Timing Paradox Question

[elvenart]

OK , I recently reread Dragonflight, and was suddenly aware of a time paradox problem.http://forums.srellim.org/images/smi...lies/irked.gif The thing is, F'lar gave instructions to watch the weather and watch for the signs of thread's return to Pern. Now, when F'nor walks in and dusts the black dust of thread off, setting off F'lar, he says that he saw only the black dust on the wind during his sweep riding. F'lar immediately rouses the weyr, and gives the direction to go BETWEEN TIME to the start of the fall to fight. My question now arises .......: WHY did F'nor not see the wings flaming since he was at the SAME coordinates at the SAME time as the rest of the weyr's fighting? He only sees the results - blackdust (or charred thread).

[Hans]

Good observation!

How about his as a reason/explanation:

Important is that the black dust isn't charred Thread but frozen Thread, made harmless by the low temperature.
F'lar couldn't be 100% sure if all Thread that had fallen was made harmless and thus went between times to the beginning of the Fall. The end of the Fall obviously had been witnessed by F'nort and it was sure it was harmless. The beginning (earlier half, whatever) was fought (or observed?) by Benden dragonriders.

I am making this up of course, let's see if people think it is enough of an explanation

[GinnyStar]

Hmm Was not F'nor was flying weather watch over High Reaches area of Pern.

He did report dust storm in that area of Pern.

Most of my book are half-packed for the move at the end of this month, same complex different apartment!

[Joz]

I'm writing this without checking, but the fall F'lar is worried about is not the High Reaches one - that is over and the 'crack dust' is the end result. BUT the fact that F'lar realises that is was a fall, means the pass has started and therefore was a fall happening as they spoke down over Nerat. So no paradox, as they didn't have to return to High Reaches at all.

[Hans]

Hmm, that sounds true Joz... That the black dust was mainly the reason to go fight the next Fall, knowing that it would be live if the temperature was higher.

Will need to check the text... (at work now)

[Emeraldrose]

Page 14o of DelRay edition (Paperback Dragonriders of Pern)

Waste Time? That's it. Go between times? Lessa gasped. Between times!
F'nor was totally confused....
The Threads started falling at dawn in Nerat....
Right now rouse the Weyr... if Threads are falling...were falling ....at Nerat at dawn,they'll be falling on Keroon and Ista right now

It was during this fall that Cygan died. F'lar began to doubt his ability to save Pern with one Weyr due to the number of injuries etc...

[elvenart]

I stand corrected. He was flying weather watch in Tillek (page 192). They went back in time to the beginning of the fall in Nerat(page 195), covering through Ista and Keroon and Igen. I missed that bit and then embarrassed myself with this post. Sorry

[Danel]

Time Paradox's are fun animals so to speak, and are usually a Paradox because some action that took place in the past, effected the present so the event that caused the person to go back in the past, does not.

Anne nicely avoided these causality violations in her books, which surprised me. I always wondered because of that if she had a good understanding of General Relativity.

For example, Jaxom's rescue of the egg. There was no causality violation because while the egg was returned to the present, no action was take to stop or alter the original theft.

However if Jaxom had gone back in time and told F'lar that the egg would be stolen in 5 minutes, and F'lar moved the egg so it was guarded... The the egg would of not been stolen, and therefore the event that caused Jaxom to go back in time to warn him, never happened. Leading to there being no reason to go back. But if he doesn't go back, then the egg still gets stolen!

Classic Causality Violation (Paradox) there.

Anne seemed to cover this by there always being clue's left in the past by a time travel event, that would lead to the traveler to making that very same time trip. Lessa's ride. The engine explosions before each 400 turn interval, etc etc etc.

The time trips in that way are just a part of the overall space/time continuum.

[Blue Rider 16]

The way I understand it in general sci-fi time travel stories, is that there are two general types of time travel. There's the type where events can be changed (such as in Star Trek time travel), and then there's the type where events have to happen a certain way-generally referred to as a pre-destination paradox. Dragonriders of Pern seems to only use the pre-destination paradox, where Star Trek uses both, and other series also use various methods. The one thing that didn't seem quite right to me was in Skies of Pern, when F'lar seemed to imply that this was possible--which totally contradicted everything that had been previously established with Pernese time travel. Unless I'm missing something....

[ghost8772]

The one forward trip, unescorted was the time trip I was least appreciative of. Anne's predestined type time traveling was kinda cool. You couldn't change the past because somebody had already witnessed the events from the future. It also left out most of the time travel issues people bring up.

[Emeraldrose]

The one forward trip, unescorted was the time trip I was least appreciative of.

By this I assume you mean the trip to the future by Jaxom to confirm that thread ends? (which I am not sure is helpful because it would end by then anyway would it not? Or do I have the time frame wrong? (book in other room ) I have never quite understood that trip either
Moreta went to the future with Alessan (along with his sister and the bronze rider whose name begins with B ) but felt odd (imo because she was dead in the future)....

[Danel]

I always had a problem with the Time Trips to the future myself. Mainly the problem there, is that the future is not pre-determined. So if your were to travel forward in time, then you either, 1. Experince only one of many different possible futures, which may not be the future that actually will happen. or 2. Experince all possible futures at the same time and wind up succumbing to sensory overload, or insanity. Or both.

[Ryuu]

Originally Posted by Emeraldrose

By this I assume you mean the trip to the future by Jaxom to confirm that thread ends? (which I am not sure is helpful because it would end by then anyway would it not? Or do I have the time frame wrong? (book in other room ) I have never quite understood that trip either
Moreta went to the future with Alessan (along with his sister and the bronze rider whose name begins with B ) but felt odd (imo because she was dead in the future)....

