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Old Dec 17 2008, 10:16 AM   #1
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Default Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

I searched briefly for the topic, but found nothing.


I know Jaxom and F'lar talked a bit about Jaxom retrieving the egg from the Old timers when they were at Landing I think it was.

But we never got to really get Lessa's response from this when he made the remark to Toric about taking something from Southern..


Lessa gave a look, but we never got to hear her reaction... I don't know if she would have been happy or angry...


Or did F'lar kind of figure it out when they saw the thread score on Jaxom?
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Old Dec 17 2008, 10:21 AM   #2
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

I know when Jaxom was suffering from firehead he raved about the egg. Sharra and Brekke knew...I think Brekke must have told F"nor from a comment F"nor made and from there the Benden Weyrleaders knew...They were more impressed that Jaxom kept it a secret at the time because it was important then that Lessa thought the Old Timers had a change of heart...The assassination attempts on Jaxom were from the Old Timer who was stationed at Ruatha as a watchdragon (was his name Giron?) His dragon went between in shame (did this mean the dragons did not vocalize his departure as they did other dragons?
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Old Dec 17 2008, 10:59 AM   #3
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

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Originally Posted by Emeraldrose View Post
I know when Jaxom was suffering from firehead he raved about the egg. Sharra and Brekke knew...I think Brekke must have told F"nor from a comment F"nor made and from there the Benden
I doubt if Sharra or Brekke would have told anyone, as there is probably some type of Healer's Code involved. I also doubt if they would have had to tell anyone... (It is possible that on one of F'nor's visits to fight thread, that he may have overheard some of the firehead rantings.)

Because at about the time that Jaxom had recovered from firehead, there was the duel between F'lar and the oldtimer that caused Robinton's heart attack. And during the duel, the oldtimer mentioned something about the Northerners stealing the egg back (which meant that no southerner had returned the egg). Especially with Jaxom's constant boasting of Ruth always knows exactly when he is, and the special relationship between Ruth and Firedragons, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out, if you have all of the pieces. And Menolly had already figured it out before Jaxom caught firehead. And Robinton did finally figure it out, too (I remember that he did figure it out, it may have even been before the boat trip, and why he send Menolly and Jaxom together to look for D'ram, because he also figured out that Menolly had figured it out.).

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Old Dec 17 2008, 11:25 AM   #4
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

I rememeber the scene with Toric that Lessa had gave him a look of Surprise when he said that he had already taken something from Southern... But Emerald you are right that old timer did attack Jaxom as he had figured out it was Jaxom who snatched the egg.

But I have a feeling that those who did know didn't blab out of respect for Jaxom. As they could tell he was working hard to keep it a secret.

I guess I just wish that we could have heard the conversation between him and Lessa on that matter as I think it was either not covered or maybe it never happened.
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Old Dec 17 2008, 08:55 PM   #5
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

The oldtimmer did NOT attack Jaxom, he went after F'lar.
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Old Dec 17 2008, 10:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

The Oldtimer, G'lanar, was attempting to assassinate Jaxom not F'lar (and possibly Sharra who was also in the bed), but Jaxom was warned about the intruder by the firelizard Meer. I just happened to have recently re-read "All the Weyrs of Pern" and recalled the incident.

F'lar, Piemer, Lytol and D'ram "came bursting into the room." Reinforcements to help Jaxom. And then Lessa and Jancis also came in after D'ram and F'lar grabbed G'lanar who had been disabled by Jaxom.

G'lanar spewed -- "He's to blame...if it hadn't been for you, we'd've had our own fertile queen..." etc., etc. "Unnatural man, unnatural dragon...abomination as vile as that Aivas you worship..." Or something like that.

And, then G'lanar suicided because he didn't kill Jaxom.
Yeah, and no dragon accolade when his Lamoth went between from shame.
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Old Dec 17 2008, 10:59 PM   #7
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

I think Ramoth probably knew before Lessa did. Not much passed among dragons that she didn't know about. I suspect that by the time she found out about it she didn't care any more. The egg was back where it belonged and safely hatched. Which is probably what she told Lessa when Lessa finally did find out. The time and circumstances of the more-or-less public acknowlegdement would have diverted her from making a big deal of the matter. I don't remember an actual conversation between Lessa and Jaxom on the subject. She might have slipped him a quiet "thank you" somewhere along the way but I think that's left for the readers to imagine.
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Old Dec 18 2008, 03:24 AM   #8
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

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The Oldtimer, G'lanar, was attempting to assassinate Jaxom not F'lar (and possibly Sharra who was also in the bed), but Jaxom was warned about the intruder by the firelizard Meer. I just happened to have recently re-read "All the Weyrs of Pern" and recalled the incident.

