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#1 |
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Do errors in the Pern books bother you? As previously mentioned, DLG was rife with errors, apparently both editions. It didn't bother me so much as make me a little sad that a better proofread didn't happen.
Also, I found it hard to swallow the idea of watchwher's "eating thread" in Todd's book. |
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#2 |
Stowaway
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I haven't read either copy of the DLG, so I can't help. If there's errors in books, I tend to simply correct them in my head.
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#3 |
Resident Poet
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Not really. I tend to ignore them and read on, unless the error is massive.
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#4 |
Aspiring Dragon Anatomist
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Depends on what sort. I misname, or doubled dragon name etc. doesn't get to me at all. Inconsistancies with dragon size and issues like that, they irk me a bit, but doesn't bother me that much. Blatant lapses of common sense, or continuity which are SO obvious, like with the whers, and them eating Thread, bother me to no end!
![]() DLG errors I just completely overlook, because it's more full of holes than a target practice board and it's useless getting upset over it. |
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#5 |
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According to Anne, Firelizards eat thread (ref Dragonquest) - so I assumed that Todd picked up on that idea, and expanded it - given that whers were made from the same genetic codes.
Accross the books there are many inconsistencies, and errors - I have loads listed on my site, and possible explinations (if any are possible). DLG was a good idea, and a is still a good book - BUT it could have been better. I find it strange that Anne let it be published with so many errors, and inconsistencies, but if you can look beyond them there are a lot of good things with in it. What was the question? Oh yes. I suppose they do, but I love the series, so I have learned to live with them |
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#6 | |
Brainship
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I think Dragonsdawn and the later books put it to rest that firelizards flame Thread and do not eat it. Surely eating an organism that consumes organic life would be a bit silly unless it was dead first (ie like dolphins do)? As for whers eating it ......... I'm not convinced! And as for errors, they do bug me, yes. Glaring, startling errors really do grate and do affect my reading enjoyment. Smaller errors such as typos and lines appearing in paragraphs (one of my editions of one book has that twice in once chapter) also annoy me because that is what copyeditors and proof-readers are for, but they don't affect the enjoyment as such. Just a quick "tsk" and away I go. |
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#7 | |
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We know from Dragonsdawn that fire-lizzards were tampered with, and that both Dragons and Whers were made from the same genetic mix. Whers were made to be very different to dragons (ref Dragonsblood). We know so little about Thread why is it impossible that it can be eaton? If the Whers were designed to do it, why shouldn't they be able to? Why would it be less dangerous for the dolphins and fish to eat? The science of Pern has never been, "spot on." The books are, what they are; Fiction. Best to read them that way. But that's just my opinion ![]() As for the errors, and contridictions, and continuity errors (of which there are many); none detract from the story. ![]() |
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#8 |
Dragonrider
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Bad errors-they grate
small errors my brain corrects! Having read a series of books where there were so many mistakes a character who was 12 in 1925 is 21 in 1940, the little peccadilloes here aren't too much of a problem- I haven't read Dblood yet though... |
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#9 | |
Brainship
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Taking information from Dragonsblood and using it as cannon is a risky business. There are a lot of people who would agree that there are a lot of problems with the statements Todd makes about Pern. I don't remember that book stating that whers were made intentionally to be different. Perhaps after Wind Blossom realised the positives of "the uglies" she has created then more are hatched to be that way on purpose, but they were definitely not originally made with any reason in mind. Dolphins and fish can eat Thread beause it drowns in water and so somehow death makes Thread innocuous. When it is in the air (where firelizards are attacking it) it is very much 'alive', and then it would be incredibly dangerous for something to jsut go "oooh lunch" and physically eat it. Presumably the oesophagi of firelizards and dragons have some kind of fire-proofing (unless the chemicals only react with free oxygen? How does firestone work with draconic stomachs?) so *maybe* that deters the harmful properties of Thread and stops it eating into their flesh. But that would mean that Thread wouldn't devour their teeth or any other part of them that would likely come into contact with the Thread (if a fire-lizard is flying at a downward-streaking Thread, there is going to be overspill and general nastiness). And if whers and fire-lizards*do* eat Thread and not flame it then why make dragons fire breathing? Why not just make them giant flying mouths? Just because something is fiction, doesn't mean that it can just make up basic rules. Anne has always described Pern as sci-fi and not fantasy - Pern operates within our Universe and under our universal rules and laws. Kylara may not have given her fire-lizard firestone. That doesn't mean she didn't find some or tell one of the lesser colours to get it for her. And even on a semantic level, she may not have used "eat" as in ingest. We say acid eats away metal, but it doesn't eat it in the way taht we would eat an apple. And finally, that is the only place in the main sequence of books where a fire-lizard is desribed as 'eating' Thread. I can't remember if that is in the same book where L'tol's dragon was described as being a green (which miraculously turns out to acutally have been a brown called Larth), but that kind of inconsistency (ie one that has a massive amount of information on the other side of it to disallow it as cannon) must be weeded out and, ideally, changed. |
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#10 |
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You get the impression that the whole "eating" thread was a boast, and exagerated to make it sound more impressive. -Besides if her queen had flamed, would Kylara have said so, esp. if she thought that it might loose her some respect.
