A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum  

Go Back   A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum > The Anne McCaffrey Collection > Dragonriders of Pern

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Aug 13 2010, 06:59 PM   #41
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Trading one's own queen to save your lover or whatever is, quite bluntly, the STUPIDIST thing ever written about Pern. You want to talk about flying in the face of canon and Lorana being a Mary Sue? There you go. Holth PERMITTED Moreta to ride her in emergency situations where Holth's own rider wasn't physically fit to go or where Moreta's specific talents were needed, and ONLY because Moreta's own queen wasn't able to leave her clutch. There wasn't even any assumption Holth and Moreta would be in danger, let alone that they might never come back--the one thing that is crystal clear in the end of Moreta is that NOTHING can replace Holth for Leri, or Moreta for Orltih. Even with far more time to recover than usual (as Orlith delays her suicide until hatching) they can't. There is no point to existance for Orlith, and Leri can't bring herself to live without Holth. In Dragonquest, the people (and firelizard) who care most about Brekke are the ones who firmly believe attempting to reimpress is WRONG and they turn out to be right. Brekke's not made 100% whole again or even better right away, let alone "Okay, I'm good now!" Being an HAD and having F'nor and Mirrim and Manora and Canth and Berd all there and loving and supporting her lets her keep her *sanity*. That's about all. Lytol spends literally decades in mental pain, during much of which time he can't even be anywhere near the Weyr, and never quite is able to look at a dragon without some pain. Kylara's mind breaks. The ex-rider who's with Thella's raiders is completely, irredeemably psychotic. The idea of losing one's dragon is, it has been firmly established, UTTERLY UNTHINKABLE. The idea that a queen rider would TRADE her queen like it was a particularly-unloved pony or even a bicycle completely flies in the face of everything Anne wrote about the dragon-rider bond. Or that another gold rider would say she'd rather lose her queen than...her female friend? And her queen agrees?
Whoa, whoa! Is Tullea actually trading her Queen permanently? Because I would totally agree with you that that's a seriously ridiculous event.

Wait, can someone check for us? Is Tullea permanently giving up her Queen, or is she just lending her to Lorana (for possibly quite some time) so she can go do...whatever she does...in the same way that Moreta did? Both outcomes seem quite riduculous, and really trying the bonds of dragon and rider, but the latter makes a bit more sense.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 13 2010, 09:08 PM   #42
r2005
Crafter
Student
 
r2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Maine
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: 1632 Series by Eric Flint
Default Re: Dragongirl

Lorana asks Tullea if she can borrow her queen to make a quick trip which I'm sure that Tullea believed that she was going to return with her queen within a reasonable amount of time. I haven't decided yet if Lorana knew that she was going to go forward in time when she asked to borrow the queen. I know that she had definitely decided on the plan with Ketan/K'tan at that point, but not the rest.
__________________
There is no life I know to compare with pure imagination, living there you'll be free if you truly wish to be
r2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 13 2010, 10:03 PM   #43
jube
Dolphineer Journeywoman
 
jube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Australia
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragons of Pern
Now Reading: Puzzles and my thesaurus!
Default Re: Dragongirl

I read or heard somewhere that the hydrocholoric acid in one's stomach (in humans, that is) is quite powerful and can potentially burn through wood so why can't the watch weyr's stomach be in the same position as ours that "he/she" can eat thread and not be harmed that way when digested? So far that's the only idea, I've come up with at the moment.

Up to page 130 and thought the part of the "Igen" riders coming to Telgar and inspiring the weyr after Telgar's losses was/is so far the best written part of the book to that point. Still debating on the rest of it. I'll make comments as I continue reading the book as so far no-one has spoiled it for me, with the comments, they've made and it makes a few good points for me to remember to discuss later on.
__________________
Dolphineer Journeywoman and part-time researcher....

Find me on ebay.....

Here'tis!
jube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 14 2010, 01:13 AM   #44
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
I read or heard somewhere that the hydrocholoric acid in one's stomach (in humans, that is) is quite powerful and can potentially burn through wood so why can't the watch weyr's stomach be in the same position as ours that "he/she" can eat thread and not be harmed that way when digested? So far that's the only idea, I've come up with at the moment.
Sounds good to me. However, since they eat it, it must mean that the same strength/protection exists throughout the throat and mouth. So presumably, Wind Blossom changed their body structure to regurgitate heavy amounts of this acid in Threadfall, and they use this to dissolve the thread and devour it (with all these drastic changes to the genetics of a native creature, it's not surprising that Whers turned out looking so different to the others). This would also make sense with her using them as a back-up (they don't need riders; according to the DLG they can go wild, and their method of Thread destruction doesn't require an element that could run out over time, i.e. Firestone.)

I wonder if a similar form of Thread destruction exists for fire-lizards as well (based off Kylara's claims in DQ). It could be that this method was used before the discovery and use of Firestone (which would have been accidental). However, it could just be an instinct to destroy Thread that made Kylara's lizard attack it. Dragons don't seem to think of it as an option, as in Red Star Rising the dragons panic upon seeing Thread with no Firestone available. Maybe the second stomach in Whers is used exclusively for this acid.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 14 2010, 04:57 AM   #45
edith
Dragonrider


Weyrwoman
 
edith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
Default Re: Dragongirl

I wondered- and I know it's posted somewhere else- that they aren't actually eating the thread but that they are spitting an acid that dissolves the thread. The effect is likely to be quite close range and to someone a short distance off it may seem that the thread is being eaten.

