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Old Dec 30 2008, 08:12 PM   #1
D. M. Domini
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Default Craftseconds

I was looking at the rank knot thread, and a link to http://soucon.silvertree.org/info/knots.html was posted there. I was noodling about that page, and saw "Craftseconds" as a rank.

I'd forgotten about Craftseconds. Does this term only appear in the DLG, or is it used in one of the canon books? This means, second-to-the-MasterWhatever of a Craft, right?

And if it does, is Menolly technically the Craftsecond of the Harper Hall now that Sebell is Masterharper? (And if so, was Sebell Craftsecond before he became Masterharper?)
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Old Dec 31 2008, 03:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Terry was craftsecond to Fandarel. Canon book Dragonquest. though he's the only person I ran across named that way.
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Old Dec 31 2008, 04:52 AM   #3
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Like Ghost said, it is in the books. Terry isn't the only one though but maybe the only one clearly marked as Craft Second.

When the Herder Craftmaster dies in Moreta, doesn't the Second take over?
Without it having been said I also think Briaret was second to Sograny at the Beastmaster Hold.
Curran took over Idarolan's Craftmaster post. I think he has been his second.
Morilton must have been Norist's second to be appointed temporary Craftmaster after Norist's exile.
Balfor was Besatcraftmaster elect (though he declined), so probably was second, right?

And Oldive is mentioned as Craftmaster Ginia's assistant, which I also take as second.
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Old Dec 31 2008, 05:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: Craftseconds

well...On the same note, How about Junior and Senior Apprentices and Journeymen? (And probably Craftmasters as well.

It makes since that within each rank, there would be different levels. Are those also mentioned in the other books as well?
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Old Dec 31 2008, 05:32 AM   #5
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Junior and Senior apprentices and Journeymen are mentioned in the books. I don't think I have come across any junior masters. You're either a Master or not
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Old Dec 31 2008, 10:39 AM   #6
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Default Re : Craftseconds

On the other hand, we have:
Cranky Masters
Grumpy Masters
Grouchy Masters
Short-sighted Masters (mind or eyes, your choice)
Sleepy Masters
Thoughful Masters
Perfectionist Masters
etc.

After you cross the tables from Journeymen's to Master's, I guess rank becomes a personnality issue
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Old Dec 31 2008, 11:26 AM   #7
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Wasn't Lytol the Weaverhall Craftsecond before he took over Ruatha? I think that rank was mentioned in one of the books conologically after or concurrent with The White Dragon.
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Old Dec 31 2008, 12:00 PM   #8
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Default Re: Craftseconds

I do not think he was weaverhall craft second. I am not sure that he was a master, did it mention his rank? I only remember it saying he was in the weavercraft hall.
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Old Dec 31 2008, 12:14 PM   #9
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Default Re : Craftseconds

I don't think he was. His title should only have been Weaver.
After Larth died, he (almost) recovered and found a way to join the Weaver Hall, but he certainly could not begin apprenticeship at his age. So no way for him to follow the Hall "degree course". And I think this would be mandatory to become Craftsecond, right?
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Old Dec 31 2008, 04:11 PM   #10
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Default Re: Craftseconds

That would make sense...I've always thought Lytol might have had at least some Weaver training before Impressing Larth. ::shrug;;
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Old Dec 31 2008, 05:21 PM   #11
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenrider Tresa View Post
That would make sense...I've always thought Lytol might have had at least some Weaver training before Impressing Larth. ::shrug;;
In MHvP: his is craftbreed from High Reaches, after losing and recoving somewhat from the loss of Larth he moves back to his family weavercrafthall, with his family, and keeps it running even with all the problem Fax adds to his problems.

Also here is something too in the books the Harper Hall has a staff of Master and the Senior Master has taken over when the MasterHarper is gone. MLP and Rill talks about it.

Most of my books are half-packed for moving LOL
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Old Dec 31 2008, 07:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: Craftseconds

It is mentioned in one of the books, possibly DQ or TWD, that the Lords Holder don't quite know what to make of Lytol, who had been dragonrider, crafter (I thought it was craftmaster) AND Lord Warder! He certainly has a unique perspective.
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Old Jan 1 2009, 06:18 AM   #13
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Default Re: Craftseconds

I consider everything in "The People of Pern" canon (as it is written by Anne and not by Robin):

Quote:
... Leaving the Weyr brought a second trauma. Then, when he tenaciously began a new craft, Lytol succeeded wel enough to become a master, marry a kind woman, and father daughters. His craft took him to High Reaches Hold just about the time Fax usurped it. His daughters and wife were pretty and coveted by Fax. Two of his girls managed to escape. The other committed suicide and her mother died of a heart seziure. Once again Lytol was left with nothing...
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Old Jan 2 2009, 11:26 PM   #14
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinnyStar View Post
In MHvP: his is craftbreed from High Reaches, after losing and recoving somewhat from the loss of Larth he moves back to his family weavercrafthall, with his family, and keeps it running even with all the problem Fax adds to his problems.

Also here is something too in the books the Harper Hall has a staff of Master and the Senior Master has taken over when the MasterHarper is gone. MLP and Rill talks about it.
The Senior Master could be either the oldest master, or the one who had been a master longest (apart from the Masterharper). Or else someone designated to keep things running smoothly in the absence of the Mastercrafter --- not necessarily the Craft-Second (the one with the most technical ability), but perhaps the best administrator.