As for the whole point about Pern operating within our universe-yep, ANne has got the down v well-with only 1 exception, phospine! which is so poisonous, that it means a rapid death. Whether, as this was in DF, she meant something else in that family-slightly less poisonous. I don't know. |
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#11 | |
Brainship
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Which, as you say, is bad. But if the phosphates are solidified in the rock and are somehow turned back into a gaseous form, would they ignite on contact with oxygen and therefore become non-toxic as they are burnt off? Then again, since this is a naturally-occurring part of the fire-lizard physiogonomy (I may have spelt that wrong), presumably they also evolved a very good way of dealing with the toxic side effects? Since phosphine is only toxic when oxygen is present, perhaps there is no oxygen in the stomach they use to churn the rock and belt out the flame? Hmmmmm. |
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#12 | |
Senior Member
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Wow. You do feel strongly about this. Ok, you're entitled to your own opinion on the matter, as am I. ![]() Taking a possition that only Pern stories you like can be considered "cannon" is a the true dangerous possition my friend. As a fan you have the luxery of choosing not to read any of the books if you so decide. But you should never critisize fans who do read all the books, or draw on them for reference. You may not like the book, and it may not fit in with how you see Pern, but that's your personal choice. ![]() Dragonsblood makes it very clear that the Whers were not accidents, but intentional, and were a part of Kitty Yungs overall plan for defending Pern, becasue there was no guarentee that the dragons would survive. The whers were a safe guard against that. And as for things not being able to eat thread: what about Tubbermans grubs? They eat thread that falls on the ground. How do they work? They're an Anne creation that has never been explained, and given there size they present a whole new series of problems. So if grubs can eat thread, why can't whers, or fire-lizzards? If it helps, in Dragonsdawn after Tubberman dies his notes are looked over, and one of the things that is made clear is that he has "implimented part of Kitty's plan" but what part no one knows, as Tubberman coded his notes, and Anne never explained it further. What we actually know about the dragons is very little. Let's face it, it took them 2,500 years to realise that they were telekenetic (Skies of Pern) - an ability they would have got from the fire-lizzard genetic mix. Can we actually state that we know all there is to know about either speices yet? Or is it possible that there are many things still unknown, and not fully understood, about these three alien speices (fire-lizzard, dragon, wher)? Finally, Kylara and her fire-lizzard; Kylara was a complete nyphomaniac, the women loved sex, and lots of it. I don't believe she would do anything to harm her chances of her fire-lizzard rising to mate. But yes, it has been established that gold fire-lizzards can use fire-stone without becoming infirtile. But then, Kylara wouldn't have known that. Regardless, the idea of whers operating differently to dragons is not such a big problem. Until Dragon's Kin we knew very little about them. ![]() It's all fiction, make believe, and not real. It's not supposed to conform to how the real universe works - that's the beauty of it. ![]() PS: when it comes to what is "cannon" for Pern and what's not, it's simple: If Anne says it's cannon, then it is. Last edited by Jayru; Jan 25 2006 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Change of info |
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#13 | |
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#14 |
The Contrary
Planetary Brain
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I either ignore them or mentally correct them. Though I've penned over Monarth where it should be Lioth in ATWoP.
