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Old Jan 24 2006, 10:08 PM   #1
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Default Do Errors Bother You?

Do errors in the Pern books bother you? As previously mentioned, DLG was rife with errors, apparently both editions. It didn't bother me so much as make me a little sad that a better proofread didn't happen.

Also, I found it hard to swallow the idea of watchwher's "eating thread" in Todd's book.
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Old Jan 25 2006, 12:39 AM   #2
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Default Re: Do Errors Bother You?

I haven't read either copy of the DLG, so I can't help. If there's errors in books, I tend to simply correct them in my head.
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Old Jan 25 2006, 01:26 AM   #3
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Not really. I tend to ignore them and read on, unless the error is massive.
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Old Jan 25 2006, 02:53 AM   #4
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Default Re: Do Errors Bother You?

Depends on what sort. I misname, or doubled dragon name etc. doesn't get to me at all. Inconsistancies with dragon size and issues like that, they irk me a bit, but doesn't bother me that much. Blatant lapses of common sense, or continuity which are SO obvious, like with the whers, and them eating Thread, bother me to no end!

DLG errors I just completely overlook, because it's more full of holes than a target practice board and it's useless getting upset over it.
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Old Jan 25 2006, 04:53 AM   #5
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Default Re: Do Errors Bother You?

According to Anne, Firelizards eat thread (ref Dragonquest) - so I assumed that Todd picked up on that idea, and expanded it - given that whers were made from the same genetic codes.

Accross the books there are many inconsistencies, and errors - I have loads listed on my site, and possible explinations (if any are possible).

DLG was a good idea, and a is still a good book - BUT it could have been better. I find it strange that Anne let it be published with so many errors, and inconsistencies, but if you can look beyond them there are a lot of good things with in it.

What was the question? Oh yes. I suppose they do, but I love the series, so I have learned to live with them
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Old Jan 25 2006, 07:54 AM   #6
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Default Re: Do Errors Bother You?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayru
According to Anne, Firelizards eat thread (ref Dragonquest)
Just on that, I think it's been discussed and IIRC it was assumed to mean that the speaker (who I think wasn't particularly reliable - either Kylara or Meron possibly) was going for effect and not accuracy (plus lack of immediacy etc).

I think Dragonsdawn and the later books put it to rest that firelizards flame Thread and do not eat it. Surely eating an organism that consumes organic life would be a bit silly unless it was dead first (ie like dolphins do)?

As for whers eating it ......... I'm not convinced!

And as for errors, they do bug me, yes. Glaring, startling errors really do grate and do affect my reading enjoyment. Smaller errors such as typos and lines appearing in paragraphs (one of my editions of one book has that twice in once chapter) also annoy me because that is what copyeditors and proof-readers are for, but they don't affect the enjoyment as such. Just a quick "tsk" and away I go.
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Old Jan 25 2006, 08:10 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Gidget2
Just on that, I think it's been discussed and IIRC it was assumed to mean that the speaker (who I think wasn't particularly reliable - either Kylara or Meron possibly) was going for effect and not accuracy (plus lack of immediacy etc).
It was Kylara, and she makes it clear that she didn't give her fire-lizzard firestone as wanted it to mate. Yes perhaps she was lying, but given that she wanted Meron to experiance what a mating flight was like you have to wander...

We know from Dragonsdawn that fire-lizzards were tampered with, and that both Dragons and Whers were made from the same genetic mix. Whers were made to be very different to dragons (ref Dragonsblood).

We know so little about Thread why is it impossible that it can be eaton? If the Whers were designed to do it, why shouldn't they be able to? Why would it be less dangerous for the dolphins and fish to eat? The science of Pern has never been, "spot on." The books are, what they are; Fiction. Best to read them that way. But that's just my opinion

As for the errors, and contridictions, and continuity errors (of which there are many); none detract from the story.
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Old Jan 25 2006, 08:33 AM   #8
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Default Re: Do Errors Bother You?

Bad errors-they grate
small errors my brain corrects!
Having read a series of books where there were so many mistakes a character who was 12 in 1925 is 21 in 1940, the little peccadilloes here aren't too much of a problem- I haven't read Dblood yet though...
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Old Jan 25 2006, 10:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayru
It was Kylara, and she makes it clear that she didn't give her fire-lizzard firestone as wanted it to mate. Yes perhaps she was lying, but given that she wanted Meron to experiance what a mating flight was like you have to wander...

We know from Dragonsdawn that fire-lizzards were tampered with, and that both Dragons and Whers were made from the same genetic mix. Whers were made to be very different to dragons (ref Dragonsblood).

We know so little about Thread why is it impossible that it can be eaton? If the Whers were designed to do it, why shouldn't they be able to? Why would it be less dangerous for the dolphins and fish to eat? The science of Pern has never been, "spot on." The books are, what they are; Fiction. Best to read them that way. But that's just my opinion
Whers weren't designed to eat Thread - they were mistakes that Wind Blossom made when trying to engineer more dragons from the information that Kitti Ping left in her notes. They are photophobic which is why they are used in mining and as night-time guards.

