature, too.....Instead of hating and resenting her for being sensual and desireable to men, and plotting from the minute Ramoth laid Pridith's egg to get rid of her, Lessa might have been able to mold Kylara....But, as I said, Lessa in DF is very immature....And Lessa's emotional immaturity in DF basically sets up what Kylara becomes in DQ. Her territorial behavior regarding HER man is more important than training the obviously strong-willed Kylara to be a decent Weyrwoman, so she basically lets Kylara fend for herself.
okay---here you bring up a very good point which basically invalidates much of your own arguement

Just how old was Lessa & Kylara each in DF? & then 7yrs later in DQ?

our fanish estimates put Lessa between 19(min)-21(max) when she Impressed, and 22(min)-24(max) when Ramoth laid Prideth's egg, & Kylara's already sleeping around (remember, Kylara was a contender for Ramoth's Hatching, too)

Seems to me that they perhaps were quite close to the same age And since Lessa did not have anyone to mentor her in her years hiding while she stood alone against Fax & all his minions---a very life&death situation that tends to harden people, but not neccessarily teach them wisdom---but you now expected Lessa to teach & mentor a woman she's not much older than with the proper form & decorum that wasn't needed to survive while she was growing up in Ruatha. OTOH, Kylara grew up with Larad & Thella & no doubt got some of that proper training before going to Benden.

As you just pointed out here, Lessa is acting rather immaturely in DF and with the bravery of youth rather than wisdom because she was young & not properly reared! So how can she be expected to teach Kylara how to handled her dragon & her responsibilities? Lessa was just learning them herself! & on top of that, they had no time to even consider such things since Thread was dropping on their heads the whole time!

Much of your arguement so far has been to point out how much Lessa was at Fault; F'lar was at Fault; F'nor was at Fault; T'bor was at Fault; Brekke was at Fault. Yet, at what point is Kylara ever going to be "at Fault"??? Why didn't you point out how her father, and later brother Larad never "properly raised" her? What about Ranelly--the brown-nosing Yes-(wo)man?? What about Meron, who actually gave Kylara the rough sex she craved while simpering Brekke had to be woken up with that Romance-Novel-Lover-F'nor???

Two points I just remembered while lying in bed last night:

1) Thella, the nice-bitch-that-she-was, & who detested dragonriders because their existance threatened her plans for establishing her own Hold, instead blames Kylara for losing Prideth. Whenever I read that, I understood it to mean Anne was implying that Thella knew something about her sister and so had reason for blaming Kylara. (Most likely the effects of the timing had on the younger Kylara with the older woman influencing her own development through Prideth--in other words, temporal sickness)

2) Prideth's own resentment against her rider clearly showed that even the dragon knew she was doing wrong, and tried to get Kylara to straighten up! Only the stupid cow wouldn't listen to Prideth, much less T'bor

So at what point...remember, DQ is 7 years down the road, and Kylara certainly had time to develop her own maturity, as did Lessa--indeed, Kylara had several more years to "mature" sitting in Southern...at what point does Kylara EVER become responsible for her OWN behavior, actions, attitudes, and the consequences for them?

Is F'lar still needed to help keep her bedded? Is F'nor supposed to fly another Weyr's Weyrwoman (note the capitalization in that title) rather than the weyrwoman he's in love with?? Is Brekke, who is a JUNIOR weyrwoman supposed to backhand her boss & tell her to get with the ****ing program??? Is Lessa needed to come over and run roughshod over another independent & automous Weyr & kick out the current Weyrwoman (who is probably several years older, biologically by now) of said Weyr???? (boy, wouldn't that go over great with traditionalist T'ron )

I won't go into all your points, however, but that was some good reading...and asside from you laying blame to everyone but Kylara, I actually agree with your assessment about they should've taken the timing further than the 10yrs---but then, timing was a new quantity to an ignorant people. Look back at how we thought about nuclear power before the effects of radiation poisoning were known in 1945, and even later
Quote:
As for what I'd have done if she were after "my man" and how that's somehow an excuse--I wouldn't be dumb enough to do the one thing that puts her outside my authority. Lessa and Co. forgot one very true old maxim: "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer."
Evidently, all of Pern had forgotten that, even before they settled the planet. Do the words "Ted Tubberman" bring any ideas to mind?
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If they'd set out to make Kylara a stir-crazy vengence-happy witch, they couldn't have planned it better.
yes, mistakes certainly were made, and you make some very good, pursuasive arguements. But at no point are you affixing the blame where it belongs: Kylara.

