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Old Oct 12 2006, 08:58 AM   #1
Shalyn
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Default Southern breeding project

Anyway - didn't F'nor spend four Turns down South? So now he's a year older than F'lar?

Our resident quote queen would be able to find that reference.

However, I think he could have only been down there a bit more than two. Time enough for Prideth to Rise once, eggs Hatch, then come back before she's ready to Rise again. Otherwise there would have been more than one Clutch.

Speaking of...didn't F'lar think about that? He sends them ten years downtime, but only enough candidates for one clutch. How long did he want them to stay? Was F'nor to come back every six months or so to pick up more candidates?

Last edited by Cheryl; Oct 12 2006 at 10:40 AM. Reason: Snipped from inside another topic where it was OT.
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Old Oct 12 2006, 10:39 AM   #2
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Yes, F'nor spent four years down South on the breeding project. There are a couple of key quotes that make that clear, though they're easy to miss when you read. The implied timeline is that it took three Turns for Pridith to mature, then she rose once and the hatchlings had a year to mature before they came back. She ought to have risen at least once more, but perhaps they went back too many years for the pre-Pass trigger for more flights? If queens switch from rising once every few years, to twice a year, that will quickly increase the population -- so they probably don't need to start the increased flights more than a few years before the Pass begins.

I'd never thought about the number of candidates before, but that's a huge flaw in F'lar's plan! Since they were only to be gone from present time for a couple days, yet have 10 turns of clutches -- that's A LOT of candidates for F'lar to have to try to round up and get sent down South in a few days time. Not possible I would say, with the attitude of the Lords Holder!
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Old Oct 12 2006, 10:59 AM   #3
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

Thanks, Shalyn.

DQ online:

Quote:
Send Kylara back… where to? When to?" Lessa interrupted him.
"Good point." F'lar dragged out the ubiquitous charts. "Very good point. Where can we send them around here without causing anomalies by being present at one of the other Weyrs? The High Reaches are remote. No, we've found remains of fires there, you know, still warm, and no inkling as to who built them or why. And if we had already sent them back, they'd've been ready for today, and they weren't. So they can't have been in two places already... ." He shook his head, dazed by the paradoxes.
Lessa's eyes were drawn to the blank outline of the neglected Southern Continent. "Send them there," she suggested sweetly, pointing. "There's nothing there."
"They bring in what they need. There must be water, for Threads can't devour that. We fly in whatever else is needed, fodder for the herdbeasts, grain... ."
F'lar drew his brows together in concentration, his eyes sparkling with thought, the depression and defeat of a few moments ago forgotten.
"Threads wouldn't be there ten Turns ago. And haven't been there for close to four hundred. Ten Turns would give Pridith time to mature and have several clutches. Maybe more queens."
Then he frowned and shook his head dubiously. "No, there's no Weyr there. No Hatching Ground, no…"
Quote:
"F'lar, it's not working out! You can't be alive in two times at once!" F'nor was exclaiming distractedly. He staggered against the wall, grabbing the sheer rock to hold himself upright. There were deep circles under his eyes, visible despite the tan. "I don't know how much longer we can last like this. We're all affected. Some days not as badly as others."
"I don't understand."
"Your dragons are all right," F'nor assured the Weyrleader with a bitter laugh. "It doesn't bother them. They keep all they wits about them. But their riders… all the weyrfolk… we're shadows, half alive, like dragonless men, part of us gone forever. Except Kylara." His face contorted with intense dislike. "All she wants to do is go back and watch herself. The woman's egomania will destroy us all, I'm afraid."
...However, he has come back. So he did go," F'lar remarked slowly in a reflective tone of voice. "Yet we now know the venture is not entirely successful even before it begins. And knowing this, we have sent him back ten Turns for whatever good it is doing." F'lar paused thoughtfully. "Consequently we have no alternative but to continue with the experiment."
Quote:
Not yet," F'lar reminded her. "Look, although F'nor warned us that the situation in his time is getting desperate, he didn't tell us how much he was able to accomplish. But you noticed that his scar had healed to invisibility – consequently some Turns must have elapsed. Even if Pridith lays only one good-sized clutch, even if just the forty of Ramoth's are mature enough to fight in three days' time, we have accomplished something. Therefore, Weyrwoman," and he noticed how she straightened up at the sound of her title, "we must disregard F'nor's return. When you fly to the Southern Continent tomorrow, make no allusion to it. Do you understand?"
Quote:
matter of fact, the moment F'lar outlined the bold venture of scouting the Southern Continent with the possibility of starting a Weyr ten Turns back in time, F'nor forgot all about his wounds.
"I'll go willingly only if you send T'bor along with Kylara. I'm not waiting till N'ton and his bronze are big enough to take her on. T'bor and she are as – " F'nor broke on with a grimace in Lessa's direction. "Well, they're as near a pair as can be. I don't object to being… importuned, but there are limits to what a man is willing to do out of loyalty to dragonkind."
F'lar barely managed to restrain the amusement he felt over F'nor's reluctance. Kylara tried her wiles on every rider, and, because F'nor had not been amenable, she was determined to succeed with him.
"I hope two bronzes are enough. Pridith may have a mind of her own, come matingtime."
"You can't turn a brown into a bronze!" F'nor exclaimed with such dismay that F'lar could no longer restrain himself.
"Oh, stop it!" And that touched off Lessa's laughter.
Quote:
He strode out of the Council Room, up the passageway into the queen's weyr, and parted the still swinging curtains into the sleeping room just as F'nor was pouring himself a cup of wine.
"Success!" F'nor cried as the Weyrleader entered. "Though how you knew to send just thirty-two candidates I'll never understand. I thought you were insulting our noble Pridith. But thirty-two eggs she laid in four days. It was all I could do to keep from riding out when the first appeared."
F'lar responded with hearty congratulations, relieved that there would be at least that much benefit from this apparently ill-fated venture. Now all he had to figure out was how much longer F'nor had stayed south until his frantic visit the night before. For there were no worry lines or strain in F'nor's grinning, well-tanned face.
"No queen egg?" asked F'lar hopefully. With thirty two in the one experiment, perhaps they could send a second queen back and try again.
F'nor's face lengthened. "No, and I was sure there would be. But there are fourteen bronzes. Pridith outmatched Ramoth there," he added proudly.
"Indeed she did. How goes the Weyr otherwise?"
F'nor frowned, shaking his head against an inner bewilderment. "Kylara's… well, she's a problem. Stirs up trouble constantly. T'bor leads a sad time with her, and he's so touchy everyone keeps a distance from him." F'nor brightened a little. "Young N'ton is shaping up into a fine wingleader, and his bronze may outfly T'bor's Orth when Pridith flies to mate the next time. Not that I'd wish Kylara on N'ton… or anyone."
"No trouble then with supplies?"
F'nor laughed outright. "If you hadn't made it so plain we must not communicate with you here, we could supply you with fruits and fresh greens that are superior to anything in the north. We eat the way dragonmen should! F'lar, we must consider a supply Weyr down there. Then we shall never have to worry about tithing trains and…"
Quote:
Hmmm? Oh, yes, that's right. I forget time is creeping for us and speeding for you. Well, I shan't be back again till Pridith lays the second clutch."
With a cheerful good-bye, F'nor strode out of the weyr. F'lar watched him thoughtfully as he slowly retraced his steps to the Council Room. Thirty-two new dragons, fourteen of them bronzes, was no small gain and seemed worth the hazard. Or would the hazard wax greater?
Quote:
F'lar shook his head. "We have obviously succeeded in sending Kylara, Pridith, and the others ten Turns between, because F'nor has already reported to me that he has been there several Turns. The drain on humans, however, is becoming more and more marked. But even seventy-two more mature dragons will be a help."
Quote:
On the chance that it would be practical, I started packing supplies and alerting the riders to go with you," he told F'nor when the account was finished. "Remember, we've only three days in this time in which to start you back ten Turns ago. We have no moments to spare. And we must have many more mature dragons ready to fight at Telgar in three days' time. So, though ten Turns will have passed for you, three days only will elapse here. Lessa, your thought that the farm-bred might do better is well-taken. We're lucky that our recent Search for rider candidates for the dragons Pridith will have come mainly from the crafts and farms. No problem there. And most of the thirty-two are in them: early teens."
"Thirty-two?" F'nor exclaimed. "We should have fifty. The dragonets must have some choice, even if we get the candidates used to the dragonets before they're hatched."
F'lar shrugged negligently. "Send back for more. You'll have time, remember," and F'lar chuckled as though he had started to add something and decided against it.
Quote:
F'nor had no time to debate with the Weyrleader, for F'lar immediately launched on other rapid instructions.
F'nor was to take his own wingriders to help train the weyrlings. They would also take the forty young dragons of Ramoth's first clutch: Kylara with her queen Pridith, T'bor and his bronze Piyanth. N'ton's young bronze might also be ready to fly and mate by the time Pridith was, so that gave the young queen two bronzes at least.
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Old Oct 12 2006, 03:25 PM   #4
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

