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Old Apr 28 2005, 11:44 AM   #1
Kater
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Default Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

After reading some of the threads and posts I was wondering... Can Lessa trace her liniage (sp?) back to Red Hanrahan (the founder of Ruatha)? I know it was mentioned briefly in RoP that Jayage was probably a decendend of Liliankamp but I was wondering about some of the other MAJOR characters. I know we have Hans and others who have done this sort of work and was just wondering.
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Old Apr 28 2005, 11:51 AM   #2
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

My memory is hazy, but a lot of the Hold Records were analysed by AIVAS in ATWOP. One scene I do remember is Larad being able to trace his ancestry as Telgar's Lord Holder back to Tarvi Andiyar. I can't remember what was said about anyone else though, so sorry.
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Old Apr 28 2005, 02:59 PM   #3
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

I don't think anything was ever specifically mentioned in the books, but the last time I managed to get a look at the Ruathan bloodline on Hans's site, it did show a connection. Lot of gaps for passes/Intervals where no Ruathans are named, though.


But don't take my word for it. I'm probably misremembering something, like it's only assumed that the line continued unbroken and not certain.

Would check again, except my connection is being difficult and not letting the page load, again. :P




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Old Apr 28 2005, 05:00 PM   #4
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

I don't think she can. AIVAS did have a lot of records but couldn't register anything new after the move north. I don't think Hold records survived -- and if survived were legible -- datin back to the time of the First Interval. So, while AIVAS could reconstruct a lot of history and genealogy when scanning old Hold and Craft records, they can't have scanned them all. A lot must have been lost (like here on Earth) over the Turns, to water, fire, negligence or maybe even Thread.

For a reconstruction (with Anne's permission) of the Hanrahan-Ruatha Bloodline see my site's Holder Bloodline Section, Ruatha-Hanrahan Bloodline
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Old Apr 28 2005, 07:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

If we look at it logically... it has been 2500 years (plus) since humans first landed on Pern. In that length of time on Earth, we have trouble knowing what happenned a few hundred years ago, in FACTS from primary sources, and even secondary ones. Many, many, MANY misconceptions exist. (eg. how many 'witches' were killed during the Witch Hunts? Only a few hundred thousand compared to the millions normally bantered. And when did this take place? Many think the Middle Ages, whilst it in fact was the Earl Modern era.)

This just shows how simple it is to lose ideas and principles in that time. After all, even just a few hundred years ago the Earth was ruled by Kings who based their right to rule on 'divine right' (James I, Charles I of England) and descendance from 'Adam' the first man created by God.

Yet to look at Pern, the basic political - and even social - structure has not changed gigantically over the thousands of years since it was established due to the threat of Thread. There have certainly been changes, but compared to those on Earth during a relatively comparative stage , it is miniscule. The only thing which the Pernese seem to have lost substantually is technology, which was not mean to be a high concern on Pern anyway!

Ok.... so I have been ranyting slightly... but stil, the point remains. The only 'PROOF' we have that Lessa could trace her lineage back to Red is that she is the daughter of Ruatha, the last 'true Blood'. But over 2500 years then there would have been a substantual change in DNA formation due to the marriage of non-Ruathan people into the family, which would make it impossible to check and have an accurate impression of the ancestors. It could even be that the Lord of another Hold other than Ruatha is a more direct descendant due to intermarriage. Or even Jaxom, theoretically, could be more 'legitimate' as a descendant from this viewpoint.
However, it does seem to be likely, from the indications that we are given, about Pern, Ruatha, and Lessa herself, that Lessa IS a direct descendant from Red and Mairi Hanrahan.

sorry about the length... I got a bit carried away!
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Old Apr 28 2005, 09:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

Is it *possible*? Sure. Is it likely? Not really. Is it, after 2500 years, genetically significant? Not unless they've kept up an unprecedented run of incest at Ruatha.
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Old Apr 29 2005, 03:11 AM   #7
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

Succint and to the point, leaving me with a smile on my face. Thanks, Anareth!
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Old Apr 29 2005, 03:39 AM   #8
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

you couldn't even use miochondrial DNA, cos I'm sure thats matrilineal!
I suppose the only way they could tell would be to read up the bloodline as much as possible and hope the records haven't deteriorated too much!
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Old Apr 29 2005, 03:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
you couldn't even use miochondrial DNA, cos I'm sure thats matrilineal!
I suppose the only way they could tell would be to read up the bloodline as much as possible and hope the records haven't deteriorated too much!
I think that's axactly what the (read: AIVAS) did, Edith

DNA research will certainly not be conclusive with such a relative small population and for sure not with the major Holder families whom, I trust, became all interrelated by at least marriage over the centuries.

