![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Inactive
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Georgia
Gender: F
Fan of: All the Weyrs of Pern
Now Reading: Dragons Fire
|
![]()
One thing that always bothered me is why a persons sexual preference changed what dragon they get. I know, I know. McCaffrey had her reasons and I respect them, but I don't understand why something like a bisexual woman couldn't be a goldrider. I mean, HETEROSEXUAL bronzeriders sometimes have to sleep with men when their bronzes caught a green. It's just something that happens. When a goldrider's gold rises, they have to have sex with a man no matter what their preference. Now, I can see why golds, bronzes and browns would go for their own gender. Just the whole 'you have ovaries. I have ovaries. We have so much in common!' is a good enough reason for me. But with blues and greens, it seems that it's something that happens. Blues go for homosexual and bisexual men. Greens go for homosexual and heterosexual girls (Because we all know lesbians and bisexual women don't exist.. yeah right) but in all seriousness, what is it that changes the entire course of what dragons do in a Weyr?
Well lets think about this. Sometimes the popular bronzerider catches the queen. Why? Human thoughts alter the hive mind of the dragons in the Weyr, thus changing the outcome. Mirrim Impressed a green because someone told her she COULD. Someone planted the thought in her mind, and she Impressed. She was receptive to green thoughts. So, over the turns and turns, people of particular types expect to Impress certain colors. It makes much more sense than hormones and all this other stuff, and isn't horribly insulting. Disclaimer: These are just my musings. Don't take my bitterness towards some subjects to heart please. I mean to channel my negativity into humor and I ask you to take it as such. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
The Contrary
Planetary Brain
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Northern Indiana
Gender: F
Fan of: The Ship Who Searched
Now Reading: The Calhoun Collection, Nora Roberts
|
![]()
Your musings seem well thought out to me.
![]()
__________________
Thinking, understanding, reasoning, willing, call not these Soul! They are its actions, but they are not its essence. Akhenaton? (c. B.C. 1375) Egyptian King and Monotheist |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Inactive
![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern of course!!
Now Reading: The Portrait of Dorian Gray
|
![]()
One thing I would like to add...I recall reading somewhere, that a rider could make "alternate" arrangements when their dragon participated in a mating flight. That way they could ensure that their weyr-mate, or at least a person of complimentary desires is there for the conclusion of the flight!
The thing that I had thought of in the past is that if Bronzes ONLY go for hetrosexual men.... that kind of limits the chance for a homosexual guy to be in a lead position, of wing or weyr. This never really sat totally right with me, though I would highly doubt that Anne meant anything by this accidental exclusion. I remember something about a weyr benefitting from a true union between the Weyrleaders, as opposed to a Senior Queen being flown by several different Bronzes, thus having a change in Leadership a couple times a Turn....(during a Pass). A stable relationship between the WeyrLeaders making for a stable weyr. I believe in that concept!! Stability in the weyr would be a good/needed thing, as this is a group of very confident souls whose jobs are the most dangerous possible...of any world I have visited.... Egos may abound in this brother/sisterhood!! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
|
![]() Quote:
__________________
. Check out my Pern fiction!
![]() Mirrim's Vigil News from the Weyr Missing Link Dragonsong: An Alternate Tune Ghost in the Tunnels Changes at Riverbend Hold Pern Songs |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Master Archivist
![]() Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland, USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern!
Now Reading: Paladin of Souls (Bujold)
|
![]()
I think the logistics of trying to arrange for other partners doesn't work easily. Also, the end the partner(s) not participating directly in the flight would likely not really enjoy the experience -- with their partner acting as if they are possessed, it will feel like rape; it would not be a pleasant experience.
__________________
Visit one of the other sites of Cheryl's Anne McCaffrey Triad: Sariel's Guide to Pern: a detailed guide to the series The Many Works of Anne McCaffrey: largest fan site about Anne and ALL of her works McCaffrey Quest: annual trivia contest. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Senior Member
![]() ![]() Join Date: Nov 2004
Gender: F
|
![]()
Dragons are not natural animals, they were created by humans. The person who had the most to do with their creation had strong feelings about "correct" behavior regarding sexuality. She engineered the dragons to impress male to male, female to female. It was determined that it would be better if more fighting dragons had male riders because pregnancy became a real problem, limiting the rider's ability to fight Thread. I think that green dragons found they had to either impress with a sympathetic male or die. I don't know how it came about that homosexual males also appealed to blues. Maybe it also has to do with "supply and demand" or some sort of empathy we don't really understand in the makeup of blue dragons.