Yeah, i didn't think of that until you mentioned it, Cheryl. Even if they sent all Weyr children of the right age, there'd still be a need for outside Candidates. And yes i know not all Weyr children would Impress.


Hmm..I could see them returning just before Pridith was due to rise again, accounting for why there was only one clutch.
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Old Oct 12 2006, 03:37 PM   #5
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

I got the impression that the experiment was aborted and they returned early, partly because F'lar had to call them over and partly cos they couldn't cope!

The whole 3 years thing comes from MHOP doesn't it. I always assumed F'nor was more than 3 years younger than F'lar as he remains younger throughout the books. Besides MHOP contradicts with the F'lar and F'nor's impressions as it talks about more than 1 bronze in the clutch.
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Old Oct 12 2006, 04:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith View Post
I got the impression that the experiment was aborted and they returned early, partly because F'lar had to call them over and partly cos they couldn't cope!

The whole 3 years thing comes from MHOP doesn't it. I always assumed F'nor was more than 3 years younger than F'lar as he remains younger throughout the books. Besides MHOP contradicts with the F'lar and F'nor's impressions as it talks about more than 1 bronze in the clutch.
Where do we see any amount of dragons in the clutch besides MHoP? We see several bronzes hatch in the book./
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Old Oct 12 2006, 05:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

It's mentioned in DF- can't give a page reference as my copy is 50 miles away- that Mnementh was the only Bronze in that clutch- I have a feeling it's either near the beginning or in the bit about F'nor commenting about how Canth was still gorging more than Mnementh.
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Old Oct 12 2006, 05:11 PM   #8
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

Chimmie's quotes support that they were sent back 10 Turns, and that they abandoned it early rather than staying the full 10. But in my scan of them she's missing the key quote I can remember that mentions the actual duration to be 4 Turns.

I'm sure I can dig it up if anyone really wants it, but that basics of it are that they're thinking about the herdbeasts abandoned in the south as a potential food source, considering they've had 6 Turns to breed on their own.

I think there's a second quote supporting the 4 Turn figure as well, but it's not stuck in my head.
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Old Oct 12 2006, 06:31 PM   #9
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

I'm not sure, Edith: all I found about gorgin':

DF online:

Quote:
He eats light," F'nor commented. "Canth's still gorging."
"Browns are slow to get full growth," F'lar drawled, watching with satisfaction as F'nor's eyes flashed angrily. That would teach him to withhold news.
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Old Oct 12 2006, 06:37 PM   #10
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

More quotes: DF online:

Quote:
Quote:
EVEN AS the five Weyrs had been settling around Ruatha Valley, F'nor had been compelled to bring forward in time his southern weyrfolk. They had all reached the end of endurance in double-time life, gratefully creeping back to quarters they had vacated two days and ten Turns ago.
Maybe what you saw, Cheryl:

Quote:
"There's the southern Weyr," F'nor suggested. "We've been gone from there six Turns in this time, and the herdbeasts were left. They'll have multiplied, and there'll be all that fruit and grain."
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Old Oct 12 2006, 07:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

That's the one Chimmie!
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Old Oct 13 2006, 03:18 AM   #12
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

It must be at the beginning then- at least I think it is! Try right at the beginning when we first meet F'lar and F'nor. (My copies, due to space problems and damp air are at home atm- I'm picking them up before McCaffrey Quest!)
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Old Oct 13 2006, 08:13 AM   #13
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

OK - so the project was aborted after four years. That part I understand.

