Not sure if this has already been asked/answered somewhere, but...

[draconichybrid]

... what T-rating was Tirla given? That is, if she was even given any....

[granath]

It's been a while since I last read the Pegasus series. A good question!

[Cheryl]

Were any of the Talents actually given T-ratings at the time of Tirla? I just don't remember their strength being quantified in the beginning...

[Anneli]

I agree with Cheryl, the T-ratings appeared in the later books of the Talent series, they weren't in use during the original trilogy.

[draconichybrid]

Fine then. Change the question to: What T-rating would Tirla have been given if they were handing out T-Ratings in her day?

[D. M. Domini]

I think this was originally Granath's theory, unless I'm remembering wrong, but I concur with it--the T-scale has probably variated from when the Pegasus books took place, and when the Tower and Hive books took place, with the definition of "Prime" as the cap at any given time, and the rest of the ranks calculated down from there. Which means as the definition of the strength of a Prime changes over the centuries, so do the rest of the ranks below it.

For example--everything Peter Reidinger the 1st did could be done by a solid T-2 or T-3 or T-4 from Rowan/Damia/etc's time with a good generator behind him or her. That's not to say that Peter I *wasn't* a Prime to rival Peter Reidinger IV, Rowan, Jeff, etc., he may have been, but there's no proof that what he did couldn't have been done by Afra, Gollee Gren, Mauli and Mick, etc. We know that Afra can reach to Procyon from Iota Aurigae with generators when exhausted, as a T-3. (And if not exhausted, probably without generators.) I suspect Afra could have reached Earth, too, and Iota Aurigae is the second most distant colony planet from Earth of the original 9 Star League, barring Deneb. We know he *can't* reach to Deneb from Callisto even with generators as a T-4--but Deneb is *considerably* farther out (hundreds of light years) than any of the other planets in the 9 star league. We have no proof if Peter I could have done it either, if we did I'd call him equal to a modern Prime based on that, but given Peter the First could reach Capella from Earth he was at least strong as Afra, even if he wasn't actually as strong as a modern Prime.

So, back to the original question, it's hard to place Tirla on the modern Talent's T-rating scale, because the distribution curve of Talent strengths has very likely changed from her time to the modern Talents' times. She would be a medium-lower Talent in comparison to moden Talents, whereas she was a medium-highish in her era (my estimate).

If I stretched, in her time, if T-ratings had been in use, I'd say T-5, T-6ish. In the modern Talent books, T-8, T-9, maybe lower. She has an *interesting* Talent, but not a *strong* one. Once you hit the high end of T-5 in the modern books or so, telepaths start to have a planet-wide reach, and Tirla definately didn't have that range. But this is just my speculation...since the Pegasus books *don't* use T-ratings, it's a bit of a shot in the dark. We can only speculate based on the feats of Talent we see them using, as compared to the feats of Talent we see modern Talents using. And the heavy hitters of the modern FT&T would wipe the floor with the Talents closer to the Founding of the FT&T.

Also, mutli-Talents are much more common in the modern Talent books. I guess that doesn't have much to do with T-rating, but thought I'd throw that out.

[draconichybrid]

It seems to me that she'd be roughly comparable with Alison Greevy (Alison Greevy-Lyon?) scaling respective strengths based on time period -- Tirla's kinetic Talent was still really weak at the end of the Pegasus books, but then again, Greevy's kenesis started out weak as well. Which would put her (adjusted) T-rating at a rather solid T-4.

Granted, that's not under FT&T rankings, but the commercial ones (the scales are different)... but that's not a big problem. I can't see Tirla wanting to work a Tower (seems too boring and mundane for her somehow), and she'd have been perfectly happy working her way up the LEO ranks.

[D. M. Domini]

Alison has telekinesis? I thought she started as an empath, then developed telepathy after working with Thian...course, I never paid much attention to her, so it's possible she developed telekinesis without me noticing.