I think it would be possible, considering the closeness dragonriders have with members of their own weyr, to come to some sort of arrangement during mating flights. Riders of all the participants would be gathered anyway. Those who are in "relationships" could pair off together, still maintaining contact with their dragons, and let nature take it's course. It might even be a sort of consolation to the rider of a "loser" if his/her partner's dragon wins. The joy of shared experience works both ways. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Brainship
Courier
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
|
![]()
First of all, love the first post Nako (especially the part about the ovaries). Despite being gay myself, I have to admit that I hadn't actually thought enough about the fact that a gay man would never be in charge of a Weyr. I think that at times blueriders have made it to wingleader (or perhaps wingsecond) but I can't quote anything I'm afraid. But, yes, it does seem very restrictive (at least we get an otherwise pretty fair look-in at all which is pretty good for mainstream sci-fi)
As for sexuality, I think that in the Weyrs especially there is less of the need to define yourself as being straight or bi or gay. I get the impression that as they are generally looser about their attitudes to sex in general, they probably are a bit more happy about going where their desire takes them instead of the modern Western attitude of "ugh, no, I'm well straight I am yeah girls great" which stays with us and instills a sense of shame into homosexuals of any gender (even if it is less than it was 10, 20 or more years ago). It is striking that despite gay male characters cropping up in a great many of the Pern stories, not once do we ever meet a lesbian or bisexual lady. Are there any in fanficdom I wonder? Personally I think the concept of stand-ins is horrendous and offensive. In my opinion, it was invented and introduced to give narrow-minded people an "out" when thinking about their beloved bronzeriders and what they would be doing on a fairly regular basis. As I said, that's just my opinion. LOL I think I could keep going, but maybe I should stop for now!! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Dolphin Friend
![]() Craftmaster Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: CONCORD VA
Gender: F
Fan of: PERN
Now Reading: Dolphins of Pern and Queens ow
|
![]()
I was just rereading a book & it brought up a good reason why a lot of the green riders are male. A green rises offten if the rider is female then the chances of her being to ppregnet to fight thread would be greater. After all if the dragons mate so do the riders. This could cause a shortage of green dragons fighting thread.
__________________
MEDDLE NOT IN THE AFAIRS OF DRAGONS, FOR YOU ARE CRUNCHY & GOOD WITH CHOCOLATE ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() DRIVING SMART KEEPS YOU ALIVE |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Member
Jewel Junk
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Scotland
Gender: F
|
![]()
But going *between* in the first and third trimesters of pregnancy can cause miscarriage, so it's less likely that female greenriders would fall pregnant unless they (or their dragon) happened to be injured during those crucial first few months. I'm willing to bet that a number of female greenriders would have very early miscarriages without realising they were even pregnant.
And yes, Gidget2, there are lesbian characters in fandom and bisexual characters too. ![]()
__________________
"I love housework. It fascinates me. I can sit and stare at it for hours." ~ with apologies to Jerome K. Jerome ~ Cibryen Weyr |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Inactive
![]() Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Derby, England
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern
Now Reading: as usual
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
|
![]()
Yes, she had been having trouble having children because she wouldn't realize she was pregnant and would go between too much.
__________________
. Check out my Pern fiction!
![]() Mirrim's Vigil News from the Weyr Missing Link Dragonsong: An Alternate Tune Ghost in the Tunnels Changes at Riverbend Hold Pern Songs |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Member
Jewel Junk
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Scotland
Gender: F
|
![]()
D'oh! I knew I'd read it in one of the books but I couldn't remember which one, so rather than be definite I hedged my bets.
