Forked tongues on firelizards?

[Cavatica]

SPLIT FROM ANOTHER THREAD

Originally Posted by Weyrbrat

Ahh... I see where I've been confused. When I first read Pern, I didnt think of it being on another planet, and assumed wherries where some sort of bird like creature, with feathers. That being said, doesn't it mention somewhere that they have beaks? And what I mean is that the fire lizards might have at first been simply lizards with wings, as they look like, without other abilities. If this was true, the forked tongue would be possible.

Wherries ARE birdlike creatures. They're large -- around the size of turkeys, I believe -- and six-limbed, with "proto feathers" similar to what Archeopteryx would have had. But remember, birds evolved from saurians. It's entirely plausible for wherries and firelizards to have a similarly-shaped single ancestor from which they both split.

Todd Cameron Hamilton depicted them, in the DLG, as looking like this:



...though there's an artist on DeviantArt who did sort of an interesting interpretation I think I like and that may make more sense as a firelizard ancestor and not just a firelizard cousin. ("Proto feathers," which wherries have, PRECEDE true feathers -- they're less evolved than actual feathers. If firelizards come from wherries instead of just being related to them, then they would have just lost the proto feathers altogether.)

Anyway. Wherries are birds. Well, if not birds, exactly, then "avians," and yes, they've got beaks and such. I suspect the wherry/firelizard/tunnelsnake archosaur would have started off terrestrial, and then the wherries and tunnelsnakes would have come from intermediate ancestors who gained wings -- but not forked tongues. ;> (Useless in the air, anyway. They'd've probably gained excellent sight -- more advantageous from the air -- before they'd've gained excellent smell.)

[Emeraldrose]

The Tunnel Snakes are described on page 12 of Dragon Lover's Guide Turtle Like faces
Ungulate jaws that allowed them to swallow prey whole...the picture shows fangs and rows of teeth...no forked tongue...but page 29 describes dragonets (firelizards) as having a forked tongue...

[Weyrbrat]

Are we considering DLG as canon, as im not sure. In first fall they call the wherries "bargelike creatures". But couldn't the firelizards originally just be unwinged lizards?

[Hans]

I think we're going way off topic here, so I am making a cut in this thread as of Cavatica's post and create a new one about the forked tongues

[Ryuu]

Originally Posted by Weyrbrat

Are we considering DLG as canon, as im not sure. In first fall they call the wherries "bargelike creatures". But couldn't the firelizards originally just be unwinged lizards?

A lot more is canon in the DLG than not. Rather than everyone blanketly exclaiming that nothing in the DLG is canon, we should be picking it apart to separate what is and is not.

The fire-lizards are the direct ancestors to Pern's dragons--the primary changes Kity Ping did on them was to increase their size and adjusted their memory/inteligence ratio. There were also some minor changes she did to their hands to aid them with their larger bodies' take-off & landing, as well as the imposed her restrictions on golds for chewing fire stone.

But for the most part, DD indicated Ping left their overall design unchanged, which implies that the original natives also had forked tongues, as well as having facetted eyes, hard protruding eye ridges, horn-like nubs for their ears, neck and back ridges, soft suade-like hides, and forked tails.

Most native fauna on Pern should have six limbs, but how those limbs are developed and used depends upon their evolutionary niche. Wherries, tunnel-snakes, and fire-lizards all have common ancestors somewhere in the evolutionary path, but I wouldn't read too much into how close they're related...much like on Earth: birds, snakes, and humans all have a comon ancestor--but you might not be able to tell just from looking

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally Posted by Ryuu

A lot more is canon in the DLG than not. Rather than everyone blanketly exclaiming that nothing in the DLG is canon, we should be picking it apart to separate what is and is not.

I don't know when anyone has ever stated that there's nothing accurate in it. Mainly it's people advising against using parts of it in debates when the information is not present in the books. There are so many errors in it that while a lot of it can be verified, there's no way to tell what is or isn't true with the parts that are not mentioned in the books.

So personally, I prefer to steer clear of it entirely for use in arguments, because I can just use the books instead, which are more or less concrete.

But for the most part, DD indicated Ping left their overall design unchanged, which implies that the original natives also had forked tongues, as well as having facetted eyes, hard protruding eye ridges, horn-like nubs for their ears, neck and back ridges, soft suade-like hides, and forked tails.

Nope, they didn't have back ridges. Neck and tail ridges, but none on the back

[Cheryl]

Isn't there a picture of a firelizard in the DLG without a forked tongue? The text and images don't agree, and I see no reason why not to decide to take the image as more correct as it makes more sense.

[Emeraldrose]

I originally cited DLG about the tunnel snakes as not forked tongue and was surprised when I read the part about forked tongues in the description ....

but I was re reading Dragonsdawn and on page 96 in my copy (where Sorka and Sean had gone egg hunting with Pol, Tillek and Pietro) this paragraph caught my notice

If she could alter one thing about Duke it would be to give him speech. She had learned to interpret
his various noises accurately and was able to understand what other dragonets said to their owners,but she wished she could communicate with Duke in a common language. But someone had said that FORKED TONGUES could not manage speech

[evdelft]

If she could alter one thing about Duke it would be to give him speech. [...] But someone had said that FORKED TONGUES could not manage speech.

As far as I'm concerned, dragons don't need speech , but in case of a dragonet it could be useful. Anyway, if - as DD indicates - a dragonet (and therewith a dragon) had a forked tongue, what's the problem with it? I can't imagine whatever the problem could be, though I've read about 9 of the books by now.

For as far as my knowlegde of snakes (i.e. forked tongues) is, it doesn't hamper the way it eats nor does it have any other way it could affect it's way of living.

By the way, is there a thread about the facetted eyes? I kinda like this 'scientific' discussions.

[Emeraldrose]

If you look in Tthe Science of Pern section there is a thread called Eye Facets you would find of interest....

[ghost8772]

Originally Posted by evdelft

As far as I'm concerned, dragons don't need speech , but in case of a dragonet it could be useful. Anyway, if - as DD indicates - a dragonet (and therewith a dragon) had a forked tongue, what's the problem with it? I can't imagine whatever the problem could be, though I've read about 9 of the books by now.

For as far as my knowlegde of snakes (i.e. forked tongues) is, it doesn't hamper the way it eats nor does it have any other way it could affect it's way of living.

By the way, is there a thread about the facetted eyes? I kinda like this 'scientific' discussions.

Actually one of the other threads had mentioned that the forked tongue was for olfactory processes, smell and taste. but sensory input would use too much of brain for skull size and level of intelligence. I'm not sure which thread had it though.