Also, if you insist on affixing blame to someone outside Kylara, I remind you of her father, her brother Larad, the "other, older Kylara" and most importantly Prideth. Those four were almost certainly more influential to her attitude than those you keep pointing to.

Hindsight, however, is not only 20-20, but gets the clarity that only an electron microscope can deliver...except, that "clarity" often times muddies & obscures the real picture

Anne wrote the story to show that the consequences of F'lar, Lessa, F'nor, T'bor, (but I don't think Brekke should be included), and Kylara's mistakes slowly built up over time (7+years, in fact) could lead to one unalterable moment of disaster. Even if what you calculate was correct, could they all have anticipated such thing? Given my own mistakes of the past, especially the ones that built up over considerable time, I'd think probably not. I seriously doubt that anyone could, not even you would be able. If Anne's characters could've anticipated such mistakes, would there have been as good a story as DragonQuest??? probably not.
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Old Nov 30 2004, 09:48 PM   #44
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnMarie snip
Brekke had a reason for the way she was. Kylara did too...breeding and conditioning in the negative (all the pregoatives of power, none of the responsibilities...and that came from her FATHER long before Lessa was involved) How does a woman who's afraid of hieghts Impress a creature with wings to fly?
HAH! HAH! you & I had the same thoughts! It took me a couple hours to write my response above, I never saw this post
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Old Nov 30 2004, 10:54 PM   #45
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuu
HAH! HAH! you & I had the same thoughts! It took me a couple hours to write my response above, I never saw this post

Ah, but Ryuu...you got to the nitty gritty in ways I wanted to, but didn't come close to.
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Old Dec 1 2004, 03:59 AM   #46
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

By the time Jora Impressed, Benden had had several generations of only one queen at a time. Jora was supposedly very attractive and originally brought to the Weyr for the bronzeriders's entertainment. One queen meant she couldn't be risked in any way, so it had probably been generations since queens had flown at any time except during their mating flights. Ironically those same mating flights were probably shorter, and thus less likely to produce queens, because the golds were unused to flying and didn't have the stamina to fly very far and fast.
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Old Dec 1 2004, 11:27 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granath snip
Ironically those same mating flights were probably shorter, and thus less likely to produce queens, because the golds were unused to flying and didn't have the stamina to fly very far and fast.
Or it might've allowed the queens to store up the energy for a longer single flight, thus increasing the length of Flying, the size of clutches, and made the dragons bigger...who knows? The fact that nearly ALL Benden dragons were considerably larger than their Oldtimer counterparts indicates something boosted their size for 400yrs, not just the last few Turns prior to the Pass.

...but now we're starting to stray

KYLARA WAS STUPID!

There! Hopefully Cheryl won't notice

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Old Dec 1 2004, 11:57 AM   #48
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Something boosted their size. I'd say inbreeding. Only one queen at a time means she'll fly her sire (probably), "uncles" and later sons. A rather restricted gene pool, with inbreeding in this case leading to larger dragons.