I would agree, when normalizing for the time period, Alison and Tirla would be roughly equals in power (but with vastly different Talents.)

[draconichybrid]

It would be a latent Talent, same as it was for Tirla.

And I disagree with the idea that Alison and Tirla's Talents are 'vastly different.'

Both women's primary Talents are empathic in nature, and both Talents function largely to promote order and stability.
Alison's kinetic Talent would be on her secondary Talent list initially -- which is where we have to compare skills because Tirla never got much kinetic training that we know of -- same thing applies to Tirla's kinetic Talent.

[Brenda]

Does Tirla have kinetic Talent, though? She barely even has "normal" telepathy - just with Peter, Dorotea, and Rhyssa and Sascha - sometimes. The linguistic talent is partly empathy, I would think she is partly interpreting what people mean. The most that we have seen her actually work was at the religious event, when she was translating for at least ten people in various languages! It's a good Talent, but it doesn't need to be strong.

[granath]

Indeed it doesn't. No, Tirla doesn't have kinetic talent, she's an empath/telepath. Rather like Alison Anne Greevy, she's only telepathic with people she has an emotional connection to. That may well be common with mid-strong Talents whose main talent lies in empathy or kinesis. Seems to me that with training, most kinetics and empaths beyond a certain strength can learn to be telepaths as well.

[Brenda]

I get the impression that in a merge, people who aren't kinetics can still lend their energy toward a kinetic effort.

[granath]

They can, but at a lower level than a kinetic of the same rating could.

[Brenda]

Of course.

[draconichybrid]

Originally Posted by granath

No, Tirla doesn't have kinetic talent, she's an empath/telepath. Rather like Alison Anne Greevy, she's only telepathic with people she has an emotional connection to. That may well be common with mid-strong Talents whose main talent lies in empathy or kinesis. Seems to me that with training, most kinetics and empaths beyond a certain strength can learn to be telepaths as well.

Actually... Pegasus in Space specifically mentions Tirla using kinesis (in a gesalt to boot) on those stationary train cars when Tirla and Peter are trying to escape Prince Phannibal's waste-of-volume RIG sidekick (what the heck is that jerks name again?).
She and Peter both draw off of the same generator, only her kinetic Talent is so weak at that point all she accomplishes is to deny Peter generator power. Tirla realizes this -- as does Peter -- and that's when they mind merge.
So in an unrelated tangent, Johnny is Peter's second mind merge... not his first -- and the merge would be the second ever, not the first.

Don't believe me? Check for yourselves.


Similarly, Thian specifically mentions to the First Fleet Admiral (again, can't remember the name) that Alison "has learned to 'path and 'port" in The Tower and the Hive during his little briefing on Talent.

[granath]

I really should read the books again. Tirla's kinetic talent appears to be very erratic, however, and it's by no means certain she'll ever learn to use it consciously.

Admiral Tohl Mekturian who mysteriously turns into Admiral Mekturian Tohl half-way through the book, I think? Or was it Ashiant? I can't remember which of them was First Fleet Admiral either.

IMO this is one of Anne's biggest failings as an author, she tends to endow her favorite characters with far too much development compared to others. Alison was dating Thian, so of course she had to learn to 'path and 'port even though when they met she was only a T5 empath.

[draconichybrid]

Originally Posted by granath

I really should read the books again. Tirla's kinetic talent appears to be very erratic, however, and it's by no means certain she'll ever learn to use it consciously.

Actually, I checked the Pegasus books, and can't find evidence on Tirla being kinetic.

The scene I mentioned seems to be along the lines of Brenda's suggestion. It seems likely that Alison is now at worst a T-4 telempath/kinetic -- she could actually be a T-3, T-2, or even Prime, although the chances of each grade up are less than the last....

[granath]

I doubt she's a Prime. I don't think there's been any evidence of a non-Prime developing that Talent from a weaker grade. The Rowan obviously emerged into her Talent as a Prime, and most are twigged as such at birth, possibly even earlier if the mother is a high Talent.