What I don't understand is where F'lar expected to get riders for Pridith's Clutches while they were down South for the full 10 years - which was the original plan.

Were they going to kidnap possible kids from Holds then?

Was F'nor planning on coming back uptime for candidates?

It looks as if F'lar didn't think his 10-year plan fully through.

And...since by the time Pridith was old enough to fly it would have been seven-eight years before the Pass, her mating instinct would have been triggered.

I would think that especially at the beginning of a Pass they would need more riders, since death would be more rampant during a time when you're not used to fighting Thread. After a few years, it should even out.
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Old Oct 13 2006, 08:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalyn View Post
What I don't understand is where F'lar expected to get riders for Pridith's Clutches while they were down South for the full 10 years - which was the original plan.

Were they going to kidnap possible kids from Holds then?

Was F'nor planning on coming back uptime for candidates?

It looks as if F'lar didn't think his 10-year plan fully through.

And...since by the time Pridith was old enough to fly it would have been seven-eight years before the Pass, her mating instinct would have been triggered.
Rosebud.

In addition to uptime searches, F'nor/T'bor could have arranged discreet downtime search parties. Another option is that they took over a lot of the younger weyrfolk, who would be too young to stand for another few years... they could then mature enough in Southern to stand as candidates 5-10 years later.
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Old Oct 13 2006, 09:53 AM   #15
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

also, there's the thing with Nemorth not rising as often as she should do.

Hang on...
F'lar does say something about being able to come back for more!
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Old Oct 13 2006, 02:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

True.

DF online:

Quote:
: We're lucky that our recent Search for rider candidates for the dragons Pridith will have come mainly from the crafts and farms. No problem there. And most of the thirty-two are in them: early teens."
"Thirty-two?" F'nor exclaimed. "We should have fifty. The dragonets must have some choice, even if we get the candidates used to the dragonets before they're hatched."
F'lar shrugged negligently. "Send back for more. You'll have time, remember," and F'lar chuckled as though he had started to add something and decided against it.
F'nor had no time to debate with the Weyrleader, for F'lar immediately launched on other rapid instructions.
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Old Oct 16 2006, 03:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edith View Post
It must be at the beginning then- at least I think it is! Try right at the beginning when we first meet F'lar and F'nor. (My copies, due to space problems and damp air are at home atm- I'm picking them up before McCaffrey Quest!)
I can't remember, nor can I find any mention in DF of Mnementh being the only bronze.

Perhaps you're thinking of this quote?
Quote:
From The Smallest Dragonboy
And if my memory serves me”—which it usually did: Mende knew every word of every Harper’s tale worth telling, although Keevan did not interrupt her to say so—“I don’t believe that F’lar, our Weyrleader, was all that tall when bronze Mnementh chose him. And Mnementh was the only bronze dragon of that hatching.”
And on the off-topic subject of solitary bronze hatchlings, has anyone else ever picked up that Lioth was the only bronze from Ramoth's first clutch? Leastwise, Lioth and Orth were the only two bronze dragons to go on the Southern expedition. (back on topic)
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Old Oct 16 2006, 04:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

No, he couldn't've been - Prideth is described as having produced fourteen bronzes, thus "outdoing Ramoth." While fourteen bronzes would outdo one bronze, I'm sure that she had at least seven bronzes in that clutch. N'ton and Lioth could've been just the most mature - or the only ones mentioned.

DF online:
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Old Oct 16 2006, 04:48 PM   #19
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Possibly cos N'ton was noticed before he impressed as being unusually good- so possibly he and Lioth were the only ones that were a threat to Orth.
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Old Oct 16 2006, 04:58 PM   #20
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

The only mention of N'ton before he Impressed is that he's from the Smith-hall, although he could've been recognized as a good potential rider before.
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Old Oct 16 2006, 05:00 PM   #21
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Nooo...
there's definitely a passage before he impressed that mentions Naton being able to ride another dragon! I think F'lar was worrying about thread!
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Old Oct 16 2006, 05:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Nooo...
there's definitely a passage before he impressed that mentions Naton being able to ride another dragon! I think F'lar was worrying about thread!
good point.

