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Old May 29 2014, 01:01 PM   #1
Aja
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a holdless former criminal? (Who obviously had to have started young else s/he would be too old to Stand.)

a youth who hired out as a thug, and did harm to others?

the person who hired that thug?

What other situations might a dragon choose to Impress to someone of questionable morals?
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Old May 29 2014, 01:14 PM   #2
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Given that Prideth chose Kylara, I don't think hatchlings are good judges of character. That brings up the question, what DO they look for when choosing?
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Old May 29 2014, 01:25 PM   #3
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I don't know if morals come into it exactly. Hatchlings are looking for a person with a caring personality plus the innate ability to communicate with them. A candidate might well have what we would consider to be character flaws, but a thuggish type is NOT a "caring" person.

I think one of the novels mentioned that they're also repelled by greed. (Fire-lizards are less picky. They just want to be fed.)

Re Kylara:
Various posts have suggested her character changed for the worse over the turns, so she may have been a nicer person when she started out. And maybe she was just the best (or the most telepathic) of those available when Prideth hatched.
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Old May 29 2014, 01:29 PM   #4
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I certainly wouldn't think of Kylara as being possessed of a "caring personality", unless by caring, that meant caring only for herself.
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Old May 29 2014, 04:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: Would a Hatchling Impress to..

I think Kylara at least was trained to Impress (Lessa spends a lot of time with her and the queen egg) and obviously she cared about herself, Prideth in many ways. She was self-centered, but not sadistic. Her half-sister on the other hand was clearly psychopathic--I doubt very much Thella could have ever impressed. Someone who actively enjoyed cruelty and would likely not be thinking warm, positive thoughts at a Hatching is probably not putting out the mental energy to attract a telepathic baby. Greed might be all right (think what the hatchlings want--to stuff themselves sick straight off) but violence and danger, not so much.
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Old May 29 2014, 05:43 PM   #6
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Someone who actively enjoyed cruelty and would likely not be thinking warm, positive thoughts at a Hatching is probably not putting out the mental energy to attract a telepathic baby.

That's a good way of looking at it, Anareth. However, there has to be more to Impression than just thinking receptive thoughts and believing one capable of Impressing (a certain color), else since Keevan thought a bronze above him, he would not have Impressed one. He was thinking far more modestly of a green, or at best a brown, like his father.

That's taking your thought a bit further, from just thinking receptive thoughts at a Hatching to specific receptivity, but still illustrates, I think, that what one is thinking may be only a part of the picture. Certainly I'd agree that anyone thinking of cruelty, inflicting pain, etc, wouldn't Impress any dragon.
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Old May 29 2014, 06:35 PM   #7
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I like all these suggestions. Which makes me think, where did Toric get the patience to impress (was it 2)? fire lizards? And train them - if not the way Menolly would have, but they did come to his call and obey him
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Old May 30 2014, 01:22 AM   #8
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Default Re: Would a Hatchling Impress to..

Firelizard impression seems to initially be all about shoving food at them. Also, Toric is not (until his character's completely derailed) a complete hothead and he's not psychotic. If anything, he's very methodical, which would seem to work well in training firelizards as they aren't really suited to anything more complex than step by step instructions and you can't rush them.
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Old May 30 2014, 01:29 AM   #9
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a holdless former criminal? (Who obviously had to have started young else s/he would be too old to Stand.)

a youth who hired out as a thug, and did harm to others?

the person who hired that thug?

What other situations might a dragon choose to Impress to someone of questionable morals?
Lessa was a killer. The deaths may not have been directly at her hands, but they were at her instigation. We know she rid herself of two of Fax's wardens - one of whom was actually a decent person. She regretted removing him for the sake of her own survival and more general greater good (as SHE perceived it), but that didn't stop her. She also brought Ruatha to a state of near-collapse, which must have caused widespread suffering to many. Sure, she had good reason to want to revenge herself on Fax, but she was pretty indiscriminate about it. And look how caring she was of Gemma as she died!


Dragons aren't Valdemar Companions. They're sensitive to psychic potential first and foremost, and in the absence of good character they'll take any receptive mind. The First Pass saw dragons dying unimpressed due to the lack of young people with sufficient receptivity, but the Weyrs of later Passes never really suffered that type of loss from a limited pool - the kids of their own Lower Caverns (the Oldtimers rarely Searched widely) might not have been the best people that Pern had to offer, but they had the genetic and psychic heritage of dragonriders. Nor can a dragon prevent a person from going wrong or slipping into corruption. Anne's dragons don't always show great subtlety in their understanding of human mentality, as much as I like to write them otherwise.