My logic is:

Dragons chew a phosphine bearing rock. This rock is probably an apatite. The mineral is chewed and reacts with acid in the second stomach producing phosphine gas which, when in contact with water or acid AND a pressure change, ignites.

Now, it is possible for a firelizard to have to face thread without firestone when it is unable/ unwilling to go between. Therefore it makes sense to have a secondary system.

It has a stomach full of acid. It could spit this acid at the thread and dissolve it. It isn't as efficient as flaming- it probably has a far shorter range too but it sure beats being eaten!

In fact this could be the original mechanism and flaming actually came afterwards.

For whers, which are highly photosensitive, flaming isn't really an option, but they probably still have the second stomach and all the correct parts.
edith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 14 2010, 12:05 PM   #46
Canker
Member
Curlycorn
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: wv
Gender: M
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by semantre View Post
Anne clearly explained in CoP that greens could Impress men if the men were homosexual, so why would it be a stretch for blues to impress homosexual women? I'm more suprised that it took this long for it to be written about in one of the books!
Why is it a stretch that a homosexual women would be able to impress a bronze or a brown for that matter? Maybe she would have to be a really butch chick .

Everytime there is a gold egg on the hatching ground there are a bunch of girls standing around. You would think a green would run over and impress one of them at least sometimes. Just another one of those things that bug me.
Canker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15 2010, 11:03 AM   #47
Blue Rider 16
Senior Member
Dylanist
 
Blue Rider 16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Gender: M
Fan of: The Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: All The Weyrs of Pern
Default Re: Dragongirl

I will say that Dragongirl did at least wrap up some unanswered questions from the other books Todd has done. Though it does seem to me that it contradicts stuff in Dragonsblood. I mean the dragons keen when Drith goes between and dragons generally seem to know when a dragon has died and not just gone between. After all, the dragons don't keen when Lorana and Minith go between. It is suspected that going between times and THEN dying would be undetectable if the behavior of D'ram in The White Dragon is anything to go by. And if that's a contradiction between works that Todd himself has done, I won't even begin on the contradictions between his work and his mother's.
__________________
D'vin, rider of brown Denth
Blue Rider 16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15 2010, 11:14 AM   #48
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canker View Post

Everytime there is a gold egg on the hatching ground there are a bunch of girls standing around. You would think a green would run over and impress one of them at least sometimes. Just another one of those things that bug me.
The fanwanked explanation is that the mentality that makes for a good gold rider is not the same as would be looked for in queen rider (which makes sense, as their roles in the Weyr hierarchy are totally different) so the greens would not especially be drawn to girls deemed suitable for gold by Search dragons. With gold eggs being rare to begin with, once "girls ONLY stand for gold" became the norm, it's possible to think that girls were just rarely there to begin with, and the few who WERE placed in close proximity to the eggs weren't types that would attract the greens.
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15 2010, 11:14 AM   #49
Blue Rider 16
Senior Member
Dylanist
 
Blue Rider 16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Gender: M
Fan of: The Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: All The Weyrs of Pern
Default Re: Dragongirl

On another note: Does anyone want to bet that Todd is planning a reverse situation of Lessa's jump. Lessa jumped to the end of the previous Pass to bring riders forward. My personal bet is that Lorana is going to jump to the end of the current Pass to bring riders back. I don't know quite how she'd do it and still ensure protection in that time. It seems conceivable that she could take a bunch of riders back with her, leaving only a few in the Interval--because they'd have an entire Interval to recover. And Lorana's probably smart enough to figure out she could leap ahead by charting positions of objects in the sky. After all, Lessa, the Oldtimers, and the Masterharper of the Eighth Pass did so, and technology still seems a bit more advanced in the Third Pass than the end of the Eighth. But it will be interesting to see where Todd is going with this jump ahead (breeding and maturing grounds? crack forces?)
__________________
D'vin, rider of brown Denth
Blue Rider 16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15 2010, 06:14 PM   #50
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
I will say that Dragongirl did at least wrap up some unanswered questions from the other books Todd has done. Though it does seem to me that it contradicts stuff in Dragonsblood. I mean the dragons keen when Drith goes between and dragons generally seem to know when a dragon has died and not just gone between. After all, the dragons don't keen when Lorana and Minith go between. It is suspected that going between times and THEN dying would be undetectable if the behavior of D'ram in The White Dragon is anything to go by. And if that's a contradiction between works that Todd himself has done, I won't even begin on the contradictions between his work and his mother's.
(I think this was debated in another post) I figure that with the telepathic network between the dragons, they guess when a dragon has died. For instance, the thoughts of a dragon whose rider has just died will be something along the lines of "AAAAAAA NOOOOO", and then they'll go between, so any dragon who was listening in could guess as much, and then use their telepathy to ask another dragon to see whether they've turned up anywhere else.