DF online:

Quote:
Granted. Take young Naton; he's craftbred from Nabol, yet F'nor tells me he can make Canth understand him."
He's only mentioned riding Canth possibly after he Impressed.
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Old Oct 16 2006, 05:19 PM   #23
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ah ha! Sorry, mixed the two passages up!
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Old Oct 16 2006, 06:41 PM   #24
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You should be paying attention to the forum not listening to a cassette of total rubbish
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Old Oct 17 2006, 04:43 AM   #25
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It wasn't a cassette it was a radio programme with Leslie Phillips doing the bits in between!
I haven't got my books here- due to space constraints- they're coming back in time for McCaffrey Quest though!- so I'm having to find passages by memory!
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Old Oct 18 2006, 08:03 AM   #26
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaerrha View Post
No, he couldn't've been - Prideth is described as having produced fourteen bronzes, thus "outdoing Ramoth." While fourteen bronzes would outdo one bronze, I'm sure that she had at least seven bronzes in that clutch. N'ton and Lioth could've been just the most mature - or the only ones mentioned.

DF online:
Got a reference for that?

Are you suggesting that Lioth has many bronze siblings, but he was the only one of them to go south? Or are you suggesting that Lioth was the only bronze, besides Orth, who stood a chance at catching Prideth?

In either case:
Quote:
From DragonFlight
F’nor was to take his own wingriders to help train the weyrlings. They would also take the forty young dragons of Ramoth’s first clutch: Kylara with her queen Pridith, T’bor and his bronze Piyanth (Orth). N’ton’s young bronze might also be ready to fly and mate by the time Pridith was, so that gave the young queen two bronzes at least.
Two bronzes at least… Hmmm, I suppose that could mean there’re more, but why then does F’lar say “I hope two bronzes are enough. Pridith may have a mind of her own, come mating time.” It seems awfully unfair to count whatever other bronzes might be there out without any chance.
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Old Oct 18 2006, 09:14 AM   #27
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Default Re: Southern breeding project

This also implies that there are no bronzes in F'nor's Wing.

However, this quote does imply that Lioth is the only bronze from Ramoth's Clutch, since he's not old enough to fly (a queen, at least) yet. Because N'ton had to have Impressed Ramoth's first Clutch - otherwise Lessa wouldn't refer to him as Naton.

Another case of not thinking the story through, I believe.
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Old Oct 18 2006, 09:53 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisG View Post
Got a reference for that?

Are you suggesting that Lioth has many bronze siblings, but he was the only one of them to go south? Or are you suggesting that Lioth was the only bronze, besides Orth, who stood a chance at catching Prideth?

In either case:

Two bronzes at least… Hmmm, I suppose that could mean there’re more, but why then does F’lar say “I hope two bronzes are enough. Pridith may have a mind of her own, come mating time.” It seems awfully unfair to count whatever other bronzes might be there out without any chance.
Reference:

DF online:

Quote:
No queen egg?" asked F'lar hopefully. With thirty two in the one experiment, perhaps they could send a second queen back and try again.
F'nor's face lengthened. "No, and I was sure there would be. But there are fourteen bronzes. Pridith outmatched Ramoth there," he added proudly.
"Indeed she did. How goes the Weyr otherwise?"...With a cheerful good-bye, F'nor strode out of the weyr. F'lar watched him thoughtfully as he slowly retraced his steps to the Council Room. Thirty-two new dragons, fourteen of them bronzes, was no small gain and seemed worth the hazard. Or would the hazard wax greater?
I meant that Lioth maybe was the only bronze of Ramoth's first clutch to go south.
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Old Oct 18 2006, 09:57 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalyn View Post
This also implies that there are no bronzes in F'nor's Wing.

However, this quote does imply that Lioth is the only bronze from Ramoth's Clutch, since he's not old enough to fly (a queen, at least) yet. Because N'ton had to have Impressed Ramoth's first Clutch - otherwise Lessa wouldn't refer to him as Naton.

Another case of not thinking the story through, I believe.
Yup - and we know N'ton Impressed from the first clutch because Lessa says he Impressed right after they Hatch.