[draconichybrid]

Originally Posted by granath

I doubt she's a Prime. I don't think there's been any evidence of a non-Prime developing that Talent from a weaker grade. The Rowan obviously emerged into her Talent as a Prime, and most are twigged as such at birth, possibly even earlier if the mother is a high Talent.

I doubt she is as well, but she could be.

Prime likelihood I've pegged as being near zero (but not quite), T-2 is a little bit more likely, and T-3 a little bit more than that. T-4, of course, is a certainty.

After all, anything is possible... at least until it's not.
That said, 'possible' is NOT the same as 'probable'. The Sun could possibly go nova in the next five minutes, but how probable is that?

[granath]

Point taken. I still think the probability is close enough to zero as to make no practical difference. I wouldn't accept a fan fic story featuring a Talent developing from a lower rating to a Prime as following canon. But that's just me and your mileage may vary.

[GinnyStar]

I know I late to these thread.
No T-rating till the end of Pegasus in Space. In the Historical Notes Section.

And for Tirla for a T-Ranking, none that I know of.

The only time she showed a kinetic was when she helped Peter with his moving of the cars via him in a link when he merge with her. Along with the kinetic push she gave the one she diliked, for she was "mad", gave her the power she need, just before they were saved.

Just like the one who was who answer the the broad band 'path to anyone with any Talent that Rhyssa sent the person who was "shouting" to be hear his anger gave his 'path more range. In Chaper 2

[D. M. Domini]

Originally Posted by granath

Point taken. I still think the probability is close enough to zero as to make no practical difference. I wouldn't accept a fan fic story featuring a Talent developing from a lower rating to a Prime as following canon.

What if it were an AU Afra (the only character that has any solid canon that could be twisted to do this sort of fic)? Or...What if it was a story between the Pegasus and the Tower and the Hive books, exploring the sliding scale of Prime-ness? Or a time-travel fic where a modern T-2 goes back in time and is rated Prime during that period of FT&T history?

::devilish::

Devilishness aside, I concur. I don't believe it's canonly possible for a character to be rated non-Prime at some point, and then increase to a fully functioning Prime without any slight-of-hand things involved (ie, being hypnotised early on to only work at the level of a T-whatever, etc.) (Key word being "fully functional". I think it's possible to be Prime-like in some aspects, a la my theory that Afra operates at Prime-level when merged with Damia [but only when merged with Damia].)

[draconichybrid]

Originally Posted by D. M. Domini

I think it's possible to be Prime-like in some aspects, a la my theory that Afra operates at Prime-level when merged with Damia [but only when merged with Damia].)

What about under the influence of a catalytic Talent (a la Afra/Damia scene from the end of Damia, only the catalytic Talent actually gets put to use)?
[/Devil's Advocate]

[D. M. Domini]

Originally Posted by draconichybrid

What about under the influence of a catalytic Talent (a la Afra/Damia scene from the end of Damia, only the catalytic Talent actually gets put to use)?
[/Devil's Advocate]

I don't get what you're trying to point out here that I haven't already said. Yes, I think it's canonly possible for a non-Prime to operate at Prime-level when under Damia's catalytic talent. No, I don't consider those characters to be fully functional Primes, worthy of the title or T-rating of a Prime.

[draconichybrid]

Originally Posted by D. M. Domini

I don't get what you're trying to point out here that I haven't already said. Yes, I think it's canonly possible for a non-Prime to operate at Prime-level when under Damia's catalytic talent. No, I don't consider those characters to be fully functional Primes, worthy of the title or T-rating of a Prime.

...Damia's catalytic Talent could have boosted Afra up to Prime permanently -- at least, she thought it could have (and Talent is mind-over-matter, so she probably could have perma-boosted Afra).

Where a possibility exists for one, it inevitably exists for others.