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Thinking, understanding, reasoning, willing, call not these Soul! They are its actions, but they are not its essence. Akhenaton? (c. B.C. 1375) Egyptian King and Monotheist |
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#15 |
Master Archivist
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Although it would be nice to have less of the (obvious, silly, sometimes stupid) errors, I actually enjoy trying to correct them (we, being Anneli, Cheryl and I actually made lists for Anne when she realised Transworld was going to do a new typeset
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#16 |
Talent
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The big ones irk me, the smaller ones less so. However, that said, I'm sometimes surprised how Anne's stories have the power to hold my interest even when they're less than perfect. In retrospect I think Anne should've stopped writing Pern after AtWoP. I've only managed to read Skies and MHoP once each. And I won't touch anything co-written by Todd.
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#17 |
Aspiring Dragon Anatomist
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Ok, there's too much to quote, so I'll just say it here. Firelizards, nor whers can eat thread. I don't see how Todd could possibly think that's concievable. The ONLY way they could do it is if they were engineered in the same manner as the grubs, which I doubt. And as has been mentioned, if they could eat it, using flame would be redundant. We have NEVER seen a dragon eating thread.
Even if Kylara never gave her gold firestone PERSONALLY, they could still seek it out on their own. It's instinct. How else would firelizards flame before there were people around? Everything happened so fast, and since Kylara thought that the gold had never consumed firestone, in her frenzy it muct have seemed as if the firelizard were "eating" it. But the idea of that actually being plausible... why on earth would their mouths be impervious to thread, but the rest of them is completely vulnerable to attack? As for whers being INTENDED to be that way rather than a flub... this is Todd writing, not Anne. He's using his own ideas, and I in no way consider any of it to be valid. |
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#18 |
Stowaway
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I agree with you Spiff.
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#19 | |||||||
Brainship
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Gosh, and I apologise that my and Jayru's banter is quite intensely off-topic!!!! |
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#20 |
Senior Member
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- Gidget 2: My applogies if you found the phrase "my friend" patronising. I view all people as friends I have yet to get to know
![]() One of the things I think people forget is that it is ok and fine to hold your own views and opinion on any given subject. But there is a fine line between stating your view, and telling someone they're wrong because they see things differently. Ok, so some people would rather not include Todd's book as being a part of Pern's cannon story line, (regardless of what Anne has stated). That's there choice, and I have no problem with it ![]() ![]() I find comments like: "this is Todd writing, not Anne. He's using his own ideas, and I in no way consider any of it to be valid..." or "I won't touch anything co-written by Todd..." amusing. I haven't heard such arguments/statements since Gene Roddenberry died, and Paramount announced Deep Space Nine - which so many fans said would fail, because Gene hadn't had a hand in creating it. I approached Dragon's Kin and Dragonsblood with an open mind, and enjoyed both. Dragonsblood fit very well in with what Anne has created. It was clever. It was not the "bad" "awful" book that some people claimed it to be, quite the reverse I thought. It was different though, but then it would be - Anne didn't write it. The only real problem with Dragonsblood (aside from two inconsistencies) was the style of writing - but that's because I'm used to Anne's style. I will get used to Todd’s. I will not restrict my enjoyment of Pern to a narrow vision of it, or even a narrow version. Anne's vision (and version) has always been good enough for me, and very acceptable. Pern has grown and changed - which is what I love about the series. It isn't static. If Anne feels that Todd shares her vision of Pern, then that's good enough for me. It's her world after all, she knows it better then any of us can ever hope to. ![]() This business of thread eating: Pern is fiction. It's not real. It is science fiction (a dictonary definition of science-fiction). It is not meant to conform to real universe physics or facts, and nore does it have to. It is not meant to be scientifically accurate. It is not real. Pern does not exist, except in the imagination and writings of Anne and Todd. The very act of reading a sci-fi or fantasy book means you are suspending real world beliefs to enter and explore this fictional/fantasy world that has been created in someone’s imagination. Wher, fire-lizards and grubs being able to eat thread is no less fantastical then dragons being able to produce flame, or teleport, or move things with there minds - or even exist at all. The beauty of fiction (be it sci-fi or fantasy) is that you can do anything; it is not restrictive except by the boundaries of your own imagination. ![]() Why is a grub being able to eat thread more believable then a wher or fire-lizard being able to do so? ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() I agree with Hans, I get very nervous when there isn't an inconsistency within a Pern novel - it's something I expect, and I never have a problem working something out - as the "Arguments" section on Rukbat3 shows. Although some just can't be resolved, and have to be lived with. It has never yet spoiled these books for me though, and I doubt it ever will. ![]() PS: her full name is Kitti (or Kitty, depending on what edition you look at) Ping Yung ![]() Last edited by Jayru; Jan 26 2006 at 06:25 AM. Reason: Have you seen my spelling lately? |
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#21 | |
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Errors don't bother me. I usually don't notice them at first, and when I read about them on the web, I'm like: ah yes, well it's an error. It's very hard to write a book already, and with books like those of Pern with overlapping storylines, a mistake can easily slip in.