You should check out Faye Upton's essay on Impression on the Dragonchoice site. I think she nails it.

Also - are you Daily Dot Aja? If so, it would be nice to know if you're asking out of general interest or for work purposes.
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Old May 30 2014, 02:22 AM   #10
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I am not at Daily Dot. In fact, don't even know what it is, but I shall look it up.


Edit: I see. An Aja on the staff there. No, I assure you I am not that person.

Last edited by Aja; May 30 2014 at 06:57 AM.
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Old May 30 2014, 09:58 PM   #11
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Lessa meets many of the psychological qualifications for psychopathy. She "gets better" for a value of better after Impressing, but I still wouldn't argue she's inherently any different than Thella OTHER than her reasons seeming more justified and her eventual reform into a powerful, canny Weyrwoman.
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Old May 31 2014, 12:50 AM   #12
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I am not at Daily Dot. In fact, don't even know what it is, but I shall look it up.


Edit: I see. An Aja on the staff there. No, I assure you I am not that person.
AJA: Would you mind telling me please, where did you see an Aja on the staff here?
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Old May 31 2014, 01:25 AM   #13
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By "here" you're referring to Daily Dot?

http://www.dailydot.com/masthead/


I assume that's what prompted the question if I was from Daily Dot.
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Old May 31 2014, 02:20 AM   #14
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Default Re: Would a Hatchling Impress to..

Yes. She's a well known fandom personality, Lily, with an unfortunate knack of collecting trouble in her wake. It's not likely that she'd pick a small, dying fandom like this, but local-Aja's post did have a very information-gathering feel to it.

Apologies, local-Aja for questioning your identity! And carry on asking questions/provoking discussion . you're doing great.
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Old May 31 2014, 08:01 AM   #15
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Aja: I apologise, I misread one crucial letter in the sentence : I see. An Aja on the staff there. No, I assure you I am not that person. "
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Old May 31 2014, 09:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
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It's not likely that she'd pick a small, dying fandom like this, but local-Aja's post did have a very information-gathering feel to it.

Apologies, local-Aja for questioning your identity! And carry on asking questions/provoking discussion . you're doing great.

No apologies necessary. My original post did have an information-gathering feel to it as I am trying on plot material with you guys.

Although I discovered the world of Pern when I was a teenager many, many, many years ago, I did not discover this board until fairly recently, so well past the majority of the most interesting discussions, much to my lament.


Lily, tis not a problem. I thought you had misread "there" as "here" when I read your post. All is well.
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Old May 31 2014, 10:59 AM   #17
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They could choose to impress anyone, not just candidates. They could chose an old person or someone others do not approve of.
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Old May 31 2014, 11:04 AM   #18
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I got a P.M from my cousin who took my goat, Aries. A man came to get some chickens and Aries would not leave him along. He kept licking the guy and talking to him. He called Karen later and asked if she would be interested in getting rid of him. Karen told if he came back and Aries got into his van she would let him have him. When he went to get him they put him on a leash, apparently Aries went off. As soon as the leash was off he walked to the guys minivan got in and sat down. When the guy got in Aries licked him some more and talked to him. They have a couple of other goats and are happy to have him.
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Old May 31 2014, 11:58 AM   #19
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Psssst. (I think your last post might be in the wrong thread?) Great news about Aries, though!
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Old May 31 2014, 12:20 PM   #20
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He Impressed the goat!
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Old May 31 2014, 05:43 PM   #21
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Psssst. (I think your last post might be in the wrong thread?) Great news about Aries, though!
I thought so too, l then I saw the next post:

Quote:
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He Impressed the goat!
Oh very nice! Next we'll see goats can fly!!!

Now I'm multi-quoting just because I can!!

The spell check picked up that I meant TOO, when I left out an "O" first time!!!
It's a grammar check too!!!
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Old Jul 15 2014, 02:08 AM   #22
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Default Re: Would a Hatchling Impress to..

