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Old Jan 27 2008, 01:44 PM   #1
Thea
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Default Pern's worst?

Who, in your opinion, are the worst antagonists in Pern's history?

I must admit, I find choosing difficult. There are a lot of bad characters in the books, all with either extenuating circumstances or character flaws, and their stories have shaped Pern into what it is today, but which characters do you think are the worst?

-Personally speaking, I would have to have Avril Bitra on my list of worst antagonists. If not for her actions, then Pern's history might have been very different, right from the beginning.

-Fax would be next. Greed and cruelty made him into one of the most infamous of Pernese antagonists (throughout typing this I've been wondering whether or not to use the word 'villain' instead of 'antagonist'), and also one of the most ambitious. Also, without Fax, Lessa's situation would have been quite different...

-Next, I'd pick Chalkin. Again, his greed and dereliction of duty to his Hold, not to mention his cruelty, made him stand out as a particularly nasty individual in my opinion.

Sorry if this has already been discussed! I did a search and I looked through the threads in this section, but there are a lot of threads to look through!
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Old Jan 27 2008, 02:34 PM   #2
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Who, in your opinion, are the worst antagonists in Pern's history?
Thread. It may not be a person, but it is still an antagonist.

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Old Jan 27 2008, 02:39 PM   #3
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Ah, good point. I can't believe I overlooked that...I got so carried away with wording it correctly that it didn't turn out right.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 02:53 PM   #4
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@ GH


As a person, Fax.

Fax was an outright murderer and viscious conqueror who enoyed a good bloodbath where Chalkin was more the Gestapo kind of villain with a tendency for criminal negligence and Avril was the prototype of a greedy villain who murdered but not out of sheer delight, despite her having a definite streak of sadism.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 03:56 PM   #5
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Default Re: Pern's worst?

Thella. She started out so promising, but ending up just roaming the landscape chewing the scenery. She could have been used so much more interestingly as an antagonist with a bit more thought.


[missing the point intentionally...]
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Old Jan 27 2008, 06:53 PM   #6
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Kath: heh. In the sense of "Worst Written", Thella, with Avril and Kylara running neck in neck for second.

In the case of worst as a person/thing, since Thread and plauges are by nature not evil (they have no self-awareness and you cannot be evil without being self-aware), I would have to say Chalkin. Fax was a warlord--he did nasty things, but with a logical purpose (acquisition of land and property.) He killed people in the process, but there didn't seem to be wanton acts of terror for terror's sake--he removed those who were direct obstacles. Not NICE, but not anywhere near serial-killer evil territory. Chalkin was cruel for the sake of being cruel. He was utterly indifferent to human life--he gained nothing by hurting his own people, he just did it because he could. I'm not saying Fax was a good person, but he at least could have justified, if not excused, his actions. Chalkin was stupidly viscious for the sake of it.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 09:50 PM   #7
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@ GH


As a person, Fax.

Fax was an outright murderer and viscious conqueror who enoyed a good bloodbath where Chalkin was more the Gestapo kind of villain with a tendency for criminal negligence and Avril was the prototype of a greedy villain who murdered but not out of sheer delight, despite her having a definite streak of sadism.
You consider that better?
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Old Jan 27 2008, 09:51 PM   #8
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Kath: heh. In the sense of "Worst Written", Thella, with Avril and Kylara running neck in neck for second.

In the case of worst as a person/thing, since Thread and plauges are by nature not evil (they have no self-awareness and you cannot be evil without being self-aware), I would have to say Chalkin. Fax was a warlord--he did nasty things, but with a logical purpose (acquisition of land and property.) He killed people in the process, but there didn't seem to be wanton acts of terror for terror's sake--he removed those who were direct obstacles. Not NICE, but not anywhere near serial-killer evil territory. Chalkin was cruel for the sake of being cruel. He was utterly indifferent to human life--he gained nothing by hurting his own people, he just did it because he could. I'm not saying Fax was a good person, but he at least could have justified, if not excused, his actions. Chalkin was stupidly viscious for the sake of it.
I'll admit it has been a long time since I read DF, but I don't recall Fax being a stranger to casual cruelty.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 09:53 PM   #9
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Who, in your opinion, are the worst antagonists in Pern's history?

I must admit, I find choosing difficult. There are a lot of bad characters in the books, all with either extenuating circumstances or character flaws, and their stories have shaped Pern into what it is today, but which characters do you think are the worst?

-Personally speaking, I would have to have Avril Bitra on my list of worst antagonists. If not for her actions, then Pern's history might have been very different, right from the beginning.

-Fax would be next. Greed and cruelty made him into one of the most infamous of Pernese antagonists (throughout typing this I've been wondering whether or not to use the word 'villain' instead of 'antagonist'), and also one of the most ambitious. Also, without Fax, Lessa's situation would have been quite different...