Taking information from Dragonsblood and using it as cannon is a risky business. There are a lot of people who would agree that there are a lot of problems with the statements Todd makes about Pern. I don't remember that book stating that whers were made intentionally to be different. Perhaps after Wind Blossom realised the positives of "the uglies" she has created then more are hatched to be that way on purpose, but they were definitely not originally made with any reason in mind.

Dolphins and fish can eat Thread beause it drowns in water and so somehow death makes Thread innocuous. When it is in the air (where firelizards are attacking it) it is very much 'alive', and then it would be incredibly dangerous for something to jsut go "oooh lunch" and physically eat it.

Presumably the oesophagi of firelizards and dragons have some kind of fire-proofing (unless the chemicals only react with free oxygen? How does firestone work with draconic stomachs?) so *maybe* that deters the harmful properties of Thread and stops it eating into their flesh. But that would mean that Thread wouldn't devour their teeth or any other part of them that would likely come into contact with the Thread (if a fire-lizard is flying at a downward-streaking Thread, there is going to be overspill and general nastiness).

And if whers and fire-lizards*do* eat Thread and not flame it then why make dragons fire breathing? Why not just make them giant flying mouths?

Just because something is fiction, doesn't mean that it can just make up basic rules. Anne has always described Pern as sci-fi and not fantasy - Pern operates within our Universe and under our universal rules and laws.

Kylara may not have given her fire-lizard firestone. That doesn't mean she didn't find some or tell one of the lesser colours to get it for her. And even on a semantic level, she may not have used "eat" as in ingest. We say acid eats away metal, but it doesn't eat it in the way taht we would eat an apple.

And finally, that is the only place in the main sequence of books where a fire-lizard is desribed as 'eating' Thread. I can't remember if that is in the same book where L'tol's dragon was described as being a green (which miraculously turns out to acutally have been a brown called Larth), but that kind of inconsistency (ie one that has a massive amount of information on the other side of it to disallow it as cannon) must be weeded out and, ideally, changed.
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Old Jan 25 2006, 11:13 AM   #10
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You get the impression that the whole "eating" thread was a boast, and exagerated to make it sound more impressive. -Besides if her queen had flamed, would Kylara have said so, esp. if she thought that it might loose her some respect.

As for the whole point about Pern operating within our universe-yep, ANne has got the down v well-with only 1 exception, phospine! which is so poisonous, that it means a rapid death. Whether, as this was in DF, she meant something else in that family-slightly less poisonous. I don't know.
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Old Jan 25 2006, 12:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
As for the whole point about Pern operating within our universe-yep, Anne has got the down v well-with only 1 exception, phospine! which is so poisonous, that it means a rapid death.
Wikepdia (gawd bless it) has this to say about phosphine: Phosphine is highly toxic to organisms undergoing oxidative respiration, but is non toxic to organisms kept under low oxygen (<1%) or that can anaerobically respire (i.e. ferment).

Which, as you say, is bad. But if the phosphates are solidified in the rock and are somehow turned back into a gaseous form, would they ignite on contact with oxygen and therefore become non-toxic as they are burnt off?

Then again, since this is a naturally-occurring part of the fire-lizard physiogonomy (I may have spelt that wrong), presumably they also evolved a very good way of dealing with the toxic side effects? Since phosphine is only toxic when oxygen is present, perhaps there is no oxygen in the stomach they use to churn the rock and belt out the flame?
Hmmmmm.
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Old Jan 25 2006, 01:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidget2
Whers weren't designed to eat Thread - they were mistakes that Wind Blossom made when trying to engineer more dragons from the information that Kitti Ping left in her notes. They are photophobic which is why they are used in mining and as night-time guards.

Taking information from Dragonsblood and using it as cannon is a risky business. There are a lot of people who would agree that there are a lot of problems with the statements Todd makes about Pern. I don't remember that book stating that whers were made intentionally to be different. Perhaps after Wind Blossom realised the positives of "the uglies" she has created then more are hatched to be that way on purpose, but they were definitely not originally made with any reason in mind.

Dolphins and fish can eat Thread beause it drowns in water and so somehow death makes Thread innocuous. When it is in the air (where firelizards are attacking it) it is very much 'alive', and then it would be incredibly dangerous for something to jsut go "oooh lunch" and physically eat it.

Presumably the oesophagi of firelizards and dragons have some kind of fire-proofing (unless the chemicals only react with free oxygen? How does firestone work with draconic stomachs?) so *maybe* that deters the harmful properties of Thread and stops it eating into their flesh. But that would mean that Thread wouldn't devour their teeth or any other part of them that would likely come into contact with the Thread (if a fire-lizard is flying at a downward-streaking Thread, there is going to be overspill and general nastiness).

And if whers and fire-lizards*do* eat Thread and not flame it then why make dragons fire breathing? Why not just make them giant flying mouths?

Just because something is fiction, doesn't mean that it can just make up basic rules. Anne has always described Pern as sci-fi and not fantasy - Pern operates within our Universe and under our universal rules and laws.