I'll agree with Kylara being stupid, but since when has stupid equaled evil?
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Old Dec 1 2004, 02:25 PM   #49
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None has said that Kylara was Evil though granath. Ryuu has said that she was stupid and everyone else has said that she was a spolit brat.
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Old Dec 1 2004, 02:53 PM   #50
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Hear hear Ryuu!
Kylara is the main one to blame even if others didnt help.
I noticed that you pointed out that Lessa and Kylara were about the same age-that would make it harder for Kylara to have any respect for Lessa. In fact she shows alot of disrespect very openly by Dragonquest and she was already disobeying rules-ie timing once she was in southern- in dragonflight.
That girl was brought up to have no respect for anybody and her ego fuelled the fire! Larad has a totally different character and FAAAR more intelligence and commonsense than Kylara. The thing that makes Thella so sucessful is Kylara's attitude with a bit of commonsense!
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Old Dec 1 2004, 04:37 PM   #51
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I don't NEED to blame Kyalra--everyone already does. The problem is she gets too much blame. Her worst sin is immaturity--she never does grow up, and yes, by DQ, she should have. The problem is, everyone is ready to blame EVERYTHING on her. I in fact don't really blame ANYONE, except possibly Wirenth, for the queen's deaths. Pilgra, who knows the area better than Kylara or Brekke, thought Nabol was far enough away. If anyone can be ascribed blame, Wirenth started it by flying that way.

And I'm not saying I expect Lessa as-written to have done it--she was a brat in her own way in DF, at the time really a more dangerous one. But that doesn't absolve her of responsibility for it--she and F'lar were in charge, and they blew it, big time, and Lessa's motivations at least are profoundly petty. They're pretty quick to make Kylara an absolute villaness--maybe because deep down there know there WAS something they could have done seven years' earlier to stop this before it started?

Yes, they seem to have made the same mistake of ignoring their enemies with Ted Tubberman. So, does that make it smart? Patently not. But by the 9th Pass, with Fax and war so recent, you'd think some of them at least would have caught on.

Rannely is a servant. She does what servants are supposed to do. Her job is to take care of Kylara and do what needs doing for her. She's a bit batty, but if Kylara tossed her out, you'd all be on how cruel that was.

Mentioning Meron--ah, here we get to more of Anne's Victorian issues when it comes to sex. Kylara is evil because she likes it rough. Brekke is such a prude that she has to be forced to like it. All main characters are monogamous (with the apparent exception of T'gellan, who HAS to be a Weyrleader but also HAS to be Mirrim's only partner) even when it flies in the face of the entire society Anne created. This is one reason I'd love to see Golanth permanently crippled and no TK out for him to fly Zaranth--just once I'd like to see a major dragonriding character forced to suck it up and sleep around like all the other riders apparently have to.

As for the politics of being involved with Meron, we're back to T'bor being a real disadvantage. Since Kylara is senior, the only one at Southern who can have any influence at all would be T'bor, if they had at least a decent working relationship. Instead, T'bor's an emotional wreck who's let Kylara get away with figurative murder for so long he couldn't have stood up to her if he'd wanted to--she laughed at him and rightly so. Moreta and Sh'gall had a closer relationship. If he couldn't deal with her, he should have taken F'lar's implied advice and let someone else try, but his private emotions were more important to him. A stronger Weyrleader (or keeping Kylara at Benden) would have nipped that "association" in the bud.