-Next, I'd pick Chalkin. Again, his greed and dereliction of duty to his Hold, not to mention his cruelty, made him stand out as a particularly nasty individual in my opinion.

Sorry if this has already been discussed! I did a search and I looked through the threads in this section, but there are a lot of threads to look through!
I'll take a different bent on this and say Toric, in that he's "worst" from the standpoint of being the most capable. He's not wantonly cruel or brutal in the nature of some of the villains, nor quite as droolingly greedy, but he is dangerously cunning.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 10:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: Pern's worst?

Toric is his own worst enemy. He will bring about his own downfall. Kayrle was selfish, but I do not htink she was BAD. Not in the same since that the others were. Avril also only cared about herself, I think she enjoyed causeing pain. I would defently say she was next in line. Going from bottom up. I would have a hard time saying who was the worst between, Chalkin, Fax & Thella.
They all enjoyed being cruel, & causing pain. Thella I think liked killing people just for the sake of killing people. I am not sure the others enjoyed killing. I guess Thella would be worse. I am not sure her mind was there toward the end.
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Old Jan 28 2008, 12:34 AM   #11
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Default Re: Pern's worst?

Fax, for the aforementioned reasons.
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Old Jan 28 2008, 12:54 AM   #12
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Default Re: Pern's worst?

Don't forget our old 'friend' Lord Meron. You can't mention Kylara without mentioning him, in my mind. They are a duo who caused a lot of pain and anguish to so many people. And for him to continue to be so hateful on his death bed was horrid.
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Old Jan 28 2008, 03:38 AM   #13
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Default Re: Pern's worst?

Meron was another one of the names on my list of 'Pern's Worst' - especially for his part in the death of the queens and his refusal to name a successor, just to be difficult or to throw the Hold into chaos. Toric was also there on my list, being so capable and ambitious, and Thella started out as a promising antagonist, but personally I was a little disappointed in how she turned out.
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Old Jan 29 2008, 12:39 PM   #14
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Meron was another one of the names on my list of 'Pern's Worst' - especially for his part in the death of the queens and his refusal to name a successor, just to be difficult or to throw the Hold into chaos. Toric was also there on my list, being so capable and ambitious, and Thella started out as a promising antagonist, but personally I was a little disappointed in how she turned out.
I did love how Robinton dealt with Meron in choosing his successor. Showed how determined Robinton could be when necessary.

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Old Jan 29 2008, 02:35 PM   #15
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here's my list
Avril
Fax
Thella
Meron( I reuse to call him Lord)
Toric (just because he is acts like a creep)
I don't remember Chakin which book is he from
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Old Jan 29 2008, 03:23 PM   #16
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Chalkin featured in Dragonseye/Red Star Rising, Topaz.
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Old Jan 30 2008, 06:55 PM   #17
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Default Re: Pern's worst?

I personally love Thella...she was delightfully nasty all the way to the bone...and being crazy helped her a lot in making her even more nasty and vicious.

For truly evil I think I will have to go with Fax too, as he enjoyed being cruel to everyone he came in contact with. He was known not only as a mass murderer, but a sadistic tyrant, who enjoyed seeing people in fear.
Chalkin, was also evil...but mostly motivated by overwhelming greed and self preservation...along with a heaping helping of stupidity.
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Old Feb 1 2008, 10:32 AM   #18
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Default Re: Pern's worst?

Chalkin and Fax are about equal in my book. Both enjoyed cruelty for its own sake and the abuse of power. So did Meron, but he was a petty schemer in comparison with Chalkin and Fax.

Toric is ambitious and greedy, but I don't think he's cruel in the same way, I can't see him imprisoning people wholesale (in spite of trying to prevent Jaxom and Sharra's marriage - he did accept it in the end after Jaxom proved his worth) or keeping women prisoner in order to breed with as many of them as he can, by force if necessary. He will also alienate enough people with his grab for land that he'll bring about his own downfall.

Thella was evil with the standards of Pern, but since those are so skewed from a modern Western perspective, I find it impossible not to have at least some sympathy for her.