[D. M. Domini]

Originally Posted by draconichybrid

...Damia's catalytic Talent could have boosted Afra up to Prime permanently -- at least, she thought it could have (and Talent is mind-over-matter, so she probably could have perma-boosted Afra).

Where a possibility exists for one, it inevitably exists for others.

Not unless Damia has the ability to manipulate genes, because Talent ability is based in your genetic code. She'd literally have to tamper with the DNA of every cell in Afra's body...or at least, in his nervous system, but if I were tampering, I'd be one to do it to all the cells, just to be safe. That could screw him up really badly if she made a mistake. I percieve the catalytic talent to be more..."mechanical". It's an amplifier; it changes his talent as it is being used, bends his mind enough to temporarily be able to handle the load when merged with her; it does not alter the source of his Talent.

Only Ruth from the Pegasus books has been shown to have the kinetic ability to manipulate genes, and even then it only kicked in during conception of her children, when they were only one cell big. One change, and boom, the effect is carried into all the rest of the cells as the embryo grows and develops. Damia has never shown any micro-kinetic ability of this type. Afra has more micro-kinetic ability than she does, what with his ability to know when the women around him are pregnant before they know. (Unless we count this one as a form of clairvoyance, which I don't think it is.)

Damia's offer I think was more...eager than realistic. A partnership, rather than an offer to tamper with his Talent genes. "If you can't walk, I will carry you".

Even if there was a Talent who could genetically alter someone in this way, which is possible...it'd still be authorial hand-waving. The person increasing their Talent wouldn't be doing so "naturally". So as it stands, in the Talent universe, there's no canon evidence that a person conclusively rated as a lower T-rating at one point in their life can increase to a *true* Prime with all of the abilities of a Prime at a later date. All examples would require genetic modification, some sort of early repression of the true strength of their Talent, or some other explanation, if the story were going to try to mesh with known canon.

[granath]

I'm sure Damia perma-boosted Afra from T-3 to T-2, through honing his innate Talent. However, I strongly suspect that to make anyone into a true Prime would require genetic tampering. They know genetics affect Talent, but I don't think they can predict Primes.

[draconichybrid]

Again, Talent is mind-over-matter -- the user imagines what he or she wants to happen, and it does, simple as that. It's the whole 'observer affecting the observed' thing; if she wanted to boost Afra bad enough, she would have. Its also why instinct counts for as much as it does.

Your point on the catalytic Talent is taken, but it isn't all that far from boosting effective strentgh to boosting actual strength, especially with Talent being "need it, use it"....

[granath]

Yes, but Talent is pretty much limited by a healthy dose of self-doubt. It would be dangerous for a low Talent to over-extend.

[D. M. Domini]

Originally Posted by draconichybrid

Again, Talent is mind-over-matter -- the user imagines what he or she wants to happen, and it does, simple as that.

I disagree with that statement. That statement is used for the Pern books, but not in the Talent books, and while Pern empathy/telepathy/telekinesis and Talent talent seem very similar, they are not set in the same universe. The Talent books state that the Talent is based in the genes, and that burnout is possible--both of which point out that it is not merely a "mind over matter" thing, but that Talent is...mmm, mechanical, something that has limits that are set forth in the genes. A lowly T-9 isn't going to bump themselves up to Prime just because they really really badly want the position, and the Rowan's worthless with her temper tantrums anyway . It's not just mysical hand-waving (or rather, it is, but because it's science fiction we give it the benefit of the doubt). How Talent DOES it is quite possibly/probably based in science we do not understand. But it is not merely "mind over matter". Primes can't just wish things to happen and have them happen unless those things very specifically fall into the ability of their Talent to handle.

There is some instinct in using Talent, much the way that when you're born with eyes, your instinct is to learn how to see, and that creatures with limbs have the instinct to learn how to walk. But would you say that because a man has a hand, he can learn how to pick up a mountain? Sure, because he is a man I'm sure he can THINK up a way to eventually move that mountain...but it's not going to literally be with his two bare hands if he manages it.

