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Old Feb 13 2014, 07:26 AM   #1
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If you were writing a 'noir' fan-fic, which of Anne's heroines would you kill off, how would you dispose of them, and why?
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Old Feb 13 2014, 07:54 AM   #2
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Kylara, because everyone hates her.

And I'd frame Lessa for it, because Kylara slept with F'lar. The real killer would be Mardra's disgruntled son who wanted to oust Jaxom from Ruatha, and needed to bring the eastern Weyrs and the Harper Hall into disrepute first.

Bonus Batman Gambit result - If Robinton somehow gets Lessa off the hook, Meron gets blamed in her stead, which opens up a DIFFERENT hold for Jaxom to run instead of Ruatha (because he's Fax's son, after all, and Meron took over from Fax), so Mardra's son gets his home Hold back that way.

The weapon of choice would be tunnel-snake stew.
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Old Feb 13 2014, 04:29 PM   #3
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Well, at least it ain't Game Of Thrones.
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Old Feb 15 2014, 05:41 PM   #4
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I had one all dreamed up on a sleepless night but it was spoiled when I checked and found T'Gellen was not weyrleader.

I wanted the victim to be Mirrim, the perp T'Gellen's gold rider weyrwoman.
The execution of the plan to get rid of Mirrim would centre around a Flight.

You see, I haven't got round several obstacles yet so please don't point the faults out to me.

But this is a fun thread and I want to keep it open
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Old Feb 16 2014, 01:39 AM   #5
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But T'gellan IS a Weyrleader!
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Old Feb 16 2014, 06:14 AM   #6
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Well, I thought so to and I looked up Hans encyclopaedia:

Quote:
T'gellan: rider of bronze Monarth, Wingleader at Benden Weyr. Half Circle Sea Hold was under his responsibilities as Wingleader [H1/.].
T'gellan lead the wing searching for Thella and Giron after they tried to abduct Aramina [GWHD/61]. Weyrleader of Eastern Weyr [DoP/5:93].
OOOOO!!! Look up Mirrim in the Encyclopaedia and it says she is the lover of T'Gellen, weyrleader!!!!

Hans, a bit of editing needed there?
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Old Feb 16 2014, 06:16 AM   #7
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And who is his weyrwoman? I think I'll have to go to the book for that.
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Old Feb 16 2014, 06:21 AM   #8
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Victim: Sharra
Perp: Coranna's brother
Why: Coranna gave birth to Jaxom's son after he left her and the brother feels Coranna should be entitled to be Lady Holder and her son acknowledged as Heir. He does not realise Jaxom would probably recognise the son anyway.
How:
a gift to Sharra of a special perfume, made out of flowers grown in the hillside holding
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Old Feb 16 2014, 10:28 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily View Post
Well, I thought so to and I looked up Hans encyclopaedia:



OOOOO!!! Look up Mirrim in the Encyclopaedia and it says she is the lover of T'Gellen, weyrleader!!!!

Hans, a bit of editing needed there?
Nope, because it covers two parts of the timeline. He was a Benden Wing leader prior to the founding of Eastern Weyr on the southern continent.
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Old Feb 16 2014, 10:30 AM   #10
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And who is his weyrwoman? I think I'll have to go to the book for that.
Talina, who impressed Arwith out of the egg that Jaxom rescued. She's Ruathan, and a bit on the indolent side...at least enough to delegate a lot of her job to Mirrim, anyway.
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Old Feb 16 2014, 04:40 PM   #11
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I still have a four page thread titled Why does Talina let Mirrim get away with it? on archive from the old kitchen table
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Old Feb 16 2014, 04:41 PM   #12
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ooooo Hans. Where can I see it?
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Old Feb 16 2014, 04:42 PM   #13
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Nowhere because it is in teh old archives on my coputer but I could paste the text here if you are really interested.
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Old Feb 16 2014, 04:43 PM   #14
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Kath: I bow to your superior knowledge of all things Pern

Hans: Yes please. I probably saw it then unless it's from the very early days
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Old Feb 16 2014, 04:53 PM   #15
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Why does Talina let Mirrim get away with it?
Topic dates from May 2003

Mariah:
Just wondering what you think about Talina. Obviously with a more assertive WW, Mirrim wouldn't get away with poking her nose everywhere like she does. Is Talina just happy that someone else stands by T'gellan at various functions where he'd normally be accompanied by his WW?