Kylara may not have given her fire-lizard firestone. That doesn't mean she didn't find some or tell one of the lesser colours to get it for her. And even on a semantic level, she may not have used "eat" as in ingest. We say acid eats away metal, but it doesn't eat it in the way taht we would eat an apple.

And finally, that is the only place in the main sequence of books where a fire-lizard is desribed as 'eating' Thread. I can't remember if that is in the same book where L'tol's dragon was described as being a green (which miraculously turns out to acutally have been a brown called Larth), but that kind of inconsistency (ie one that has a massive amount of information on the other side of it to disallow it as cannon) must be weeded out and, ideally, changed.

Wow. You do feel strongly about this. Ok, you're entitled to your own opinion on the matter, as am I.

Taking a possition that only Pern stories you like can be considered "cannon" is a the true dangerous possition my friend. As a fan you have the luxery of choosing not to read any of the books if you so decide. But you should never critisize fans who do read all the books, or draw on them for reference. You may not like the book, and it may not fit in with how you see Pern, but that's your personal choice.

Dragonsblood makes it very clear that the Whers were not accidents, but intentional, and were a part of Kitty Yungs overall plan for defending Pern, becasue there was no guarentee that the dragons would survive. The whers were a safe guard against that.

And as for things not being able to eat thread: what about Tubbermans grubs? They eat thread that falls on the ground. How do they work? They're an Anne creation that has never been explained, and given there size they present a whole new series of problems. So if grubs can eat thread, why can't whers, or fire-lizzards? If it helps, in Dragonsdawn after Tubberman dies his notes are looked over, and one of the things that is made clear is that he has "implimented part of Kitty's plan" but what part no one knows, as Tubberman coded his notes, and Anne never explained it further.

What we actually know about the dragons is very little. Let's face it, it took them 2,500 years to realise that they were telekenetic (Skies of Pern) - an ability they would have got from the fire-lizzard genetic mix. Can we actually state that we know all there is to know about either speices yet? Or is it possible that there are many things still unknown, and not fully understood, about these three alien speices (fire-lizzard, dragon, wher)?

Finally, Kylara and her fire-lizzard; Kylara was a complete nyphomaniac, the women loved sex, and lots of it. I don't believe she would do anything to harm her chances of her fire-lizzard rising to mate. But yes, it has been established that gold fire-lizzards can use fire-stone without becoming infirtile. But then, Kylara wouldn't have known that.

Regardless, the idea of whers operating differently to dragons is not such a big problem. Until Dragon's Kin we knew very little about them.

It's all fiction, make believe, and not real. It's not supposed to conform to how the real universe works - that's the beauty of it.


PS: when it comes to what is "cannon" for Pern and what's not, it's simple: If Anne says it's cannon, then it is.

Last edited by Jayru; Jan 25 2006 at 02:16 PM. Reason: Change of info
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Old Jan 25 2006, 02:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidget2
Wikepdia (gawd bless it) has this to say about phosphine: Phosphine is highly toxic to organisms undergoing oxidative respiration, but is non toxic to organisms kept under low oxygen (<1%) or that can anaerobically respire (i.e. ferment).

Which, as you say, is bad. But if the phosphates are solidified in the rock and are somehow turned back into a gaseous form, would they ignite on contact with oxygen and therefore become non-toxic as they are burnt off?

Then again, since this is a naturally-occurring part of the fire-lizard physiogonomy (I may have spelt that wrong), presumably they also evolved a very good way of dealing with the toxic side effects? Since phosphine is only toxic when oxygen is present, perhaps there is no oxygen in the stomach they use to churn the rock and belt out the flame?
Hmmmmm.
I was thinking of the effect on the riders!
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Old Jan 25 2006, 02:33 PM   #14
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I either ignore them or mentally correct them. Though I've penned over Monarth where it should be Lioth in ATWoP.
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Old Jan 25 2006, 04:35 PM   #15
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Although it would be nice to have less of the (obvious, silly, sometimes stupid) errors, I actually enjoy trying to correct them (we, being Anneli, Cheryl and I actually made lists for Anne when she realised Transworld was going to do a new typeset ) or solve problems that they create (especially genealogically)

I'm at a stage that a Pern book without any erros would actually be disappointing
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Old Jan 25 2006, 04:43 PM   #16
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The big ones irk me, the smaller ones less so. However, that said, I'm sometimes surprised how Anne's stories have the power to hold my interest even when they're less than perfect. In retrospect I think Anne should've stopped writing Pern after AtWoP. I've only managed to read Skies and MHoP once each. And I won't touch anything co-written by Todd.
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Old Jan 25 2006, 10:01 PM   #17
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Ok, there's too much to quote, so I'll just say it here. Firelizards, nor whers can eat thread. I don't see how Todd could possibly think that's concievable. The ONLY way they could do it is if they were engineered in the same manner as the grubs, which I doubt. And as has been mentioned, if they could eat it, using flame would be redundant. We have NEVER seen a dragon eating thread.