Also: Science Fiction is fiction which still follows the rules of this universe. The Pern books don't really do that, so they're not really SF. They're more a merge of SF and fantasy. Quote:
Or that the grubs can eat thread? How would they be able to? Maybe Wind Blossom found out how Tubberman did it with the grubs, and she implented the same trick on the whers. Offcourse it is Todd's writing. If he will continue the series, he can atleast use his own writing style. And the person knowing the most of Pern, even agreed with it. |
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#22 |
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Deski
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Do Errors Bother You?.....
Not really.......I can't remember my name half the time, so tend to forget names, etc and just "enjoy the ride!" ![]() |
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#23 |
Stowaway
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Lots of conflicting opinions here isn't there?
But I'm with Jayru on this one. |
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#24 |
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Personally, I put as much stock in Todd's interpretation of Pern as I do in Brian Herbert's treatment of the Dune universe.
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#25 | |||||||
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And btw, the felines were engineered to hunt the larger tunnel-snakes, not defend against thread. Quote:
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#26 | |
Aspiring Dragon Anatomist
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But Windblossom couldn't have implemented Tubberman's grub project because the whers were engineered before the grubs. Unless she did some whacky testing afterwards, but it still doesn't make sense that if she knew of a way to make the whers/dragons threadproof, that she would use it with ALL of them on their WHOLE bodies rather than only whers and only in their mouths and throat. As for Todd's writing, I actually liked his writing style, it wasn't bad. It wasn't the style in which it was written that bothered me, as EVERY writer has a different style, it was just the content. |
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#27 |
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Well, it seems the lines in the sand have been firmly drawn… Ok, well as long as everyone remembers that it’s just all personal opinion, that’s fine and dandy.
![]() It would be very easy to reply to many of the above comments, and come up with counter-point after counter-point, but the end result will be the same – no one is going to change how they see Pern. I will never accept sci-fi as being something so ridged that it has to be based on “real world” physics. Star Wars is sci-fi – just how much of that can be said to be based on real world physics? To me science-fiction, fantasy, speculative fiction, science fantasy, fiction and all the rest are what they are; labels we stick on something in order to place an absolute definition on it. As most of you know, I have a problem with that idea – in terms of Pern, as I don’t believe it can be defined in strict terms. It is what it is – a bloody good read (IMOO). Reading any sci-fi/fantasy/spec-fi/sci-fan/whatever book is always going to be about getting away from reality for me. It’s escapism – on a pure level. I don’t require the books I read to hold up well under scientific scrutiny, or for the matter I don’t over analyse them. For me, doing any of that would spoil my enjoyment of the book. Continuity is always welcome, and as most of us already know the Pern Saga has its fair share of errors and continuity problems. I’m enough of an anorak that I can spot them and list them – as I have done on my site. But I’m enough of a fan that I really don’t give that much of a brass monkey about them, or need to re-write the pages of the books. The errors that exist are genuine ones, that – let’s face it, have cropped up because Pern is anything but simple. 16 (soon to be 17) novels, 1 novella, and 11 short-stories is no small feat for a literary series, and I’m not surprised that there are errors and small continuity problems between the Pern stories. Anne has written more then just Pern, 50 plus books (not counting the co-authored ones), and numerous short-stories. Pern is a small part of her written gift to us. As fans we all have the choice of what we read, and what we don’t read. I have not read all of Anne’s works, and I have not enjoyed all of Anne’s books. The majority, yes, I have enjoyed, and for the most part I own copies of her books that I like. Pern has always held a special place in my heart – for many reason, all personal of course (and way to numerous to list here, and bore you with). There were only six novels when I started reading Pern, and I was hooked after I read the first. I suppose you could say I grew up reading them, and at that time there was no handy internet to discuss what I thought about them. I had to make do with the friend at school who introduced me to them. I am two decades older now (and the rest ![]() ![]() I can respect that some people have problems with all the changes that have taken place within the Pern books, and the many changes of direction that have happened. If they choose not to read all the books, that’s ok. It’s there choice at the end of the day. If some of them choose to “exclude” books from what they consider to be “cannon” for Pern, that too is ok. At the end of the day it is there personal choice. But there personal choice should not dictate how