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Old Dec 24 2008, 06:00 PM   #1
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Default Canon Questions Topic (FFic)

I'm working a Fic, and I'd like to keep it fairly canonical. To that effect, I have a few questions (two so far, and I'll post more here as needed):

Question #1: Already asked and answered. Thanks again, Domini!
Question #2: What's the maximum range canonically that a T-4 telekinetic could port him- or her self and possibly one or two other people (so three adults maximum)? Same question for an "average" T-1.

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Old Dec 24 2008, 07:01 PM   #2
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A T-4 can port themselves from Callisto to Earth most definitely. Afra I believe did it a few times; he was the only one on Callisto aside from the Rowan who could. He would have been able to port a few people along too, the mass of a few people was well within his range.

Larak was also a T-4, and I get the impression that with a generator he could port himself to wherever his generator-aided telepathic range could go. Afra and Larak had a conversation between themselves with Afra on Iota Aurigae and I think Larak on Procyon. Without the aid of Damia or another Prime. (Although Jeff might have poked his head in at one point.) Which is a few light years. So I think either one of them (Afra was a T-3 at this time, it was just before Sodan killed Larak and nearly killed Afra) could, if pressed, teleport this distance (I don't recall; did Larak 'port himself to Iota Aurigae, or did Damia do it?) but at these sorts of distances they would be right on the edge of their abilities and they would probably be reluctant to 'port other people, and most definitely would not 'port live cargo during the course of their duties--the Prime would do it. But if an emergency arose, or they trusted themselves to get themselves somewhere, Talents of Larak's and Afra's and probably Gollee Gren's calibre could 'port themselves around several of the core Human planets without any external aid other than the generators.

If we look at Afra's range as a T-4, he could pretty much telepathically reach to any of the planets in the Nine Star League *except* Deneb (and with good reason, since Deneb is a few *hundred* light years farther away if you look it up.) In the "modern" Talent universe, that would be all the core Human settlements except Deneb. A T-4 wouldn't be able to reach the Mrdini planets unless they were already in that area (working on Clarf, for example). And if they were working on Clarf they'd have issues reaching Human space.

As for a T-1, a Prime...with a generator behind them, they can go anywhere. Without generator they can reach very very far too, but it consumes much more personal power and Jeff gets all ticked at Thian for doing an "unpowered" telepathic send to Earth when Thian is on one of the Navy ships, because the Navy ships are so extraordinarily far from human space. So there is concern for the really long reaches that the Prime performing them might be harmed; whether this is just out of caution because "Prime" and "T-1" is sort of a flexible term and they might discover a Prime's actual hard limits the hurty, killing-way with an unpowered send, I don't know. If your Primes are doing powered sends with a generator, though, they have no limit range-wise as long as the generator is up to the task. Mass-wise they start needing aid if it gets too big; they had a handful of Primes in gestault together when they 'ported the Hiver spheres around. But something "relatively" small could be 'ported anywhere they could reach telepathically.
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Old Dec 25 2008, 02:54 AM   #3
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Afra was perfectly capable of 'porting manned personnel carriers from Callisto to Earth, although I'm not certain if they were one-man carriers or not (Damia). So I'd say that for most T-4s the limit for 'porting people or equivalent masses would be within one solar system.

A Prime in gestalt would be able to 'port personnel carriers from one side of the inhabited galaxy to the other, as has been shown numerous times in the books. Assistance from lower Talents seems to be necessary with huge warships and big daddy ore drones from Deneb (farthest from the rest of the League), although they're often used to save the Prime's strength.
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Old Dec 25 2008, 03:30 AM   #4
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Thanks guys, but that says nothing about unpowered sends, which is what I was really interested in for the T-4 rating.
I want go a somewhat different route with Tyra than I mentioned, Domini -- which is why I'm asking the question.

Oh, and as an aside: Domini, I think I've found in-book examples of the two 'Wild Talents' we discussed in PM.

-->Wouldn't a Mundane with natural shielding (or weaker shielding plus skullcap) too dense for even a Prime to penetrate qualify as 'War Fortress Shielding?' Notable examples would be Rhyssa Owen's husband (forgot his name), Captain/Admiral Ashiant from DC/LP/TTATH, and that Admiral buddy of Peter Redinger I's (not so certain on the last)
-->In the first few chapters of Pegasus in Space, Peter bumps into that Talent-phobic bitch on the space station -- and with the contact, he briefly gains access to her mind. If I'm not mistaken, he gestalts with the station's generator to punch through that damned skullcap of hers again to get the password needed to stop her mutiny. Wouldn't that qualify as the 'Shield Buster' Wild Talent we discussed?

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Old Dec 25 2008, 08:57 AM   #5
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Unpowered, I doubt a T-4 would be able to lift much more than his or her own mass on a single planet. T-4s don't do unpowered 'ports, which is why your question is impossible to answer from a canon POV.
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Old Dec 25 2008, 12:51 PM   #6
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Unpowered, I doubt a T-4 would be able to lift much more than his or her own mass on a single planet.
T-4's get that much energy from a gestalt? Or do you mean a T-4 could probably 'port him- or herself anywhere on a given planet?

And I would think that self-powered 'ports would prove really, really useful for a Telekenetic Security Talent.