Even if Kylara never gave her gold firestone PERSONALLY, they could still seek it out on their own. It's instinct. How else would firelizards flame before there were people around? Everything happened so fast, and since Kylara thought that the gold had never consumed firestone, in her frenzy it muct have seemed as if the firelizard were "eating" it. But the idea of that actually being plausible... why on earth would their mouths be impervious to thread, but the rest of them is completely vulnerable to attack?

As for whers being INTENDED to be that way rather than a flub... this is Todd writing, not Anne. He's using his own ideas, and I in no way consider any of it to be valid.
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Old Jan 26 2006, 02:03 AM   #18
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I agree with you Spiff.
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Old Jan 26 2006, 06:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayru
Taking a possition that only Pern stories you like can be considered "cannon" is a the true dangerous possition my friend. As a fan you have the luxery of choosing not to read any of the books if you so decide. But you should never critisize fans who do read all the books, or draw on them for reference. You may not like the book, and it may not fit in with how you see Pern, but that's your personal choice.
I am not criticising you as a fan, Jayru. Yes, it is my personal choice so please do not patronise me for it (for I prefer not to be referred to as "my friend" if I can possibly avoid it). It isn't because I don't like the book that I find it difficult to consider it as canon - it is because Todd just rides roughshod all over the rules and layouts that Anne has created. And I am not the only one who thinks so.

Quote:
Dragonsblood makes it very clear that the Whers were not accidents, but intentional, and were a part of Kitty Yungs overall plan for defending Pern, becasue there was no guarentee that the dragons would survive. The whers were a safe guard against that.
It's Kitti Ping, btw. And yes, DB does specifically say that whers were deliberate. However, that, for may people, simply does not fit with previously existing information and just tacking a comment like "ha, the general population do not know this - ssshhhh it's a secret and all will be revealed at a much later date" does not magically make it fit.

Quote:
And as for things not being able to eat thread: what about Tubbermans grubs? They eat thread that falls on the ground. How do they work? They're an Anne creation that has never been explained, and given there size they present a whole new series of problems. So if grubs can eat thread, why can't whers, or fire-lizzards? If it helps, in Dragonsdawn after Tubberman dies his notes are looked over, and one of the things that is made clear is that he has "implimented part of Kitty's plan" but what part no one knows, as Tubberman coded his notes, and Anne never explained it further.
Do grubs actually eat Thread? Do they though? As you say, we don't know enough about the grubs yet. But I like 'em.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
But the idea of that actually being plausible... why on earth would their mouths be impervious to thread, but the rest of them is completely vulnerable to attack?
I think Spiff sums it up rather eloquently right there.

Quote:
Finally, Kylara and her fire-lizzard; Kylara was a complete nyphomaniac, the women loved sex, and lots of it. I don't believe she would do anything to harm her chances of her fire-lizzard rising to mate. But yes, it has been established that gold fire-lizzards can use fire-stone without becoming infirtile. But then, Kylara wouldn't have known that.
Again, Spiff has hit the nail on the head in his post below! (Incidentally, nymphomaniacs do not derive any pleasure from sex. Kylara, on the other hand, certainly did and used her sexuality as a means of control.)

Quote:
Regardless, the idea of whers operating differently to dragons is not such a big problem. Until Dragon's Kin we knew very little about them.
Ugh, don't get me starts on Dragon's Kin either ............

Quote:
It's all fiction, make believe, and not real. It's not supposed to conform to how the real universe works - that's the beauty of it.
No, it is science fiction which, by definition, is grounded in fact. Of course it has to conform to how the real universe works! That's what it means! You can't just go around making things up that do not and cannot work or make no sense "just because the author says so". That would make something come under the aegis of Fantasy and not Sci-Fi - and Pern is Sci-Fi (although, admittedly, it has fantasy elements).

Gosh, and I apologise that my and Jayru's banter is quite intensely off-topic!!!!
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Old Jan 26 2006, 06:33 AM   #20
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Default Re: Do Errors Bother You?

- Gidget 2: My applogies if you found the phrase "my friend" patronising. I view all people as friends I have yet to get to know . -


One of the things I think people forget is that it is ok and fine to hold your own views and opinion on any given subject. But there is a fine line between stating your view, and telling someone they're wrong because they see things differently.

Ok, so some people would rather not include Todd's book as being a part of Pern's cannon story line, (regardless of what Anne has stated). That's there choice, and I have no problem with it I think that's a restrictive attitude to take and it will lead to problems for those people in the future - but that's just my opinion But if that's what you believe then you have to be careful in your dealings with those fans that do accept Todd's book as being a part of the official Pern saga, becasue you are applying a restriction to yourself.

I find comments like: "this is Todd writing, not Anne. He's using his own ideas, and I in no way consider any of it to be valid..." or "I won't touch anything co-written by Todd..." amusing. I haven't heard such arguments/statements since Gene Roddenberry died, and Paramount announced Deep Space Nine - which so many fans said would fail, because Gene hadn't had a hand in creating it.

