A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum  

Go Back   A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum > The Anne McCaffrey Collection > Dragonriders of Pern > Science of Pern

Science of Pern This forum is for Edith's Science of Pern project. Please keep each post to one subject, and stay on topic; off topic posts may be moved or deleted. Guests may post in this forum (subject to change).

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Dec 10 2007, 11:32 AM   #1
GHarris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Gender: M
Fan of: The White Dragon
Now Reading: Skies of Pern
Default Wansor's equations

When they found some of the instruments (near viewing/far viewing) and the model of the solar system, did they also find equations for gravity and orbits?

It just seems like PERN would not have kept Calculus, which is what is really needed to do the equations that would be precise enough to calculate threadfall.

Or did Wandsor just re-invent calculus in the intervening years between.

GH
GHarris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 10 2007, 03:20 PM   #2
granath
Talent
Tower Prime
 
granath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Proud Mom!
Gender: F
Fan of: Afra Lyon
Now Reading: Faye Upton: Dragonchoice 3
Default Re: Wandsor's equations

I'm not sure...

However, since calculus is essential to Newton's theory of gravitation, which Wansor effectively did reinvent, they must have kept it.

Some of the earliest principles of calculus, such as calculating the area of an object, can be traced back to at least 1800 BC, so it's not impossible for them to have retained some capability in the subject. See the wikipedia entry for more info on calculus.
__________________
Decaf coffee is an oxymoron. Instant coffee is an abomination. Give me the real thing and nobody gets hurt.
"Do. Or do not. There is no try" -- Yoda
VP of the Afra Lyon fan club!
granath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 10 2007, 03:30 PM   #3
edith
Dragonrider


Weyrwoman
 
edith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
Default Re: Wandsor's equations

calculus is useful for other stuff too. I can imagine that it was used in one form or another by the Smithcraft
edith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 11 2007, 04:07 PM   #4
Gidget2
Brainship
Courier
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
Default Re: Wandsor's equations

What was Wansor's speciality before he became a Starsmith? I know he was part of the Smith Hall, but in what capacity had he specialised before AIVAS and the like plopped into his lap?

I would assume that he was well-versed in algebraic methods and equations before that time.
Gidget2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 11 2007, 04:17 PM   #5
edith
Dragonrider


Weyrwoman
 
edith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
Default Re: Wandsor's equations

A glass smith.

Glasses are odd things. I studied them a little this year and equations and things are quite important . They are a particular state of matter.
edith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 11 2007, 04:20 PM   #6
Gidget2
Brainship
Courier
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
Default Re: Wandsor's equations

Oooooh yes. Glass - is it a solid or a liquid??? As far as I can tell it's neither and both! LOL

But ..... yes ..... so Wansor would be working quite happily in the glasscraft with his equations. And it's all a matter of numbers, whatever it is you're working out, isn't it? As women say all the time, it's what you do with it that counts .....
Gidget2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 11 2007, 04:22 PM   #7
edith
Dragonrider


Weyrwoman
 
edith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
Default Re: Wandsor's equations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidget2 View Post
Oooooh yes. Glass - is it a solid or a liquid??? As far as I can tell it's neither and both! LOL

But ..... yes ..... so Wansor would be working quite happily in the glasscraft with his equations. And it's all a matter of numbers, whatever it is you're working out, isn't it? As women say all the time, it's what you do with it that counts .....
It's its own state. You get liquid, super-cooled liquid glass, rather than a solid-liquid phase change.
edith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12 2007, 04:35 AM   #8
Gidget2
Brainship
Courier
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
Default Re: Wandsor's equations

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith View Post
It's its own state. You get liquid, super-cooled liquid glass, rather than a solid-liquid phase change.
I once spent an entire morning at my old job researching glass properties after one of the guys I worked with came in after doing a pub quiz all full of beans and trivia!

Yup, it was the same job where I happily Wikipedia-surfed through most of my days!

Oddly enough, I don't have it now ................. (just kidding, it was only a temp job that was never going to be a permanent one).
Gidget2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12 2007, 05:19 AM   #9
edith
Dragonrider


Weyrwoman
 
edith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
Default Re: Wandsor's equations

I've got an exam on it in just over a month.
edith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12 2007, 12:12 PM   #10
StevenB
Bitsmith/Starsmith,
Master Sneak
 
StevenB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Scotland
Gender: M
Fan of: Skies of Pern: what else?
Now Reading: My computer screen
Default Re: Wandsor's equations

You need quite a few equations to predict how to hit a tennis ball, yet a lot of people manage it without thinking. So I don't think calculus is essential for predicting something - it's just essential for making the prediction numerically accurate. (An interesting experiment would be to judge how far to fill a cylindrical glass of water so it can exactly fill a spherical vase - can your brain do the rough calculation by gut feeling?)