Also, I don't see why one of the other bronze riders couldn't've gone south: the other bronze riders include:

DF online:

Quote:
They had turned, grinning at each other, when R'gul came storming into the chamber, S'lel, D'nol, T'bor, and K'net close on his heels
In Ramoth's flight, seven bronzes flew: Mnementh, Tuenth, Hath, Orth, Valenth, Piyanth, and probably Binth.

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Quote:
Fax's tactics would have been successful with R'gul, who was very conscious of his honor, or S'lan or D'nol, who were too young to have developed much patience or discretion
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Old Oct 18 2006, 09:58 AM   #30
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perhaps the two bronzes was about the fact Lioth was going to be the only young bronze mature enough- it is inferred throughout the series that dragons take different times to mature.
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Old Oct 18 2006, 09:59 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by edith View Post
perhaps the two bronzes was about the fact Lioth was going to be the only young bronze mature enough- it is inferred throughout the series that dragons take different times to mature.
Yes, but there were other young bronze riders as stated, including D'nol and S'lan - but maybe they were too integral to Benden to possibly send with Kylara and maybe establish another Weyr.
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Old Oct 18 2006, 10:18 AM   #32
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from that clutch I meant!
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Old Oct 18 2006, 01:07 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaerrha View Post
Reference:

DF online:

No queen egg?" asked F'lar hopefully. With thirty two in the one experiment, perhaps they could send a second queen back and try again.
F'nor's face lengthened. "No, and I was sure there would be. But there are fourteen bronzes. Pridith outmatched Ramoth there," he added proudly.
"Indeed she did. How goes the Weyr otherwise?"...With a cheerful good-bye, F'nor strode out of the weyr. F'lar watched him thoughtfully as he slowly retraced his steps to the Council Room. Thirty-two new dragons, fourteen of them bronzes, was no small gain and seemed worth the hazard. Or would the hazard wax greater?
I was asking for a quote stating that Ramoth produced seven bronze hatchlings in her first clutch.
Quote:
I meant that Lioth maybe was the only bronze of Ramoth's first clutch to go south.
Ramoth clutched forty-one dragons--including Prideth--and from my quote, it says F'lar's sending forty young dragons from Ramoth's first clutch, and Kylara and Prideth, and T'bor and Orth. From the sound of it, all of them go...

Of course, that also brings up another problem: just as the expedition is setting off, a weyrling assigned to Nerat Hold appears with dire news of Thread burrows, to which F'lar asks Mnementh to ask Ramoth to ask the dragonet at Fandarel's crafthall to meet him at Nerat. So either they're still considered weyrlings and dragonets after three Turns--they'd have to be Ramoth's siblings at least--or this is another rosebud.
Quote:
Also, I don't see why one of the other bronze riders couldn't've gone south: the other bronze riders include:
Agreed. It does seem awfully silly especially considering that they'd only be gone from F'lar's time a grand total of three days! Although, F'lar would ... rather have F'nor in charge... Discreetly, of course-- So I guess that means F'nor's able to order T'bor about, but no others. Dunno.
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Old Oct 18 2006, 05:14 PM   #34
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Ramoth didn't hatch seven bronzes - I was just estimating. She could've Hatched 13.

Something interesting:

DF online:

Quote:
Most important, if something goes wrong, you'll have to wait till a bronze is at least a year old to fly [a queen].."
F'lar said:

DF online:

Quote:
"Just as I predicted, a queen egg, by the mother of us all," F'lar's voice said in Lessa's ear. "And I'll wager there'll be ten bronzes at least."
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Old Oct 18 2006, 05:46 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalyn View Post
This also implies that there are no bronzes in F'nor's Wing.

However, this quote does imply that Lioth is the only bronze from Ramoth's Clutch, since he's not old enough to fly (a queen, at least) yet. Because N'ton had to have Impressed Ramoth's first Clutch - otherwise Lessa wouldn't refer to him as Naton.

Another case of not thinking the story through, I believe.
Did F'nor take over F'lar's Wing? In which case there wouldn't be any bronzes in it as the Wings were each led by one of the seven bronzes at the end of the 8th Pass.