You can blame Kylara for a lot of things, but it's not as if she's surrounded by sweet, wonderful faultless people who gave her every chance and help. She had a weakling for a Weyrleader who couldn't stand up to her, she got sent back in time and given vastly too much authority when she patently wasn't ready for it, ends up (probably to her mind through underhanded means) stuck in a place and duty that are PROFOUNDLY unsuited to her temperment and talents, she had one doormat for a junior and one who seems not to have been around much, like Lessa she apparently had upbringing issues, and she was treated like a pariah for behavior that had previously been acceptable (before Ramoth rose, even F'lar aparently slept with her) and which is still considered acceptable for other gold candidates. If you're going to compare sisters, Thella is a (badly drawn and ultimately cartoonish) villain, Kylara is a tragic waste of potential. She ultimately makes her own decisions, but she gets a LOT of "help" along the way. No one comes out of Dragonquest smelling like roses, or at least they certainly shouldn't.
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Old Dec 12 2004, 07:58 PM   #52
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I think that Kylara would have been a better weyrwoman if she would have had a stronger weyrleader to keep her in line. T'bor just stood there and let her do whatever she wanted because he was obessed with her and wanted to keep her, anyway he could. If, she had a stronger weyrleader, lets say like D'ram or even T'ron(sp?) they would have kept her in line. Also why couldn't they have demoted her? She would be more easily controlable if she was a junior weyrwoman. Just my
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Old Dec 13 2004, 03:00 AM   #53
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That's the biggest problem with Weyr management, choosing Weyrleaders is so very arbitrary. Of course, if the senior is smart, she may announce a stepdown shortly before her chosen successor's dragon is about to fly. It doesn't always work out that way, though. The WW may be too egotistical, holding on to power until her dragon stops rising, and then it will be a matter of luck. Or a WW may be chosen by default, if there's only one queen. And the hardest bit to swallow is that once elected WW by the dragons, she can't be demoted until her queen stops rising, the Impressed pair dies, or she steps down.
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Old Dec 13 2004, 12:19 PM   #54
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Granath is right, which is why (see the future of Pern thread) I think she's also right that one of the things that will have to change post-Thread is the way Weyrwomen and Weyrleaders are chosen. Rogue Dragon is right that one things which could have improved the situation at Southern was a different Weyrleader--T'bor was worse than useless. Even R'gul, problem as he might have been for F'lar, would have been a better selection, as he wouldn't have taken the sort of crap Kylara dished out.

They missed their only shot to "demote" Kylara when the Weyrs came forward. Right then, given the unprecedented situation, they could have brought her back to Benden as a junior Weyrwoman. (Ramoth would have enforced it. Even after having been a senior at Southern for seven years, Pridith was still afraid of her dam.) Or they could have 'swapped' with one of the juniors from an Oldtimer Weyr, bringing some new blood into Benden and giving a Benden queen to one of the Oldtimer Weyrs. A nice political gesture but also a way of making Kylara someone else's problem. But once they made Southern a "real" Weyr, such as it was, and Kylara was indisputably Weyrwoman, removing her became a massive difficulty. I do think it could have been done, by a degree of force, possibly, but done, but it would have been difficult, and when it comes to Kylara, F'lar and Lessa seem to prefer an avoidance strategy.
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Old Dec 13 2004, 12:49 PM   #55
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Can you imagine what would've happened if they tried to demote or discipline her though once she was in southern.
I got the impression that she had demoralised T'bor with her insolence and sleeping around though, not that he was a very weak character.
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Old Dec 13 2004, 02:58 PM   #56
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Can you imagine what would've happened if they tried to demote or discipline her though once she was in southern.
I got the impression that she had demoralised T'bor with her insolence and sleeping around though, not that he was a very weak character.
At the end of DF? She'd have fussed, she'd have pouted, she'd have protested, and then she'd bloody well have done what Lessa and Ramoth told her to. At the time Southern wasn't even a Weyr, it was an experiment.

As for T'bor being demoralized, you can't blame Kylara for his feelings. He either needed to grow up and accept that obviously she wasn't as into him as he was into her, and deal accordingly, or give up on the next flight and let another bronze win. (Though--besides visiting wounded, what other bronzes ARE there at Southern?) How he reacts to her is HIS choice. He chose to be sulky and to convince himself that maybe things would change after the next mating flight. That's not Kylara's fault. That's T'bor's. He may not be able to stop feeling hurt (though he could if he really tried--anyone can) but he can control how he reacts to it.
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Old Dec 13 2004, 06:58 PM   #57
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just thought of something. there was a period that Lessa couldnt have done something. she nearly died giving birth to fellessan she couldnt have done anything around then.
onto the bit at the top of the page. brekke treated wirenth better than kylara treated Pridith.
theres a bit in dq where they describe Wirenth of being a good example of a queen with no blemishes indicating bad treatment while poor Pridith had a dull hide in the bit where Kylara cleans her and shes wildish when she hunts, though kylara DOES realise that she shouldntve let her gorge.
as far as the mating flight goes that is Kylara's fault. shes been a weyrwoman 7 years and everyone else knows that Pridith is near mating.
I think, by the way the book was going Brekke wouldve kept control over Wirenth, she knew that much annd Weyr wouldve had to win in the end, though shed've felt guilty and probably violated if it wasnt F'nor.
i was thinking about this issue all through reading DQ.
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Old Dec 14 2004, 10:13 AM   #58
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

