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Old Feb 23 2005, 05:57 PM   #1
Talana Dragonrider
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Default Question about Skies of Pern

Before I read Skies I found a couple of sites with reviews or something that said 'will Tai stay out of between and get pregnant?' Then in Stefan's Alter to Anne McCaffrey I found that from the 2004 Dragon*Con she said 'Tai is pregnant.' So with the question from the review-Will Tai stay out of between and get pregnant?- I assumed she was talking about the Tai in the book. Then I actually read Skies and found nothing about Tai being pregnant. Was Anne talking about the Tai in Skies? Did I miss something in the book or maybe my book has a missing line or page or something? Help me here ? ?
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Old Feb 23 2005, 06:18 PM   #2
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

nope-nothing about Tai being pregnant in sop.
think its to do with a sequel.
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Old Feb 24 2005, 03:16 AM   #3
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Well, getting to be be pregnant could be the result of F'lessan (finally) convincing Tai that having sex can be nice and a result of love. Let's face it, as things stood it is altogether possible that Tai couldn't wait to get between after a mating flight from Zaranth as she will have disliked the expectancy of any result of the act she abhorred. Not any more, so it is reasonable that she will be pregnant.

Now, if that will be in a sequel to Skies of Pern I don't know and strangely enough I don't even now if I want to know. Todd won't write Ninth Pass Pern, so it would have to be yet another book by Anne that would add another person to the Bloodline F'lon, F'lar and F'lessan belong too, not a generation because F'lessan already has three kids
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Old Feb 25 2005, 09:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

Wouldn't be an Anne heroine if she wasn't either happily popping out bratlets or pining to be so. (Why is Moreta the only one with a healthy sense of self-worth not connected to her reproductive tract? At least with Nerilka it seems in-character, but everyone else? Oy.)

Sorry, I find the baby boom for 9th Pass females nauseating, along with the implication that women like Kylara are evil for not wanting them. Can't there be a female who doesn't do motherhood and isn't the least bit sorry about it? Wouldn't be surprised if Tai getting knocked up wasn't one of the plots intended for SoP that got cut and postponed until a sequel.
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Old Feb 26 2005, 03:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

In a society like Pern? I seriously doubt it. Women are supposed to want kids. If they don't, they probably at the very least feel guilty about not wanting them. Not that things are very much different in the West on Earth, women who don't want kids are constantly having to explain why they don't, and the majority sadly probably still thinks that there must be something wrong with a woman who doesn't want children. At least on Pern women in the Weyrs can hand over their kids to someone else to raise. On Pern (except in the Weyrs) and in most places on Earth women don't have control of their sexuality or access to contraceptives anyway, and in many places are married off without their consent, so whether or not they want kids they're going to have them, if they're fertile. If they're unlucky enough to be infertile, they can in many places be either repudiated, divorced or in extreme cases killed. I haven't heard of any woman on Pern being killed for infertility, but I wouldn't be surprised if such a woman found herself divorced or sharing her husband with concubines/wives before long.
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Old Feb 26 2005, 05:02 AM   #6
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

I dont find it nauseating.
think yourself into the situation.
Pern has more or less been ravaged by thread for 2500 years.
despite care there are going to be casualties-lots of casualties
then there are plagues that decimate the population, and i can guess thread casualties would rapidly increase at this time.
therefore the population is struggling to keep birth and death rates in line.
that would set the scene for women to be expected to have large families. look at the western world until mid-20th C, after WW1 there was a big pop drop because of
a) a large war that killed off a good chunk of young men, AND quite a few civilians
b) Spanish flu in 1919 that killed off alot more than the war!
You seem to find it wrong for women to want to be mothers Anareth?

Anyway regarding Tai, being a mother might give her more security-cos shes very insecure and more of a sense of family than just F'lessan. She seemed very close to her family before they went forth to colonise.
perhaps it'll be a very good plot device. F'lessan and Tai are pretty instrumental now, think what the abominators could do if there was a child around...

oh well there's my ha'penny's worth. I'm off to seek a good bunker-or hide behind my notes-theres enough of them!
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Old Feb 26 2005, 05:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

I've no problem with women who don't want kids; I do with those who start whining after it's too late, and go to whatever means they can to have one. If it's too late, it's just too late.