Thanks for the reference, Sara! ![]()
__________________
"I love housework. It fascinates me. I can sit and stare at it for hours." ~ with apologies to Jerome K. Jerome ~ Cibryen Weyr |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | |
Brainship
Courier
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
|
![]() Quote:
Also the lack of female greenriders in later Passes is generally considered to be because of the amount of male holders who refused their daughters to be taken on Search as they were needed to increase the population (and holdings) as handily-packaged breeding machines. Presumably any men who preferred male company would actively seek out a life in the Weyr where possible (certianly not in all cases) as it would've been known that they would be accepted there - and have a chance of Impressing. A life of openness plus the chance of a dragon or a life of hiding, suppression and guilt? I know which one I'd choose! I imagine that a similar thing happened to reduce the numbers of female Harpers come the 9th Pass (despite there being plenty in the Interval, as seen in MHoP). |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
|
![]() Quote:
__________________
. Check out my Pern fiction!
![]() Mirrim's Vigil News from the Weyr Missing Link Dragonsong: An Alternate Tune Ghost in the Tunnels Changes at Riverbend Hold Pern Songs |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Brainship
Courier
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 | |
Inactive
Join Date: Oct 2007
Gender: M
Fan of: Dragonriders |
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Member
Curlycorn
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: wv
Gender: M
|
![]()
Brown riders would nearly all be gay as well though going by that. When was the last time a brown actually caught a gold? Probably a lot of bronze dragons that never catch a gold for that matter.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Inactive
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
|
![]()
I've never bought into the idea of dragons selecting based on sexuality. There simply wouldn't be enough homosexual males to fill the ranks if every green rider had to be homosexual. There simply aren't that many homosexuals in the general population. The high estimates top out at about 10%.
Moreover, I was always under the impression from the earlier books that the typical habit was for the riders to pair off with willing women from the Lower Caverns and while a green might be mating with a dragon of another color, the two riders would be with women they had made arrangements with prior. Certainly it would be more convenient for a green rider to be homosexual...if the bronze, brown or blue rider whose dragon caught the green also happened to be. This makes no sense because now we would have to populate those ranks with homosexuals as well. We also get into the bad old days of gay-baiting by raising the spectre of "turning" riders homosexual. And of course, what are the odds that not only would there be enough homosexuals available (especially during Pass) but that they would also possess the necessary traits to Impress? This would make such individuals doubly rare, and in a very limited population of only about 1.3 million by 9th Pass. And with the premium on children and population growth, can we really expect a rate of homosexuality as high as our cosmopolitan society? It just doesn't work. As I've said elsewhere, I believe this topic has received too much attention, having probably been created and exploited by "interested parties" for their own purposes. I would expect the overwhelming majority of dragon riders (as well as Holders and Crafters) to be heterosexual, and up to 10% to be homosexual, with those riders most likely being concentrated in but not exclusively confined to the ranks of the greens. It would not be inconceivable for a homosexual gold or bronze rider to exist, and certainly a bisexual rider could easily function in those ranks. Where it might be problematic and "bar" a homosexual rider from advancement in the Weyr might only be the positions of Weyrleader or Weyrwoman, since an exclusively homosexual rider might not provide the proper motivation for his/her dragon to conduct a heterosexual mating flight. This would be an extremely serious concern in a queen rider during Interval. In a bronze rider it would merely be a largely ignored curiosity and unremarked upon except perhaps when explaining why such-and-such talented rider never became Weyrleader. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 | |||||
Brainship
Courier
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Although your general point is a good one - where are all the non-riding homosexuals if they are prevalent enough to be Impressed? Or are all such men (and in the books there are no lesbians, as had been discussed before) Searched and taken anyway? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Master Archivist
![]() Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern! |
![]() ![]()
__________________
Hans, also known as Elrhan, Master Archivist Visit The Pern Museum & Archives for all your Pern and Anne McCaffrey News and Resources! The Pern Museum & Archives is the home of the Pern Encyclopedia and the Pern Bloodlines. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Inactive
![]() Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Derby, England
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern
Now Reading: as usual
|
![]()
-Puts hand up-
Is it a completely stupid idea that 'sexuality' isn't really a factor on Pern as it is here on Earth? On Pern, I'm of the opinion that people have a lot more sexual awareness (Perhaps not so much in the holds as in the Weyrs). It wouldn't be taboo on Pern, or against any moral code (see: lack of religion). If one for example, wasn't attracted romantically to one of the same sex, that wouldn't really have a standing on the sexual side of things, since a flight is just that. Lust. Individuals are lost within their own dragon's conciousness anyway. Personally, even if someone were 'straight', they wouldn't particularly care about flights. (With the exception of course...but that's perhaps for the Bronze Dragons to notice). |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 | |
Inactive
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
|
![]() Quote:
Last edited by ElectricDragon; Jan 13 2008 at 01:50 AM. Reason: Formatting. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 |
Dolphineer Journeywoman
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Australia
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragons of Pern
Now Reading: Puzzles and my thesaurus!