A dragon who is just travelling somewhere will have normal thoughts, or nothing out of the ordinary, and as such it will be ignored. Lessa, D'ram and Moreta all went between times (which would be indistinguishable from between for a watching dragon), essentially vanished, but yet they were not keened for. Therefore, I think dragons keen when they see or hear something that proves the fatality (a screaming dragon or a vanishing rider during Threadfall). If nothing is out of the ordinary, they just ignore it.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16 2010, 03:30 AM   #51
jube
Dolphineer Journeywoman
 
jube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Australia
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragons of Pern
Now Reading: Puzzles and my thesaurus!
Cool Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Rider 16 View Post
On another note: Does anyone want to bet that Todd is planning a reverse situation of Lessa's jump. Lessa jumped to the end of the previous Pass to bring riders forward. My personal bet is that Lorana is going to jump to the end of the current Pass to bring riders back. I don't know quite how she'd do it and still ensure protection in that time. It seems conceivable that she could take a bunch of riders back with her, leaving only a few in the Interval--because they'd have an entire Interval to recover. And Lorana's probably smart enough to figure out she could leap ahead by charting positions of objects in the sky. After all, Lessa, the Oldtimers, and the Masterharper of the Eighth Pass did so, and technology still seems a bit more advanced in the Third Pass than the end of the Eighth. But it will be interesting to see where Todd is going with this jump ahead (breeding and maturing grounds? crack forces?)
Actually it's already been done when Jaxom and Ruth went "ahead" (can't remember whether it was several months or turns) to the Yokohama to check on the star charts so it is possible that Todd may use this idea for Lorana.

Next point is the deep ones ~ there has been no mention of whales etc in any other book written on Pern except for dolphins so the only thing that I can come up with, is that they were already on Pern in much the same way that firelizards were. Remember folks, as I said in a previous post, the settlers came to Pern as a pastoral society so horses, cows, dogs, cats, sheep etc would be the main perogratives to help them out. The dolphins came because they needed help in the seas and it was the best chance for the dolphins to survive as well. HOWEVER there were a ova/sperm bank for animals so for someone like Ted Tubberman or Kitty Ping or Wind Blossom, it is possible to resurrect something like a whale and not have it mentioned at the time, until now.

So far I've found it's better written then his earlier books and that surprised me.

BTW I got an email today, to say that "Dragon's Time" is going to the copy-editors so we may have more loose ends wrapped up perhaps or new ones added and at least a new book to read within the next 2 years, depending on what the editors come up with.
__________________
Dolphineer Journeywoman and part-time researcher....

Find me on ebay.....

Here'tis!
jube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16 2010, 04:38 AM   #52
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by jube View Post
HOWEVER there were a ova/sperm bank for animals so for someone like Ted Tubberman or Kitty Ping or Wind Blossom, it is possible to resurrect something like a whale and not have it mentioned at the time, until now.
I find that a hugely implausible idea. Ted was busy on his landlocked ranch being shunned most of the time - great for the work he did do, but not really a good location for hiding a whole breeding population of whales...

Because that's what you'd need.

Not just one, or half a dozen. Lots.

And what sort of whale would they be? Krill-filtering? Predatory? Does the Pernese ocean ecosystem have the capability of supporting either of these types of whale?

Okay, so maybe Kitti or Wind Blossom might have done it. Landing is also landlocked, and that's where they're based. And they have an eight-year window in which they can re-introduce an entire population of large sea-going mammals.

Whose wombs will they use? The Dolphins? I think not - they're too busy exploring the seas and coastlines and assisting the settlers getting used to the maritime side of their new home. When they're not doing that, they're be expanding their own dolphin gene pool either with natural breeding or with delphinic-IVF with additional sperm/ova. And whales are born b-i-i-i-i-g... Dolphins are sentient - can you imagine any of them signing up to that kind of thing?

Okay, so lets assume that problem is magicked away. WHEN do they do it? There's a heck of a lot of genetic engineering involved in the early days of the colony. Look how much time and effort it took to wake and breed all the animals they needed, plus the unseen and less sexy tasks of inserting boron-digestive processes into the cattle and adjusting to the local microfauna and bacteria and so on. Busy days. And a hobby-project of adding a brand new semi-sentient species squeezed into the hectic tasks of getting the planet up and running? Nuh-uh.


I really, really, really hope that the deep ones in question are the ocean-going relatives of flits and tunnelsnakes. They're mentioned - you know, the ones with net-like appendages instead of wings/middle limbs - and if the flits have the potential to be telepathic, why not the other natural top predators of the planet? Either that, or they ARE dolphins, just a reserved social grouping with a special, secret-cabal type name.
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16 2010, 04:56 AM   #53
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
And what sort of whale would they be? Krill-filtering? Predatory? Does the Pernese ocean ecosystem have the capability of supporting either of these types of whale?

Okay, so maybe Kitti or Wind Blossom might have done it. Landing is also landlocked, and that's where they're based. And they have an eight-year window in which they can re-introduce an entire population of large sea-going mammals.