This doesn't mean I'm afraid of commitment either.
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Old Feb 27 2005, 01:18 PM   #8
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Anareth, if we were talking about a series set in modern day Los Angeles or New York City, I'd agree with you 100%. But this is Pern. Damn near medieval society. Women on Pern pretty much have to reproduce to keep up the population. By the Ninth Pass, it's more or less ingrained into every woman, "I must reproduce" - something which started at Landing and continues to "modern" Pern. Like it or not, it's a major duty of every woman on Pern - even though they don't raise their own and probably wouldn't want to. Not a pretty concept, but a real one.
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Old Feb 27 2005, 01:29 PM   #9
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

Wanting kids is a natural female urge. However, for a fighting green rider to get pregnant and carry the child to term druing a Pass is unlikely, as between will often prevent a foetus from developing. It would be more likely fot Tai to want a child, but not be able to have one because of her betweening. At least not until the end of the Pass.

Pern can not be described really as 'medieval'. the attitudes on Pern are much more Middle Ages/Early Modern (minus the religious aspects). During medieveal times, then women were chattels, property. On Pern, then are not seen as such. Especially in the Ninth Pass, then the attitudes are almost 'Modern' period.
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Old Feb 27 2005, 01:34 PM   #10
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

the early middle ages had more freedom than the renaissance though!
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Old Feb 27 2005, 02:43 PM   #11
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
the early middle ages had more freedom than the renaissance though!
Especially for men!
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Old Feb 27 2005, 02:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

i dunno how accurate Terry Jones' medieval lives is but it looks like women went from almost equal status to more subservient as it was decided it was not a good thing...
some of the things that happened if you listen to some of the sources make you kinda sorry for any man that ummm failed to perform!
you can probably see why someone snapped!
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Old Feb 27 2005, 05:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

I find women who are supposed to be the 'rebels' in a society like Pern's moping and whining about wanting kids to be wrong. Lessa should be thrilled to have missed out on it, especially since it's obviously physically a problem for her. The Weyrs as basically a means OUT of the miserable existance of never-ending motherhood--why almost all of Anne's heroines seem to pine for it is bizarre. The overriding tone is that any normal woman should want nothing more than to be a wife (weyrmate) and mother, and no matter what else they do they're unfulfilled if they don't do it. And, if a woman isn't the least interested in them, she's evil. How about a heroine, who like Kylara is relieved at having between as an option? Moreta's the only one who seems to have a sensible attitude-she had them, she fostered them, she doesn't worry about them or bemoan not having been there for them. She doesn't need them, she has Orlith. The rest of the 'heorines' (Brekke in particular) seem like they might have happier being married off as a holder so they could manage the household and have a dozen or so little brats to look after. I don't see what the loss is--you have a dragon, you can if you want have a partner, or not, or several, and you don't need to go through the disgusting and dangerous process of childbirth in a pre-hospital society or have to deal with raising anything. What's the point of rising above a situation if you just want to go wallow in it again?
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Old Feb 27 2005, 06:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

The urge to reproduce is basic nature to living things. The ability to reproduce is one of the things that defines a living thing. Many women want more out of life than to be called a good leader or an excellent dragonrider or a brilliant musician. They want their genes to continue beyond their personal existence. I don't see that a person, male or female, wanting to reproduce is repugnant or disgusting in any way. From a personal standpoint, I still consider my daughter, who now has a daughter of her own, the finest achievement of my life.
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Old Feb 28 2005, 04:21 AM   #15
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

I agree that the women on Pern do seem a bit obsessed, and I don't see it a as just part of the regressed culture. As early as DDawn, before any Threadfalls or plagues or other nastiness, Sallah Telgar did everything she could to seduce Tarvi. Conversely, Avril Bitra didn't seem at all interested, and curiously enough was written as the villian.

It would fit the model very well indeed if Tai had a son with F'lessan, if the son resulted from a mating flight between Zaranth and Golanth (with a crippled wing no less), and if that son Impressed a bronze dragon of his own and became the next great Weyrleader. Kinda writes itself, doesn't it?

Oh, and green riders can carry to term; Mirrim gave birth to a son in DoP.
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Old Feb 28 2005, 04:38 AM   #16
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

Green riders can carry to term, yes, but not easily.

Mirrim had many, many miscarriages before carrying a pregnancy to term, and she only managed that because the dolphins spotted it early enough.
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Old Feb 28 2005, 04:57 AM   #17
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

whats the betting the dolphins tell Tai-she goes swimming with them alot.
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Old Feb 28 2005, 06:09 AM   #18
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

Well, Kylara did have five kids before figuring out just how long she needed to stay between to abort. And she left them to the Weyr to raise, like a responsible dragonrider should. Possibly one of the few responsible things she did in her life, and it just happened to match her personal inclination.