I agree the quote rather implies Lioth was the only bronze of Ramoth's first clutch. I liked Edi's thought that perhaps they could tell Lioth was maturing faster than the other bronzes, but how could they tell that with three week old hatchlings? It'd also be silly for golds to mature faster than bronzes, in terms of survival of the species. You wouldn't want a gold to go unflown because none of hatchmates were mature yet and no one else was available for whatever reason (I'm thinking more of firelizards in the wild, but disasters could happen to dragons too -- they were certainly close enough with only 7 bronzes to fly Ramoth).

Ah, and here's a quote to support that bronzes don't take as long to mature as golds: F'lar telling Lessa as he heads to fight Fall that "if something goes wrong, you'll have to wait till a bronze is at least a year old to fly Ramoth..." One year, not two to three.

I think Anne just didn't think it through, and as she hadn't named the rest of Lioth's bronze clutchmates, it it would be an awkard passage to name them then and there, that she went ahead in more storyteller fashion of saying there were just two possible dragons to fly Pridith.

There is evidence that Lioth wasn't the only bronze. N'ton is mentioned as having impressed "a bronze" by F'lar, not the bronze.

*skims more of DF*

Ah, here's an interesting quote:
Quote:
"I'll go willingly only if you send T'bor along with Kylara. I'm not waiting till N'ton and his bronze are big enough to take her on.
To me this remark from F'nor is implying that it's not so much a question of how many bronzes, but how many with riders who can handle Kylara. So perhaps they were indeed other bronze weyrlings but their riders were putty in Kylara's experienced hands.
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Old Oct 18 2006, 05:52 PM   #36
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What I don't understand is where F'lar expected to get riders for Pridith's Clutches while they were down South for the full 10 years - which was the original plan.

Were they going to kidnap possible kids from Holds then?

Was F'nor planning on coming back uptime for candidates?

It looks as if F'lar didn't think his 10-year plan fully through.
Having re-read through the relevant passages, I can cut F'lar some slack now. He and Lessa had just come up with the idea and starting thinking through the basics, when F'nor comes back from between times and says it's not working and they can't stay the whole 10 Turns. So F'lar knew going into it that he wouldn't have to provide candidates for that many clutches.
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Old Oct 21 2006, 12:37 PM   #37
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I think that despite the quote indicating at least 10 bronzes of which Lioth is the only one known by name, it is just not feasible to assume he was the only bronze in a 41 egg clutch while Prideth laid 14 bronze eggs in her southern clutch of 32 total.

All these numbers of bronze dragons and the fact that in F'lar's time as new Weyrleader there were only 7 made me look up my statistics...

- Feyrith's last clutch (in 2465) by Chendith with Nemorth in it had 9 bronzes...
- Nemorth's first clutch (in 2472) by Chendith had 6 bronzes in it...
- Nemorth's (possible) second clutch (in 2488) by Simanith with Mnementh in it had at least 4 bronzes in it...

Apart from any possible bronzes living that had been clutched prior to 2465, that would make at least 19 bronzes by the start of the Ninth Pass? So... 12 of them died between 2465 and 2508 in a time without Thread...? Another thing not thought through when writing about what's in a clutch?

PS Would be quite ironic if it also meant that Hath wasn't able to produce a bronze by Nemorth in the three clutches I think he fathered (the only one know for sure is the 2505 one with Ramoth in it but I extrapolated that there must have been clutches of app. 12 eggs in or around 2494 and 2500, too)
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Old Oct 21 2006, 04:02 PM   #38
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I think S'lan ( think that's the right one) and D'nol are quite a few years younger than F'lar- he describes them as being too young for Fax's tactics.
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Old Oct 21 2006, 04:47 PM   #39
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I think S'lan ( think that's the right one) and D'nol are quite a few years younger than F'lar- he describes them as being too young for Fax's tactics.
Yup.

Although we only know of seven bronzes and their riders.
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Old Oct 21 2006, 07:25 PM   #40
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that says that there are fewer bronzes per clutch. T'bor and F'lar appear to be of a similar age, though possibly T'bor is older- he ages faster through the series and R'gul, S'lel are similar age though S'lel is younger than R'gul. Who's the seventh one again?

so it could average out at two or less bronzes per clutch, esp. if you consider greens tend to make up about 50% so, if Nemorth has clutches of about 12, that leaves 6ish dragons to be blue, brown and Bronze.
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