Kylara definately did not look after Pridith as well as she should have. and was not very good as a Weyrwoman. But it would have been difficult to replace her, as there is little or no either precedence or ways to remove a senor queen.
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Old Dec 14 2004, 11:12 AM   #59
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yep. otherwise she wouldve been removed.
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Old Dec 14 2004, 11:25 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by c_ris
Kylara definately did not look after Pridith as well as she should have. and was not very good as a Weyrwoman. But it would have been difficult to replace her, as there is little or no either precedence or ways to remove a senor queen.

True, IF Southern Weyr was an actual autonomous Weyr. Which it isn't. It's first an experiment and then an ajunct of the all-powerful Benden. It's where Lessa and F'lar send those they want out of the way, but still have control over. Frankly, if I were in Kylara's position, I'd be pretty damn resentful too.
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Old Dec 14 2004, 12:40 PM   #61
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True, IF Southern Weyr was an actual autonomous Weyr. Which it isn't. It's first an experiment and then an ajunct of the all-powerful Benden. It's where Lessa and F'lar send those they want out of the way, but still have control over. Frankly, if I were in Kylara's position, I'd be pretty damn resentful too.
Her background would've made it difficult to be in the possition yes, but would she have preferred being Lessa's junior-I think not!
Its really a case of frying pan and fire over that issue.
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Old Dec 14 2004, 12:51 PM   #62
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True, IF Southern Weyr was an actual autonomous Weyr. Which it isn't. It's first an experiment and then an ajunct of the all-powerful Benden. It's where Lessa and F'lar send those they want out of the way, but still have control over. Frankly, if I were in Kylara's position, I'd be pretty damn resentful too.
THANK you, palmedfire. Even at the Weyrleaders' meeting, the allegedly autonomous T'bor is obviously subordinate to F'lar.

And again, why are Kylara's preferences being considered, except that we know when she's unhappy she doesn't behave and as such leaving her in a place she hates is opening up oportunities for trouble? At the end of DF, she's not even a real Senior--she'd get her orders and she'd either obey them or be in a lot of trouble. (Unless T'bor backed her up, and I can't see him ever really defying F'lar in anything.) Also, why do you think she'd object THAT much to being back at Benden, as it would make one thing a lot easier--getting F'lar? If she wants Mnementh to fly Pridith, that would happen a lot more easily at Benden.

So Lessa was sick for a bit. That was MONTHS after the Oldtimers's return. (Eight or nine, to be precise, unless Felessan was drastically premature in which case he should be dead.) The one point where Lessa and F'lar could have gotten Kylara well in hand is RIGHT after DF, especially since they were still on excellent terms with T'ton, Mardra et al and would have had backup. Lessa has no excuse there--she's absolutely chortling that she can keep Kylara half a planet away.
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Old Dec 14 2004, 01:11 PM   #63
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I've just been through the entire thread to see who we blame and in no apparant order its...

Kylara
Lessa-alot
F'lar
Brekke-to some extent
T'bor
Kylara's father
Larad
Kylara's timing
Pridith.

thats alot of people.

perhaps perns at fault as well.
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Old Dec 14 2004, 01:33 PM   #64
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I would put the blame list (if we're going for blame for the whole sorry ugly mess, rather than the queens' deaths specifically) in the following order:

Lessa
F'lar (more for bowing to Lessa than anything, but that's the breaks of leadership, when it goes wrong, it's YOUR fault)
Kylara
T'bor
Brekke (she's an enabler, but I don't think she's really capable of being anything else at that point--she lacks the will and the strength.)