Self-powered 'porting can be used with alleged criminals who resist arrest -- more so with mundanes than other Talents -- in various useful ways. More importantly, the Prime would have access to full (or at least more) generator output, as at least one of the Security Talents would 'path and 'port without leeching power form the Station generators -- from his or her perspective, more power == better. Efficiency would also increase slightly.

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T-4s don't do unpowered 'ports, which is why your question is impossible to answer from a canon POV.
We also don't get many POVs from Tower Security Talents and LEO types, either, granath.

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Originally Posted by Domini
Security - We actually did run into these on Earth Tower, but it's uncertain if they're considered part of a Tower crew, or unique to Earth Tower. I'd think you'd have at least one Security Officer on main planetary Towers, and more at places like Earth Tower. They would ideally be a full Telepath/Empath/Telekinetic (read minds, pick up suspicious feelings, and kinetically remove bombs and stuff if necessary), but at a minimum a strongish Telepath.
I'm in perfect agreement so far.


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Originally Posted by Domini
(They'll still need to rely on 2IC and/or Prime to probe suspicious higher Talents, but that's rare, and in cases like that I think the 2IC and Prime would want to be involved.)
...Unless the lower rated Security/LEO Talent had a usefully freaky Wild Talent....

And as for the Prime / Twic / LEO Chief involvement, the sufficiently protected lower Talent could always forward the information to whoever else they thought needed it in real time (a la the Rowan / Redinger conversations the Rowan forwards to Afra in Damia), freeing up higher Ratings to do other things.


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Originally Posted by Domini
You probably get a lot of the T-5 - T-2 Tower Talent set in these positions who aren't all that enthused by shifting cargo all day every day, and want to do something more "interesting". If you're prone to scanning people's minds as a Telepath, a Security Talent is a good position for you...channel that urge into something productive, heh.
Perfect agreement here as well.

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Old Dec 25 2008, 01:48 PM   #7
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I meant the second. When the Rowan was in training and pretending to be a T-4, she had to act like she wasn't able to 'port herself on Altair yet, because of her age. I think some of the Talents she later discovered on Deneb were about T-4s, but they used gestalt to 'port themselves about the planet.
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Old Dec 25 2008, 02:15 PM   #8
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Thanks, you two.

It probably will be a long while before I get the first chapter finished -- I swear, my personal Muse is either a sadistic bitch or she gets way to many vacations....
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Old Dec 25 2008, 06:53 PM   #9
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Heh, I didn't go into detail about unpowered sends because your original question didn't specifically ask about unpowered sends, just ranges in general.

Granath is correct, we don't see many sub-Primes doing unpowered stuff other than short-range telepathy. So it's hard to say. Going on what Granath said, I would suspect there is a trained culture for non-Primes to *never* do unpowered teleports. When you're a young high-Talent, your exact T-rating seems to be more in flux...you don't really know where your Talent will shake out in the end, and you don't want to endanger it by pressing it too early...or in other words, "once a Prime, always a Prime", so while any and all of Afra and Damia's kids could 'port willy nilly as teens because it's obvious that they're all Primes, a non-Prime high talent would be much more cautious.

I've also a pet theory that Afra jumping from T-4 in the books to T-2 was partly because his rating as T-4 was incorrect, and the conservative culture of Capella combined with trained warnings that high-but-not-Prime Talents like him would get caused him to under-utilize his Talent while growing up there.

But back to the topic, I also agree that a T-4 would never do an un-powered 'port off of planet. They might do self-ports around the planet's surface without gestault, but it would be rare, even if within their ability.

Regarding a security talent not wishing to use the main generator's power...Talents use generators. That's the big discovery that Peter I made, which catalyzed the formation of the FT&T we see "today". And the energy used to power those generators has never shown to be a chokepoint, or a resource that needs to be rationed. If the Talent wasn't authorized to use the same generators the Prime uses, the FT&T would provide an auxiliary generator that other Talents can tap, at least for the planetary Towers. (Callisto, again, would be different due to the lack of a native population, but then when is it NOT different?) The only sort of Talent I see that habitually doesn't use the generators provided is either too stupid or too arrogant to live, and will probably burn themselves doing something silly some day.

Quote:
-->Wouldn't a Mundane with natural shielding (or weaker shielding plus skullcap) too dense for even a Prime to penetrate qualify as 'War Fortress Shielding?' Notable examples would be Rhyssa Owen's husband (forgot his name), Captain/Admiral Ashiant from DC/LP/TTATH, and that Admiral buddy of Peter Redinger I's (not so certain on the last)
In non-Talents such as Owen's husband and Ashiant I get the impression that the shield is almost of a...different nature, than the shields a telepath has. It doesn't work like the shields of a true telepath; the person has no control over it at all, and it encapsulates their entire mind, both "private" and "public". I get the impression that this type of shield may very well be un-breakable for a Prime, unlike the "war fortress" shielding I gave Afra in my fanfic Sackcloth and Ashes which is mostly unbreakable because they don't want to damage Afra by forcing past it.

I don't recall any examples of a non-Talent that had "weaker shielding". They either had a natural shield or did not. And Telepaths had shielding according to a combination of their strength and skill.

So in my mind at least, these types of shielding that the two non-Talent characters had are different from what I worked with. But AMC doesn't actually ever say; Rhyssa likely didn't have the oomph (or desire) to get past her husband's shields, and Jeff Raven would never have occasion to truely test Ashian's shields because they were pretty much allies and forcing himself past them would get the FT&T into big doo-doo.