I approached Dragon's Kin and Dragonsblood with an open mind, and enjoyed both. Dragonsblood fit very well in with what Anne has created. It was clever. It was not the "bad" "awful" book that some people claimed it to be, quite the reverse I thought. It was different though, but then it would be - Anne didn't write it. The only real problem with Dragonsblood (aside from two inconsistencies) was the style of writing - but that's because I'm used to Anne's style. I will get used to Todd’s.

I will not restrict my enjoyment of Pern to a narrow vision of it, or even a narrow version. Anne's vision (and version) has always been good enough for me, and very acceptable. Pern has grown and changed - which is what I love about the series. It isn't static. If Anne feels that Todd shares her vision of Pern, then that's good enough for me. It's her world after all, she knows it better then any of us can ever hope to.

This business of thread eating: Pern is fiction. It's not real. It is science fiction (a dictonary definition of science-fiction). It is not meant to conform to real universe physics or facts, and nore does it have to. It is not meant to be scientifically accurate. It is not real. Pern does not exist, except in the imagination and writings of Anne and Todd. The very act of reading a sci-fi or fantasy book means you are suspending real world beliefs to enter and explore this fictional/fantasy world that has been created in someone’s imagination. Wher, fire-lizards and grubs being able to eat thread is no less fantastical then dragons being able to produce flame, or teleport, or move things with there minds - or even exist at all. The beauty of fiction (be it sci-fi or fantasy) is that you can do anything; it is not restrictive except by the boundaries of your own imagination.

Why is a grub being able to eat thread more believable then a wher or fire-lizard being able to do so? We know from Dragonsdawn that Ted Tubbermen made use of part of Kitty's plan. What he created was a grub that eats thread and some large cats (that like attacking dragons, humans, and carry flu viruses - I'm not sure how that is supposed to help fight thread ). The question is what part of Kitty’s plan did he implement? Was it something to do with the cats, or the grubs? That however is another topic for debate - and I am in serious danger of being well off topic here

I agree with Hans, I get very nervous when there isn't an inconsistency within a Pern novel - it's something I expect, and I never have a problem working something out - as the "Arguments" section on Rukbat3 shows. Although some just can't be resolved, and have to be lived with. It has never yet spoiled these books for me though, and I doubt it ever will.

PS: her full name is Kitti (or Kitty, depending on what edition you look at) Ping Yung (ref Dragonsdawn).

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Old Jan 26 2006, 03:26 PM   #21
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Errors don't bother me. I usually don't notice them at first, and when I read about them on the web, I'm like: ah yes, well it's an error. It's very hard to write a book already, and with books like those of Pern with overlapping storylines, a mistake can easily slip in.

Also: Science Fiction is fiction which still follows the rules of this universe. The Pern books don't really do that, so they're not really SF. They're more a merge of SF and fantasy.

Quote:
Ok, there's too much to quote, so I'll just say it here. Firelizards, nor whers can eat thread. I don't see how Todd could possibly think that's concievable. The ONLY way they could do it is if they were engineered in the same manner as the grubs, which I doubt. And as has been mentioned, if they could eat it, using flame would be redundant. We have NEVER seen a dragon eating thread.

Even if Kylara never gave her gold firestone PERSONALLY, they could still seek it out on their own. It's instinct. How else would firelizards flame before there were people around? Everything happened so fast, and since Kylara thought that the gold had never consumed firestone, in her frenzy it muct have seemed as if the firelizard were "eating" it. But the idea of that actually being plausible... why on earth would their mouths be impervious to thread, but the rest of them is completely vulnerable to attack?

As for whers being INTENDED to be that way rather than a flub... this is Todd writing, not Anne. He's using his own ideas, and I in no way consider any of it to be valid.
But you do consider time travel to be possible? And you do consider teleporting to be possible as it is described on Pern?

Or that the grubs can eat thread? How would they be able to?

Maybe Wind Blossom found out how Tubberman did it with the grubs, and she implented the same trick on the whers.

Offcourse it is Todd's writing. If he will continue the series, he can atleast use his own writing style. And the person knowing the most of Pern, even agreed with it.
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Old Jan 26 2006, 04:12 PM   #22
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Do Errors Bother You?.....

Not really.......I can't remember my name half the time, so tend to forget names, etc and just "enjoy the ride!"
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Old Jan 26 2006, 07:11 PM   #23
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Lots of conflicting opinions here isn't there?
But I'm with Jayru on this one.
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Old Jan 26 2006, 07:33 PM   #24
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Personally, I put as much stock in Todd's interpretation of Pern as I do in Brian Herbert's treatment of the Dune universe.
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Old Jan 27 2006, 04:31 AM   #25
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- Gidget 2: My applogies if you found the phrase "my friend" patronising. I view all people as friends I have yet to get to know . -


One of the things I think people forget is that it is ok and fine to hold your own views and opinion on any given subject. But there is a fine line between stating your view, and telling someone they're wrong because they see things differently.