|
![]()
I was re-reading Dragonquest recently and Brekke said to F'nor that crafters and holders have a lot more "hang-ups" about things then what weyr bred people do. I vaguely recall something similiar being said between Tai and F'lessan when they went swimming. So obviously the weyrs don't mind gay people, nudity etc...as much as what the Crafts and Holds do about everything and anything in particular. Don't mind me rambling on, it was a thought only!
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 |
Brainship
Courier
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 | |
Inactive
![]() Join Date: Nov 2005
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern |
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#26 | |
Inactive
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Loo-a-vull / Luhvuhl / Loo-ih-ville / Loo-a-ville / Looeyville / Lewisville Oh, Heck. Kentuckiana.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonflight |
![]()
How funny.
I was reading the slightly warm (I won't say heated, but it was definitely a tad warm) debate between Gidget2 and ElectricDragon, and my IE crashed. Wow. Anyway - I find the best thoughts on dragons Impressing come from fandom - DragonChoice, actually, written by one of MoM's members GirlSlick. The DragonChoice Theory goes into a very good discussion of how dragons choose their partners - and it has nothing to do with sexuality. Quote:
Since, according to the books anyway, the average age of a candidate is the mid-teens, their sexuality would already be making itself apparent - at least to them. So, you have several males who already know they like their own sex. They also know that a green dragon is female and will be flown by .... wait for it .... a male dragon ridden by a male rider. They know they won't be blamed for being chosen by whatever dragon chooses them. So they start thinking their welcoming thoughts to the greens that come out. JACKPOT!!!!!!!!! Granted, this isn't the case for all men who Impress greens, but it could narrow down the field a bit more. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#27 | |
Inactive
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Loo-a-vull / Luhvuhl / Loo-ih-ville / Loo-a-ville / Looeyville / Lewisville Oh, Heck. Kentuckiana.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonflight |
![]() Quote:
There are many SF/Fantasy stories and books out there that deal with telepathic communication, and many of them deal with the fact that sex with the body can be enhanced when both beings are also telepathic. The Dragon/Rider experience takes this one step further. It changes things, that's true, but I don't think it "turns the laws and mores of reality on their ear". I think that it is a great concept that, when originally written, was fresh and new and probably one of the selling points of Weyr Search/Dragonrider/ Dragonflight. It's ideas like this that every writer prays for. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 |
Dragonrider
![]() ![]() Candidate Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Iowa City, IA United States
Gender: F
Fan of: Crystal, Pern, Dino P.
Now Reading: The Death of Artemio Cruz, Fuentes
|
![]()
I totally agree with you, Shalyn!
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#29 |
Master Artist
![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern,The Ship Who Sang
Now Reading: Anne's Pern EVERYTHING !
|
![]()
Shayln, you make some very nice and practical points...especially those from Dragonchoice.
In my opinion...I don't think that being a person that enjoys the same sex would have been looked down upon on Pern in the same way it has been traditionally look at on Earth in the past. Mostly because of the lack of Religion on Pern. I believe that in the weyr it's treated as just a variance of sexual likes. I don't think anything is thought by the weyrfolk, about a rider that enjoys same sex riders, as making that rider less capible of leading a wing, or of commanding a weyr..it would just depend on his excellent capabilities to lead his men fantasticly well...and what would that have to do with his or her sexual choices....but more what color his dragon was and how talented the rider and dragon were when flying and fighting. Who you enjoy sex with has nothing to do with how well your mind works...or how well you do your job...or especially how well you fly your beloved dragon...in my opinion.