I too wish that more women were written as feeling like Moreta did about children.
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Old Feb 28 2005, 06:54 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisG
<snip>It would fit the model very well indeed if Tai had a son with F'lessan, if the son resulted from a mating flight between Zaranth and Golanth (with a crippled wing no less), and if that son Impressed a bronze dragon of his own and became the next great Weyrleader. Kinda writes itself, doesn't it?

Oh, and green riders can carry to term; Mirrim gave birth to a son in DoP.
Wrong Chris! Their child should be either a girl who Impresses a green or a boy who accidentally Impresses a bronze on his eleventh Nameday...



I don't think it was disputed that green riders can carry to term. Mirrim only gave birth to a live child after several miscarriages (re Dolphins of Pern) because it is hard for Pernese to know they are pregnant in the first weeks and (according to RSR/DE) that is when the embryo is damaged by going between, resulting in spontaneous abortion.
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Old Feb 28 2005, 07:30 AM   #20
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In Ninth Pass Pern, which moved from Medieval to quasi-modern in just a few decades, it would seem natural for the women of Pern to want to have children and a career. And with the increase in the different Crafts available, it doesn't have to be just as a Dragonrider in a Weyr. So, with precautions early in the pregnacy, a Greenrider or a Queenrider can have children (and,as has been said here already, leave them to the weyrfolk to raise,as is normal in a weyr).
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Old Feb 28 2005, 05:37 PM   #21
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat69La


In Ninth Pass Pern, which moved from Medieval to quasi-modern in just a few decades, it would seem natural for the women of Pern to want to have children and a career. And with the increase in the different Crafts available, it doesn't have to be just as a Dragonrider in a Weyr. So, with precautions early in the pregnacy, a Greenrider or a Queenrider can have children (and,as has been said here already, leave them to the weyrfolk to raise,as is normal in a weyr).
i agree. even if they didn't raise thier kids, some dragonriders, (see, not all, just some,) were proud of having kids, and the kids themselves. its not a crime. even though F'lessan thinks of his parents as his weyrleaders first, parents second, he still admires them, and not just as leaders, i think.
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Old Feb 28 2005, 06:32 PM   #22
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth
I find women who are supposed to be the 'rebels' in a society like Pern's moping and whining about wanting kids to be wrong. Lessa should be thrilled to have missed out on it, especially since it's obviously physically a problem for her. The Weyrs as basically a means OUT of the miserable existance of never-ending motherhood--why almost all of Anne's heroines seem to pine for it is bizarre. The overriding tone is that any normal woman should want nothing more than to be a wife (weyrmate) and mother, and no matter what else they do they're unfulfilled if they don't do it. And, if a woman isn't the least interested in them, she's evil. How about a heroine, who like Kylara is relieved at having between as an option? Moreta's the only one who seems to have a sensible attitude-she had them, she fostered them, she doesn't worry about them or bemoan not having been there for them. She doesn't need them, she has Orlith. The rest of the 'heorines' (Brekke in particular) seem like they might have happier being married off as a holder so they could manage the household and have a dozen or so little brats to look after. I don't see what the loss is--you have a dragon, you can if you want have a partner, or not, or several, and you don't need to go through the disgusting and dangerous process of childbirth in a pre-hospital society or have to deal with raising anything. What's the point of rising above a situation if you just want to go wallow in it again?
But that could simply be part of the fickleness of being female

Or just part of human nature - wanting what they can't have have (especially in the case of Lessa)
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Old Mar 1 2005, 12:59 PM   #23
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

and complaining about the villains being unmaternal. On my way back from lectures I was thinking, wouldn't a maternal person, loving to their children, kind to animals, apparantly totally normal be a more scary, faar more unsettling villianess...

I agree with the fickleness C_ris EVERYONE is fickle.
If Lessa had been perfectly able to give birth she probably wouldn't have wanted more than F'lessan.
We're all like that.
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Old Mar 3 2005, 09:19 PM   #24
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Default Re: Question about Skies of Pern

Hitler loved dogs and children. Loving children has very little to do with whether or not someone's a good person. Anne, however, when it comes to female characters, basically equates desire for active motherhood with being a good person. There are perfectly nice people, usually those with good sense about their own abilities and desires, who don't like or want children. Being good meaning desiring to be a mother is a very outmoded idea, right up there with feminine complaints and women's foods versus men's foods.
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