IIRC, with Moreta, it felt odd for her in that she didn't suffer the same disorientation the other riders said they were experiencing or that she had experienced with previous timings.

I thought Jaxom did so because he needed to be convinced over the risk Aivas was asking of him to direct the other ships' engines into the past.

[Brenda]

Jaxom was able to call up a diagram of an altered orbit for the Red Star fifty years after the explosion was to take place: proof that that mission would succeed.

I can see future travel working only in tightly controlled situations, such as being able to make sure no one would be in the Yokohoma that day.


Although when it comes to lightning storms, all bets are off...

[Blue Rider 16]

Yes, it seemed to me that trips to the future only worked if you've got guarantee that you're not going to be there--which, should be pretty easy, if you can remember when you went. Also, if you've got a reliable timemark, such as a clock. While Skies of Pern, did have some inconsistenices--such as ages and times since events took place---I did think during the Weyr Council scene, there was a clever insertion about Jaxom's journey forward: '"By Aivas, there is absoloutely no possibility of that, G'narish," Lytol replied in vigorous protest. "I have made an exhaustive study of the physics and mathematics of that remarkable effort. Aivas was a superb astrophysicist. He was especially thorough in the matter of possible perturbations and every single equation of effect was faultlessly accurate. Waiting until the planet was far enough from Pern to assure that displacements would be negligible was one of the main reasons we had to delay the blasts, to achieve the maximum effect."
Adruptly Jaxom started to choke, a reflex that had him sputtering until Sharra thumped him on the back and the spasm subsided.'
(pg 340, The Skies of Pern American edition)

[ghost8772]

Considering a dragon goes between on the rider's say so. The infinite possibility of the future could be limited by the rider's need. A dragon takes his/her rider to the required future, if it doesn't exist, then the dragon doesn't come out of between. That was F'lar's fear of sending a dragon into the future more than meeting himself coming. I forgot about the forward jump in Moreta. I can think of several instances of timing to the "future" Lessa overshot on the last jump. Jaxom jumped forward past where he left to ensure he didn't come back on himself when searching for D'ram, again when he went forward to confirm Aivas' theory, and likely came back with a gap to ensure he didn't meet himself coming there also.

[Brenda]

Oh, I forgot about the Moreta one, too!

[Anareth]

IIRC, Moreta felt light-headed and slightly disconnected, while we don't know if B'lerion and his dragon (Nabeth?) felt unusual, or if Oklina (who was not a dragonrider in her own time but would have been a Weyrling at the point they jumped to) noticed anything unusual. I agree that Moreta's particular disorientation is not only because she jumped forward without her own dragon, but that she and Orlith were both dead in the future Pern.

The way they made sure of it is they didn't time to a conditional future--they timed based on celestial navigation and on the condition of the plants. Lessa lead the Weyrs forward by the Red Star, then missed when a minor change of degree wouldn't matter (3 days is not seriously going to alter its position.) And Jaxom did what Marty McFly was SUPPOSED to do in the first Back to the Future--arrive either JUST as he leaves or the instant after, to avoid meeting himself or creating two Jaxoms in one time.

[Blue Rider 16]

I thought Jaxom used a clock, on the Yokohama bridge, to go fifty Turns into the future. Or are you talking about another jump?

[Brenda]

Yes, he visualized the clock fifty Turns later, and then when he returned he added a minute to the time when he had left.

[ghost8772]

Yes, but in the "infinite possibilities" of the future, there could be a future where there was no Yokohama, or where the future Yokohama showed no change of the red star's path. The idea is that Robinton's conjecture to F'lar about projecting a future and traveling to it. F'lar shot it down, but the possibility of there being many futures, and the dragon finding it given the image of the rider could make for some interesting story divergence..... Yoko falling out of orbit twenty years after Aivas left..... little things. No its not canon, its speculation, and an interesting thought process. However F'lar's dismissal of traveling into the future to me basically entails a dragon and rider not being gone from Pern and existence longer than it took to cough thrice. Lessa was gone for days, which meant she arrived back in the future at least subjectively to her, the same with Jaxom's two trips. Time travel is much too slippery of a topic for anybody to know. Anne's version makes sense, what happened happened, if someone went back in time, they were part of what happened when it happened. History is unable to be changed. The concept of going back and changing things, is difficult in the least. First off would be the paradox of changing something that you felt strongly enough to go back in time to change. If you succeeded in changing it, then either you were immune to the effects, causing you to remember a past that never occurred, or you were not immune to the effects, at which point you never had the desire to travel back in time, so you didn't go back, so the past wasn't changed. The other idea of course is you do affect a change, which causes a time line spur to break off, you are still a member of the original time line, but any further travel down the line is on the spur. As I said, the concept is slippery, if any time travelers out there want to enlighten, they are free to do so.

[Emeraldrose]

Anne's version makes sense, what happened happened, if someone went back in time, they were part of what happened when it happened. History is unable to be changed.

This is also the type of time travel used in the Harry Potter books (specifically Prisoner of Azkaban) via use of Time Turners by JK Rowling. She did mention the dangers of time travel and the emphasis on NOT BEING SEEN.
The multiple possibilities of futures etc was seen in Star Trek and they eventually created a Prime Directive against it (see Voyager)

[ghost8772]

Originally Posted by Emeraldrose

This is also the type of time travel used in the Harry Potter books (specifically Prisoner of Azkaban) via use of Time Turners by JK Rowling. She did mention the dangers of time travel and the emphasis on NOT BEING SEEN.
The multiple possibilities of futures etc was seen in Star Trek and they eventually created a Prime Directive against it (see Voyager)

Yep, read Rowling's opinion on time travel, though it was similar to Anne's view. Namely that someone had to go back in time to affect the changes that they hadn't made on their first run through a time sequence.