__________________
"To the Horsehead Nebula and back we shall make beautiful music"..."Together!" ![]() ![]() ![]() The stories of childhood leave an indelible impression,and their author always has a niche in the temple of memory from which the image is never cut out to be thrown on the rubbish heap of things that are outgrown and outlived........Howard Pyle |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#30 | |
Inactive
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#31 | |
Inactive
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
|
![]() Quote:
What might be lurking in someone's mind that you would encounter if you merged with it? So let's say a telepathic man and woman have sex and in the process merge minds and she discovers that he really enjoys putting ordnance on target and really couldn't care less about collateral damage and he discovers she's thinking that she'd rather be doing it with someone richer. Interpersonal relationships are messy enough as it is...would telepathy really be such a great addition to the mix? The author has managed to duck the issue by providing the filter of the dragons. There is no merger between the humans. And the dragons really aren't fully developed people. They're more like talking animals. They're totally accepting, loving and non-judgmental about their riders...thankfully for the riders! There is the distinct possibility that reading another person's mind could only be the most hideous form of rape imaginable. Some authors have thought about this, and you can see it in the convenient provision of the ability of telepaths to "hold back" part of themselves, "erect shields" or otherwise sequester portions of their minds. How would it really be? Who knows? If such sequestration is not possible, what a horror! And how would the Weyr lifestyle and mores not be totally at odds with the prevalent behavior, laws and morality of the present day? Do you know of any place where the population routinely engages in bouts of wanton sex driven by external stimulus and shrugs it off? How many places do you know where any such activity would frankly be illegal? And how many places are that accepting of sex between unmarried partners, multiple partners, same sex partners, and with such frequency? Absent certain clubs in certain highly cosmopolitan municipalities, I think you'll be hard pressed to find anything approximating the Weyr lifestyle within present laws and mores. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#32 | |
Inactive
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
|
![]() Quote:
Survival is a harsh, nasty competition that consistently favors those who can breed and who stand by their bloodlines. Unfortunately, these biological imperatives place homosexuals at a disadvantage. On Pern, no one may be calling a homosexual a pervert, but they might be calling them expendable. One is less prudish and judgmental than the other, but they're both fatal! |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#33 |
Dolphin Friend
![]() Craftmaster Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: CONCORD VA
Gender: F
Fan of: PERN
Now Reading: Dolphins of Pern and Queens ow
|
![]()
Suide is not as taboo there as it is here. I think if someone wanted to die they could take a poison or something that is a lot less painful than being eaten alive by thread. I do not believe that anyone would choose that way to die.
__________________
MEDDLE NOT IN THE AFAIRS OF DRAGONS, FOR YOU ARE CRUNCHY & GOOD WITH CHOCOLATE ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() DRIVING SMART KEEPS YOU ALIVE |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#34 |
Dolphin Friend
![]() Craftmaster Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: CONCORD VA
Gender: F
Fan of: PERN
Now Reading: Dolphins of Pern and Queens ow
|
![]()
Suiside is not as taboo there that it is here. There are lot easier way to die than being eaten alive by thread. I think if some one wanted to die they would drink a over dose of felis os something of that nature. I do not belive that anyone would choose to die by being eaten alive.
__________________
MEDDLE NOT IN THE AFAIRS OF DRAGONS, FOR YOU ARE CRUNCHY & GOOD WITH CHOCOLATE ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() DRIVING SMART KEEPS YOU ALIVE |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#35 | |
Starsmith
![]() ![]() Weyrwoman Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North
Fan of: Moreta |
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#36 |
Inactive
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A cozy house in the dales of Debyshire, in little old England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Pern Saga
Now Reading: No time to read, am writing!
|
![]()
I have to agree with Kath - you can find that sort of behaviour going on if you look for it.