Avril Bitra is in a class of her own when it comes to female evildoers.
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Old Feb 1 2008, 05:53 PM   #19
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Toric was an interesting character. He wasn't really a bad guy to begin with but things that happened along the way caused him to become angry and moody and downright mean. In many ways he was very much like Kylara and Meron. I guess it could be said that they were selfish beings at heart and when things didn't go their way they sort of, well, overreacted.
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Old Feb 1 2008, 11:40 PM   #20
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I'm not sure that Toric is as bad as Meron. He is hard, but I do not htink he enjoys hurting people. He has let some settle & not cared if the were too stupid it have listened to what it takes to hold in southern. He has no use for stupid. I do not think it was ever said that he killed people just for fun. He is ambitions, but I do not think he is evil.
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Old Mar 2 2008, 01:55 AM   #21
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Mine would be Aramina during Dolphins of Pern. forgot ALL the issues she had during renegades, including running away and taking Jayge with her because she couldn't stand hearing dragons anymore, but pushes hard to have Readis be crammed into the life she decided he would have (including becoming a Holder dragonrider)
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Old Mar 3 2008, 12:24 AM   #22
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I can kinda understand where Aramina was coming from. She was a mother who did only wanted what was best for her son. If he had not been swimming with the dolphins than he would not have gotten the thorn in his foot. That is what she was thinking at the time. She did a lot of things wrong, but she was not a bad person. Some times mother make bad choices.
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Old Mar 3 2008, 10:29 AM   #23
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true, but it didn't seem like she acknowledged he might be a person making his own decisions, and mistakes until she drove him completely away nearly completely severing familial ties with her son.
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Old Oct 30 2013, 06:47 PM   #24
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Old Thread, a yummy snack, rest of the time a problem.

Avril Bitra and co.
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Old Nov 1 2013, 07:52 AM   #25
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Wow, it's been a LONG time!
OK, so, for me, Chalkin would be on top, and then Avril, followed by Fax. And, for me personaly, Tolocamp should also make it into the lists. He wasn't evil in a way the others were, but he did do many things during the plague that were unjust, especially given his status as a Lord. And his tretman of his children and dead wife are a story for itself.
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Old Nov 1 2013, 09:46 AM   #26
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Hmmm...

I think I'm going to have to change my vote to an antagonist of my own devising. Smart, ruthless, blind to his own flaws and utterly despicable...and everything he does is for the greater good of Pern.
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Old Nov 5 2013, 03:26 PM   #27
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Currently stationed at High Reaches?
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Old Nov 5 2013, 05:55 PM   #28
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Currently stationed at High Reaches?
That'd be the one. Just wait...

(Writing Vallenka leaves me feeling soiled. Writing Sh'vek...ever so slightly terrified.)
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Old Apr 9 2014, 04:23 PM   #29
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Fax and Chalkin are definitely pretty good villainous characters, and I really liked Thella as a villain too. Her eventual demise was the damage done to her own physical & mental states forcing her to disappear for a long time, before finally appearing on Jayge & Aramina's doorstep.

It was a good fight scene and far more intense and significant in my mind than the (second to) last Abominator in "Skies of Pern". (I can't recall his name, and no books at hand!) His ending was so anti-climatic and sudden, that I had to read the whole section again to be sure of what I actually read!

I think that the last Abominator, that weird skinny woman who contacted "Lord" Toric at Southern would have had another plot in the last proposed book "After the Fall", had Anne not gone between before writing it. I'd've loved to read that story!

One of Todd's books (well, co-authored with Anne) "Dragon's Fire" offered a truly sadistic young man named Tenim, and is a model for villains that I hesitate to bring into my role-playing sessions, because they are absolutely hard to catch, kill or guard against! I'd hate to write a villain like that, as it would be very hard to write your way out of the corner with a character like that.

One character, a Harper named Moran, came close to being a dastardly villain, and for a long time throughout the book (again "Dragon's Fire"), I wasn't sure which path he was going to go in; but his reasonings were sound, if not extremely misguided in watching and caring for, in his limited talents, for the children of the Shunned.
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Old Apr 10 2014, 12:52 AM   #30
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Not actively evil, but as far as most-disliked person... how about Yanus?

Or the "Mean Girls" in Dragonsinger?
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Old Apr 11 2014, 02:15 PM   #31
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After the Fall had a totally different and new story line. Not a continuation of any existing one than the general Pern history.
Funny that the subject comes up in the thread Pern's Worst, as the scenario really was Pern's and Anne's worst
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Old Apr 14 2014, 03:46 AM   #32
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You're such a tease, Hans!



*wants to know ALL the plot, not just how bad it was*
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Old Apr 16 2014, 02:36 PM   #33
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I don't want to know what the plot of "After the Fall" would have 'officially' been, as I'm having a great time writing out the stories in my own head.

Its bad enough that I've been tricked into writing fanfic for my RPG. The plots don't just write themselves, ya know!
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Old Aug 13 2014, 10:53 PM   #34
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Quote:
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Hmmm...

I think I'm going to have to change my vote to an antagonist of my own devising. Smart, ruthless, blind to his own flaws and utterly despicable...and everything he does is for the greater good of Pern.
And so brutal in the end he betrays his own dragon, after destroying him chasing his single minded obsession. Yep....he's top of my list.

As for canon...all the obvious ones have been stated, but what about Petiron? He has the same sort of blindness to his own flaws, and til after Merelan's death his world has a population of 1. Not Sh'vek-brutal, or Fax-brutal, but in his own way he was also absolutely cruel...it was just much more confined to his own family.
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Old Aug 14 2014, 06:05 PM   #35
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*twirls villainous moustache*

Thanks! I love the love-to-hate reaction.
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