Edith, is your exam on calculus or on glass? Either way good luck!
__________________
Steven
StevenB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12 2007, 01:45 PM   #11
edith
Dragonrider


Weyrwoman
 
edith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
Default Re: Wansor's equations

It's advanced materials- half of which is glass and polymers, the other half is on SAXS and NMR techniques.

Don't mention hitting a tennis ball. I did a project on that in my second year!

I suppose it's the difference between Norist, Morrilton and Wansor. Norist is a craftsman, just using eye and old recipes, Morrilton's an experimenter/engineer, using theoretical knowledge to improve his glass, while Wansor's an experimenter/theoretician. He can make experiments but he also wants to know why. He's the one who needs to know the equations on how to hit the tennis ball .
edith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12 2007, 05:41 PM   #12
P'ter
Crafter

Craftmaster
 
P'ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wolverhampton
Gender: M
Fan of: Favorite?
Now Reading: avidly
Default Re: Wansor's equations

I've seen a piece of window glass approx 250 years old and the top is about two millemetres thinner than the bottom where it's slumped under gravity.
__________________
"Truth is stranger than fiction: fiction has to make sense." Leo Rosten.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
C. S. Lewis

"I find television very educational. Whenever somebody switches it on I go in the other room and read a book." (attributed to Groucho Marx)

The Pedants are revolting! (against bad grammar)
P'ter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12 2007, 06:10 PM   #13
edith
Dragonrider


Weyrwoman
 
edith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
Default Re: Wansor's equations

Are you sure that it wasn't just the manufacturing process?
edith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 13 2007, 08:23 AM   #14
P'ter
Crafter

Craftmaster
 
P'ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wolverhampton
Gender: M
Fan of: Favorite?
Now Reading: avidly
Default Re: Wansor's equations

positive
__________________
"Truth is stranger than fiction: fiction has to make sense." Leo Rosten.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
C. S. Lewis

"I find television very educational. Whenever somebody switches it on I go in the other room and read a book." (attributed to Groucho Marx)

The Pedants are revolting! (against bad grammar)
P'ter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 13 2007, 09:31 AM   #15
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: Wansor's equations

*cough*

[Unless P'ter was being sarcastic... please? 'Cos you certainly don't look 250 years old!]
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 13 2007, 02:32 PM   #16
Gidget2
Brainship
Courier
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
Default Re: Wansor's equations

Oooooh Kath! Way to put the .... wherry amongst the ..... avians there!!!

(And it would seem that my ex-colleague should have got the pub quiz question correct after all!!)
Gidget2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 13 2007, 04:52 PM   #17
P'ter
Crafter

Craftmaster
 
P'ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wolverhampton
Gender: M
Fan of: Favorite?
Now Reading: avidly
Default Re: Wansor's equations

The pane concerned was one of quite a few in The Old Building at school. I noticed a difference in diffraction between the top and bottom and investigated.

I too have researched glass (well --- historical glass manufacturing and blowing techniques) for a book on restoration of old windows.

I also had to research old paint manufacturing methods and timber curing.
__________________
"Truth is stranger than fiction: fiction has to make sense." Leo Rosten.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
C. S. Lewis

"I find television very educational. Whenever somebody switches it on I go in the other room and read a book." (attributed to Groucho Marx)

The Pedants are revolting! (against bad grammar)
P'ter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 13 2007, 05:33 PM   #18
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: Wansor's equations

This is interesting.

*edit*

Oooh, so's this.
Quote:
>In article <199310050310.AA25843@shark.mel.dit.csiro.au>, I write:
>>I will try to get hold of the full paper and relate its findings.

And indeed I have. Some interesting points arise in the article "Antique windowpanes and the flow of supercooled liquids" by Robert C. Plumb (Worcester Polytech. Inst.)in the Journal of Chemical Education, 66(12), 994-6, 1989.

1)Robert Brill of the Corning Museum has records of the stories of window panes 'flowing' over the years, dating back as far as high school chemistry class in 1947.

2)The glassy state resembles a liquid in having short-range [molecular] order without long-range order ,but differs in that the entire network is rigid, whereas in the liquid state enough energy is available to break and reform bonds continuously.

3)The temperature at which a rigid glass becomes a supercooled liquid is called the glass transition temperature, Tg. For window glass, Tg (measured) is 550 degrees C. For the limiting case of infinite time the thermodynamically calculated ideal glass transition state Tg(0) for window glass is 270 degrees C. For Pyrex the values are 550 and 350 deg., respectively. [This alone should be enough to put to rest any argument for the liquid properties of glass at room temperature (which rarely gets above 50 degrees C).]