Tell me what you think!


Lector:
I don't quite understand Mirrim "getting away" with anything in this particular context. She's pushy and tactless, yes, but she and Path would never be able to stand up to a direct order from Talina and Arwith. For that matter, they wouldn't even be able to withstand repressed displeasure, since Talina could easily influence her dragon away from Monarth during a mating flight. Moreover, if there was resentment bubbling beneath the surface, you'd expect a) the Weyr to be on edge (no sign of that), b) a new Weyrleader (but Monarth has flown Arwith consistently for over, what, a decade?), or even c) interference from the other Weyrs, particularly Benden (but nobody seems to regard the situation as a problem).

From what little evidence AM has given us, it seems at least plausible to conclude that Talina doesn't just tolerate Mirrim; she's actively encouraging her to do whatever it is that she's doing. Strictly speaking, aside from showing up at functions with T'gellan, there isn't any indication that Mirrim has taken over any of Talina's actual duties (record-keeping, for example). My own theory has always been that Talina is using Mirrim as a go-between of sorts: both DoP and SOP suggest that younger riders feel comfortable approaching Mirrim (both T'lion and Tai think of her as someone to ask for advice) but not, perhaps, Talina. Talina's extreme and apparently typical reserve at the Weyrleaders meeting--someone who is always "outside" the group--may be a hint that interpersonal relationships are not her strong suit. Mirrim could therefore act as a mediator or conduit, allowing Talina to keep tabs on what's going on in the Weyr. Obviously, until AM chooses to give us a full explanation, all we can do is make educated guesses...

(I'd add, incidentally, that what little we've seen of Talina suggests someone who would like, perhaps even admire, a very brash and pushy woman like Mirrim--who is, after all, basically good-hearted. Certainly, a lot of shy women of my acquaintance really enjoy having female friends who are blunt, straight-ahead, up-front types: there's something fascinating and even reassuring about such assertiveness to people who feel unable to act the same way.)


Mariah:
Good points, Lector. I'm just wondering why T'gellan's still the WL. Amazing what women manage to impress queens in Anne's Pern, if what you're saying about shy women applies to Talina (BTW, I used to be painfully shy, except around my few friends, until I started college. After that, I've been more the brash type who says what she thinks.

Dafydd:
Maybe Talina is in ways like Jora - an incompident and lazy WW, who's happy enough for Mirrim to do all the hard work?

Mariah:
Dafydd, you might very well be right.

A more accurate question would be, why does Arwith let Menorth get away with flying Path continuously? Mirrim and T'gellan are weyrmates, which to me implies that Menorth usually flies Path, possibly always, given the relationship between the riders. Arwith should just show some spunk and pick another bronze, or maybe even a brown just to show him!

Dafydd:
Maybe Menorth, is quite simply THAT GOOD! He might be so much better than the other bronzes that He wins no matter.

Eyes of Azarias:
The dragons of weyrmates do not necessarily mate each other, or at least not constantly. They might, and then again, they might not. The Weyrs don't consider having sex with someone else during a flight to be "cheating." Weyrmates aren't quite like married couples on Pern. It's not an entirely exclusive relationship, nor is it always assumed to be permanent.

The Harper:
I still wonder sometimes if Eastern Weyr is just basically an overflow weyr for the rest of Pern. Ok so they have matting flights but its understood that due to his experience T'gellan reamins Weyrleader no matter what and as that is the case he is free to choose his weyrmate. He's chosen Mirrim and personally I'm delighted although I would like to hear how many times Path rose before Monarth caught her .

Chiya:
I'm thinking that maybe Talina's just a pushover. But then again since I have had an active hatred for Mirrim ever since Dragonsong (first one I read). I think that whoever said that T'gellan is just indulgent is right. And that too kind of grates me because I adore T'gellan.