the rest of us see Pern, or even talk about it. I was truly gob-smacked to see someone state; “taking information from Dragonsblood and using it as cannon is a risky business…” – I can’t actually see what the risk is – unless there is a Pern-fan based mafia that I need to be worried about ![]() ![]() It’s ok to hold strong personal views and personal opinions, but it’s dangerous to forget that they are just that - personal opinions and personal views. The world would be a very boring and dull place if we all held the same opinion and thought the same way. We must never, ever, forget to treat each other with respect, and it can be easy to lose sight of that sometimes. A good debate is one thing, but this has crossed a line – and I played a not so small part in that. For that I am truly sorry to you all. ![]() Last edited by Jayru; Jan 27 2006 at 09:41 AM. Reason: Have you seen my spelling lately? |
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#28 |
Junior Weyrwoman
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It annoys me to a degree. Inconsistencies are vexing, too.
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#29 | |
Brainship
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Did I cross a line? Was I disrespectful to you, Jayru, or to anybody else? Because if you feel that I did then I apologise. As far as I was concerned, we were/are having a darn good debate! It's actually really good to discuss and debate things without getting into childish insults or devolving into personal territory. I was/am enjoying this whole thing and it's really rather good that we seem so diammetrically opposed on the issues we have brought up - agreeing to disagree is no small thing for somebody to do. Maybe we should have moved into a brand new Thread (which you could eat and I could flame ![]() ![]() But thank you, Jayru (and the others who helped us hijack this Thread LOL), for a really good discussion!!!!!! And I look forward to chatting to you again soon! |
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#30 | |
Evil Gold Fiend Dragon
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But for the dragons (which Ping sacrificed long-term memory for boosting the short-term intellect) and of course, people (who have hard times telling people of different races within our own species apart, much less distinguishing the dangerous from non-leathal guts of an alien organism) just flame it all and be done with it. Since the Thread produces an enzyme that desolves and digests organic material, grubs would have to produce a counter-enzyme to neutralize it. |
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#31 | |
Aspiring Dragon Anatomist
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#32 | |
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#33 | |
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Like perhaps the difference between eating a ****load of candybars or a four-course meal while engaged in battle.... ![]() |
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#34 |
Stowaway
Senior Apprentice
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wherever is home right now.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: Something, always something...
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Hmm... I'm just going to stay open-minded about all this.
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#35 |
Inactive
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Belgium
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern
Now Reading: Ravnica
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Maybe, if you wonder why he wrote that and what his explanation is for it, you could ask him? Send him an e-mail or ask him when/if you see him in real life? We can only speculate of the why's here, as many things in the Pern universe aren't completely explained.
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#36 |
Stowaway
Senior Apprentice
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wherever is home right now.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: Something, always something...
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Very true.
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#37 |
Inactive
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern Series
Now Reading: A Gift of Dragons
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Hello, I'm a newb.
![]() My only objection so far in reading the series is Anne's continual use of the word "adroitly". |
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#38 |
Aspiring Dragon Anatomist
![]() Join Date: Mar 2005
Gender: M
Fan of: PERN!!!
Now Reading: Lord of the Rings
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Hmm, I haven't noticed that... but another one of her dominant descriptive words is "wry"
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#39 |
Stowaway
Senior Apprentice
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wherever is home right now.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: Something, always something...
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What does that mean?
Hi Roo! |
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#40 |
Resident Poet
Eighth Hrruban Speaker
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: northeast New South Wales
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern & Freedom
Now Reading: The Umbrella Club / David Brooks
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I need a newbie:
who will do to receive a poem? I know, Roo! G'day Roo! |
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