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Old Jun 14 2008, 02:59 PM   #1
Shalyn
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Default Ramoth's Offspring

Hans, I've been searching the Pern Archives but can't find the info - didn't you say you had made a list - or tentative list - of all of Ramoth's queen offspring?

We know that Prideth is her first, and we're pretty sure that Wirenth was in there several Turns later...but how many more did she have? Did she, or could she have had one after coming back from her trip downtime?

Or can I make that all up?
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Old Jun 14 2008, 04:20 PM   #2
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

No, you remember well, but the spreadsheet isn't up on my site since I'not done with the research... I did post some data here though, I'm sure of it.

Did a search and found it, it's this post (in the Should Tod's work be cannon thread): http://forums.srellim.org/showpost.p...&postcount=153

Can you get what you want from this post, Shalyn?
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Old Jun 14 2008, 04:25 PM   #3
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

Hmm, I copied the complete "reconstruction" from the spreadsheet but posting it here will ruin the layout... Remember please that this was orginally set up to reconstructe the total number of hatchlings over a certain amount of Turns. I filled in the extra (known) data later.

(proven hatching in blue, none proving/extrapolated in back)
#of hatching - Pass - queen (rider) - bronze (rider) - number of eggs (c = circa/estimate) - remarks including source (book/stiry) if known

1 9 Ramoth (Lessa) Mnementh (F'lar) 41 Benden 2508 Clutch with Prideth (q) & Lioth (brz) and a blue Impressed by L'vel SDB
2
9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2509 Clutch with Lamanth (q) D2:40
3 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2509 Clutch with Ralenth (q)
4 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2510
5 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2510
6 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2511 Clutch with Varena's queen?
7 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2511
8
9 Ramoth Mnementh 40 Benden 2512 Clutch with Wirenth (q) & Heth (brz) SDB
9 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2513
10 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2513
11 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2514
12
9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2514 Attended by Felessan and other weyrboys D2:91-92
13
9 Ramoth Mnementh 38 Benden 2515 Clutch with Ruth & Talina's queen
14 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2515
15 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2516
16 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2517
17 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2517
18
9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2518 Clutch with Golanth (brz) & Path (gr), Horoth (brz) and a green Impressed by Catrul [DLG-Impr]
19 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2519
20 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2519
21 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2520
22 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2520
23 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2521
24 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2521
25 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2522
26
9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2423 "Good sized clutch" D3:146. Clutch with stolen queen egg (which hatched earlier), at least two browns D3:143,146, two bronzes D3:145-146
27 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2523
28 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2524
29 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2524
30 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2525
31 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2525 No gold eggs
32 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2526 No gold eggs
33 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2526 No gold eggs
34 9 Ramoth Mnementh c 30 Benden 2527 No gold eggs
35
9 Ramoth Mnementh 35 Benden 2528 Ramoth's 35th clutch/35 eggs
"The great queen rarely laid fewer than twenty eggs" - this clutch had a queen egg (Breda's Amaranth), the first in twelve seasons & 12 brz, 4 bro plus good distribution of bl & gr
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Old Jun 14 2008, 06:23 PM   #4
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

Perfect! Thanks!

Hmm. So in 2508 she had Pridith, and in 2509 she had her next clutch. Which brings up several questions, and I may have my "timing" off.

First-off, is Turn's End at the equivalent of "December"? As in, wintertime? I'm trying to get the sequence of events going along, climate-wise, and time-wise. And since I don't think the Pernese use months the way we do, I'm going to use Earth terms. So...

We had Meron et al trying to storm the Weyr at about the same time that Mnementh few Ramoth.

Ramoth clutches, Kylara Impresses Pridith.

F'nor comes in from Tillek talking about dust storms, F'lar has a cow. Thread falls over Nerat, but they get there in time because of the "between times" thing.

F'lar angsts about not enough dragons

Lessa in a jealous pique wants Kylara "turns away" from her, which gives F'lar the idea for the Southern Project. They go South, and back 10 Turns.

Lessa goes back in time

Lessa comes forward in time.

---------------------------------

So...by my reckoning, the dust storms happen in April. This is based on the "unseasonable cold" - in my neck of the woods, April is when it starts getting warm.

So...if Ramoth rose at the end of August, then Prideth would have hatched at the end of December. Unless by "Clutch" that means when the eggs were laid.

It's not a big deal, but I want Ramoth to have a flight/clutch not long after they get back. Not for any major plot point, just because Weyrwomen talk about these things.

But I can work with this. Thanks!
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Old Jun 14 2008, 06:59 PM   #5
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

I worked out the timeline of Dragonflight in detail, using both the book and the timeline that Fonstad figured out in the Atlas.

In the earlier books Anne used a 12 month calendar (a later one claims 13), and that's the basis of my timeline dates. According to the DLG, the Pernese calendar is 362 days long, broken into 12 months, with a leap year every sixth year. I don't know when the leap day is added, but have arbitrarily decided to make the 6th and 12th months be the ones with 31 days, and the rest normally have 30. Turn's End is in the winter in the northern hemisphere, and equivalent of our New Year's.