Quote:
-->In the first few chapters of Pegasus in Space, Peter bumps into that Talent-phobic bitch on the space station -- and with the contact, he briefly gains access to her mind. If I'm not mistaken, he gestalts with the station's generator to punch through that damned skullcap of hers again to get the password needed to stop her mutiny. Wouldn't that qualify as the 'Shield Buster' Wild Talent we discussed?
I don't know. Out of all the Talent books, I'm weakest on Pegasus in Space, since I only read it once, and I read it too fast at that. I don't even remember this scene.

That said, if he did gestault through a skullcap rather than a true shield, I don't see her as being in danger from it, because it's not *herself* providing the shield, but the skullcap. So under the skullcap her mind would have as little resistance as any other non-Telepath's.

Essentially, I see 3 types of shielding...skullcap, "natural", and Talented. I would think a skullcap shield is get-around-able without harm to the one wearing it; the telepath just has to circumvent a piece of unliving metal; the mind below is probably un-Talented. I see the "natural" shield "non-Talents" sport as something very dense that is very possibly un-breakable even by a Prime in full gestault; I see this shield as being a sort of wild Talent operating on a different wavelength, almost. And as for a Telepath's shields...those are all operating on the same "wavelength"...they're made by the same "sort" of Talent that other Telepaths have, so I see the strength of those varying hugely depending on who is shielding, and who is trying to peek behind the shields. But these are just my interpretations of things.
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Old Dec 26 2008, 04:19 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
Heh, I didn't go into detail about unpowered sends because your original question didn't specifically ask about unpowered sends, just ranges in general.
Conceded.


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
Granath is correct, we don't see many sub-Primes doing unpowered stuff other than short-range telepathy. So it's hard to say. Going on what Granath said, I would suspect there is a trained culture for non-Primes to *never* do unpowered teleports. When you're a young high-Talent, your exact T-rating seems to be more in flux...you don't really know where your Talent will shake out in the end, and you don't want to endanger it by pressing it too early...or in other words, "once a Prime, always a Prime", so while any and all of Afra and Damia's kids could 'port willy nilly as teens because it's obvious that they're all Primes, a non-Prime high talent would be much more cautious.
And if the non-Prime wasn't indoctrinated into this mentality due to having to learn control on their own? Formalized instruction often inhibits creativity, after all....

The T-4 in question's backstory involves being raised by Talent-phobic parents who consider Talent a Satanic curse. Talent emerges, she runs away from home, learns control out on the streets over the course of a year or three, and a trained area-effect Talent randomly stumbles across the self-trained one around her coming-of-age.

My self-trained talent wouldn't have had much access to generator power (drawing conspicuously on the power grid would get her caught), so he or she would be more-or-less fine without it -- hey, the wheel ain't broke... so why fix it?

She's also so broken and her odds are so poor that nobody thinks she can make anything of herself -- but she manages to show everyone what a mistake they made writing her off.

There's actually a scene vaguely playing through my mind of this Talent meeting up with her parents at some point after she's been discovered and has reintegrated into society....


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
I've also a pet theory that Afra jumping from T-4 in the books to T-2 was partly because his rating as T-4 was incorrect, and the conservative culture of Capella combined with trained warnings that high-but-not-Prime Talents like him would get caused him to under-utilize his Talent while growing up there.
Great minds think alike, obviously.


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
But back to the topic, I also agree that a T-4 would never do an un-powered 'port off of planet. They might do self-ports around the planet's surface without gestault, but it would be rare, even if within their ability.
You're assuming Afra-clone, and I'm assuming weakened Jeff-clone, Dom.


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Regarding a security talent not wishing to use the main generator's power...Talents use generators. That's the big discovery that Peter I made, which catalyzed the formation of the FT&T we see "today". And the energy used to power those generators has never shown to be a chokepoint, or a resource that needs to be rationed. If the Talent wasn't authorized to use the same generators the Prime uses, the FT&T would provide an auxiliary generator that other Talents can tap, at least for the planetary Towers. (Callisto, again, would be different due to the lack of a native population, but then when is it NOT different?) The only sort of Talent I see that habitually doesn't use the generators provided is either too stupid or too arrogant to live, and will probably burn themselves doing something silly some day.
... but my self-taught Talent wouldn't have grown into their power with them, and could easily be reluctant to rely on them much.

Particularly crazy thought alert: If a Talent can tap a gesalt and make use of the extra energy in real-time, what is stopping that same Talent tapping the gesalt intermittently and using it to replenish his or her strength -- much like some druids and magic users can supposedly draw power from the surrounding environment to replenish and/or fortify their own?


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
In non-Talents such as Owen's husband and Ashiant I get the impression that the shield is almost of a...different nature, than the shields a telepath has. It doesn't work like the shields of a true telepath; the person has no control over it at all, and it encapsulates their entire mind, both "private" and "public".
Umm, in Damia's Children, when Isthian first meets Ashiant he lightly brushes Ashiant's mind just outside the Captain's office, mentally remarking that the Captain "has his shield tightly in place for the meeting". Thian gets nothing useful, which obviously implies that a mundane with both sufficient discipline and natural shielding can hide things from a searching Prime by simply wiping it from their public mind.