[Multi-Facets]

Instinctive, yes. Damia was using kinesis and telepathy before she even realized it.

[draconichybrid]

Originally Posted by D. M. Domini

I disagree with that statement. That statement is used for the Pern books, but not in the Talent books, and while Pern empathy/telepathy/telekinesis and Talent talent seem very similar, they are not set in the same universe. The Talent books state that the Talent is based in the genes, and that burnout is possible--both of which point out that it is not merely a "mind over matter" thing, but that Talent is...mmm, mechanical, something that has limits that are set forth in the genes.

... ... ...and the Pegasus books state (sorry, this is going to be a bit broken, since I'm focusing on Professor Gadriel):

Originally Posted by Pegasus in Space, pp 323-4 (hardcover)

"Our psychic powers utilize the quantum mechanical effects of an observer on a macroscopic scale. You know that in the realm of quantum mechanics, simply observing a particle changes its state, correct?"
...
"And we Talented people are very special observers. While nothing can be said to happen without an observer, we, with our Talents, can make things happen the way we want them."
...
"...we move objects by observing them to be in their new location... Telepathy is even easier. It is purely a quantum-mechanical effect. Telepaths think they are talking with someone, and that someone hears them -- neural stimulation at the quantum mechanical level."
<Peter, chiming in>: "Our talents work because we want them to!"

[granath]

The Talents themselves work because they want them to, but the strength is chiefly determined by heredity.

Some latent Talents probably never become active because they aren't put in a situation where their Talent would be needed. Especially on a pioneer planet where most people don't bother to get tested at a center.

No amount of wishing in the world is going to make a Prime out of a T-5. Diligent practice and a good tutor might bump them into a T-4 or possibly a T-3, and maybe develop a facet of their Talent such as telepathy. Most high-T kinetics seem to develop telepathy sooner or later, ditto empaths, even if it's only short-range work.

[D. M. Domini]

I concur with Granath.

I admit I didn't remember those lines from the Pegasus series when responding above, and my apologies about that--I'm guessing I probably didn't recall it because those lines deal with quantum mechanics, or rather, the "mechanics" of how Talent works. But quantum mechanics is a different science from biology, and just because it's "mind over matter" (a la, hand-waving quantum mechanics stuff) that causes telepathy and empathy to "work" in canon, doesn't mean suddenly "mind over matter" changes how the mechanics of biology works. Since Talent is pre-determined in the genes, those genes will encode for whatever physical forms are required in the human body, brain, and mind to be able to manipulate the quantum states so that mind-over-matter works in the first place.

Basically, what I'm saying is that it boils down to "form follows function", a rule that applies to both engineering and biology. Talent is canonly linked to being coded in the genes, which means the genes have to code for some physical something that gives the person the ability to exhibit "mind over matter" by manipulating quantum states. Further, since levels and types of Talent vary, and burnout is possible, a person can over-tax the physical structures of their mind so that they no longer are usable for Talent. Mind-over-matter doesn't apply here, otherwise people would just wish themselves whole again in these cases. Mind-over-matter only explains how acts of telepathy, clairvoyance, etc. work in the first place. If you want to change a person's "mind over matter" ability, from T-4 to Prime, or from, say, pre-cog to empath, you have to go back to the genes, and to the physical structures and changes those genes produced in the Talent's body when the genes were expressed during the person's development from embroyo to adult.

Going back to the example of Ruth, and how she genetically engineered her offspring...DNA is physically made up of chemicals. 4 base pairs encode for all genes, and changing them will change the genetic code. Ruth would have had to have micro-kinesis to be able to successfully manipulate either A) her choice of egg and sperm so that they combine to create the sort of child she wanted or B) to manipulate the genes contained in a given gamete (or gametes if she spliced genes from other gametes into the one that became her child) to encode for the traits she found desireable. If she used B, I would suspect that she also had some measure of clairvoyance linked to her use of telekinesis, to "know" which genes coded for blue eyes, and which for telepathy, etc. since I don't recall that she had any background in genetics.