Whose wombs will they use? The Dolphins? I think not - they're too busy exploring the seas and coastlines and assisting the settlers getting used to the maritime side of their new home. When they're not doing that, they're be expanding their own dolphin gene pool either with natural breeding or with delphinic-IVF with additional sperm/ova. And whales are born b-i-i-i-i-g... Dolphins are sentient - can you imagine any of them signing up to that kind of thing?
Well, Kitti Ping did write into the dragon PNA a program that made their overall size change with each generation; she could have done a similar thing for some dolphins (presumably a request of Tillek's, to aid with work in the distant future or something) and then later used that same code to help change the dragon PNA.

Alternatively, it occurs to me that Deep Sea life is probably the safest place for life on Pern, as Thread can't damage any part of it. Perhaps the Deep Ones are indeed native life, or maybe (somehow) an evolution of the dolphins? Probably not the latter, as it's barely enough time for such a change to occur, but still.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16 2010, 05:34 AM   #54
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almaron View Post
Well, Kitti Ping did write into the dragon PNA a program that made their overall size change with each generation; she could have done a similar thing for some dolphins (presumably a request of Tillek's, to aid with work in the distant future or something) and then later used that same code to help change the dragon PNA.
WHY?

They don't need to be bigger, and metabolically speaking, it's easier and more efficient to be smaller. Tampering with a genome in that way - in a manner that would impact future generations of ALL individuals, is an ethically very dodgy issue. Look at all the troubles the human population had with engineering -are the dolphins going to be any less concerned? Sure, they've all benefited from Mentasynth via their ancestors, but getting the whole population to agree on some dubious long-range plan that can't be justified within a single human lifespan? I'm afraid I really struggle to see much of a solution here; just more and more problems.


Quote:
Alternatively, it occurs to me that Deep Sea life is probably the safest place for life on Pern, as Thread can't damage any part of it. Perhaps the Deep Ones are indeed native life, or maybe (somehow) an evolution of the dolphins? Probably not the latter, as it's barely enough time for such a change to occur, but still.
Very much so for your first sentence!

And yes, dolphins aren't fruit flies or bacteria, or even finches... five hundred years won't change them recognisably unless there's some MAJOR evolutionary pressure going on down there in the deeps...
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16 2010, 12:21 PM   #55
LadyDeerskin
Member
Rocksquat
 
LadyDeerskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: curled up in a warm spot!
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern,Talents,Shellpeople
Now Reading: All The Weyrs of Pern, The Skies of Pern
Gold Re: Dragongirl

theres no mention of Kitti and her team messing with the dolphins at all. only of them working to get the farm animals adapted to the higher boron content of the plants, that i recall. about the Deep Ones-seems more likely that it might be something that already lived on Pern...there are weirdling things in our own seas that we have rarely seen, and thought extinct. i wouldnt be at all suprised if there are plenty more freaky things down there that no one has seen! gotta have some suprises left in life on earth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almaron View Post
Well, Kitti Ping did write into the dragon PNA a program that made their overall size change with each generation; she could have done a similar thing for some dolphins (presumably a request of Tillek's, to aid with work in the distant future or something) and then later used that same code to help change the dragon PNA.

Alternatively, it occurs to me that Deep Sea life is probably the safest place for life on Pern, as Thread can't damage any part of it. Perhaps the Deep Ones are indeed native life, or maybe (somehow) an evolution of the dolphins? Probably not the latter, as it's barely enough time for such a change to occur, but still.
LadyDeerskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16 2010, 12:23 PM   #56
Blue Rider 16
Senior Member
Dylanist
 
Blue Rider 16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Gender: M
Fan of: The Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: All The Weyrs of Pern
Default Re: Dragongirl

I'd say it also makes sense to be naturally evolving on Pern because of the telepathic traits. Didn't the colonists trace the fire-lizards and tunnel snakes back to a mutual aquatic ancestor? What if the Deep Ones were also a descendant of that creature? Is that even possible?
__________________
D'vin, rider of brown Denth
Blue Rider 16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16 2010, 12:49 PM   #57
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: Dragongirl

Isn't there some mention (Ddawn, Survey, the DLG, somewhere? I don't remember) of there being some indication of large marine life that no one knows much about? The technology to investigate it, and the ability to communicate with the only animals who'd be likely to run into them, the dolphins, is lost fairly fast (obviously gone by Moreta's time.) The most reasonable explanation is they're native fauna that haven't had any contact with the humans.
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16 2010, 01:00 PM   #58
LadyDeerskin
Member
Rocksquat
 
LadyDeerskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: curled up in a warm spot!
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern,Talents,Shellpeople
Now Reading: All The Weyrs of Pern, The Skies of Pern
Gold Re: Dragongirl

if it is at all like on earth, i wouldnt evolution to that size take more than the relatively short time the Pernese have been onplanet to evolve to any noticeable size? and,this is what bothers me about them being related to dolphins-dolphins are mammals, need air to breathe, and arent able to dive into the deepest parts of our seas. neither can the bigger cousins, like the orca. so how can a mammailan relation be able to actually live down there without air? if they were related, they would have to come up for air, and *someone* would have seen them while out fishing or whatever, in all that time. i dont know much at all about really deep sea critters, but im sure none of them are air breathers...too much chance of the bends or other problems going up and down, which would take a lot of time, too. a lot of hassel, for what?

its an interesting poser Todd has tossed out there, but i cant really see where he could go with it, that would save the current desperate situations.

things are convoluted enough as it is...re-reading the book a second time (taken me this long to bring myself to it..), and things like seeing how an untrained couple are scooting around Pern on a bronze dragon, without even the permission of the owner...talk about asking for trouble! even if someone had grown up in a Weyr, or had a little training, like Lorana, its not the same as having the full course. add to that the lack of bond-being able to mindspeak/empathy wouldn't fill in the blanks in the same way as an Impression bond- and this escapade would have been enough in the past for AMC to written a book about!