Early on in the conversation, Thian compliments him on having a tight natural shield (which implies there are natural shields he is capable of breaking), admits that he can't break Ashiant's and that he accessed Ashiant's public mind -- which is not a breach of Talent ethics -- and apologized for his utilitarian disregard of Naval discipline.

Ashiant tells him not to worry about it, as he acted properly; there are times when the forbidden is not only permissible, but the only moral course of action (ok, last one is heavily paraphrased).


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
I get the impression that this type of shield may very well be un-breakable for a Prime, unlike the "war fortress" shielding I gave Afra in my fanfic Sackcloth and Ashes which is mostly unbreakable because they don't want to damage Afra by forcing past it.
Agreed, agreed.
I've latched onto Quantuum Tunnelling as a potential mechanic for the character in question's Wild Talents.
Note: From the way intrusive use of Talent (probes, modifications) is depicted, the likely model IMO involves 'carrier waves'; likewise, the way defensive use of Talent (shields, parrying) is depicted, the "best" model IMO is "finite potential barrier."

Quote:
Wild Talents: War Fortress Shielding: if Jeff- or Rowan-strength Talent tried to read her at full power, they couldn't unless she wanted them to -- even with gestalt. Her shielding is a system of two barriers (as opposed to the normal barrier), one inside the other with a slight gap. The barriers can be modulated independently of each other, reducing the probability of quantum tunneling for incoming carrier waves to literal zero.
Shield Buster: Opposite idea of War Fortress Shielding -- this time, the 'frequency' of the outgoing carrier wave is modulated, manipulating the probability of the wave quantum tunneling through a specific Talent's shielding into certainty.

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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
So in my mind at least, these types of shielding that the two non-Talent characters had are different from what I worked with. But AMC doesn't actually ever say; Rhyssa likely didn't have the oomph (or desire) to get past her husband's shields, and Jeff Raven would never have occasion to truely test Ashian's shields because they were pretty much allies and forcing himself past them would get the FT&T into big doo-doo.
Rhyssa, I'll give you.
Ashiant, on the other hand, I won't grant you the benefit of the doubt. Thian specifically states that he can't punch through Ashiant's shield. Actually, at one point, Thian wishes he could send Ashiant a telepathic message, and whines and bitches a bit internally when he remembers that's not an option...


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
I don't know. Out of all the Talent books, I'm weakest on Pegasus in Space, since I only read it once, and I read it too fast at that. I don't even remember this scene.
Well, I do remember this scene.

While I admit I might be somewhat mistaken, I'm pretty sure I'm not.


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
That said, if he did gestault through a skullcap rather than a true shield, I don't see her as being in danger from it, because it's not *herself* providing the shield, but the skullcap. So under the skullcap her mind would have as little resistance as any other non-Telepath's.
The impression that I got was that all three were essentially the same, other than a Talent proper having shields fairly conducive to 'pathing, and the others not as conducive to 'pathing.

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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
Essentially, I see 3 types of shielding...skullcap, "natural", and Talented. I would think a skullcap shield is get-around-able without harm to the one wearing it; the telepath just has to circumvent a piece of unliving metal; the mind below is probably un-Talented. I see the "natural" shield "non-Talents" sport as something very dense that is very possibly un-breakable even by a Prime in full gestault; I see this shield as being a sort of wild Talent operating on a different wavelength, almost. And as for a Telepath's shields...those are all operating on the same "wavelength"...they're made by the same "sort" of Talent that other Telepaths have, so I see the strength of those varying hugely depending on who is shielding, and who is trying to peek behind the shields. But these are just my interpretations of things.
From what I remember, a skullcap simulates a natural shield -- making them for most intents and purposes interchangeable.

Telepathy and Talent shielding, I see as being much more individualized -- each Talent operates on different their own individual "frequency". This model simply and neatly allows Talents to selectively shield against one another and facilitates mental recognition -- a Talent's "frequency" acts as a sort of "parapsychic fingerprint" identifying him- or herself to other Talents.

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Old Dec 26 2008, 05:30 AM   #11
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I'm not sure Thian conceded Ashiant's shield was unbreakable, just that it would be an unforgivable breach of Talent etiquette to attempt it. In the midst of battle Thian heard random comments which could have come from any mind on the bridge, including Ashiant's since the intensity of battle would, according to Thian, allow Ashiant to slip the shield a bit. It also implies that Ashiant was a latent Talent, able to broadcast.

The non-Talent with the truly thick shield was Admiral del Falco on Phobos Moon Base, the guy with the basilisk gaze who hated both Talents and 'Dinis. Thian doubted even Jeff or the Rowan could break his shields if they tried.

Talent should be able to gestalt with any electromagnetic field, it doesn't have to be a generator or, say, strip lighting. Heh, even a car battery might do in a pinch if it was connected to a circuit. I have a feeling amps are more important than volts here. This is pure speculation, however. And Talents might prefer AC to DC, even if they could gestalt with both (although the generators of power stations produce DC, it's converted to AC later).