So, I still stand on my opinion that it's impossible for a Prime that specifically doesn't have some sort of gene-altering Talent such as Ruth to instinctively alter another person's genes to bump them up to Prime. Due to nature vs. nurture, I think T-ratings are flexible each way one or two levels, much like you can do body building to change how big your biceps are--to a certain point--but drastic changes in T-rating would typically not happen.

(Someone who has a real background in biology feel free to kick my butt if I'm grossly mistaken anywhere here. I know I'm explaining it poorly. I had 6 semesters of biology in high school, but yeah, it was high school biology, with additions from the popular science magazines here and there, so I might well have some gaping holes in my argument!)

(Also, apologies for spelling errors; for some reason spelling is really kicking my butt today.)

* * * *

Of course, to take the topic in a new direction...I do posit that it's possible that either Damia or Afra HAS a Ruth-like micro-kinesis ability to manipulate genes...all 8 of their kids were Primes, as far as we know! What are the odds? Jeff and Rowan, a Prime-to-Prime pair, only had 3 or 4 of 5 (depending on how you classify their last kid) as Primes. So it's possible Afra or Damia are doing some unconscious genetic splicing. I would think that it would be Afra, though, that has this Talent, if this is happening, due to his ability to twig the women around him are pregnant before they are aware of it. Or, maybe Afra just has genes that really compliment Damia's and they just got lucky with all eight. Heh.

[draconichybrid]

Originally Posted by D. M. Domini

So, I still stand on my opinion that it's impossible for a Prime that specifically doesn't have some sort of gene-altering Talent such as Ruth to instinctively alter another person's genes to bump them up to Prime. Due to nature vs. nurture, I think T-ratings are flexible each way one or two levels, much like you can do body building to change how big your biceps are--to a certain point--but drastic changes in T-rating would typically not happen.

If we assume the max increase is two levels, then T-2s and T-3s have the potential to "train up to" T-1. Again, I admit that that doesn't mean a T-3 moving up to T-1 is likely, merely possible.

Originally Posted by D. M. Domini

Of course, to take the topic in a new direction...I do posit that it's possible that either Damia or Afra HAS a Ruth-like micro-kinesis ability to manipulate genes...all 8 of their kids were Primes, as far as we know! What are the odds? Jeff and Rowan, a Prime-to-Prime pair, only had 3 or 4 of 5 (depending on how you classify their last kid) as Primes. So it's possible Afra or Damia are doing some unconscious genetic splicing. I would think that it would be Afra, though, that has this Talent, if this is happening, due to his ability to twig the women around him are pregnant before they are aware of it. Or, maybe Afra just has genes that really compliment Damia's and they just got lucky with all eight. Heh.

Interesting note about Afra. If I'm not mistaken, Ruth had that "ultra-sensitive ultrasound" Talent.

[ghost8772]

As I recall Afra started the series as a T-4, but ended the Series as a T-2, there was mention in there that expanding perception and constant use, helped to increase capabilities.

Damia and Afra using Microtalent? I can't see that as a pair, Afra was so open and happy about kids in general he wouldn't care if they were 12's. Damia on the other hand I could see tampering. Though she would have come by that "having her own way" attitude honestly considering How Larak was conceived.

[granath]

If anyone feels up to writing it, I'd love to see a story about a low-Talent (or non-Talent) kid in a family full of high-Talents, both siblings and parents.

[D. M. Domini]

Originally Posted by draconichybrid

If we assume the max increase is two levels, then T-2s and T-3s have the potential to "train up to" T-1. Again, I admit that that doesn't mean a T-3 moving up to T-1 is likely, merely possible.