Ok, so some people would rather not include Todd's book as being a part of Pern's cannon story line, (regardless of what Anne has stated). That's there choice, and I have no problem with it I think that's a restrictive attitude to take and it will lead to problems for those people in the future - but that's just my opinion But if that's what you believe then you have to be careful in your dealings with those fans that do accept Todd's book as being a part of the official Pern saga, becasue you are applying a restriction to yourself.
It may be restrictive, but I like to keep my view of Pern (relatively) untainted.

Quote:
I find comments like: "this is Todd writing, not Anne. He's using his own ideas, and I in no way consider any of it to be valid..." or "I won't touch anything co-written by Todd..." amusing. I haven't heard such arguments/statements since Gene Roddenberry died, and Paramount announced Deep Space Nine - which so many fans said would fail, because Gene hadn't had a hand in creating it.
Star Trek (and I may be wrong here, I don't follow it) is a MUUUUCH more broad palate than Pern. Pern has boundaries, it has rules, it has things that you just CAN'T do. Which Todd has done anyway.

Quote:
I approached Dragon's Kin and Dragonsblood with an open mind, and enjoyed both. Dragonsblood fit very well in with what Anne has created. It was clever. It was not the "bad" "awful" book that some people claimed it to be, quite the reverse I thought. It was different though, but then it would be - Anne didn't write it. The only real problem with Dragonsblood (aside from two inconsistencies) was the style of writing - but that's because I'm used to Anne's style. I will get used to Todd’s.
I approached them with more than an open mind, I was ENTHUSED about it. DK was alright... a few sticky points but not all that bad. But with DB I was harshly disappointed. Well, while I was reading it it was alright, (except for the end which was plain ridiculous) but after I finished it, all the MANY things that were wrong with it crashed down on me. It had alot of potential but it took WAY too many wrong turns. Not to mention dropping at least two storylines flat right in the middle of the book.

Quote:
I will not restrict my enjoyment of Pern to a narrow vision of it, or even a narrow version. Anne's vision (and version) has always been good enough for me, and very acceptable. Pern has grown and changed - which is what I love about the series. It isn't static. If Anne feels that Todd shares her vision of Pern, then that's good enough for me. It's her world after all, she knows it better then any of us can ever hope to.
Yes, ANNE may know it better than all of us, but Todd sure as heck doesn't.

Quote:
This business of thread eating: Pern is fiction. It's not real. It is science fiction (a dictonary definition of science-fiction). It is not meant to conform to real universe physics or facts, and nore does it have to. It is not meant to be scientifically accurate. It is not real. Pern does not exist, except in the imagination and writings of Anne and Todd. The very act of reading a sci-fi or fantasy book means you are suspending real world beliefs to enter and explore this fictional/fantasy world that has been created in someone’s imagination. Wher, fire-lizards and grubs being able to eat thread is no less fantastical then dragons being able to produce flame, or teleport, or move things with there minds - or even exist at all. The beauty of fiction (be it sci-fi or fantasy) is that you can do anything; it is not restrictive except by the boundaries of your own imagination.
Of course there are going to be far fetched ideas, things that don't exist, but it should at least SEEM within the realm of believability. Common sense shouldn't be left at the door even when reading outlandish sci-fi/fantasy.

Quote:
Why is a grub being able to eat thread more believable then a wher or fire-lizard being able to do so? We know from Dragonsdawn that Ted Tubbermen made use of part of Kitty's plan. What he created was a grub that eats thread and some large cats (that like attacking dragons, humans, and carry flu viruses - I'm not sure how that is supposed to help fight thread ). The question is what part of Kitty’s plan did he implement? Was it something to do with the cats, or the grubs? That however is another topic for debate - and I am in serious danger of being well off topic here
It's more believable because it doesn't contradict itself. Grubs seem to be completely impervious to Thread. They may have some chemical emission or special orientation in their genetic makeup that both repels and destroys Thread. Whatever, it's not explained. But ALL OTHER LIFE is vulnerable to it - as I mentioned, it makes absolutely no sense at all that their mouths can consume it, but the rest of their bodies can be harmed. If their mouths have some special coating that makes it impervious, why not the rest of their bodies? It just defies common sense and rationality.

And btw, the felines were engineered to hunt the larger tunnel-snakes, not defend against thread.

Quote:
I agree with Hans, I get very nervous when there isn't an inconsistency within a Pern novel - it's something I expect, and I never have a problem working something out - as the "Arguments" section on Rukbat3 shows. Although some just can't be resolved, and have to be lived with. It has never yet spoiled these books for me though, and I doubt it ever will.

PS: her full name is Kitti (or Kitty, depending on what edition you look at) Ping Yung (ref Dragonsdawn).
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Old Jan 27 2006, 04:38 AM   #26
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Errors don't bother me. I usually don't notice them at first, and when I read about them on the web, I'm like: ah yes, well it's an error. It's very hard to write a book already, and with books like those of Pern with overlapping storylines, a mistake can easily slip in.

Also: Science Fiction is fiction which still follows the rules of this universe. The Pern books don't really do that, so they're not really SF. They're more a merge of SF and fantasy.


But you do consider time travel to be possible? And you do consider teleporting to be possible as it is described on Pern?