I don't accept "I had a bad upbringing" as an excuse unless you are clinically mentally ill, so I don't include Kylara's father are legitimately blamable, or Larad. (What was he supposed to do?) I don't blame Pridith in any way.

For the queen flight, I think the only way to possibly assign any blame would be to blame Wirenth for picking a bad direction. Pilgra thought Kylara was far enough away. Pridith cannot be blamed for being triggered. Kylara cannot be blamed for not knowing something a Weyrwoman raised at High Reaches did not know. (I don't accept the "Kylara and Meron set her off", unless it's argued that Pridith would have risen whether Wirenth flew overhead or not. And if having sex when your queen is very close to rising is bad for your queen, F'nor committed dragon abuse to Wirenth by forcing Brekke to have sex as well.) Brekke cannot be blamed for it because she didn't point Wirenth at Nabol on purpose or even at all. And Wirenth was almost certainly not thinking about it. That was a freak accident.
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Old Dec 14 2004, 03:53 PM   #65
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i agree that the flight was a freak but not so sure about the blame, Lessa was in someways to blame but upbringing DOES have an influence, its even mentioned in the books when Kylarra thinks of her mother and how she plans not to end up in her situation. Anyway look at Thella, there are some similarities in character.
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Old Dec 15 2004, 11:00 AM   #66
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Post Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

I always had the feeling that Kylara wanted the prestige that goes with being a Senior Queen Rider/Weyrwoman but she seemed to push off all the work that was involved in running a Weyr onto the other Queen Riders (especially Brekke).
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Old Dec 15 2004, 12:58 PM   #67
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she seems to have the impression that a proper weyrwoman is some sort of queen to be waited on hand and foot- perhaps due to hold rumor and jealously, Lessa doesnt but Kylara doesnt think much of her and is contemptuous that she never wanted to rule Pern.
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Old Dec 16 2004, 08:44 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
yep. bet he shouted at that green rider-cos he said he wouldnt be weyred there.
On the thread about Kylara being helpful fetching tasks-it was only an excuse remember, what part of fetching water casks is being in Meron's chamber!
Hmm, lessee. I'm figuring Kylara's age at that time to be late twenties to thirty. Now, since I've already passed that age, I can look back and say that I was somewhat irresponsible even then. Kylara, coming from a background of being a Lord Holder's daughter, and practically being handed all the good things in her life on a gold platter (I mean, c'mon, Lessa and F'lar practically gave her Pridith,) is going to take advantage of any situation that will be beneficial to her.

And anyone out there who says that they would do different...well, I for one don't believe you. I'm not calling you an out and out liar, but I don't believe you.

Also, have any of you Kylara-denouncers even thought about the amount of water she was getting? She wasn't going for a canteen of water, but enough water to provide a whole Weyr full of people at least some to suffice for their daily needs - for that day, at least. She was getting kegs of water - not those miniscule little things that pass for 'a lot' you find at frat houses - she was going for a quantity.

You don't expect her to fill those kegs herself now, do you? Even Brekke would've let some nice strong drudges and/or other workers do the grunt work. So, she was entertaining herself while these kegs were being filled. And they didn't have hot and cold running water, or faucets, though they may have had hoses....but anyway, it was going to take a while. So, no matter if she was sitting around embroidering with the Nabol ladies, or boinking her hothot Holder-lover, she still would have been there. And if anyone had thought to warn her about Wirenth rising (and really, we don't know if they did or not), she would have stayed there since it was far enough away from High Reaches Weyr.

By the time Wirenth reached the skies of Nabol and Pridith noticed her, Kylara may not even had enough time to react, no matter what she was doing, whether it be embroidery, baking, or boinking. Granted, the fact that what she was doing would only have been enhanced by Pridith's unscheduled rising possibly delayed her even more, but I still doubt that really would have made any difference in the scheme of things.

You know, it really amazes me the double standards a lot of people have. I can think of a couple other scenarios, and if those had been the one in the book, the whole reaction would have been different.