Sorry for the delay here; no net at home. ::curses AT&T::

I actually operate on the notion that the gap between T-3 and T-2 is not the same as T-2 and T-1. Primes seem, to me, to be "off the scale", as in if they have a big enough generator, their range is unlimited. Thian and siblings are able to reach Earth from distances far longer than any of the Towered Primes (aside from Laria) have to contend with on a daily basis. I think the T-ratings from 12 to 2 are basically "ratable", and T-1 is defined as a Talent that's so strong that it's not really worth the FT&T's time to develop a test that can categorize every Prime's hard limits as it would likely involve distances farther than the Alliance's current spread in light years, and generators that are stronger than technology can produce. For example, it's possible that Damia is (to throw a number out here) twice as strong as her mother the Rowan, but the Rowan is already so strong that Damia really has no use for the "extra" Talent except when she has to slug invading aliens that are trying to kill her. So, I think there's a range of abilities between Primes, but they are all so much more Talented than anyone else T-2 or below that they just aren't rated that finely once it's established they're past the Prime baseline.

Thus, I don't think you can say that "Any Talent can increase their rating by X levels".

Interesting note about Afra. If I'm not mistaken, Ruth had that "ultra-sensitive ultrasound" Talent.

Not really; she had micro-kinesis that allowed her to manipulate genetic material. She hasn't been known to detect early-stage pregnancies. Afra, though, has some ability to detect pregnancy at a very early stage in people he's close to. I'm thinking it may be a form of microkinesis, but it could also be clairvoyance or precognance of some sort.

Originally Posted by ghost8772

Damia and Afra using Microtalent? I can't see that as a pair, Afra was so open and happy about kids in general he wouldn't care if they were 12's. Damia on the other hand I could see tampering. Though she would have come by that "having her own way" attitude honestly considering How Larak was conceived.

I agree that Afra probably would not consciously care if he had a T-12 or a T-1 kid; I do think he may worry unconsciously in a family of high talents that a T-12 would have a serious disadvantage. If he did have the ability to microkinetically alter DNA, I think it would be unconscious, like Ruth, and that he might increase T-rating of an embroyo that's at a disadvantage just to give the kid a level field among its siblings.

In regards to Damia...Damia had no direct involvement in how Larak was conceived; that was her mother's trick with Jeff. Damia was just a lonely 3 year old. I think it's possible that Damia might do genetic changes due to her temperament, but I don't think she has any specific microkinetic ability (although her mom might; the Rowan was shown altering the chemicals in her epidermis to tan better. Damia used tanning lotion, although that might just have been an Afra-lure). Damia can probably *do* microkinetic things, but as a Prime she was trained to do macro-kinetic things instead.

Originally Posted by granath

If anyone feels up to writing it, I'd love to see a story about a low-Talent (or non-Talent) kid in a family full of high-Talents, both siblings and parents.

My Boxed kinda sorta touches on it. LOL.

Why don't you try writing it? (Or someone other than me. I have enough fics on my plate!)

[draconichybrid]

Originally Posted by D. M. Domini

I actually operate on the notion that the gap between T-3 and T-2 is not the same as T-2 and T-1. Primes seem, to me, to be "off the scale", as in if they have a big enough generator, their range is unlimited.

Agreed. But if T-1 is the "too strong to bother coming up with a full test" rating, that still doesn't affect the range of those ratings left "on the scale" -- T-12 -> T-2 -- and while we're setting things up: 'scale' implies standardization. Scale also implies homogeneity -- any one level is as 'wide' as any other level.

Say you start off smack-dab in the "center" of T-3. A gain of one rating would put you smack dab in the "center" of T-2. Gaining a second rating would put you somewhere in T-1's range (but since T-1 has no "internal pecking order test", that's all anybody can say ... officially, anyways).