Mpatane:
Well, I'm just gonna wait for the next DoP book to come out...you know the sequel to Dolphins of Pern and hope Talina is discussed more.

Whenever I refer to Skies of Pern, I always try to remember that the characters are usually seen thru the eyes of Tai...and she isn't exactly the most objective person in the book.


The Harper:
Ok so why don't you like Mirrim ?

Anareth's Rider:
Well, I don't like Mirrim because she's the kind of pushy abrasive person whom, when I meet them in real life, I fantasize about pushing onto the third rail of the Metro just so they'll SHUT UP. She's an arrogant little snit who doesn't know her place. Doesn't matter if she's compentant or not, she ought not to be so full of herself.

I don't know why Talina puts up with her, but Lector is right, we don't know that Mirrim has taken over all her duties--except where T'gellan's concerned. I would hazard a guess (just based on Anne's track record) that Monarth does in fact fly Path most of the time--Anne's characters tend to be very tolerant in their view of "cheating" except when it applies to them. But of course Monarth has to keep flying Arwith or T'gellan won't be Weyrleader. I hope we find out in the next book that Talina has her own weyrmate and is perfectly happy T'gellan consistently blows her off for a green rider, and not that she's some horrible person. We've been there, done that, and it would feel like Talina was just being made out to be bad so that T'gellan and Mirrim have an excuse.


Andrea:
Maybe it's a threesome. Maybe Talina and T'gellen are together for convienience. He's a good Weyrleader, and she's the WeyrWoman, and she thinks that he should stay the WeyrLeader, kinda like the relationship between Moreta and Sh'gull. It's a business arangement. Nothing wrong with that. You find a system that works, and you stick with it.

Becky:
T'gellan, Mirrim and Talina obviously have a good working relationship. Although it's true that Mirrim is pushy I wouldn't say that she was arrogant. In the earlier books I would say that she was just the opposite, the person who does everything hoping that someone will approve of her and resorting to "pushing" to cover up her insecurities. She has personallity traits that frequently show up in children who have been bounced around from one home to another. AM makes fostering sound really appealing but it doesn't usually do a lot for a kid's sence of security. Especially when you consider that you only hear about foster mothers, nothing about the men involving themselves with the welfare of the children, especially the really young ones.

But to get back to T/M/T, we just don't have enough information about Talina. We know that she is "hold bred", not much of a joiner, and according to Tai, lazy. Being hold bred may mean that she isn't comfortable with all aspects of weyr life and she has solved that problem by teaming up with T'gellan and Mirrim. Or maybe she has a relationship with a non-rider whch would make T'gellan a perfect choice as WL. Afterall there's no reason why they can't be friends and working partners without have a physical relationship outside of mating flights. The fact that she doesn't mix well tends to give credence to the theory that she is shy. Then again she might just be lazy or both shy and lazy. We'll never know unless Anne writes more about her.


Mariah:
Well, I guess hold bred women are used to the idea of sticking to one man who can have several others on the side. Maybe she just doesn't like sex unless the dragons are involved... Or maybe she does have someone else hidden away, a man so beneath her station that she can't be seen in public with him... Like one of the herders who regularly bring herdbeasts to the Weyr for dragonfood! I really hope Anne'll write more about Talina in the next book!

Joliee:
So, if Mirrim is so efficient and wonderful and supposedly leads the weyr as weyrwoman substitute, why and how do we find F'lessan thinking about what a bad job she did explaining certain things to Tai. Why was it Mirrim doing that? and how could she stuff it up so badly, especially as she would have been in the same situation as Tai.
eg, first female greenrider, with most of the men involved in the flight not used to having a female as the other half.

She also took over with trying to discipline Tai (the furs thing), which defintely wasn't her job.

I freely admit that I believe that Talina does not perform all the expected duties she should do but allows others to do them instead. But I also believe that she really doesn't mind Mirrim and T'gellan's relationship. Maybe Talina has a little bit on the side?