I see K'van mentioned up there once. He was injured, and doing his best to get to the grounds. Heth was looking specifically for him. I do believe that the candidates getting use to the eggs helps in injuries but not in influencing that hatchling to choose the boy or girl that feels that's "their" egg. The dragon knows it's Weyrmate before hatching in my opinion. If I remember correctly Brekke first stood when Prideth chose Kylara.
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Old Jul 15 2014, 05:19 AM   #23
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I see K'van mentioned up there once. He was injured, and doing his best to get to the grounds. Heth was looking specifically for him. I do believe that the candidates getting use to the eggs helps in injuries but not in influencing that hatchling to choose the boy or girl that feels that's "their" egg. The dragon knows it's Weyrmate before hatching in my opinion. If I remember correctly Brekke first stood when Prideth chose Kylara.

You remember wrong, I'm afraid. Kylara was the only candidate for Prideth. Brekke describes her Search and Impression with F'nor in Dragonquest, and based on that it was a real whirlwind of arrival and impression very soon after.
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Old Jul 16 2014, 04:34 PM   #24
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I find it hard to label anyone as truly good or evil. Everyone has a degree of both within them, and that is one of the reasons why I love DRoP series; the characters are rich with this philosophy. Yes, some characters are questionable, maybe most are questionable. But the successful, perhaps the 'good' characters sometimes walk a fine line between doing the right thing & acting on their selfish impulses.

Sometimes, it is the selfish impulses that drives the story forward, sometimes, it is a character's obligation to 'do the right (Traditional) thing' that proves disastrous in future events.

I can't agree that Lessa is a psychopath. She watched her family die at the age of 10 or so, at the hands of Fax. What she did was a matter of survival first, and reinstating Ruatha to its proper Bloodline second, but survival was the first thing on her mind, in order to effect the second.

I think Kylara was always narcissist in nature, but when approached with the prospect of impressing a queen, she swallowed that narcissism to bow to Lessa's candidate training, because Kylara knew that to be a Queen Rider is to have nearly limitless power. At no time did Kylara ever exhibit any penchant for assuming her responsibility as a weyrwoman, or a Queen Rider, but never passed up a chance to flout her authority and position.

Who knows why Prideth chose Kylara? Was Kylara the only candidate for Prideth? Did Kylara's whole psyche 'want' to impress more strongly than any other possible candidate? I think that Kylara was on the verge of being totally consumed with herself when she impressed Prideth; after all, she was desperate to attain a position of power, having tried to seduce F'lar & other dragonmen, mostly unsuccessfully.

I think it was Kylara's own strong psyche that allowed her to bury her narcissistic nature just long enough to Impress Prideth. Once Impressed, Prideth and Kylara were able to 'grow' together, each one having a subtle influence on the other. Prideth just wanted Kylara's attention, which Kylara would do without reserve or rancor, because, in Kylara's mind, Prideth is a part of herself, and deserved to have Kylara's full attention, but without moderation. When Kylara disregarded the precautions involving mating flights, she made a terrible, and costly mistake.

On the other hand, Lessa's drive to see Ruatha and Pern flourish, is exactly what an impressing dragon looks for in a mate. Lessa's survival instinct never let up after affecting her own 'rescue' by F'lar & the death of Fax; it simply shifted into high gear.

"If I survive, Ruatha will survive and flourish."

"If I give up Ruatha, I can still see that it survives and flourishes, as all of Pern should."

I think that this kind of drive in the human psyche is what was bred in the dragons in the first place.
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Old Jul 16 2014, 10:53 PM   #25
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You remember wrong, I'm afraid. Kylara was the only candidate for Prideth. Brekke describes her Search and Impression with F'nor in Dragonquest, and based on that it was a real whirlwind of arrival and impression very soon after.
I don't think Kylara is the ONLY Candidate presented. She's the only one mentioned, and Lessa straight-up coaches her, but I can't imagine the F'lar of Dragonflight, who was taking giving the dragons a choice seriously, would have gambled on pre-Impression not working and losing their only backup queen at hatching. Brekke was definitely not there, though--I don't think Wirenth is even Ramoth's second daughter. The timing in DF would place her three or more years later.
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Old Jul 18 2014, 11:42 PM   #26
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Ramoth does indeed have at least five daughters by DQ:

Kylara and Prydeth - Weyrwoman at Southern
? Celina and Lamanth ?
? and ? - another Benden junior ? Adrea and Beljeth? They become WW of Southern after Kylara.
? and ? - another Benden junior, possibly Varena and Ralenth who move to Southern at some point.

And after this, Ramoth gets pissy so they have to move Brekke and Wireneth off to Southern as soon as they're between-trained.

Brekke and Wireneth

Later queens from Ramoth:

Talina and ?