F'lar, Piemer, Lytol and D'ram "came bursting into the room." Reinforcements to help Jaxom. And then Lessa and Jancis also came in after D'ram and F'lar grabbed G'lanar who had been disabled by Jaxom.

G'lanar spewed -- "He's to blame...if it hadn't been for you, we'd've had our own fertile queen..." etc., etc. "Unnatural man, unnatural dragon...abomination as vile as that Aivas you worship..." Or something like that.

And, then G'lanar suicided because he didn't kill Jaxom.
Yeah, and no dragon accolade when his Lamoth went between from shame.
By accolade you mean keen? They did keen, I don't recall who said it Ruth I think Lamoth died of shame For Lamoth had fallen a sleep before the his rider did his deed, and somehow gotten between.

For Sharon and the other where going to start their study on the Thread that Jancis's fire lizard Trig had got.

G'lanar also tried to kill him via the riding leather Jaxom used, not carring if Sharra was killed too.
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Old Dec 18 2008, 08:50 AM   #9
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

There is still a fair amount of time between Lessa's seemingly realization at Landing right after Jaxom's rescue of Sharra vs. G'lanar's attempt on Jaxom's life where it basically publicly announced.


Sandi I have a feeling your idea of a "thank you" may have been all that He got. As they had already rounded him on thread score (which I doubt they realized he got it during the Egg rescue.)
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Old Dec 18 2008, 01:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

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By accolade you mean keen? They did keen, I don't recall who said it Ruth I think Lamoth died of shame For Lamoth had fallen a sleep before the his rider did his deed, and somehow gotten between.
Yes, by "accolade" I meant the dragons chose not to honor Lamoth and his rider's suicides by keening. Ruth did some kind of a short noise -- "the sound he uttered was muted, an oddly strangled noise", but that was it. And, yes, Ruth was the one who told Jaxom that Lamoth died out of shame.

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Old Dec 18 2008, 02:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

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I know when Jaxom was suffering from firehead he raved about the egg. Sharra and Brekke knew...I think Brekke must have told F"nor from a comment F"nor made and from there the Benden Weyrleaders knew...They were more impressed that Jaxom kept it a secret at the time because it was important then that Lessa thought the Old Timers had a change of heart...The assassination attempts on Jaxom were from the Old Timer who was stationed at Ruatha as a watchdragon (was his name Giron?) His dragon went between in shame (did this mean the dragons did not vocalize his departure as they did other dragons?
I don't think the man's name was Giron. The man who tried to kill Jaxom(and failed) killed himself and HIS dragon went Between in shame.
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Old Dec 18 2008, 04:08 PM   #12
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

Thanks a prior post identified them as G'lanar and Lamoth. Now I just have to figure out who Giron is/was or if I pulled the name out of thin air...
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Old Dec 18 2008, 07:50 PM   #13
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

I think it mentioned that the other dragons just knew that Lamoth died not why he died so that assassination attempt was not publicly known.
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Old Dec 18 2008, 10:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

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Thanks a prior post identified them as G'lanar and Lamoth. Now I just have to figure out who Giron is/was or if I pulled the name out of thin air...
From both the short story Girl Who Hear Dragons and The Renegades of Pern

He was a ex-dragonrider from Telgar Wyer who lost his blue dragon. As far as I recall, the book is no long here, read too much paperback LOL
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Old Dec 19 2008, 03:15 AM   #15
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

Ginny is correct, Giron was and ex-dragonrider and one of the people close to Lady Holdless Thella.
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Old Dec 20 2008, 01:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

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I don't think the man's name was Giron. The man who tried to kill Jaxom(and failed) killed himself and HIS dragon went Between in shame.
His dragon went between because his rider was killed, not from shame.

I believe - and this is only my beliefs - that if a dragon's rider thinks he is doing the right thing, the dragon will, for the most part, go along with it. No matter what, I really can't see a life form that is dependent upon another life form to live commit suicide.
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Old Dec 20 2008, 04:12 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

Jaxom questioned how G'Lanar knew about the Egg because so few did...D'ram mentions that he had not known until the attack on Jaxom...as far as Lamoth's death page 326 in my copy of AtWOP states
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With the rider dead,the dragon would suicide...his heart quailed,waiting for the keen that all dragonriders dreaded to hear. Ruth had pulled his head from the window...The sound he uttered was muted,an oddly strangled noise...Lamoth dies. In shame. Ruth sank back to the ground his head low.
This also clarifies a question about Lessa...She did not arrive until after G'Lanar and Lamoth had died...Ramoth and Mnementh landing after the strangled keen from Ruth...
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Old Dec 21 2008, 07:30 AM   #18
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

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His dragon went between because his rider was killed, not from shame.