Eyes of Azarias:
She's not necessarily a "Weyrwoman substitute." As others have pointed out, we don't <i>know</i> how much she does at Monaco Bay. All we really hear about are the public duties that seem to be more the Weyrwoman's territory. As for explaining mating flights to Tai, since Tai is a greenrider and Mirrim is a greenrider, it makes sense to me. Why Mirrim didn't explain certain things well? Probably because she never thought about it. She was Weyrbred, used to at least the concept of flights. Doubtlessly she wasn't a virgin when Path first mated. It simply never occured to her that a woman could be so hung up about sex as to have Tai's trouble without turning out like Brekke was before Wirenth's flight. Tai isn't very Brekke-ish, so Mirrim didn't have many signs to go on. Mirrim pretty much assumed that she would explain the basics and the rest would come naturally.

Don't take F'lessan's thoughts about Mirrim as the gospel truth. He and his buddy Jaxom pretty roundly disdain her (not without reason, admittedly).


The Harper:
Sex education is another thorny problem, even now in some schools it's either not given at all or is just brushed under the carpet. MAybe Tai did know but was simply scared oonand that didn't help on her first time in a matting flight. I think Mirrim would have told her but by Annes standards remember how Lanzceki didn't warn Kiilashandra about link shock to warn is to inhibit.

Kate M:
The thing is though, that when there's a character you like (or feel some kind of affiliation towards) you tend to take their opinions and views onboard much more than the characters you perhaps don't like as much.

They might not be the right opinions, but something I like about Anne's books is that because the characters are so diversified there are different characters that some fans may take to and others don't, therefore creating very different opinions on the same things.

This seems to be exactly the case here, where there are Mirrim fans and Mirrim...erm...dislikers (!?[IMG]file://localhost/Users/Hans/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0/clip_image002.png[/IMG]).

Because I prefer F'lessan to Mirrim his opinions tend to carry more weight with me, and if he has something bad to say of her, then I personally am more likely to agree with him than not.

I hope that all made sense, and I haven't completely gone off on one!


Noemi:
Part the First: F'lessan doesn't think Mirrim flubbed her explanations to Tai. He is bewildered that mating is such an unhappy thing for her, and at first he assumes that the only way this could be possible would be that **nobody** ever discussed the situation with her. He huffs and puffs about "why didn't *Mirrim,* at least, sit down and tell you xyz?!?" This suggests that he would have *expected* such behavior from Mirrim. Tai gets a little ruffled by F'lessan's outburst (which does carry an unfortunate patronizing undertone), and defends Mirrim, informing F'lessan that M **did** tell her xyz, thankyouverymuch, but Tai is her own person and rejected that advice.

Part the second: the POV in much of SOP centers on F'lessan much of the time. F'lessan is falling in love for the first time and with a woman who is his opposite in many respects. As the song goes, "when a man loves a woman, she can do no wrong -- turn his back on his best friend if he puts her down." F'lessan has never been an intellectual -- he's more been a doer and a people guy. So when he uncovers an attitude in his intriguing new girlfriend which he can't relate to, his first instinct to make sense of it is to assume that she thinks this way because someone has failed to do something or to correctly relate something to Tai. He zeroes in on Mirrim, which is pretty savvy and reasonable **not because he is assuming her to be difficult** but because in her unique position, Mirrim is the most logical person who would be qualified to advise Tai.


Greer:
I seem to remember reading some negative things about Talina in AtWoP-you know, lazy, unmotivated, not a great weyrwoman... so in the end, maybe it does make the other dragonriders feel a bit better that Mirrim is there to help-after all, we already know that Mirrim can handle the nitty-gritty details. If Talina can't, then she and Mirrim probably just balance each other out.
Also, in Dragonseye, doesn't someone mention just getting a different partner for mating flights? Maybe that's the sort of thing that happens with Talina-she has her own weyrmate so she doesn't care about T'gellan and Mirrim.


Anareth's Rider:
Greer, as they mentioned above, we only see Talina from Tai's eyes--she's the one thinking that, and she's not really an unbiased source. Probably very biased, in fact, as she hasn't had the greatest time as a dragonrider thus far. So we really don't know anything about Talina personally.