Who knows what a T-4 who hasn't been inhibited by training might achieve? However, you asked for canon input, and such doesn't exist. So if you want to have your T-4 'port about the planet without using gestalt, go right ahead. But it won't be compatible with what we know about canon. However, I seriously doubt your character would be able to 'port anything heavier than herself without gestalt, even as an adult. Or at the very least, she'd have to be higher than a T-4!
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Old Dec 26 2008, 07:35 AM   #12
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My self-trained talent wouldn't have had much access to generator power (drawing conspicuously on the power grid would get her caught), so he or she would be more-or-less fine without it -- hey, the wheel ain't broke... so why fix it?
That's fine, and that works from a character-standpoint, but a consequence may be that in the FT&T proper if she ends up as a security Talent she might get a lot of flak for using her personal power and tiring herself out. Jeff yells at his Primes for doing stuff like that all the time (so does Reidinger I think), and they are considered to be the strongest Talents in the FT&T. I would think that the pressure would be even worse on a non-Prime Talent.

But yeah. That's just writing details you'd have to work out as a writer.

Quote:
You're assuming Afra-clone, and I'm assuming weakened Jeff-clone, Dom.
I'm actually not assuming Afra-clone here; I am also thinking of Clancy, Gollee Gren, and the way that the non-Primes on Altair raised and taught the Rowan. Also, Goswina's perceptions of her own Talents...granted, she was a few levels below her brother, and yes, she's Capellan. But I'm sort of...hm, taking the average in my mind.

Jeff is indeed an outlier, but I get the impression that the Deneb Talents were protected from harm by obscurity. IE, one of the issues in Damia was that Damia discovered how to teleport early. She was just learning too many "tricks" by living in such a high-Talent environment (and due to other factors such as being alone in her age group). I also get the impression that other than Jeff, the Deneb Talents--including his mother--under-performed grossly. I think Isthia could have been a Prime. So I see them 'porting around even *less* for the most part, just because nobody's ever shown them how to teleport. (At least, early in the series) And they're too busy being colonists. The one exception here would be during the Hiver bombing; I see any potential telekinetics who *could* 'port spontaneously learning how, haha. Nothing like being in fear of your life to learn a new skill...and we know that Talent is prone to emerging under pressure...

Quote:
Particularly crazy thought alert: If a Talent can tap a gesalt and make use of the extra energy in real-time, what is stopping that same Talent tapping the gesalt intermittently and using it to replenish his or her strength -- much like some druids and magic users can supposedly draw power from the surrounding environment to replenish and/or fortify their own?
Well, you do see Rowan (or was it Afra?) replenishing the other's power in one scene in either The Rowan or Damia. That being said...didn't Peter I have issues with the body-brace thing that tried to directly simulate his body's muscles or something? It was "short circuting" him? I get the impression that while electrical energy can be harnessed to aid in telepathic strength and range, and for telekinetic purposes, it's not 100% compatible with running a human body. Of course, nothing *contradicts* the possibility of having someone able to tap into this energy to run themselves, but we never see a Talent re-energizing from a generator; when they get low on energy, if another Talent doesn't walk over and give them a talent-to-talent zap, they chow down on high-carbohydrate things that their digestive system can quickly break down into the appropriate sugars and stuff. Fruits, juices. Probably candy bars.

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Umm, in Damia's Children, when Isthian first meets Ashiant he lightly brushes Ashiant's mind just outside the Captain's office, mentally remarking that the Captain "has his shield tightly in place for the meeting". Thian gets nothing useful, which obviously implies that a mundane with both sufficient discipline and natural shielding can hide things from a searching Prime by simply wiping it from their public mind.

Early on in the conversation, Thian compliments him on having a tight natural shield (which implies there are natural shields he is capable of breaking), admits that he can't break Ashiant's and that he accessed Ashiant's public mind -- which is not a breach of Talent ethics -- and apologized for his utilitarian disregard of Naval discipline.
I don't remember this, but Granath elaborates a bit on what you say here. I would say, based on what you both say and not being able at the moment to go back and read my books, that AMC might indeed be hinting then that he's a latent Talent. If that's the case, I would think his shields would be Telepath-style, and thus breakable, and not of the type that Rhyssa's husband had. (I don't remember Granath's example of Falco either. I should probably re-read when I can.)

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From what I remember, a skullcap simulates a natural shield -- making them for most intents and purposes interchangeable.
I'd have to disagree here. I get the impression that certain alloys of metal stop a Talent cold, or at least give them interesting difficulties in getting through. Wasn't the trick that they used to blow up the Hiver sphere was finding a gun-port? Basically a hole in the outer metal shell that let the Talents inside? Or am I mis-remembering? And also there's the distasteful response Talents have to Hiver metal. And also, Brian and Afra working on a way to shield the Rowan's quarters to stem telepathic infantile babble from eminating into the rest of the station. I was thinking metal paneling or something being installed, although it's true that they don't really specify. But I'm running on the idea that skullcaps are...mmm...a more *physical* shell, that prevent a talented mind from getting in. It doesn't simulate a natural shield, which is more electromagnetic, but its properties of keeping a Talented mind on one side of it only make it useful as a material for people who are not talented but wish to keep Talents out of their head. So the end result is the same--telepaths not getting into one's head--but the mechanics are very different. You'd have the metal shell sitting over one's head. Under the shell, one's mind still remains Talented or UnTalented. I do think a very strong Talent can get around a skullcap (the entire body isn't encased, after all), but they would probably be doing something odd like tapping in through the spinal cord or the like. Something involving touch, and non-brain nerves, something subtle enough that a lower Talent wouldn't be able to use it even if they could sort of sense the mind behind the skullcap.