Or that the grubs can eat thread? How would they be able to?

Maybe Wind Blossom found out how Tubberman did it with the grubs, and she implented the same trick on the whers.

Offcourse it is Todd's writing. If he will continue the series, he can atleast use his own writing style. And the person knowing the most of Pern, even agreed with it.
As I mentioned above, it doesn't necessarily have to be POSSIBLE, but it should at least seem convincing. And actually, I don't like Pern's version of Time Travel, that doesn't make any sense to me either.

But Windblossom couldn't have implemented Tubberman's grub project because the whers were engineered before the grubs. Unless she did some whacky testing afterwards, but it still doesn't make sense that if she knew of a way to make the whers/dragons threadproof, that she would use it with ALL of them on their WHOLE bodies rather than only whers and only in their mouths and throat.

As for Todd's writing, I actually liked his writing style, it wasn't bad. It wasn't the style in which it was written that bothered me, as EVERY writer has a different style, it was just the content.
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Old Jan 27 2006, 10:09 AM   #27
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Well, it seems the lines in the sand have been firmly drawn… Ok, well as long as everyone remembers that it’s just all personal opinion, that’s fine and dandy.

It would be very easy to reply to many of the above comments, and come up with counter-point after counter-point, but the end result will be the same – no one is going to change how they see Pern.

I will never accept sci-fi as being something so ridged that it has to be based on “real world” physics. Star Wars is sci-fi – just how much of that can be said to be based on real world physics? To me science-fiction, fantasy, speculative fiction, science fantasy, fiction and all the rest are what they are; labels we stick on something in order to place an absolute definition on it. As most of you know, I have a problem with that idea – in terms of Pern, as I don’t believe it can be defined in strict terms. It is what it is – a bloody good read (IMOO).

Reading any sci-fi/fantasy/spec-fi/sci-fan/whatever book is always going to be about getting away from reality for me. It’s escapism – on a pure level. I don’t require the books I read to hold up well under scientific scrutiny, or for the matter I don’t over analyse them. For me, doing any of that would spoil my enjoyment of the book.

Continuity is always welcome, and as most of us already know the Pern Saga has its fair share of errors and continuity problems. I’m enough of an anorak that I can spot them and list them – as I have done on my site. But I’m enough of a fan that I really don’t give that much of a brass monkey about them, or need to re-write the pages of the books. The errors that exist are genuine ones, that – let’s face it, have cropped up because Pern is anything but simple. 16 (soon to be 17) novels, 1 novella, and 11 short-stories is no small feat for a literary series, and I’m not surprised that there are errors and small continuity problems between the Pern stories. Anne has written more then just Pern, 50 plus books (not counting the co-authored ones), and numerous short-stories. Pern is a small part of her written gift to us.

As fans we all have the choice of what we read, and what we don’t read. I have not read all of Anne’s works, and I have not enjoyed all of Anne’s books. The majority, yes, I have enjoyed, and for the most part I own copies of her books that I like.

Pern has always held a special place in my heart – for many reason, all personal of course (and way to numerous to list here, and bore you with). There were only six novels when I started reading Pern, and I was hooked after I read the first. I suppose you could say I grew up reading them, and at that time there was no handy internet to discuss what I thought about them. I had to make do with the friend at school who introduced me to them. I am two decades older now (and the rest ), and I am still reading these books. I have spent a not small sum of money, on my not so small Pern collection. And I have enjoyed all of it completely, and it’s a journey I will gladly take again and again.

I can respect that some people have problems with all the changes that have taken place within the Pern books, and the many changes of direction that have happened. If they choose not to read all the books, that’s ok. It’s there choice at the end of the day. If some of them choose to “exclude” books from what they consider to be “cannon” for Pern, that too is ok. At the end of the day it is there personal choice. But there personal choice should not dictate how the rest of us see Pern, or even talk about it.

I was truly gob-smacked to see someone state; “taking information from Dragonsblood and using it as cannon is a risky business…” – I can’t actually see what the risk is – unless there is a Pern-fan based mafia that I need to be worried about . I know, and I have encountered, some very die-hard Pern-Fanatics (and I use “fanatic” rather then “fan” with good reason), which is one of the reasons I shy away from forums and news-groups. It says a lot that I am here on MOM, and that I do take part, rather then just lurk, but then Cheryl was very persuasive (and right of course).

It’s ok to hold strong personal views and personal opinions, but it’s dangerous to forget that they are just that - personal opinions and personal views. The world would be a very boring and dull place if we all held the same opinion and thought the same way. We must never, ever, forget to treat each other with respect, and it can be easy to lose sight of that sometimes. A good debate is one thing, but this has crossed a line – and I played a not so small part in that. For that I am truly sorry to you all.

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Old Jan 27 2006, 10:14 AM   #28
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It annoys me to a degree. Inconsistencies are vexing, too.
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Old Jan 27 2006, 10:41 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayru
It’s ok to hold strong personal views and personal opinions, but it’s dangerous to forget that they are just that - personal opinions and personal views. The world would be a very boring and dull place if we all held the same opinion and thought the same way. We must never, ever, forget to treat each other with respect, and it can be easy to lose sight of that sometimes. A good debate is one thing, but this has crossed a line – and I played a not so small part in that. For that I am truly sorry to you all.
Hello! I'm sure you've all been waiting avidly for my return ROFL Just kidding.