Scenario #1: Kylara and Brekke are both at High Reaches, and it's Vanera who's at Nabol getting the kegs. Kylara takes Pridith to Southern, Wirenth rises, Vanera is *possibly* the one boinking Meron, or maybe she has a different Holder lover there. Wirenth flies over Nabol, Vanera's queen rises too, they fight and disappear *between* forever. And everyone would have said "an unfortunate series of events. No one's at fault."

Scenario #2: Brekke's at Nabol getting the water, Kylara's at the Weyr. Pridith rises first, heads towards Nabol, Wirenth rises, queens fight, go *between*. In this scenario, somehow it will still be Kylara's fault.

And really. This whole scene could have been prevented if one of those horny bronze dragons had "caught" one of the queens to prevent the fight. Then the other queen would have been able to go her merry way. Buncha stupid bronzes, I say.
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Old Dec 17 2004, 05:27 AM   #69
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Quote:
Hmm, lessee. I'm figuring Kylara's age at that time to be late twenties to thirty. Now, since I've already passed that age, I can look back and say that I was somewhat irresponsible even then. Kylara, coming from a background of being a Lord Holder's daughter, and practically being handed all the good things in her life on a gold platter (I mean, c'mon, Lessa and F'lar practically gave her Pridith,) is going to take advantage of any situation that will be beneficial to her.
No one I know of my age (19 ish) is that irresponsible save possibly 2 people.

Kylara takes advantage, as does Lessa, F'lar and everyone else... look at Lessa in DF! perhaps they shouldnt've presented Pridith like that but Kylara never grew up to accept her responsibilities anyway.

Quote:
Also, have any of you Kylara-denouncers even thought about the amount of water she was getting? She wasn't going for a canteen of water, but enough water to provide a whole Weyr full of people at least some to suffice for their daily needs - for that day, at least. She was getting kegs of water - not those miniscule little things that pass for 'a lot' you find at frat houses - she was going for a quantity.
she was going for casks-not water, there were sources of water near the weyr, but nothing to carry it in, hence the fact that Brekke felt it stupid to send a dragon for a few buckets full. Its stupid to carry more weight than you need to.

I think that yep irresponsibility and childishness is a fault of Kylara, Brekke and Lessa, but for whatever reason Kylara was more childish than the others and by your late 20s you must have some common sense for sure!
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Old Dec 18 2004, 08:57 AM   #70
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Kylara was out to further Kylara be it rank, standing, or power! A woman who was the daughter of a Lord Holder who, until searched would certainly been wed to aother Lord's son. But once she enterd the weyr, she found she needn't be tied to one person and that she could influence a whole world. Heady stuff indeed! No . . . she was out to further Kylara and would use anyone, including her dragon to get what she wanted.
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Old Dec 18 2004, 12:27 PM   #71
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

There is one other thing that kind of nags at me. At the beginning of DQ, we're told it's seven Turns later. It's referenced in DQ a couple of times. However....

None of the characters that were in DF seem to have matured by seven years in DQ.

Lessa's still manipulative, Kylara's still a spoiled Holdbrat. Brekke is introduced as new, she's "the same age as Lessa was when Mnementh first flew Ramoth", yet she seems to be the same age as Kylara, T'bor, F'nor and Lessa. Lessa and Kylara should be heading into their thirties at this point, while Brekke would only be approximately 21. But the way it's written, everyone seems to be the same age.

(Which also happens in TWD. No way are Mirrim, Menolly, Jaxom, Piemir and F'lessan the same age, but they are written that way in TWD)