Breda and Amaranth - in AtWoP, this hatching is specified as Ramoth's 35th, and her first queen in twelve "seasons" which is very ambiguous. Twelve planetary seasons? I've always read it as Ramoth's "seasons".
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Old Jul 19 2014, 01:03 AM   #27
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Talina and Arwith, at Monaco Weyr.
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Old Jul 19 2014, 05:35 PM   #28
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Almost all of the known juniors move on from Benden, though, which raises the question: who is Lessa's successor? There are probably a number of unnamed queenriders in that list. I would guess at a minimum of ten queens out of Ramoth. (And maybe a few out of her juniors, though canon often makes it seem as though the juniors don't lay queens as often as the dominant senior queen.)

One of the questions I had hoped the last book would answer.
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Old Jul 20 2014, 12:15 AM   #29
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Lessa is Weyrwoman until Ramoth fails to rise to mate, and the next Benden gold to rise becomes Weyr-queen, with her rider becoming Weyrwoman. There's no possible answer to the question of successors.

I'd say it's unlikely that Lessa and Ramoth will rule the entire Pass -- if that had ever happened before, there'd be a Harper song about it. Lessa would be in her 70s by the end of the Pass. Maybe they'll take early retirement.

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Old Jul 20 2014, 09:48 PM   #30
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The Weyrwoman can step down, though, can't she? That would allow her to plan whose queen would be the next due to fly. Wasn't it Leri who did that? After her dragon hadn't risen for some time, stepped down when Moreta was due to fly next? Or am I remembering wrong?
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Old Jul 20 2014, 10:07 PM   #31
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I think it was Pilgra and her Weyrleader who decided to retire in Skies of Pern. They came to Benden to consult with Lessa and F'lar and choose their Weyrhold.
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Old Jul 20 2014, 11:46 PM   #32
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It's implied that Leri chose to step down with Moreta in mind, but obviously there's a risk to that.
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Old Jul 21 2014, 08:08 PM   #33
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1. Presumably if you're a retiring WW exercising her "right" to choose a successor you leave nothing to chance and wait as long as possible, until you're sure you have it lined up.

2. Most of the queenflights we see are maiden flights and so presumably a little bit unpredictable given the queen doesn't have a cycle yet. But after that, a queen probably settles into a regular pattern that is charted by everyone in the Weyr. In situations like Torene's, where there's an abundance of elder queenriders to educate the juniors, juniors are probably informed well in advance that their queen is ready.

3. I suspect that traditionally, very few new Weyrwomen get the job by chance. A Weyrwoman "new" to the title of senior probably has years of training behind her, as Moreta did.

4. Even in the case of sudden death of a WW (Moreta) we see that the Weyr by and large knows which of the breeding queens is likely to rise next and that queenrider becomes the assumptive Weyrwoman.
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Old Jul 22 2014, 08:29 AM   #34
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I think it was Kylara's own strong psyche that allowed her to bury her narcissistic nature just long enough to Impress Prideth. Once Impressed, Prideth and Kylara were able to 'grow' together, each one having a subtle influence on the other. Prideth just wanted Kylara's attention, which Kylara would do without reserve or rancor, because, in Kylara's mind, Prideth is a part of herself, and deserved to have Kylara's full attention, but without moderation. When Kylara disregarded the precautions involving mating flights, she made a terrible, and costly mistake.
Prideth outright criticized Kylara about the way she treated T'bor. If Kyalara wasn't the only candidate, there weren't many others and with Kylara's inflated view of herself, she may have projected much more confidence especially with her familiarity with Prideth's egg.
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Old Jul 22 2014, 12:18 PM   #35
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It's implied that Leri chose to step down with Moreta in mind, but obviously there's a risk to that.
The first chapter of MoretaLoP states that Moreta and Orlith "had only recently become the leading pair at Fort Weyr when Leri's Holth had not risen to mate the previous winter".

I don't know how they'd know Holth was past mating age rather than just late
(thinking of all the "little surprises" humans have around menopause) -- maybe the dragons know. But Leri had been suffering with arthritis for some time already, so it would have seemed an opportune time for her to retire. Maybe the tradition of "the next queen to rise determines who is the new Weyrwoman" was not set in stone, and Leri could have remained acting Weyrwoman until the most suitable queen rose to mate. (After all, they could have got somebody completely inexperienced.)

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All references to worlds and characters based on Anne McCaffrey’s fiction are copyright © Anne McCaffrey 1967-2008, all rights reserved, and used by permission of the author.