ElectricDragon - take a look at the history of sex and sexuality on this planet. Until religion started sinking it's teeth into it, most people didn't have an issue with it. Remove the religious constraints and issues from sex and sexuality and you get some surprising results. FYI - it is a conservitive estimate at best that 10% of the population are gay/lesbian. Why? Becasue of the people asked by Kinsey only 10% were willing to state they were gay/lesbian (this of course was at a time when being such was taboo). That survey and report has been called into question over the last few decades by lots of leading psycologists as being inaccurate, and geared to a particular political view point. In the UK, the government believes that 5-7% of the population are gay/lesbian. Most psycologists put the figure at closer to 20% - becasue again, not everyone asked is honest about what they are. In truth human sexuality is far more fluid, and the labels we use to define it are what screws it up. Very few human being are 100% straight/gay/lesbian - they are bisexual to a degree. I know more bisexual people then I do straight/gay/otherwise. Most of them don't define there sexuality with a lable, they just have a wider choice of people they can fall for/be with/have sex with. Given that Pern is set in our future - and baring any sort of extreme religion taking over the world and forcing it's view on how we should all live on us, I can forsee (without hessitiation) a time when human sexuality is not so rigidly defined by terms of "gay," "stright," "bi," etc etc, and people just fall for people - regardless of what sex they are. If the bulk of the Pern coloney are made up of people like that, then I have no problem with forseeing that they would be able to find enough sutable men as partners for Green and Blue dragons. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Mirrim's father a green rider? If so then it would seem that some green riders do have relationships with members of the oposite sex... Whilst I do agree that the Weyrs seem to have a more open mind on the issue of sexuality then the Holds - the Holds would be hard pressed to justify removing so many people from the population as you suggest - at the end of the day they would be cutting there own noses off to spite there faces. I would imagin that most Lord Holders are educated on these facts, and probubly see to it that any males that show "homosexual tendancies" are sent to the weyrs. In fact there is overwealming evidence in the books to support that - off the top of my head, I can think of a scene from MasterHarper of Pern that deals with just that. And no offense Electric Dragon, but gay and lesbian people have spent nearly 2000 years on this planet dealing with persicution, narrow mindedness, and prudish people - and yet, they have survived, and prospered - and (gasp) in a few countries are beginning to get equal rights and treatment. Given that gay/lesbians were able to hide from such treatment on Earth - do you not think that they would be able to survive such treatment on Pern? And knowing that they would be accepted in the Weyrs, make there way there? Are you suggesting that Pern - which is set in our future, is less advanced socially? I'm sorry but I find no evidence within the books to support that idea. Individual characters may have there own issues with it - but human life seems to valued by most on Pern. I don't think that Pern is that dark and dangerious a place for us homos. Yes, Anne has some very old fashioned ideas about gay men - I have no issue with that. She's 80+ years old. She's allowed. At least she included gay men/characters in her stories - which less face it, for it's "ground breaking ideas" Star Trek never did (and no I don't count the girl on girl kiss in DS9 - becasue it never happend again with that character...). I've often wondered what happend to all the lesbians - I guess none joined the coloney, or have ever been born on Pern. More as likely they have never been written about. Looking at the facts - what is the total number of dragonriders in Pern's population? Now how big is the total population, and is 10% (keeping this conservitive for arguments sake) of that number greater or less then the total number of dragonriders? Work that out, and then you will have an answer as to whether the weyrs would be hard pressed to find enough men to ride green/blue dragons. Remember, if we stick to the conservitive esitmate, for every one million people you have on Pern, one hundred thousand would be gay. Pern isn't perfect, but it is what it is - fiction. Try and enjoy it as such. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#37 |
Inactive
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A cozy house in the dales of Debyshire, in little old England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Pern Saga
Now Reading: No time to read, am writing!
|
![]()
Second Pass Demegraphics (rough - becasue it has been a slow day, and I was bord).