@ Araneth- interesting question! gonna go dig up my copy of DD, and look! but yes, i think it is something that was already onplanet...most logical explaination.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Rider 16 View Post
I'd say it also makes sense to be naturally evolving on Pern because of the telepathic traits. Didn't the colonists trace the fire-lizards and tunnel snakes back to a mutual aquatic ancestor? What if the Deep Ones were also a descendant of that creature? Is that even possible?
LadyDeerskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16 2010, 01:45 PM   #59
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: Dragongirl

Here're some relevant passages from Dragonsdawn:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne McCaffrey - Dragonsdawn
"Interesting. Do please give me your records, and I shall add them to the file." Pol shifted his body a bit. "Really, you know, this is a fascinating evolution. Especially if those plankton eaters the dolphins report could represent a common ancestor for the tunnel snakes and dragonets."

Mairi was surprised. "Tunnel snakes and dragonets?"

"Hmm, yes, for life evolved from the seas here on Pern just as it did on Earth. With variations, of course." Pol settled happily into his lecturing mode with an attentive if incredulous audience. "Yes, an aquatic eel-like ancestor, in fact. With six limbs. The first pair --" He pointed at the dragonet still clutching his morsel in his front pincers. " -- originally were nets for catching. See the action of the front claw against the stationary back pair. The dragonets dropped the net in favor of three digits. They opted for wings instead of stabilizing middle fins, while the hind pair are for propulsion. The dry-land adaptation, our tunnel snake, was to make the front pair diggers, the middle set remained balancers, especially when they have food in the front pair, and the rear limbs are for steering or holding on. Yes, I'm sure we'll find that the plankton eaters are like the common ancestors of our good friends here."
And another one - a post earthquake snippet from the Dolphins, indicating that the denizens of the deep may have some level of intelligence [though NOT that they're telepathic - the dolphins picked it up from their behaviour, not directly from their minds...]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne McCaffrey - Dragonsdawn
The dolphins were excited by the earthquake, for they had sensed its imminence from the reactions of the larger marine forms that scurried for safety, and they were pleased to learn of such awareness in the life of their new oceans.
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16 2010, 05:35 PM   #60
jube
Dolphineer Journeywoman
 
jube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Australia
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragons of Pern
Now Reading: Puzzles and my thesaurus!
Default Re: Dragongirl

Kath, it was only a point I thought of at the time, bearing in mind that you've found reference points in Dragonsdawn to back up your point of view, in regards to "deep ones". No worries, one is entitled to one's opinion and I haven't had a chance to look beyond my own nose at any of the books to back my own statements. Obviously Todd had picked up on those statements and added it to his story, in much the same way, you've picked up on it. Fair enough, I'll accept it.
__________________
Dolphineer Journeywoman and part-time researcher....

Find me on ebay.....

Here'tis!
jube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16 2010, 07:55 PM   #61
Eriflor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Gender: F
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath View Post
Here's a relevant passage from Dragonsdawn:

Originally Posted by Anne McCaffrey - Dragonsdawn
The dolphins were excited by the earthquake, for they had sensed its imminence from the reactions of the larger marine forms that scurried for safety, and they were pleased to learn of such awareness in the life of their new oceans.
Doesn't mean they're particularly large, just larger than most of the Pernese sea-life --- like a tuna is larger than most salmon. I don't think tuna are bigger than dolphins, are they? Anyway, it's something bigger than most Pernese sea-creatures. I think if there was anything as big as the dolphins, they'd have reported it.

They may be aware of seismic events the same way cats and dogs are supposed to be.
Eriflor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16 2010, 11:56 PM   #62
semantre
Dragonrider
Candidate
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern Series
Now Reading: Whatever I can get my hands on
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriflor View Post
Doesn't mean they're particularly large, just larger than most of the Pernese sea-life --- like a tuna is larger than most salmon. I don't think tuna are bigger than dolphins, are they?
According to National Geographic, the average size for an Atlantic Bluefin Tuna is 550 lbs, or 250kg. The average Bottlenose Dolphin (which I believe DDawn says the dolphins on Pern are) is around 1,100 lbs, or 500kg. So no, tuna are nowhere near bigger than dolphins.
semantre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 17 2010, 12:56 AM   #63
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by jube View Post
Kath, it was only a point I thought of at the time
[I've been sounding pompous, haven't I? Sorry.. ]

To be honest, Jube, you could easily still be the one who came up with the right idea - just because it ain't logical or was factually contradicted elsewhere in the series doesn't mean Todd hasn't used it! He and Anne manage to keep us on our toes with these things...

Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 17 2010, 08:08 AM   #64
jube
Dolphineer Journeywoman
 
jube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Australia
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragons of Pern
Now Reading: Puzzles and my thesaurus!
Default Re: Dragongirl

Kath, you pompous, you're not the only one to join that brigade. Done it myself on many an occasion *hehe*. No offense taken here. We just look at things differently and it's been awhile since I've read Dragonsdawn so it was very much a case of forgetting something had been said in an earlier book. I've just finished reading the chapter where it mentioned the "deep ones" and thought about what you said. It's more likely that the "deep ones" are something that BELONGS to Pern, rather then something brought over from another planet, even though the characters seem to think the deep ones came over with the colonists. Unless the deep ones means something like "the Tillek", a group of dolphins who are bigger then the rest and are their leaders.
__________________
Dolphineer Journeywoman and part-time researcher....

Find me on ebay.....

Here'tis!
jube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 17 2010, 08:30 AM   #65
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by jube View Post
We just look at things differently and it's been awhile since I've read Dragonsdawn so it was very much a case of forgetting something had been said in an earlier book.
My problem is that I spent so long writing first-pass fanfic that I forget that not everyone else remembers that book inside-out...!
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 17 2010, 06:08 PM   #66
jube
Dolphineer Journeywoman
 
jube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Australia
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragons of Pern
Now Reading: Puzzles and my thesaurus!
Default Re: Dragongirl

And I'm at the opposite extreme with the 9th pass but I've only written a couple of pieces and I've written them up here somewhere on MoM but that was quite awhile back and probably found in the forgotten realms of lost fandom

So what have you written? You got me interested enough to find out and wanting more.
__________________
Dolphineer Journeywoman and part-time researcher....

Find me on ebay.....

Here'tis!
jube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 18 2010, 01:17 AM   #67
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by jube View Post
And I'm at the opposite extreme with the 9th pass but I've only written a couple of pieces and I've written them up here somewhere on MoM but that was quite awhile back and probably found in the forgotten realms of lost fandom

So what have you written? You got me interested enough to find out and wanting more.
Well, there's DragonDays, of course... Be warned, it's 80,000 words. Easiest place to track down the rest of my stuff is via this link.
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 19 2010, 01:23 AM   #68
Canker
Member
Curlycorn
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: wv
Gender: M
Default Re: Dragongirl

Well I managed to grind my way to the end.

Best thing that could happen in the next book is Kindan, Fiona, and Lorana all having an accident right off the bat and dying.
Canker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 19 2010, 06:01 PM   #69
jube
Dolphineer Journeywoman
 
jube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Australia
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragons of Pern
Now Reading: Puzzles and my thesaurus!
Default Re: Dragongirl

I'm finished - although I did enjoy most of the book ~ better written then some of the previous 3rd pass books, I felt there were some parts that were particularly lacking and needed more oomph.

The first one being:

*What happen to taking action and actually getting on with the program like F'lar and Lessa did to get the weyrs up and running? At least they had the temacity to work out what was needed and actually doing it (refering to Question Song here and the 3rd pass has got a similiar thing going but nothing's been done about it, except maybe in a few short pages towards the end - stop hinting and actually get it done, instead of dragging it out for another book - the next one can always deal with the consequences like Dragonquest did for Dragonflight... The "oh sorry, all that time in that place has been used up so we can't go back to it" got a little sickening after several repeats of similiar sentences in various conversations ~ just a bit much ~ whatever happened to alternatives

Well that's all I can think of for the moment for pet peeves....
__________________
Dolphineer Journeywoman and part-time researcher....

Find me on ebay.....

Here'tis!
jube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 20 2010, 12:16 AM   #70
Canker
Member
Curlycorn
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: wv
Gender: M
Default Re: Dragongirl

The repeating dialog happened constantly. Fiona blabbing about how she is 17 turns old every other line and how she timed it, the weyrlings won't be ready to fight thread for 3 turns 2 in a pinch, I'm Fiona the princess and I can't sleep alone, the time being used up at the other weyr, and a few more I'm sure I'm forgetting. And what was with the pottery stuff? Did he just throw that in there to take up space? Didn't lead to anything in this book anyway and just seemed really out of place and pointless. I guess he will have to introduce another 10 year old that turns out to be a master pot maker and saves Pern with pottery in the next book.
Canker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 20 2010, 04:21 PM   #71
WandaSue
Member
Curlycorn
 
WandaSue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: East Tenn.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonrider series
Now Reading: Dragongirl
Default Re: Dragongirl

Ok , I may be dense, but can someone tell me why Fiona had to go to Telgar after D'gan led all the weyr to their deaths between? she went to be the Weyrwoman, but why?..didn't they have one already?...
WandaSue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 20 2010, 08:05 PM   #72
GinnyStar
Dolphineer
Craftmaster
 
GinnyStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wausau, WI USA, Central Standard Time
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, other SF works
Now Reading: Dragonback Bargain
Red face Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by WandaSue View Post
Ok , I may be dense, but can someone tell me why Fiona had to go to Telgar after D'gan led all the weyr to their deaths between? she went to be the Weyrwoman, but why?..didn't they have one already?...
Former Weyrleader D'gan order every dragon that could fly including all three of Teglar's queens. His Wyerwoman didn't have her queen keep the 'sick ones' from flying including her own sick queen. "I'm not to sure if she didn't have the power/common sense to have her and the other queens riders, or D'gan had them so 'under his thumb' that no of the other queen riders were willing to, keep all the sick one in the Weyr' Some on the order of Moreta's time when the Sr. Queen had the bronze stop helping in that time, the most Jr. Weyrwoman got the 'word out' which took 'guts' to send out the message. I hope this helped. http://books.google.com/books?id=Zxm...aining&f=false Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern!
__________________
Lover s s, s and friends
Lover of and beads,
http://www.change.org/profiles/GinnyStar
Dragoncave GinnyStar2
Jellied Dragons
Lair of Dragons
http://dragcave.net/user/GinnyStar2
Thanks! Others: None at this time
WIP http://archiveofourown.org/works/252259
http://www.daisy.org/learning-difficulties
GinnyStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 20 2010, 11:03 PM   #73
WandaSue
Member
Curlycorn
 
WandaSue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: East Tenn.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonrider series
Now Reading: Dragongirl
Default Re: Dragongirl

Oh, so, ALL the dragons/dragonriders were killed...I see now..thank you so much for clearing that up..
WandaSue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 25 2010, 05:29 PM   #74
GinnyStar
Dolphineer
Craftmaster
 
GinnyStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wausau, WI USA, Central Standard Time
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, other SF works
Now Reading: Dragonback Bargain
Thumbs up Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by WandaSue View Post
Oh, so, ALL the dragons/dragonriders were killed...I see now..thank you so much for clearing that up..
You are welcome, I sometime find hard to translated 'what in my mind into writing'
__________________
Lover s s, s and friends
Lover of and beads,
http://www.change.org/profiles/GinnyStar
Dragoncave GinnyStar2
Jellied Dragons
Lair of Dragons
http://dragcave.net/user/GinnyStar2
Thanks! Others: None at this time
WIP http://archiveofourown.org/works/252259
http://www.daisy.org/learning-difficulties
GinnyStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 26 2010, 09:17 AM   #75
jube
Dolphineer Journeywoman
 
jube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Australia
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragons of Pern
Now Reading: Puzzles and my thesaurus!
Default Re: Dragongirl

The "ode" about dragon mating can also be found in Dragonflight. Piece of trivial information I discovered when looking up the Question Song.
__________________
Dolphineer Journeywoman and part-time researcher....

Find me on ebay.....

Here'tis!
jube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 28 2010, 08:24 PM   #76
kevia
Ballybran Resident

Tuner
 
kevia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Somewhere in the USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Nimisha's Ship
Now Reading: Crystal Line
Default Re: Dragongirl

Well, I just finished the book. I've been saving reading this thread until I had finished. I guess I enjoyed it, but I did find many of the same things others here have mentioned pretty annoying.

I agree with Anareth in most of what she says. Especially that there is no real problem with a girl impressing a blue. It is pretty obvious to me that her blue will end up mating with Taria's green anyway. Pretty much a non-issue.

I found the strange mating flight of Fiona's queen pretty bizarre but not impossible.

I think what bothered me the most was that the story was just too linear. What I mean is that it is almost all Fiona's point of view. It doesn't show you anything that is going on anywhere else. Because of that it lacks depth and richness.

Also, like some others, I got really weary of the whole "We can't go back to Igen because we've already used that" thing. I'm sure that if they had tried they could have come up with something else.

And the whole "I'd rather give up my queen than....." stuff that both Fiona and Tullea said. Canon shows that it practically sends riders into shock to even think of losing their dragon. They'd never say something like that.

And the last thing I'll mention is that there is simply too much dialog. There needs to be more action. In fact, Todd tends to tell us the action through the character's talking about it rather than through their doing it, if you know what I mean. Oh, not always, but just too much.

Having said all that, I did enjoy the book. If I hadn't I wouldn't have finished it. And I do want to read the book that gives resolution to the predicament that they are in.
__________________
Kevia
kevia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 1 2010, 11:57 AM   #77
Masterharper Bridget
Senior Member
Kolnari
 
Masterharper Bridget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Orange CA USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Name one I don't have!
Now Reading: Deprived of time to read at moment.
Default Re: Dragongirl

Just got Dragongirl this weekend and read it through. On the whole I enjoyed it completely.

I have no issue with females on fighting dragons, no matter what their sexual oriantation is. It is the dragon that chooses their rider, and I don't think sex plays as big a factor as character and personality does. ( Even Fiona said it takes a special kind of personality to ride a blue, be it male or female. Blues are the smallest, quickest, and most agile of the dragons, which I suppose could equate to a rider needing a racecar driver mentality at times. There aren't all that many female professional racecar drivers, but they do exist.)