4)If a rod of glass is twisted it will return to its original shape. If it is twisted and held for a period it will retain its twisted shape BUT will gradually return to its original zero-twist state over time. This 'delayed elastic recovery effect' is explained in the paper but is too technical to go into here. Suffice to say, this experiment debunks any 'deformation of glass under pressure = glass flows' type experiments.

5)Those who are convinced that glass flows like a viscous liquid under its own weight sometimes cite the Corning Glass Co. instructions printed on boxes of tubing, "Lay flat, do not stand on end". According to R. Lemker (Operations Manager, Fallbrook Plant, Corning Glass, Corning, NY) the instructions are to avoid damage to the ends of the tubing, not to keep it from sagging.

6)The paper then goes into a long discussion of how glass windows were manufactured in the 1800's (the Crown glass process) and essentially comes to the conclusion (already offered in AFU) that antique window panes are thicker at the bottom because of variations in the thickness of the glass (which at the time were less important than other defects such as blisters, dust, lines, curves and scratches) produced during manufacture. The author surmises that glaziers would tend to put the thick end of the glass at the bottom for stability.
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 13 2007, 05:34 PM   #19
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: Wansor's equations

Oh, and to whoever changed the thread title to "Wansor" instead of "Wandsor" -

THANK YOU!!!
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 13 2007, 05:37 PM   #20
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: Wansor's equations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidget2 View Post
Oooooh Kath! Way to put the .... wherry amongst the ..... avians there!!!
Ah, I didn't mean it quite like that! Just that one set of measurements is never enough to extrapolate 250 years backwards...
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8 2008, 12:32 AM   #21
Ryuu
Evil Gold Fiend Dragon
 
Ryuu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Back in the USSA
Gender: M
Default Re: Wansor's equations

Couldn't an extrapolation be done about glass if you applied the same experiment to say--honey?

Honey, like glass, is a rigid liquid in a super-cooled state when you refridgerate it.
Ryuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8 2008, 06:30 AM   #22
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: Wansor's equations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuu View Post
Couldn't an extrapolation be done about glass if you applied the same experiment to say--honey?

Honey, like glass, is a rigid liquid in a super-cooled state when you refridgerate it.
Yes, but honey isn't glass. Except maybe in the witch's house in Hansel and Gretel...
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8 2008, 05:57 PM   #23
P'ter
Crafter

Craftmaster
 
P'ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wolverhampton
Gender: M
Fan of: Favorite?
Now Reading: avidly
Default Re: Wansor's equations

To continue the diversion.

Honey is a simple sugar (mellose) and they do USE sugar to make glazing for stuntpersons to fall through.
__________________
"Truth is stranger than fiction: fiction has to make sense." Leo Rosten.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
C. S. Lewis

"I find television very educational. Whenever somebody switches it on I go in the other room and read a book." (attributed to Groucho Marx)

The Pedants are revolting! (against bad grammar)

Last edited by P'ter; Jan 9 2008 at 08:51 AM.
P'ter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8 2008, 06:28 PM   #24
edith
Dragonrider


Weyrwoman
 
edith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
Default Re: Wansor's equations

The physical properties are the thing here. Thin ice looks a bit like glass but it's crystalline. Glasses are their own state of matter.
edith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 16 2011, 04:43 AM   #25
GinnyStar
Dolphineer
Craftmaster
 
GinnyStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wausau, WI USA, Central Standard Time
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, other SF works
Now Reading: Dragonback Bargain
Default Re: Wansor's equations

Well I'm unsure on this one, but in Red Star Rising/Dragonseye, they had higher math, also had, sextons, and Jemmy re-discovery the 'slide ruler' and a few others bit.

Also if you miss do a glass for say near viewing/far viewing, you are going to be off. I had a pair of safty glasses made in my old scrip, they forgot something, dang if I can think of it now, but we had to take back, also grind and making fine, is going to hard to do. I think Master Wansor's was able to 'drill' other on there use.
__________________
Lover s s, s and friends
Lover of and beads,
http://www.change.org/profiles/GinnyStar
Dragoncave GinnyStar2
Jellied Dragons
Lair of Dragons
http://dragcave.net/user/GinnyStar2
Thanks! Others: None at this time
WIP http://archiveofourown.org/works/252259
http://www.daisy.org/learning-difficulties
GinnyStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

A Meeting of Minds forum owned by Cheryl B. Miller.
All references to worlds and characters based on Anne McCaffrey’s fiction are copyright © Anne McCaffrey 1967-2008, all rights reserved, and used by permission of the author.