Mariah:
Talina's definitely the 9th Pass character I'm most curious about. I hope that Anne'll give her a major role in the sequel to DoP she'll hopefully write soon.


Greer:Actually, I seem to remember Talina being mentioned a few times in AtWoP by other people who said the same things Tai did....


Ramandu's Daughter:

My opinion is that Talina is a very weak willed woman while Mirrim is very strong willed. It is so easy for a strong willed person to totally steamroll a weak willed person.

As for why Talina doesn't take a more "active" role as weyrwoman, it is likely tied to her weak will. This is often seen as lazy and unmotivated. She does not have the inner strength to assert herself, and therefore is content to let others run the show. On her behalf, she is probably an outstanding record keeper, as that is something she can do by herself they way she wants it.



The Harper:
Ok again I ask a question.
If you guys can have female dragon riders on dragons that Anne didn't originally allow for ie Brown and Blue, why can't Anne herself who after all created Pern have a Weyr which was created purely to fight thread over landing and the surrounding area's staffed by the likes of T'gellan and co?
In other words you put in a man who wouldn't stand much chance of becomimg a weyrleader whilst Mnementh held sway gets his chance. I think He and Mirrim were already weyrmates before Eastern was founded and maybe Talina has a non dragonriding mate. Eastern could even have a rotating staff of wings to give everyone the chance to move about and not become stale

Talina may also be one of those Weyrwomen who is like the worst bits of both Brekke and Kylara somehow forced together.


Mpatane:
Actually, I seem to remember Talina being mentioned a few times in AtWoP by other people who said the same things Tai did....

Really? AtWoP mainly involved the Avias project and I really don't recall Talina being mentioned at all. Just out of curiousity, do you remember the character and situation that involved those statements?

My opinion is that Talina is a very weak willed woman while Mirrim is very strong willed. It is so easy for a strong willed person to totally steamroll a weak willed person.

This I can't believe. Talina rode a SENIOR gold dragon. To ride a gold dragon, one has to have a great will to be able to control her during a mating flight and keep her calm so the rest of the dragons in the Weyr don't suffer. Talina was never accused of mistreating her dragon or not being able to control her -- and if she were guilty of that, I can hardly see that being left out of Tai's thoughts.

More likely than not, Talina and Mirrim share the duties because Mirrim is given special consideration for her skills and the fact she and T'gellan share a bed. Because, come on folks, Mirrim is on such a power trip, (in Skies) she felt as though it was her right to berate Tai even when 2 dragons stood as Tai's witnesses. And dragons don't lie. Now people, they have the same rank, the only person who should be able to berate Tai for dereliction of duty is her Wingleader and Weyrleaders -- no way did Mirrim have the power.

Now, what I'd like to see is a different bronze dragon to fly Arwith, Weyrleadership switch over to a different man...and see how Mirrim copes.


Voodoo Weasel:



*grins* At least that's the sterotype. Obvisually, Talina lacks a little something, because she's letting a *insert gasp here* green rider to do her job.


Noemi:
Mirrim was ad-hoc leader of that team during the evacuation, and because Tai was not forthcoming about how she came to be in possession of the skins, Mirrim *did* have the responsibility to pursue the matter. Nobody was supposed to be wasting time with nonessential personal items. It would have been bad for discipline and morale to let it slide. F'lessan was out of line in trying to protect his girlfriend, **especially** because she hadn't actually done wrong.

The Harper:
Letting is the word i want to play with here. Letting my eye the woman is lazy and feckless shes got a gold and dont give a fig she's like kylara needs a good kick were it hurts fancy dumping on poor lil Mirrim

Eriflor:
Don't forget this was a NEW start-from-scratch weyr. T'gellan was probably sent along as provisional Weyrleader, with his own wing and maybe a couple of others (I think the details are in Renegades). Talina and Arwith went because Ramoth wouldn't share her bronzes with too many queens, and there may have been one or two queens drafted from other weyrs. Talina probably became Weyrwoman because her queen was first to rise --- and maybe she was just too young for the job.

TunnelSnake:
That sounds about right to me. I remember reading that T'gellan was sent along as temporary Weyrleader until a queen rose. Mirrim probably played the role of Weyrwoman for a while until the queen mating flight, so maybe Talina let her keep some of the responsibilities since she was used to the Weyr and what to do.