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Old Jan 3 2009, 05:03 AM   #15
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Of course the older/oldest Master is the/a senior Master. I just don't think it is a rank.

When the real Master is away, the next oldest (as in exerienced/with mst athority) takes his place, but again, I don't see it as an official rank.
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Old Jan 5 2009, 07:29 AM   #16
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Unhappy Re : Re: Craftseconds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans View Post
I consider everything in "The People of Pern" canon (as it is written by Anne and not by Robin):
"[...] when he tenaciously began a new craft, Lytol succeeded wel enough to become a master [...]"
I assume this description is accurate indeed! Well, as much for my understanding of Craft working. I did not know an adult or even a grown-up teen could come back to his/her craft and resume his/her interrupted apprenticeship.

But I guess there is not that many riders coming back from the Weyr because they lose their dragons. At least, not that many alive and able to have a "normal" life. So these few people might be treated differently. Lytol deserves credit for succeeding in overcoming so many trials... He is just not the type of person who gives up. Admirable.
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Old Jan 5 2009, 04:48 PM   #17
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenrider Tresa View Post
That would make sense...I've always thought Lytol might have had at least some Weaver training before Impressing Larth. ::shrug;;
In MHoP, shortly after Robinton becomes a regular apprentice, there's a Hatching where Falloner (F'lon) impresses his bronze, and "the Weavercrafthall lad from High Reaches, Lytonal, was now L'tol and rode brown Larth".

So Lytol could well have had a few years as a Weaver apprentice before he went to the Weyr, and maybe kept in practice there, since it was an Interval.

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Old Jan 5 2009, 10:04 PM   #18
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Default Re: Craftseconds

I choose to ignore that part of MHoP, as I ignore other parts; I like Lytol better as having learned his craft after suffering Larth's loss.

Some of MHoP's retcon* I accept, some I do not.






*retcon = retroactive continuity: revising something already established as canon.

Example: George Lucas changing Star Wars so that Han did not shoot first.


(I'm including this definition because it took me forever to find out what it meant, and it drove me nuts!)
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Old Jan 11 2009, 02:43 AM   #19
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Hmm that tells me its been a bit I've read "People of Pern" "Srug Shoulders' I never
own copy of it.

So would it be 'second in command' not Craft Second I wold think. A Master of the Craft in his/her place in the CraftHall?
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Old Jan 11 2009, 11:08 AM   #20
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda View Post
I choose to ignore that part of MHoP, as I ignore other parts; I like Lytol better as having learned his craft after suffering Larth's loss.

Some of MHoP's retcon* I accept, some I do not.
I don't know - it makes sense that Lytol was of the Weavercraft, was then Searched, Impressed, then went back to his 'family' trade.
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Old Jan 11 2009, 11:42 AM   #21
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda View Post
I choose to ignore that part of MHoP, as I ignore other parts; I like Lytol better as having learned his craft after suffering Larth's loss.

Some of MHoP's retcon* I accept, some I do not.
Somethings like that in MHoP might not be retcon.

I picking up a book called the Riven Codex by David Eddings. It was a published collection of all his notes he wrote his sotries based from.

I suspect many authors have these sorts of collections, and only bits and peice of it make it into any one or seiries of books.

For example, I absolutely loved the fact that the Ballad of Moretta's Ride, had very little in common with the actual historical story so to speak. It reflected that over 800 turns had passed and the legend of Moretta had degraded into myth. I don't think that anything in Moretta, as compared to DF,DQ, is Retcon.

Anne never really said what Lytol was was before being a dragonrider until MHoP. However I bet if someone got a peek at her notes collections, there would be a whole lot too many characters that was never written about.

Who knows, maybe Jaxom had a son by that holder lass he was seeing before he hooked up with Sharra.
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Old Jan 11 2009, 02:50 PM   #22
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Default Re: Craftseconds

No, I agree, Moreta's ride is different.
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Old Jan 12 2009, 12:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: Craftseconds

I believe that most Head Crafthall Masters are selected by vote within each craft. I think it was mentioned towards the end of DF. I remember reading though, that Robinton told Sebell that he was grooming him to take over. As they are teachers/entertainers, the criteria would be different than the others. Just my thought on the subject.
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Old Jan 12 2009, 10:15 AM   #24
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Hippie View Post
I believe that most Head Crafthall Masters are selected by vote within each craft. I think it was mentioned towards the end of DF. I remember reading though, that Robinton told Sebell that he was grooming him to take over. As they are teachers/entertainers, the criteria would be different than the others. Just my thought on the subject.
But in MHoP, even though Gennell was grooming Robinton to succeed him, there was still a vote when the time came. When Sebell took over after Robinton's heart attack we don't know whether there was a vote or not, it isn't mentioned, although the impression is that everyone expects Sebell to take over.
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Old Jan 14 2009, 07:18 AM   #25
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Doesn't Lytol also state while drunk in TWD that he was a master?

Don't forget the unofficial ranks, too, such as head apprentice or wrestling trainer.
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Old Jan 14 2009, 10:32 AM   #26
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Default Re: Craftseconds

Yes, but Lytol was a Master Weaver, not the Masterweaver.
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