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Telepathy and Talent shielding, I see as being much more individualized -- each Talent operates on different their own individual "frequency". This model simply and neatly allows Talents to selectively shield against one another and facilitates mental recognition -- a Talent's "frequency" acts as a sort of "parapsychic fingerprint" identifying him- or herself to other Talents.
I can see this. I would say, "frequency within a range". So there'd be a certain "range" that all "frequencies" fall within. Get too far outside of the range, and it becomes a different type of Talent entirely. I would see Talent being chunked up into ranges, with a few "unexplored" ranges that "just aren't used"...sort of like we supposedly have junk DNA in our chromosomes, but scientists are now finding out that it isn't actually junk. So like, ranges 2-5 are used by telepaths, finders use 12-17, telekinetics use ranges 32-33. (Pulling numbers out of the air here.) The weird gaps between those are where wild Talents fall, and they're not very well known or explored or understood because they don't happen "in nature" very often. I'm sort of thinking of the Goosegg here, how certain needle patterns indicate a specific type of Talent is being used.
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Old Dec 26 2008, 01:02 PM   #13
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I'm not sure Thian conceded Ashiant's shield was unbreakable, just that it would be an unforgivable breach of Talent etiquette to attempt it. In the midst of battle Thian heard random comments which could have come from any mind on the bridge, including Ashiant's since the intensity of battle would, according to Thian, allow Ashiant to slip the shield a bit. It also implies that Ashiant was a latent Talent, able to broadcast.
Not having the books to double check against, I'll concede the point.


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The non-Talent with the truly thick shield was Admiral del Falco on Phobos Moon Base, the guy with the basilisk gaze who hated both Talents and 'Dinis. Thian doubted even Jeff or the Rowan could break his shields if they tried.
Thought of him, actually -- but I didn't remember enough details to mention him.

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Talent should be able to gestalt with any electromagnetic field, it doesn't have to be a generator or, say, strip lighting. Heh, even a car battery might do in a pinch if it was connected to a circuit. I have a feeling amps are more important than volts here. This is pure speculation, however. And Talents might prefer AC to DC, even if they could gestalt with both (although the generators of power stations produce DC, it's converted to AC later).
Rather interesting notion, actually.


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Who knows what a T-4 who hasn't been inhibited by training might achieve? However, you asked for canon input, and such doesn't exist.
Actually, I asked for input on canon compatibility, which is not quite the same thing.


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So if you want to have your T-4 'port about the planet without using gestalt, go right ahead. But it won't be compatible with what we know about canon.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that given a set of established rules or guidelines, anything that is not expressly incompatible is by definition compatible.


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However, I seriously doubt your character would be able to 'port anything heavier than herself without gestalt, even as an adult. Or at the very least, she'd have to be higher than a T-4!
At the end of the day, it comes down to mass vs distance modified by inhibitions (or lack therof).
IIRC, Peter Reidinger and Johnny Greene (among others) points this out in the Pegasus trilogy.

If a T-4 can 'port him- or herself anywhere on a given planet without tapping some sort of power source, 'porting three people should be no problem. Could a T-4 'port three people anywhere on a given planet? No, they couldn't -- but then again, I don't recall claiming that a T-4 could. The T-4 would logically take a range hit when 'porting additional mass.


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
That's fine, and that works from a character-standpoint, but a consequence may be that in the FT&T proper if she ends up as a security Talent she might get a lot of flak for using her personal power and tiring herself out. Jeff yells at his Primes for doing stuff like that all the time (so does Reidinger I think), and they are considered to be the strongest Talents in the FT&T. I would think that the pressure would be even worse on a non-Prime Talent.

But yeah. That's just writing details you'd have to work out as a writer.
Agreed -- which is part of the reason I came up with the druid/mage idea.


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Jeff is indeed an outlier, but I get the impression that the Deneb Talents were protected from harm by obscurity. IE, one of the issues in Damia was that Damia discovered how to teleport early. She was just learning too many "tricks" by living in such a high-Talent environment (and due to other factors such as being alone in her age group). I also get the impression that other than Jeff, the Deneb Talents--including his mother--under-performed grossly. I think Isthia could have been a Prime. So I see them 'porting around even *less* for the most part, just because nobody's ever shown them how to teleport. (At least, early in the series) And they're too busy being colonists.
I didn't think of that, but I agree. Additional points:
-->I think that one of a Denebian's principle advantages vs Talents from other worlds is their general lack of inhibition. Even when Deneb started a serious training program, look who they got to run it -- Isthia Raven
-->I also think that some of that Denebian openmindedness rubbed off on the Talents around them -- canonically, more-or-less centered around the Gwyn-Raven clan and it's various offshoots (Raven-Lyon, Lyon-Dano, Lyon-Greevy, etc.).


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
The one exception here would be during the Hiver bombing; I see any potential telekinetics who *could* 'port spontaneously learning how, haha. Nothing like being in fear of your life to learn a new skill...and we know that Talent is prone to emerging under pressure...
Yup, great minds do indeed think alike.


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
Well, you do see Rowan (or was it Afra?) replenishing the other's power in one scene in either The Rowan or Damia. That being said...didn't Peter I have issues with the body-brace thing that tried to directly simulate his body's muscles or something? It was "short circuting" him? I get the impression that while electrical energy can be harnessed to aid in telepathic strength and range, and for telekinetic purposes, it's not 100% compatible with running a human body.
The brace was *forcing* current into his body, possibly at an incompatible voltage/amperage (which ties in well mechanically with our "personal frequency" theory).