And Edith - I'm not saying you (or anyone else here) are irresponsible now. And I'm also not comparing anyone to Kylara since comparing a real live person to a fictional write-up is totally ludicrous. However, everyone does irresponsible things during all walks of life. Come back to me in 10 years and tell me, were you as responible at 19 as you thought you were? But you'd have to be truthful with yourself.
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Old Dec 29 2004, 06:59 PM   #72
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'm at home at the mo-hence no eyes or cays. (mums pc)
seen most've my friends at least once and apart from the 2 aforementioned we've all matured greatly in 2 months.
prob because the 2 o 3 who remained at home havent but the rest have. people adapt to new situations and GROW UP
ylara doesnt-at all despite new responsibilities. its a big change woring or living by yourself those who went to uni or got a CAREER grew up. its the ones who stayed behind that dont. Cylara shouldve grown up more than lessa wth all the changes
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Old Dec 30 2004, 09:19 PM   #73
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Lea O-G
I still think she was a spoild brat who became worse as a queen rider
I agree! She didn't deserve Prideth, but she shouldn't have caused Werenth's death also.
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Old Jan 1 2005, 08:53 PM   #74
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

I don't think Kylara was evil; spoiled, selfish, self-centered...you betcha.

IMO, Kylara doesn't have the personality type to be a queenrider and 'that' is where the problem started.

She is very sensual and even promiscuous, doesn't take responsibility seriously, thinks more of herself than anything including her dragon. To me that says 'greenrider' not queenrider.

With Kylara on a green, there wouldn't have been any problems with her.

----------

On the Brekke topic, I only have one word to describe her...submissive. Which is also not a trait that should be considered for a queenrider.

Just my
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Old Jan 20 2005, 05:19 AM   #75
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could you imagine Kylara on a green...
poor dragon
poor any of her superiors...
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Old Jan 20 2005, 08:56 PM   #76
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Quote:
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I still think she was a spoild brat who became worse as a queen rider

Yep.

I felt sorry for Prideth for having Impressed some brat like Kylara. I also felt sorry for the fire-lizard Kylara impressed.
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Old Jan 23 2005, 12:32 PM   #77
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

I don't think she was misunderstood. She knew what she was doing. I do feel sorry that she lost her queen, but then again if she watching her queen better she would have know she was due to fly soon. She was carrying on like a cat in heat when she should have been helping with cleaning up their new home.
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Old Jan 29 2005, 01:57 AM   #78
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Quote:
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Something boosted their size. I'd say inbreeding. Only one queen at a time means she'll fly her sire (probably), "uncles" and later sons. A rather restricted gene pool, with inbreeding in this case leading to larger dragons.

I'll agree with Kylara being stupid, but since when has stupid equaled evil?
Wrong it specifically states in DGP that they were bound to get bigger and it was only 400 turns where there was only one weyr and one queen at a time. The first dragons were very very small. Human were almost as tall as them. Ruth was bigger than most of the first dragons. The dragons size grew with each new cutch at first small intervals of growth then noticable amounts. The growth eventually ended with Ramoth the largest dragon Pern would ever have.
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Old Jan 29 2005, 04:00 AM   #79
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Default Re: Kylara, a Bad girl or just misunderstood?

If by DGP you mean the Dragonlover's guide to Pern, usually abbreviated DLG, I'd take anything that says with a pinch, nay, a spoonful of salt. However, the fact that dragons were planned to get bigger is canon from several books. Ruth, the runt they thought wouldn't live, was shown by AIVAS to be bigger than Carenath and Faranth.

There was speculation by AIVAS (?) that the 9th Pass dragons had exceeded the original genetic specifications, and that could only happen through inbreeding. Even if they had more than one queen for most of the 400 Turns of the Interval, the fact that they had only one Weyr led to quite considerable inbreeding, as they couldn't send junior queens to other Weyrs.
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Old Jan 30 2005, 05:21 PM   #80
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there was a very limited gene pool to start with anyway!

back on topic.
I've been thinking again.
Rare occurance I know.
Its Lessa. I know shes somewhat to blame but with the whole giving birth thing.
if it was as bad as the books said she was likely to be ill for a long term with Pern medication AND she is likely-and its hinted at that she'd be depressed.
My aunt;'s recently (November) given birth and the baby's premature and got CF. Looking at the way shes reacted I doubt Lessa'd be up to much not for several months at least and thats a long time for people to develop. That could've been a crucial time for Kylara and Lessa couldnt have helped.
I know this has been mentioned several times but I keep running problems through my head!
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