As for the earlier statement about the number of years in whcih able to do research. Remember Pernese wrote on hide, so, exactly like our oldest records
Here on mainland Europe the oldest records like that I have held, read and researched were dating back to the 9th century. Their legibility was virtually perfect but... the fact that they were always stored under reasonable circumstances, the last 100 under perfect conditions, must be mentioned. So roughly we could expect that Holf records dating back to about Moreta's time should be in existence and readable. Some references to Harper Hall records give the impression that the have even older records, especially because it's known that students there had to copy old records onto new hide.
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Old Apr 29 2005, 03:43 AM   #10
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

I know, I meant it like that!
Hey its only 8:40something am. I'm not properly awake yet! should be but beds too comfortable and works hard!
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Old Apr 29 2005, 05:09 AM   #11
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

Given that they started out with a population of slightly over 6000 and had increased to a thousand-fold to approx. 6 million in 2500 Turns, with the uneven weeding out by the occasional plague which literally decimated the population (some families would be more resistant than others), and the odds are that every Pernese would be related to every other by that time, if you counted back to the original colonists.
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Old Apr 29 2005, 05:31 AM   #12
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

A genealogist's dream
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Old Apr 29 2005, 05:37 AM   #13
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans
I think that's axactly what the (read: AIVAS) did, Edith

DNA research will certainly not be conclusive with such a relative small population and for sure not with the major Holder families whom, I trust, became all interrelated by at least marriage over the centuries.

As for the earlier statement about the number of years in whcih able to do research. Remember Pernese wrote on hide, so, exactly like our oldest records
Here on mainland Europe the oldest records like that I have held, read and researched were dating back to the 9th century. Their legibility was virtually perfect but... the fact that they were always stored under reasonable circumstances, the last 100 under perfect conditions, must be mentioned. So roughly we could expect that Holf records dating back to about Moreta's time should be in existence and readable. Some references to Harper Hall records give the impression that the have even older records, especially because it's known that students there had to copy old records onto new hide.

but there is a big differnece between HAVING them and KNOWING about them, for the general population. How many people on Earth today know what was happenning in the 9th century? Very few. Even about just over a century ago then people have massive misconceptions about an era or event that happenned. There may be the documents, but that does not mean that they are understood.

Also, the Records in Hold are not kept in the perfect conditions which historial documents here are kept. Only the Harper Hall would be likely to have the ability to look after their records properly, and not even they would be perfect!
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Old Apr 29 2005, 05:38 AM   #14
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans
A genealogist's dream
Or Nightmare!!!
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Old Apr 29 2005, 06:27 AM   #15
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

look at Nerilka's story. the records she looked up in the medicine stores were all in various stages of disintergration.
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Old Apr 29 2005, 08:20 AM   #16
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

I would say that after 2500 years and only 6000, or about, original colonists that everyone is related in some way to everyone. The records issue is another hole in the plot. I still have a hard time believing that people who originated from people, whom had higher then 20th century tech, couldn't have thought of using a wine press as a printing press in 2500 years or produce some sort of paper in all that time.
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Old Apr 29 2005, 08:27 AM   #17
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

but how much of the basic skills had they lost? even today alot of traditional skills are dying out?
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Old Apr 29 2005, 09:37 AM   #18
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by c_ris
Or Nightmare!!!
DREAM!

If you didn't already know, I'm a professional genealogist C_ris
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Old Apr 29 2005, 09:38 AM   #19
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
but how much of the basic skills had they lost? even today alot of traditional skills are dying out?
You're being cryptic again, Edith What basic skills? Used to to what?
If you are refering to genealogical research I'll go: huh?
If towards DNA research, I'd say: they ave none and I suspect only AIVAS was outfitted with a scanner device for it, not th workstations he left behind after he said his gooodbye -- well, when he went into a sort of hibernation, because he reacted very alert in SoP while being supposed "dead"
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Old Apr 29 2005, 10:06 AM   #20
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

I think Edith's refering to paper production on a non-industrial scale...