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
Of course, nothing *contradicts* the possibility of having someone able to tap into this energy to run themselves, but we never see a Talent re-energizing from a generator; when they get low on energy, if another Talent doesn't walk over and give them a talent-to-talent zap, they chow down on high-carbohydrate things that their digestive system can quickly break down into the appropriate sugars and stuff. Fruits, juices. Probably candy bars.
Well, I doubt there's much precedent concerning Talents reduced to pre-Dragonflight Lessa-variety scrounging, either.
Expanding on my own idea, I'm thinking that Tyra Brennan (the T-4 I'm focusing on here) could use this to streach the effects of the little she manages to scrounge.

'What isn't expressly forbidden is permitted', right?


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
I don't remember this, but Granath elaborates a bit on what you say here. I would say, based on what you both say and not being able at the moment to go back and read my books, that AMC might indeed be hinting then that he's a latent Talent. If that's the case, I would think his shields would be Telepath-style, and thus breakable, and not of the type that Rhyssa's husband had. (I don't remember Granath's example of Falco either. I should probably re-read when I can.)
Sounds fair enough.


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
I'd have to disagree here. I get the impression that certain alloys of metal stop a Talent cold, or at least give them interesting difficulties in getting through. Wasn't the trick that they used to blow up the Hiver sphere was finding a gun-port? Basically a hole in the outer metal shell that let the Talents inside? Or am I mis-remembering? And also there's the distasteful response Talents have to Hiver metal. And also, Brian and Afra working on a way to shield the Rowan's quarters to stem telepathic infantile babble from emanating into the rest of the station. I was thinking metal paneling or something being installed, although it's true that they don't really specify.
Hiver metal inhibits any Talent in its vicinity. That's explicitly stated by Anne in TTATH, starting with Damia.

And no, you're not misremembering.


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
But I'm running on the idea that skullcaps are...mmm...a more *physical* shell, that prevent a talented mind from getting in. It doesn't simulate a natural shield, which is more electromagnetic, but its properties of keeping a Talented mind on one side of it only make it useful as a material for people who are not talented but wish to keep Talents out of their head. So the end result is the same--telepaths not getting into one's head--but the mechanics are very different. You'd have the metal shell sitting over one's head. Under the shell, one's mind still remains Talented or UnTalented. I do think a very strong Talent can get around a skullcap (the entire body isn't encased, after all), but they would probably be doing something odd like tapping in through the spinal cord or the like. Something involving touch, and non-brain nerves, something subtle enough that a lower Talent wouldn't be able to use it even if they could sort of sense the mind behind the skullcap.
Nice explanation of how Peter bypassed that skullcap.

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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
I can see this. I would say, "frequency within a range". So there'd be a certain "range" that all "frequencies" fall within. Get too far outside of the range, and it becomes a different type of Talent entirely. I would see Talent being chunked up into ranges, with a few "unexplored" ranges that "just aren't used"...sort of like we supposedly have junk DNA in our chromosomes, but scientists are now finding out that it isn't actually junk. So like, ranges 2-5 are used by telepaths, finders use 12-17, telekinetics use ranges 32-33. (Pulling numbers out of the air here.) The weird gaps between those are where wild Talents fall, and they're not very well known or explored or understood because they don't happen "in nature" very often. I'm sort of thinking of the Goosegg here, how certain needle patterns indicate a specific type of Talent is being used.
This makes sense! I appreciate you expanding on my own ideas.

Under this theory/interpretation, it would stand to reason that multi-Talents would have a unique frequency for each aspect of their Talent -- so say Jeff Raven's "fingerprint" when probing someone's mind ('path aspect) would be different from his "fingerprint" probing for emotion (empath aspect), a third "fingerprint" for his 'port aspect, etc.

It would also explain how a single multi-Talent can have different ratings for each of his or her abilities/'aspects of Talent'.

Last edited by draconichybrid; Dec 26 2008 at 04:54 PM. Reason: additional thoughts
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Old Dec 27 2008, 12:20 PM   #14
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This does not totally apply but as previously stated I recieved "A Life With Dragons" by
Robin Roberts for Xmas...The Talent ranges was explained/coompared to Anne co-authoring with other lesser authors in the 90's (and as she does with Todd in DragonsKin)
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Old Dec 29 2008, 08:23 AM   #15
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What, like, creative gestalt?

It's a bit off-topic, but do you have a quote?
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Old Dec 29 2008, 04:41 PM   #16
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Nice explanation of how Peter bypassed that skullcap.
Peter was able to read Barchenka because she physically shoved past him - it was the physical contact plus the fact that the information was so strong in her mind. She'd have been broadcasting as loudly as Madlyn if she was at all Talented.
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Old Dec 31 2008, 06:02 PM   #17
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As I've said before most of my books are half-packed for moving LOL. And I am not up to full power, new glasses are helping but stil trying to adjust to them.
---
In the books a T-1 Medic forgot her nam taped lightly into the genertor at the clinic she was working to contact another T-1 Z Thain younger sister working on the Mrdini reproduction problem on her home world.
---
As for P in Space: She was so angry, and projected + Peter phyical contact with her.
After being "darted" She had both, the "skullcap" and bald skin under it add as more shelding for one of the say something to the remark no wonder she feel densce (sp) Gorder (sp)
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Old Jan 1 2009, 01:09 AM   #18
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What, like, creative gestalt?