I believe - and this is only my beliefs - that if a dragon's rider thinks he is doing the right thing, the dragon will, for the most part, go along with it. No matter what, I really can't see a life form that is dependent upon another life form to live commit suicide.
That's real good nitpicking

OK, the correct way of describing it would be: Lamoth went between in shame but because his rider died. And I supposed he died in shame because the other dragons didn't honour him with the usual keening.

Which might mean that the dragons would have expected Lamoth not to cooperate with his rider's plans and actions...
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Old Dec 21 2008, 12:17 PM   #19
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

Yeah, you're right.

However. The knife fight between F'lar and T'ron. T'ron was picking that fight; just waiting for a chance to fight F'lar. If he had died, would Fidranth have gone between in shame? After all, Fidranth was still there when F'lar won, because T'ron wasn't killed. And none of the dragons seemed to think anything of it.

T'kul purposely allowed his dragon to die, having him join in the queen flight for...I think it was Caylith's flight at Ista. Now, I'm not sure if, when Salth passed that the dragons not chasing keened, but there was no mention of shame then.

And really - why would dragons hold one of their own accountable for the actions of their rider? Kind of silly, really.

I'm not saying it didn't happen - I will admit that I forgot that the dragons didn't keen over him. But I do feel that this is another Anne-consistency, and something that was thrown in there to drive home the fact that Abominators = BAD, Benden & friends = GOOD.

And I think poor Lamoth was given a bum rap.
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Old Dec 21 2008, 02:53 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

Hmm, yes, I can follow your reasoning. But my remark was made because I felt the same way. I mean, by not keening the dragons judge a peer, right? And I actally wouldn't expect dragons to "judge", hence my remark because one follows from the other...

The only thing in defense that could be said is that the fact G'lanar wanted to murder Jaxom was assassination, while T'ron challenged F'lar to a duel (an accepted thing on Pern) even though it wasn't really fair (and thinking of that, dragons didn't/don't interfere with that, even if it isn't fair, while they [or a queen] easily could) and T'kul's action was his own and in that case he could never be sure of his dragon dying because of it.

Still, your point rings true, Shalyn, but that makes it all the more interesting that the dragons somehow seemed to judge and that it seemed he was held partly responsible for the behaviour of his rider...
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Old Dec 21 2008, 03:45 PM   #21
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

I always though it was Lamoth's shame that his rider could take his own life. I mean, it's not that anyone would execute a dragonrider.
It's a great betrayal of that bond because not only are you killing yourself, you are killing your dragon when that dragon is not ready to go (to differentiate it from an elderly dragon and rider going between because they both are tired of life).
I always felt that he could have felt ashamed because he shouldn't have let his rider take his own life/ should have realised/ let him down etc. That and his rider did not think about him, that, when it came down to it, he came second. The poor dragon was woken by all these things as his rider died.
The other dragons did give tribute, Ruth does at least!
Dragons don't do "cause and effect" very well so Lamoth might easily not have realised and the other dragons would not blame him.

With T'ron and T'kul:
T'ron does not die or kill F'lar, so there is no reason for Fidranth to go between, and isn't Salth already dead when T'kul fights F'lar?
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Old Dec 21 2008, 07:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

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I always though it was Lamoth's shame that his rider could take his own life. I mean, it's not that anyone would execute a dragonrider.
It's a great betrayal of that bond because not only are you killing yourself, you are killing your dragon when that dragon is not ready to go (to differentiate it from an elderly dragon and rider going between because they both are tired of life).
I always felt that he could have felt ashamed because he shouldn't have let his rider take his own life/ should have realised/ let him down etc. That and his rider did not think about him, that, when it came down to it, he came second. The poor dragon was woken by all these things as his rider died.
The other dragons did give tribute, Ruth does at least!
Dragons don't do "cause and effect" very well so Lamoth might easily not have realised and the other dragons would not blame him.
I like that reasoning. And my memory is spotty on the events in that book anyway.



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With T'ron and T'kul:
T'ron does not die or kill F'lar, so there is no reason for Fidranth to go between, and isn't Salth already dead when T'kul fights F'lar?
What I was saying was that the dragons didn't judge Fidranth for his rider's actions, so why should they judge Lamorth?
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Old Dec 22 2008, 12:50 AM   #23
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

I can completely agree that the dragon dying in shame because his rider had suicided makes more sense than that his rider would take action to kill a fellow dragonrider.