Mpatane:
I can see your point, but one thing bothers me about Mirrim's behaviour in this case. The dragons who were queried regarding this matter supported Tai. This was communicated to Mirrim and yet she still wanted to berate and probably punish Tai.

Mirrim was willing to supersede a dragon's testimony for her own emotional judgement.

Tai was was forthcoming as she could possibly be! She really didn't know how the skins got there. I don't think F'lessan was out of line. He knew the dragons vouched for Tai and took their word for it. Dragons don't lie.

Personally, with dragons willing to vouch for Tai, I think Mirrim's behaviour was irrational.


Noemi:
Hmm... and I can see *your* point, in turn. It's always pretty nice to start off disagreeing and find the areas of common ground.

Mpatane:
I hate to play the age game again, but in Skies, isn't Jaxom at the very least in his mid-20's? Didn't Jaxom and Talina impress at the same hatching? So, shouldn't that make Talina at least in her early 30's? By this point in Pern history, Talina was probably a rider for nearly 8 years...i don't have any of my books handy so I can't cross reference the Turns in tWD with SoP.

Being a rider for nearly 8 years and working as a junior goldrider in Lessa's Weyr for most of that time probably made Talina more than capable for handling whatever challanges awaited her in the Southern Continent -- in fact, I'm wondering if her skills as a junior weyrwoman got her the posting in the first place.

Overall, I still think there is a delicate balance when it comes to duties and personalities in Talina's Weyr.


The Haroer:
this is exactly what i have been saying but get told no that's not the way. Eastern was created in ATWOP by the way.

Eriflor:
You're right, I keep forgetting the passage of time between DQ and ATWOP (let alone SoP).

I don't know about Talina training under Lessa, though. Arwith was the queen that F'lar said they'd have to find a home for in DQ, due to Ramoth's dislike of sharing her bronzes. I assumed she'd been transferred to another weyr before her first mating flight. Due to my blind spot about the passage of time, I thought the new weyr might be Eastern, but they may have initially gone to a weyr where Talina was kept firmly under the thumb of an Oldtimer weyrwoman and not allowed many responsibilities.

She may also have been the only Eastern queenrider at first, and Mirrim, with her nursing skills and organisational abilities, would have been a great help to her. Possibly a good friend too --- they both rode female dragons, had similar problems, and weren't that far apart in age.

Stagsno5:
Could it be that the reason why that Monarth continuously flies Arwith is because the rest of the weyr would prefer to have T'gellan as weyrleader? After all, I do recall that F'lar didn't become a weyrleader sooner because the other riders didn't want an inexperienced "boy" to lead them, and so Hath flew Nemorth. So it could well be that the weyr has as much to do with the pairing as a rider's preference. Especially if the queen rider in question doesn't have a particular preference for a bronze rider, (even the inexperienced Lessa would have preferred F'lar to R'gul at her first mating flight!)

Moreta is another rider who had no preference to a rider and so landed up with Sh'gall, who although a fine leader during threadfall (had an "uncanny instinct") wasn't socially the leader that Moreta would have wanted (he was somewhat overbearing!) Time and again, people said to Moreta that SHE should choose a rider than to have Sh'gall who wasn't really suited to her!

Therefore Talina could well be indecisive and so cannot decide who should be her weyrleader, and in the same vein, that indecisiveness could explain as to why Mirrim takes on so much responsibility.

Although it could be said that Mirrim is the sort of personality that looks for responsibility, as her upbringing suggests. Brekke and Manora, the two women close to her while she was growing up were women who took on a lot of duties. That work ethic could be ingrained, and so it is very hard not to seek responsibility. (My grandmother and great grandmother are/were women who 'have' to work. My gran is 70 and in ill-health, but it is very hard for her to take it easy because of the up-bringing that she had.) Once you are used to a certain way of life, it is very hard to break free of that mould. I can see that Mirrim, who had a lot of training in organising a weyr, would be very "itchy" if all of a sudden she had a lesser responsibility as a green rider than as a headwoman. It would be natural for her, therefore, to take on those extra duties. Again, it could well be that Talina is not as good an organiser as Mirrim is, and so is happy for her to take on the jobs that she would rather not do! You would have to be a strong person to be able to be a manager of a weyr full of strong and vibrant personalities! With that thought, Mirrim would be a perfect candidate for that kind of job!