Remember, hides they had a-plenty.
Growing trees/rushes/whatever for paper in a pass, when food was a priority? I think not. Just look at the shock of the oldtimers about how much more cultivated land they were expected to protect from htreadfall...
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Old Apr 29 2005, 10:17 AM   #21
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

that, and that as more sophisticated things are developed old techniques get lost.

say for instance: how many people today can use log tables and slide rules well. I haven't a clue how to! without a calculator I'd have to use trial and error, and how many people today build their own houses? 2-300 years ago most people built their own.
Ye we can wipe out bacteria, fly supersonic and work out in microseconds what used to take weeks. But we've forgotten other things, and that's what happened to Pernese society before the problems. They had better things than old-style printing presses and paper, and they thought they could keep these things working. So when thread came they had no replacements!
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Old Apr 29 2005, 11:26 AM   #22
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans
DREAM!

If you didn't already know, I'm a professional genealogist C_ris
Yup, I know that! That to do a full list of whos related to whom would be almost as bad as clan !!!
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Old Apr 29 2005, 02:42 PM   #23
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

But it would be a life's job and possible acchievment ome could be proud of. I've done genealogies (the kind that holds all patrilinear as well as matrilinear descent) that hold about 15,000 persons but something on the scale of millions, that would be marvelous.

Remember, in a simple pedigree chart the number of ancestors double each generation, so...

generation-number
2-2 (parents)
3-4 (grandparents)
4-8 (great granndparents)
5-16 (etc.)
6-32
7-64
8-128
9-256
10-512
11-1024 (a gigabyte of ancestors )
12-2048
13-4096
14-8192
15-16,384
16-32,768
17-65,536
18-131,072
19-262,144
20-524,288

dont'forget tehre will be "a loss" each generatio because people can appear in a generation (more generation actually) more than once.

given that the Pernese had about 2500 Turns, with an average of three generations per Turn (that's a Terran number) a NInth Pass person should be able to have about 7500 generations of ancestors.

Err, math is not my forte
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Old Apr 29 2005, 03:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

Three generations per Turn? Three per century sounds more likely, and for the female side especially it could be even more, although three on average sounds about right. So 75 generations, which would make for an absurdly large number (2^74) of unique ancestors. Considerable loss would be needed to reach the original 6000+ colonists.
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Old Apr 29 2005, 04:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

Maybe Hans meant that in any given turn there would be at least a grandparent, parent and child.

There are a number of complications, of course. The Plague of Moreta's time, for exampole; wasn't there supposed to be another? There are also factors such as accident rate, changes in mortality rate due to changes in medical technology, changes in life expectancy, and so on.

We could also postulate the effects of stress during passes upon fertility; the direct effects of the first pass upon the population base; familial size with the demands upon woman for childbirth; the effects of draconic life upon the riders' fertility; the effects of widespread fostering; land use and its effects on supportable population; even such simple things as contraceptive and gynacological knowledge.

The factors that go into determining a population are more intricate than may initially be supposed.
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Old Apr 29 2005, 05:01 PM   #26
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

Oops, just made a silly mistake. No Ghyle, I meant full 3 generations per century, not per Turn, silly me. Thanks granath

So that would give 75 generations since Landing.

Gee, where was my min d when I posted that... maybe I was on MSN with an attractive lady ....


And Ghyle, there are supposed to have been several plagues, the best known the one that raged soon after the colonists moved north and founded Fort and the one in Moreta's time.
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Old Apr 29 2005, 06:45 PM   #27
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Default Re: Qustion about Liniage (sp?)

As far as we know, there were four plagues:

The one after the move north to Fort, First Pass

The Third Interval plague that killed Lorana's family and Igen Weyr and others

The dragon plague (Dragonsblood) that killed dragons (and caused the riders to die, too), Third Pass

Moreta's plague, Sixth Pass
~~
Back to topic, Lessa is likely related to Red because she has that dragonrider blood in her that many Ruathans have (like Alessan, Jaxom, and probably MoretaII just to name a few). That's probably not a coincidence.
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