Based on info in Red Star Rising (DragonsEye), this are some very rough mussings; Bitra had close to 25,000 people in it's borders, and was considered to be a "small hold." Given that there were about 15 major hold areas of various sizes I have decided to use this as a rough figuire for working out the population. This of course does not include the larger minor holds. 25,000 x 15 = 375000. Each Weyr had about 500 dragons (keeping things conservitive), so that gives Pern roughly 3,000 dragonriders (500 x the then 6 Weyrs). Support personal, not sure what a good ratio is here, so I am going to go with 4:1 - so each Weyr probubly had around 2,000 support personal - given us a total of 12,000. So the total rough population for the Weyrs is about 15,000. So 15,000 + 375,000 = 390,000 as a rough population for Second Pass Pern. Now things get interesting... The rough dragon population is around 3,000 - of which half are green (so 1,500 - if I have my ratio right). The other 1,500 are blue, brown, bronze and gold dragons. So looking at it logically the Weyr would need around 2,000-2,500 gay/bixsexual men to fulfil it's requirments for riders. Everyone ok with those figures? Now onto the really fun bit; Pern's rough total population for the Second Pass is 390,000 - of which 50% are men - so 195,000. If we abide by dear old Kinsey's idea that one in ten men is gay that gives Second Pass Pern a rough gay population of: 19,500. This figure of course does not include bisexual men - which I don't have the figures on, but even if that accounts for one of the remaining nine out of ten men - that's still nearly 40,000 people, of which the Weyrs need 2,000-2,500. I don't see a problem with the Weyrs being able to find enough men to fill there needs - certainly in Second Pass Pern. Obviously as the population got bigger, there was a bigger pool of men to draw from. ![]() Again, these are very quick and rough figures ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#38 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Gender: M
Fan of: The White Dragon
Now Reading: Skies of Pern
|
![]() Quote:
While I consider myself straight, there have been a few men in my time that I had thoughts about that I surprised myself with. Also, there have been studies that show that very homophobic men do tend to be sexually stimulated by pictures of male erotica (I'm not sure about females, but it is easier to measure male stimulation). Is this because their upbringing (either culturally, morally, or religiously) has ingrained in them a dislike of homosexuals, and the feelings that they are having confuse them, and they want to rid themselves and everyone else of those types of feelings? So, if, as I've stated, people are on a sliding scale of homosexuality, then when the dragon emotions take over, it is easier to imagine someone getting "lost in the moment". Now what would be truly interesting, especially since in the later stories, more women are starting to impress green dragons, would be to see a blue dragon impressed by a woman. I could see the Holds, being the most conservative of the occupations, being more disgusted with homosexuality, and sexuality in general. The Weyrs beint the most liberal regarding both. The crafts would probably vary by craft in how they considered the issue, but, other than craft politics, the crafts would try to recognize people by their ability to do the job first. GH |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#39 | |
Inactive
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A cozy house in the dales of Debyshire, in little old England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Pern Saga
Now Reading: No time to read, am writing!
|
![]() Quote:
I think the fact we are moving towards a more fluid take on sexuality is what allows situations like the one on Pern to exist. That, and the maths kind of back things up as well, LOL (so kudos to Anne on that score). I think in terms of the series, as Anne wrote it (and it has to be remembered when she wrote the early books), she did have (for the time) a very progressive outlook on sexuality. Looking back on it now, it is very dated in some respects. However, becasue it has never been shown to be a major issue on Pern, I have no issues with it. Whilst Holders and Crafters alike may have a more prudish outlook on the subject, they have never been shown to be outright hostile to young men who had shown "homosexual tendancies" - and whilst some ended up in the Weyrs, some didn't - given some of the comments in other books (such as Toric trying to bribe a Green Rider from Southern by offering to find him a "friend" "The Dolphins of Pern" - the Healer at Fort Weyr in "Moreta", ok he did end up at a weyr, but not as a Dragonrider). I stand by my earlier comments about the Lord Holders. I think there is evidence with the books to support the idea, but I agree that they wouldn't be as liberal in there outlook as the Weyrs on the subject. Disgusted? Not sure. We know that Shagall ("Moreta") had issues with homosexuality, because he was "Hold Bred" - but would his views be the common one held by Holders and Crafters? Again, there is no evidence to support that. Last edited by Jayru; Jan 14 2008 at 07:06 PM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#40 |
Dragonrider
![]() ![]() Weyrwoman Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
|
![]()
Possibly it's used as an excuse by the ignorant and inflexible?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Collecting Highlight (12) - A Diversity of Dragons | Hans | Collecting Highlights Archives | 26 | Jun 15 2017 07:53 AM |
Pern Colonist Genepool topic | Brenda | Dragonriders of Pern | 139 | Oct 11 2010 11:16 PM |
Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex | Cheryl | Dragonriders of Pern | 167 | May 7 2010 07:12 PM |
Dragonsue | Shalyn | Exhibit Hall | 45 | Oct 13 2009 09:42 AM |
Adult topic: When a green flies, how many other dragons try to catch her? | D. M. Domini | Dragonriders of Pern | 50 | Oct 11 2008 05:27 PM |