Did I cross a line? Was I disrespectful to you, Jayru, or to anybody else? Because if you feel that I did then I apologise. As far as I was concerned, we were/are having a darn good debate! It's actually really good to discuss and debate things without getting into childish insults or devolving into personal territory.

I was/am enjoying this whole thing and it's really rather good that we seem so diammetrically opposed on the issues we have brought up - agreeing to disagree is no small thing for somebody to do. Maybe we should have moved into a brand new Thread (which you could eat and I could flame ROFL) ...... ah well, no matter now.

But thank you, Jayru (and the others who helped us hijack this Thread LOL), for a really good discussion!!!!!! And I look forward to chatting to you again soon!
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Old Jan 27 2006, 03:23 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff snip & editted for clairity
Ok, there's too much to quote, so I'll just say it here. Neither Firelizards, nor whers can eat thread. I don't see how Todd could possibly think that's concievable. The ONLY way they could do it is if they were engineered in the same manner as the grubs, which I doubt. And as has been mentioned, if they could eat it, using flame would be redundant. We have NEVER seen a dragon eating thread.
One thing you're not considering is that perhaps NOT ALL the stuff that falls is dangerous--and that Fire-lizards, and perhaps whers, may have knowledge (instinctive or otherwise) to determine which is safe.

But for the dragons (which Ping sacrificed long-term memory for boosting the short-term intellect) and of course, people (who have hard times telling people of different races within our own species apart, much less distinguishing the dangerous from non-leathal guts of an alien organism) just flame it all and be done with it.

Since the Thread produces an enzyme that desolves and digests organic material, grubs would have to produce a counter-enzyme to neutralize it.
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Old Jan 27 2006, 04:01 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayru
It’s ok to hold strong personal views and personal opinions, but it’s dangerous to forget that they are just that - personal opinions and personal views. The world would be a very boring and dull place if we all held the same opinion and thought the same way. We must never, ever, forget to treat each other with respect, and it can be easy to lose sight of that sometimes. A good debate is one thing, but this has crossed a line – and I played a not so small part in that. For that I am truly sorry to you all.
I fully understand that, and I agree with you. I don't think anyone here thinks that they have the final say in what IS the truth on any topic like this. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I'm not saying you SHOULDN'T consider DB as cannon or anything else, I'm just saying that personally, I am strongly opposed to it. But I hope this isn't the end of it, I really enjoy discussions like this
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Old Jan 27 2006, 04:05 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuu
One thing you're not considering is that perhaps NOT ALL the stuff that falls is dangerous--and that Fire-lizards, and perhaps whers, may have knowledge (instinctive or otherwise) to determine which is safe.

But for the dragons (which Ping sacrificed long-term memory for boosting the short-term intellect) and of course, people (who have hard times telling people of different races within our own species apart, much less distinguishing the dangerous from non-leathal guts of an alien organism) just flame it all and be done with it.

Since the Thread produces an enzyme that desolves and digests organic material, grubs would have to produce a counter-enzyme to neutralize it.
That's could be true, but what would be the point of eating the harmless stuff if it's not going to do anything? They need to get rid of the dangerous ones... and it's said that whers flew a whole Fall, so it would seem as if they ate it all... and wouldn't they get rather full with all of that Thread?
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Old Jan 27 2006, 04:10 PM   #33
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That's could be true, but what would be the point of eating the harmless stuff if it's not going to do anything? They need to get rid of the dangerous ones... and it's said that whers flew a whole Fall, so it would seem as if they ate it all... and wouldn't they get rather full with all of that Thread?
depends on how much boost of energy that the natives get vs how much they have to invest digesting it :shrug:

Like perhaps the difference between eating a ****load of candybars or a four-course meal while engaged in battle....
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Old Jan 28 2006, 05:10 AM   #34
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Hmm... I'm just going to stay open-minded about all this.
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Old Jan 28 2006, 08:04 AM   #35
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Maybe, if you wonder why he wrote that and what his explanation is for it, you could ask him? Send him an e-mail or ask him when/if you see him in real life? We can only speculate of the why's here, as many things in the Pern universe aren't completely explained.
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Old Jan 28 2006, 05:00 PM   #36
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Very true.
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Old Jan 29 2006, 04:50 PM   #37
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Hello, I'm a newb.

My only objection so far in reading the series is Anne's continual use of the word "adroitly".
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Old Jan 29 2006, 05:32 PM   #38
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Hmm, I haven't noticed that... but another one of her dominant descriptive words is "wry"
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Old Jan 29 2006, 11:28 PM   #39
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What does that mean?
Hi Roo!
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Old Jan 30 2006, 01:43 AM   #40
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I need a newbie:
who will do
to receive a poem?
I know, Roo!

G'day Roo!
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