Pff, that's just the first page
Trip along memory lane eh, Lily?
Recognise some of the names?


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Old Feb 16 2014, 05:03 PM   #16
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Default Re: Writing challenge

continued

Greer:
Really? AtWoP mainly involved the Avias project and I really don't recall Talina being mentioned at all. Just out of curiousity, do you remember the character and situation that involved those statements?

I can't remember exactly where, but I think that maybe she was helping with part of the project. I do remember Mirrim and T'gellan both getting called in and I think Talina was called in with them and she helped somehow.
Please remember that this is all my rather foggy memory. I could be wrong!! :rolleyes:


Mariah:
I like your reasoning!

She's a bit too abrasive for my liking, but maybe that's just a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I'm pretty outspoken in RL, and in my early twenties (once I'd overcome my teenage shyness) I was pretty tactless, and nasty with it too. Fortunately the past 10 years have tempered me just a bit.


The Harper:
T'gellan is a good leader, there's no doubting it. Mirrim was a real SNERT. But the Weyr works whatever the arrangement


Remember in Moreta that Leri said that girl has to let her feelings be known to her dragon. This was vis a vis choosing a weyrmate to spend the interval with. Sh'gall was a great leader and during fall it's the Weyrleader who leads not the senior Weyrwoman. Also in Red Star Rising K'vin and Zulaya weren't in each others company much at the begining of the book. So the actual LEaders dont have to be bosonm buddies just their dragons have to mate.


Mariah:
Harper, I agree. Leaders don't have to be bosom buddies, but at least in the 9th Pass (and in the 6th, judging by the people's reaction at Sh'gall's absence from Alessan's first Gather) the leaders are supposed to attend public functions together. Going to such functions is just as much a part of being a WW as keeping the records.

The Harper:
I see what you mean like a Royal Couple or say a Presidential Couple circa 1960 -63.

Mpatane:
I agree. I think this is where a lot of people can't understand why T'gellan keeps publicy partnering himself with Mirrim when he is Weyrleader. By including her in all official and public Weyr business he is telling all the leaders of Pern that the greenrider he loves and is sleeping with, is just as important a leader as Talina the Senior Weyrwoman.

Not only is there a conflict of interest here, but I can see how it can be confusing to both dragon and humans as to who to go to for help in that Weyr. Mirrim may command the respect of the people, but the dragons will never follow Path, a mere green in draconic hierarchy. Ultimately when it comes to leadership it is about RANK. Its really about who the dragons will follow and listen to in a time of danger. Instinctively, they will not follow a green. Simple as that. Their Weyrleader may order them to follow a green, but thats a different story. But a Weyrleader's hold on leadership is tenacious at best since he is at the mercy of general Weyr opinion and the preferences of the Senior Queen.

It makes me wonder how a dispute is solved when Talina and Mirrim disagree. I can see Mirrim pushing her opinion mercilessly b/c she thinks she's right and I can see Talina chafing under her presumption and raising tensions in the Weyr thru Arwith. Remember Talina IS Ruathan after all! All female Ruathans ended up as women with strong wills demonstrated sometime in their lives. (i.e. Lessa, Mardra, Sorka, yes and even Aramina (at least when it came to her son). So with Anne's propensity to write Ruathan women in this manner, I find it difficult to assume Talina is lazy. Talina grew up in a time where she and her family had to deal with Fax as an overlord. With her background I find it hard to believe that she would follow the route of laziness when she had been working hard her entire life (as opposed to Kylara who was a pampered hold child).

Also, we don't really get a sense of the general feeling of Monaco Weyr (that was the name right?) the way we do with Southern Weyr, when Kylara and T'bor ran it. Perhaps tensions were high, perhaps Mirrim and Talina butted heads more than once. We can never really know until Anne or Todd give us a clue.