Originally Posted by D. M. Domini

Not really; she had micro-kinesis that allowed her to manipulate genetic material. She hasn't been known to detect early-stage pregnancies. Afra, though, has some ability to detect pregnancy at a very early stage in people he's close to. I'm thinking it may be a form of microkinesis, but it could also be clairvoyance or precognance of some sort.

I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by D. M. Domini

In regards to Damia...Damia had no direct involvement in how Larak was conceived; that was her mother's trick with Jeff. Damia was just a lonely 3 year old. I think it's possible that Damia might do genetic changes due to her temperament, but I don't think she has any specific microkinetic ability (although her mom might; the Rowan was shown altering the chemicals in her epidermis to tan better. Damia used tanning lotion, although that might just have been an Afra-lure). Damia can probably *do* microkinetic things, but as a Prime she was trained to do macro-kinetic things instead.

I find myself wanting to say Damia has some sort of microkinesis, but that *might* just be wishful thinking....

[D. M. Domini]

Originally Posted by draconichybrid

Agreed. But if T-1 is the "too strong to bother coming up with a full test" rating, that still doesn't affect the range of those ratings left "on the scale" -- T-12 -> T-2 -- and while we're setting things up: 'scale' implies standardization. Scale also implies homogeneity -- any one level is as 'wide' as any other level.

Say you start off smack-dab in the "center" of T-3. A gain of one rating would put you smack dab in the "center" of T-2. Gaining a second rating would put you somewhere in T-1's range (but since T-1 has no "internal pecking order test", that's all anybody can say ... officially, anyways).

Scale does imply homogeneity strongly. I've been kicking it around for a while. The problem is that it breaks down when you look at the facts...it is mentioned in the books that you can have 2 T-2s in a Tower in place of a Prime, or 3 T-3s. We see some of the T-2 teams. This implies that a ranking is based on its relation to the strength of a Prime...(although, we also suspect that the designation of "Prime" has changed over the years in regards to a Prime's actual Talent as the FT&T has evolved and Talents have become stronger.) In practice, Afra, with Mauli and Mick had a hard time alone on Callisto doing what the Rowan did. And if you follow this "two T-2s equal one Prime" down to T-12...do you *really* think that 12 T-12s can take the place of one Prime? I don't. Not in any way. I would estimate that 12 T-12s in gestalt with one another could overturn a medium sized box of metal parts. Somewhere around T-3 to T-5 you fall off the "X T-X = one Prime" cart. Which implies there's a sliding scale, from T-12 to T-2. Which means you might not be able to say that a mid T-9 *always* has the potential to become a mid T-7 (using the 2 ranks idea).

And, there's also the possibility that Prime-ness isn't merely Talents too strong to rate with any sort meaning, that's just one theory...it's possible that to be Prime it means that you have some sort of perfect gestalt power in that you can lift any mass or cross any physical distance mentally assuming you have the right generator (in combination with a strong TP/TK). That'd imply that Primes are not just really strong normal Talents but have some innate special something of their own.

In any event, I don't think it's possible to "train" from non-Prime to Prime, either because the sliding scale makes the gap between T-2 and Prime too large, or because to be Prime it means you have some sort of special ability to use generators to make your reach and strength unlimited, or something else.

That's not to say I wouldn't mind someone doing a story exploring the line between T-2 and Prime, even if that T-2 became Prime, but if you're going for something very canon-compliant, it's a hard sell for me. Luckily, I'm willing to accept AUs so long as it's obvious the author shows the "mistakes" are a choice, and that they are competent writers. ::looks around for fics::

Edit: I wonder if it's possible to come up with some sort of math formula that would say, "A T-12 can lift a mass of X for a distance of X. A T-11 has 2.75 times a T-12's strength. A T-10 has 2.75 a T-11's strength." Where "2.75" is some number that makes things work. And then work it up to Prime and still have the strengths mesh with what we've seen Talents do in the books...anyone here a math geek? And what's the mass of a spoon? (A Prime can lift 1,023,290,081,200 spoons across 1,000,000 light years!)