By that calendar set-up and using the time clues given in DF, here's the dates you are interested in:

11.11.450 Mnementh flies Ramoth; F'lar becomes Benden Weyrleader

2.15.1 Ramoth begins laying her first clutch of 41 eggs, including a queen egg; laying takes several days

3.20.1 Hatching of Ramoth's first clutchp; Kylara Impresses Pridith; N'ton Impresses Lioth

4.1.1 Dust storms at Tillek

4.8.1 F'nor and Lessa scout the Southern Continent for a place to locate a Weyr
Late in the afternoon, the Southern expedition leaves

4.9.1 Lessa jumps between times to end of 8th pass
Lessa returns at dusk to Ruatha, with the five lost Weyrs
F'nor brings forward the southern expedition, with 72 mature fighting dragons. D1:17

4.11.1 Lessa returns to Ruatha from Oldtime by mistake on this date; Lytol directs her to go back two days



After this, the timeline is wide open for the next 6.5 years before Dragonsong and Dragonquest begin. The only tricky bit that might affect your story is figuring out when Lessa conceived and was pregnant F'lessan. Because of the age he is said to be in DQ/WD, he had to have been conceived at one of two times: Either immediately after Lessa returned from the 8th Pass with him born prematurely. Or Lessa had to have just entered her 2nd trimester when she made the leap back in time (as that's the only trimester that between doesn't cause miscarriage, but even so with that long leap through time you'd think it would've caused problems), which puts conception with Ramoth's first flight.
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Old Jun 14 2008, 09:05 PM   #6
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

Ah, Cheryl! I knew there was a timeline! Thanks for the link. It's funny - some things I can find easily by searching on the Internet, some I can't.

Lessa getting pregnant on Ramoth's flight does not work for me. You'll see why (though at the rate I'm going, the twins will be in high school by the time I'm done.)

I did make her pregnant right after coming back forward. But if Hans' dates are right, then Ramoth doesn't fly until next Turn.

So, thanks to Hans I have a dragon's name, but I'm going to take artist's liberty with the timeline of Ramoth's next queen.
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Old Jun 15 2008, 05:54 AM   #7
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

In the as yet unpublished bloodline of F'lessan I have:

F’lessan of Benden Weyr / Honshu Weyr Hold
(Felessan), born 2508 (based on the fact that it is mentioned F'lessan is Jaxom's junior by three Turns), rider of bronze Golanth (Impressed 23 fourth-month 2518), died during the Ninth Interval.
M
ate 1: Nera, a weyrgirl Benden Weyr.
Mate 2: Faselly, a weyrgirl at Southern Weyr.
Mate 3: Brinna, a weyrgirl at Fort Weyr.
Weyrmate of
Tai of Monaco Bay Weyr/Honshu Weyrhold, born Keroon c. 2515 (in her mid-twenties when she meets F'lessan), rider of green Zaranth (Impressed unexpectedly in AAT 2549), apprentice Starsmith (was apprenticed to Master Wansor), died during the Ninth Interval; daughter of N.N., a Journeyman Smith, and N.N.
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Old Jun 15 2008, 08:09 AM   #8
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

That does make sense, Hans. Actually, the only thing that I am finding hard to work with is no clutch or no queen dragon until 2509.

It's not that important...I'll let y'all decide if it reads right...if it ever gets finished.
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Old Jun 15 2008, 11:38 AM   #9
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalyn View Post
That does make sense, Hans. Actually, the only thing that I am finding hard to work with is no clutch or no queen dragon until 2509.
But for that you need older data that has nothing to do with Ramoth I had a difference of opinion on Nemorth's number of clutches with the only other person ever involved in dragon demographics (Hartley Patterson).

But if you can live with that... (and in fanfic you can adapt and extrapolate all you want...)

Feyrith
1 pre 9 Feyrith (Carola) Spakinth (C'rob) ? Benden 2458 Clutch hardening in Benden during late autumn, when dragons came on Search (in Harper Hall too) MHoP
2 pre 9
Feyrith Spakinth ? Benden c 2460 Weyrlings of this clutch mentioned when Falloner and Robinton observe a later clutch MHoP
3 pre 9
Feyrith Chendith (S'loner) ? Benden 2462 The clutch that Robinton and Falloner observed (when he first visited the Weyr with his mother) did not have many eggs in it but was much larger than Feyrith's last by Spakinth MHoP last
4 pre 9 Feyrith Chendith 10+ Benden 2465 Feyrith's last clutch (she died in 2470) with Nemorth (q) and 9 brz. Clutch with Simanith (brz), Hath (brz), Tuenth (brz), Larth (bro) & 6 others Robinton knew personally MHoP UK 170