It's a bit off-topic, but do you have a quote?
The discussion is on pages 180 to 187 of "A Life With Dragons" The comments are that the "new series" from Pegasus in Flight and The Rowan showed that Anne did not need to go the co-author route...It is commented that The Rowan reflects Anne's own life/status (Matriarch of an extended household)
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Orphaned.the Rowan has to start a new life alone on a new planet. All she has is her "Talent" or psychic abilities which parallel Anne's emigration to Ireland relying on her "talent" of writing.Talents are ranked ...from high of T-1 to T-10. The more adept Talents often work with lesser Talents,combining their powers.. ..presaged Anne's own real-world partnerships with other writers...Anne a T-1 in terms of her fictional universe ...and the authors she would help lesser ranked talents....
From there is discusses the pros and cons of her co authoring in the 90s and with Todd these days....
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Old Jan 1 2009, 12:32 PM   #19
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Peter was able to read Barchenka because she physically shoved past him - it was the physical contact plus the fact that the information was so strong in her mind. She'd have been broadcasting as loudly as Madlyn if she was at all Talented.
We already know. Domini and I have both already said that that's what happened. We just went into a bit more detail.
Would you enjoy reading a story that ended with "And then the little girl woke up and bumped her head."?

My answer would be something like 'Bastards! The entire thing was one long DREAM SEQUENCE!? Why the hell did I even bother reading this, again?', heh.


Oh, side note:

Finally started writing another rabid plotbunny of mine (this new fic, Final Fantasy V, and reading random fics has been taking up my time -- so no progress on straight Talentverse fic): Talentverse / Riley Jenson Guardian series Crossover.

So besides the LEO and FT&T this new thing inherits from Talentverse, there's also the "supernatural" races and "Directorate of Other Races" (LEO clone that deals with the nonhumans, freeing up the LEO to concentrate on humans) inherited from Guardianverse. :P

The two should mesh rather well, actually.

I have another unrelated Fic that I've abandoned -- so I'll start transforming that into the crossover at some point.
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Old Jan 1 2009, 12:51 PM   #20
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Would you enjoy reading a story that ended with "And then the little girl woke up and bumped her head."?

My answer would be something like 'Bastards! The entire thing was one long DREAM SEQUENCE!? Why the hell did I even bother reading this, again?'
Alice in Wonderland.
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Old Jan 1 2009, 07:10 PM   #21
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Alice in Wonderland.
I've been wondering why I didn't like that....
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Old Jan 3 2009, 01:58 PM   #22
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Is there a club for peeps who want to play at being a Talent????
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Old Jan 4 2009, 06:40 AM   #23
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I think a few people have tried to set one up, but it languished due to lack of participants. Talent fandom is fairly sparse, although it is vocal.
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Old Jan 23 2009, 02:41 AM   #24
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Also if I recall right in order to tap into gestal general at least not be tone deaf, LOL at myself I'm that. So wouldn't that care over to using and taping power? Just a twig of idea here that would perhapes help.

For there are those who can use a generator and some that can't or need some to bring them into the merge Lan Banton (sp). I thinking off.

Also I recall the in the books Afa and Rowle (sp) I know I'm off used the combind abilly of the twins in a merge with and without generatior merge to shift things.

Just a few idea that came up a reading the two related threads
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Old Mar 14 2009, 11:28 AM   #25
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I'm working a Fic, and I'd like to keep it fairly canonical. To that effect, I have a few questions (two so far, and I'll post more here as needed):

Question #1: Already asked and answered. Thanks again, Domini!
Question #2: What's the maximum range canonically that a T-4 telekinetic could port him- or her self and possibly one or two other people (so three adults maximum)? Same question for an "average" T-1.
When it comes to the limit of a T-1 (unpowered send), when the Rowan was on Calisto and Afra was not (at first) going to help launch her to Debeb IV, she threatened to teleport herself without the use of the station generators. With generator gestault, Deneb IV was at the edge of the Rowan's range, and she is one of the most powerful T-1s (the book indicates she is equivalent to Peter Reidinger IV, but not as strong as Jeff Raven). This seems to only indicate how far one of the strongest T-1s could send themselves, but since it is mentioned that this is at the edge of the Rowan's range and not the absolute limit of her range, I would think that she would be able to teleport hersleft and three others with an unpowered send?

To get the real range, we could find out how many astrological units (AUs) of distance there is between Calisto and Deneb IV.

When it comes to a T-4's range for teleporting herslef/himself and three other people in an unpowered send, I would have to think about it some more and maybe dig in the books a bit. From what I remember, I think that a T-4's range is planet-bound and distance is pretty limited (unpowered that is).
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Old Mar 14 2009, 11:53 AM   #26
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An adult T-4 would be able to 'port himself on a planet, at least in gestalt (see my post above).

If you want this story to approach canon, you're either going to have to give your Talent something to gestalt with, or else make him stronger than a T-4. Not necessarily a Prime, but a strong T-3 should be able to 'port at least one other person unaided. A T-2 would certainly be able to do that on a planetary surface.
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