I recall some of the incident at landing, When Robinton wondered if the Benden Weyrleaders had known of Jaxom's actions in recovery of the egg. Pern tends to elevate people who take drastic actions for the greater good. While Jaxom's actions were in that class, it was offset by the theft of the egg in the first place. The Harpers were likely the ones to keep Jaxom's actions quiet. The thought of an oldtimer returning the egg helped to keep popular support for dragonriders from being completely negative.
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Old Dec 22 2008, 03:19 AM   #24
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

Edith, that makes much sense
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Old Dec 22 2008, 08:46 AM   #25
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

I tend to think all the actions of the rider lead to Lamoth's actions/shame. However since we don't get to know how all the dragons reacted it could be possible they keened and honored Lamoth. Ruth (quirky as he is) may have played down after what the dragon's rider had just tried to do.

I don't see all dragons knowing what had happened and if Lamoth was in shame I doubt Lamoth would have broadcasted before going between.
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Old Dec 22 2008, 10:40 AM   #26
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

I believe Mirrim knew the morning after that Lamoth had died of shame, and she would only have known through Path and the other dragons in Eastern Weyr. She seemed to think it strange, as I recall, making a remark to Sharra. Sharra could also tell that Mirrim was upset a dragon had died. Though I also seem to remember that the exact details of the circumstances (mostly the fact that there was an assassination attempt on Jaxom's life) were kept hidden, I believe every dragon knew that Lamoth died of shame, as they usually know why a dragon dies.
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Old Jan 12 2009, 11:27 PM   #27
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

The reading I get is that the dragon was asleep when his rider contemplated the act of murder, woke as it happened and realized what his rider did. As this happenedhe felt the shame of it. Then G'lanar killed himself, the dragon went between with that feeling and Ruth was close enough to acknowledge it. Dragons seem to protest somewhat to their riders. A good example is the exchanges between Kalara (sorry for the spelling) and her queen or F'lar having a "nursey" dragon when he was sick and feverish. Just my thoughts on that aspect.
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Old May 23 2012, 03:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

I always thought the phrasing of that scene was a bit confusing; with the line "Lamoth dies. In shame", was it saying that Lamoth died ashamed at his rider's actions, or was it saying that the other dragons were condemning Lamoth for his rider's actions?

During recent re-reading of the book, I found two lines that help to clarify and imply the former; at the start of the next chapter, Mirrim remarks "I feel sorry for the dragon. Didn't know one would die of shame". Later on, in the same chapter, Sebell mentions at a meeting that "Master Robinton was there himself and told me that Jaxom was victim, not assailant, and Lamoth died of shame that his rider would turn on another rider."

Perhaps it was only Ruth who didn't keen, or it could be that odd noise he made was his attempt at a keen - he'd have multiple emotions going through him at the time; worry and anger at G'lanar's attempt upon his rider, and sympathy for Lamoth. I dunno, I think I might need to do some more research into dragon keening...
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Old May 26 2012, 02:24 AM   #29
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

I've read many of the Dragonrider books, but not this one. A "search" must now begin! But I think I may understand, from what I have read here, what the author was trying to convey.

As we know from the first book, Dragonflight, the Pernese civilization had reverted, in many aspects, to a more savage and primal mindset in which dueling was quite commonplace.

Lamoth's shame was toward his rider was twofold. First, that G'lanar would attempt such a cowardly act of assasinating another dragonrider in their bed rather than facing Jaxom in a fair fight. The second was probably the primary reason however. At impression, dragons put their complete trust in the rider they choose. With few exceptions, all riders put the lives of their dragons before their own. Through our reading we see riders making mistakes that lead to the loss of dragonkind but G'lanar made the decision to kill himself with no regard to Lamoth and thus Lamoth died in shame. The dragons didn't keen, not because they didn't want to, thus the small noise the Ruth made, but to honor Lamoth's death as something unique. Lamoth did not suicide to honor his rider, so the dragons did not honor it either but as we see with Ruth dropping his head low, honored Lamoth by sharing his shame.
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Old May 27 2012, 11:04 PM   #30
Brenda
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

Soonerule, how can you analyze something you just said you've never read?
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Old May 30 2012, 12:51 AM   #31
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

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Soonerule, how can you analyze something you just said you've never read?
I said my opinion was based on the books I HAD read and what was said in this thread. It may change when I do read the book, but I doubt it. The incident in the book is discussed pretty thoroughly here don't you think?
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Old May 30 2012, 04:25 AM   #32
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

I think what you said sounds pretty darn right, though! Good job!
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Old May 31 2012, 01:37 AM   #33
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Default Re: Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg

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I think what you said sounds pretty darn right, though! Good job!
thanks
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