Nemorth
1
pre 9 Nemorth (Jora) Chendith (S'loner) 20 Benden 2472 6 brz, 3 bro, 5 bl & 6 gr MHoP
2 pre 9 Nemorth Simanith (F'lon) 19 Benden 2479 Clutch turn after birth of Famanoran MHoP
3 pre 9 Nemorth Simanith 24 Benden 2488 Clutch with Mnementh (brz) & Canth, (bro), at least 4 brz. total, said to be Nemorth's 3rd clutch MHoP
4 pre 9 Nemorth Hath (R'gul) c 10 Benden c 2494
5 pre 9 Nemorth Hath c 10 Benden c 2500
6 pre 9 Nemorth Hath 12 Benden 2505 Clutch with Ramoth (q)

or do you want them even earlier?
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Old Jun 15 2008, 05:34 PM   #10
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear.

I meant Ramoth not Clutching until 2509. But like you said, fanfiction is a whole other gener.

Heck, if Anne can write everyone into the same age category, I can take minor liberties with Fanfic
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Old Jun 15 2008, 06:51 PM   #11
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

Ah, OK.
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Old Jun 16 2008, 06:17 AM   #12
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheryl View Post
The only tricky bit that might affect your story is figuring out when Lessa conceived and was pregnant F'lessan. Because of the age he is said to be in DQ/WD, he had to have been conceived at one of two times: Either immediately after Lessa returned from the 8th Pass with him born prematurely. Or Lessa had to have just entered her 2nd trimester when she made the leap back in time (as that's the only trimester that between doesn't cause miscarriage, but even so with that long leap through time you'd think it would've caused problems), which puts conception with Ramoth's first flight.
Shalyn's definitely going to have to go with the former for plot purposes, and there are plenty of issues that could be responsible for both premature labour and failure to conceive again. A friend of mine has a bicornate uterus - pretty nasty in RL, but a highly practical plot device for causing premature, high-risk breech deliveries of the few babies that don't miscarry earlier on. Just thought I'd throw that in.
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Old Jun 16 2008, 09:07 AM   #13
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath View Post
Shalyn's definitely going to have to go with the former for plot purposes, and there are plenty of issues that could be responsible for both premature labour and failure to conceive again. A friend of mine has a bicornate uterus - pretty nasty in RL, but a highly practical plot device for causing premature, high-risk breech deliveries of the few babies that don't miscarry earlier on. Just thought I'd throw that in.
I know I should look this up, but is a bicornate uterus something that can be diagnosed by people with the limited medical technology of Pern? Or is that something that was discovered after electricity?

And...you've got my latest, so let me know if I'm making sense.
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Old Jun 16 2008, 09:30 AM   #14
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

But Shalyn, surely it doesn't need to be diagnosed?
It would just provide a plausible reason, despite the fact you can't name it Or maybe you could have the healer use some vague term that might imply something like/near it?
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Old Jun 16 2008, 09:38 AM   #15
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalyn View Post
I know I should look this up, but is a bicornate uterus something that can be diagnosed by people with the limited medical technology of Pern? Or is that something that was discovered after electricity?
No, you really need x-ray tech and a hysterosalpingogram to diagnose it... but (like Hans says) the Pernese wouldn't necessarily need to know the details. Give her a sufficiently rough birth with F'lessan (her small/narrow frame would make things instantly worse for her there), then a succession of serious late 1st-tri to mid second-tri miscarriages (there's any number of complications you can get with retained products, extended bleeding and infections) and pretty soon you could have her in a condition where she'd both be finding it harder to conceive at all, and the Weyr healers would be insisting she abort for her own safety. Something like a placental abruption is another possible serious complication for both mother and baby, but probably a little too lethal given the state of Pernese healthcare....

Quote:
And...you've got my latest, so let me know if I'm making sense.
Will do - I'll hopefully read it tomorrow evening.
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Old Jun 16 2008, 10:37 AM   #16
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalyn View Post
I know I should look this up, but is a bicornate uterus something that can be diagnosed by people with the limited medical technology of Pern? Or is that something that was discovered after electricity?
But PERN has sonograms, and maybe the equivalent of MRI's/CT scans.

The dolphins.

After the sailors/fishermen, the medical profession of PERN would have the second most need of the dolphins.

GH
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Old Jun 16 2008, 10:42 AM   #17
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

Quote:
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But PERN has sonograms, and maybe the equivalent of MRI's/CT scans.

The dolphins.

After the sailors/fishermen, the medical profession of PERN would have the second most need of the dolphins.
A dolphin-aided sonohysterogram is a definite possibility, but only once they've advanced dolphin/human medics to the point of filling the uterus with sterile saline via a catheter through the cervix first... without that, they just wouldn't have the contrast. It's a great idea though, just not before the post-AIVAS era.
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Old Jun 16 2008, 10:36 PM   #18
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Default Re: Ramoth's Offspring

Yeah - don't forget the story will be taking place at the time of Lessa's ride, decades before the rediscovery of the dolphins!
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