The "Deep Ones" could undoubtably be something that existed on Pern before the Colonists arrived, or it could be a variation created by Kitty Ping at the same time she created the dragons. As I recall tunnel snakes, firelizards, and some aquatict creature all shared a common ancestor, and if she could genetically alter firelizards to create dragons for the humans, why not do the same for the dolphins with the aquatic version. (Then again, if Deep Ones already existed, and had the same empathic ability of the firelizard, why wouldn't the dolphins hook up with them the way humans hookup with dragons. Who's to say Kitty didn't get the notions from the dolphins to begin with. )

As for repeating dialog, well, when was the last time you listened to the avarage group of seventeen year olds. They tend to repeat things a lot! In fact, given a fresh audience they repeat any given fact to adnausium, and this book does tend to be looking at everything from Fiona's veiw point. And there do tend to be a lot of people in this Pass who have to have things repeated continuously before it sinks in. There are some in every bunch but there tends to be an unusual number of them in this one I'll admit, but then they are under considerable stress too.

Things get said in the heat of the moment that are not meant quite the way they sound, so considering the fact that Lorana sacrificed her queen to find the cure which saved the dragons, perhaps it is understandable that even the dragons would feel a certian "debt" to her. But frankly I don't think Fiona would honestly be so quick to actually sacrifice her dragon as she verbilized at that particular moment. It was something said in defense of a friend, and even the dragon joined in, which is a sign of how young they both are. Even Fiona has moments when her age seems a bit of a mental issue for her.

The mating flight thing, with Lorana and Kindan? Well, as I remember Ruth told Jaxom he could hear his partners when they were together, but that was a limited contact. With Lorana being able to not only talk to but to feel all dragons, it might be a tad different. I imagine any connection to Kindan on the otherhand would be along those lines unless the dragon chose otherwise. (They obviously can choose who the want to communicate with as we've seen in The Masterharper.)

Timing it forward? I don't think it would come into play unless someone has come back from the future. And the way Tullea is acting half the time, it could very well be that she has come back to influance Lorana. She certianly shows all the signs of it. Maybe that's why she was so willing to let Lorana borrow her dragon to save her Weryleader. And an entire Wery does not just disappear! No dragon would disobey a queen, and no werywoman worth her salt would let sick dragons fly if she had any other choice. And because there is a plauge, people wouild double check coordinates before taking off to fight thread anyway, just because they wouldn't want to risk fever muddle coordinantes - Therefore it would seem fairly appearant that there was something more going on if an entire wery vanishes without a trace, which is what seems to have happened. Again it would seem timing is involved but was it Lorana or Tullea who has a hand in it?

The next couple of books will let us know.
Masterharper Bridget is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 1 2010, 12:11 PM   #78
semantre
Dragonrider
Candidate
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern Series
Now Reading: Whatever I can get my hands on
Default Re: Dragongirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterharper Bridget View Post
( Even Fiona said it takes a special kind of personality to ride a blue, be it male or female. Blues are the smallest, quickest, and most agile of the dragons, which I suppose could equate to a rider needing a racecar driver mentality at times. There aren't all that many female professional racecar drivers, but they do exist.)
I would just like to note that no, blues are not the smallest, quickest, or most agile. That would be greens. The only thing blues are ever noted for in Anne's books is search affinity. Having not read any of Todd's books, I don't know if he's given them anything more in the way of distinguishing skills.
semantre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 2 2010, 12:30 AM   #79
LadyDeerskin
Member
Rocksquat
 
LadyDeerskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: curled up in a warm spot!
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern,Talents,Shellpeople
Now Reading: All The Weyrs of Pern, The Skies of Pern
White Re: Dragongirl

they might have had a Queen's Wing, that went between with the rest of the fighters? but the part that really bothered me, aside from sending a teenager to run a Weyr, was the question of where are the young dragons of Telgar? why are they not mentioned? there was mentioned the one, D'gan's son, who was told to stay behind....he couldnt have been the only weryling. so where were the others?


Quote:
Originally Posted by WandaSue View Post
Ok , I may be dense, but can someone tell me why Fiona had to go to Telgar after D'gan led all the weyr to their deaths between? she went to be the Weyrwoman, but why?..didn't they have one already?...
LadyDeerskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 12 2010, 05:16 PM   #80
Sally
Junior Member
Muskie
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Denmark
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern
Default Re: Dragongirl

Oh my god.
This books sucks so much I can hardly find the words to describe it!!

I'm about halfway through, and I still haven't got a clue what the POINT of the book is?!
And everything that happens goes against the "canon" Pern.
Every.little.thing!

It's like a 12-year old girl wrote a fanfic.

I have never been so disappointed in a book.

When I think back to the best of Anne's writing, I seriously want to cry over this random pile of "plot" thrown haphazardly together.
Sally is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dragongirl (no spoilers) Samsara Book Collector's Meeting Room 29 Aug 10 2010 08:03 AM
Les Edwards to do art for cover of Dragongirl Hans Dragonriders of Pern 3 Sep 8 2009 11:58 AM
Dragonlove = Dragongirl Hans Dragonriders of Pern 16 Mar 26 2009 08:38 AM
Happy Birthday, Dragongirl! Nina Café Archives 14 Jul 8 2008 05:22 PM
Happy Birthday Dragongirl ghyle Café Archives 20 Jul 9 2007 12:04 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

A Meeting of Minds forum owned by Cheryl B. Miller.
All references to worlds and characters based on Anne McCaffrey’s fiction are copyright © Anne McCaffrey 1967-2008, all rights reserved, and used by permission of the author.