Eriflor:
For the record, I don't think Talina was of the Ruathan bloodline, which is what counts. She was just FROM Ruatha, possibly a small holder's daughter.

The fact is, we know very little about Talina --- she came from Ruatha, she impressed Arwith on the same day Jaxom impressed Ruth, and suddenly she's Weyrwoman at Eastern. Not much to go on.


Mpatane:
Regardless of whether or not she was blood, the Ruathans in general were considered 'a breed apart' since they welcomed dragonless riders within their borders and bred with them. Because Talina had a high enough empathy/psychic ablility (whatever you want to call it) to impress a gold is proof that illustrates her being from Ruatha Hold is relevant.

The fact remains that as a child Talina grew up in an envirnoment with Fax as an overlord and also, she present for the rebuilding of Ruatha under Lytol's management. I hardly think we can compare Talina to Kylara who was a pampered Lord Holder's child from the day she was born.


Carter:
It's not "regardless" as you put it. Yes, many Ruathan weyrwomen are strong. That is known. By no means all of them, though, as you said in your earlier post. Just the one's we know about. It's not very realistic or plausible to say that every Ruthan WW is the most incredible very best. I'm sure there were plenty that were average. Supposedly, every woman that Impresses has enough potential to be a strong WW, regardless where she's from. In other words, you can't just assume a woman is better because she's from Ruatha. Ruatha undoubtedly is 'better' by the belief of the dragonriders, but being of Ruathan blood, not just living there. I don't know... I don't think I'm saying what I mean correctly, but there's just something flawed or not right about your last sentence of this quote. It's like saying because they won the election, every president we've ever had is the very best one (that's scary). Or maybe (and possibly more correctly correlated) that all Democratic candidates are always going to better than Republican candidates just because they're Democrats.

Ughh... only one cup of coffee, can't think straight...


Mpatane:
Carter, I'm just following Anne's own trends when she writes Pern. So far there hasn't been one 'bad', lazy, incompetant, etc. dragonrider (male or female) from that region on Pern. Mardra had her problems but I think those were mainly based on culture/time shock. Now unless Anne writes a 'negative' Ruathan dragonrider, I'm more disposed to think that Talina (esp. since it is a safe assumption she and her family were part of the rebuilding of Ruatha under Lytol) is a very hard worker.

Now, I'm not saying that this means Mirrim is any less of a hardworker. What I'm saying is that Mirrim probably takes the extra responsibility on herself and justifies it by being in a position that would exempt her from punishment for overstepping her authority. Given Anne's propensity to write Ruathans as reliable, strong, and hardworking, I rather doubt Talina doesn' also fit that mold. Mirrim probably help 'setup' that Weyr and since she sleeps with T'gellan, when Talina came and officially became Weyrwoman, Mirrim probably found it too difficult to abandon those responsibilities -- even if they weren't rightfully her own.



Carter:

I don't think Talina's necessarily a bad WW. I don't think we know enough about her. I do think she's below the high average set by other Ruathans, though. I think she's merely an average person. Not bad, just not extraordinary. What little we do know speaks against her being WWW (Wonder WeyrWoman).

While I know you don't hold her thoughts too high because of her hangups, Tai did think of Talina as lazy. You dispute that by mentioning how Talina was exhausted from working on rebuilding.

#1) I don't think you can totally discount Tai's opinion - she's not that screwed up (not to mention her only real hang up is sexual) and she has an undeniable work ethic (which actually strengthens her opinion).

#2) You can't use Talina's exhaustion necessarily as a extraordinary merit to her either. Fact of the matter is everyone was working long hours on the rebuilding of the weyr. Everyone was exhausted. No doubt Talina worked - she could hardly get out of it. All it means is that she pulled her weight.

I do agree with your assessment of Mirrim in your last post. I have to say, though, I don't think she's where she is solely because of T'gellan. Sure, he has some to do with it, but Mirrim's always held an unofficial 'rank' higher than her technical rank. She's earned it by hard work. I think no matter where she was, Path or no Path, she'd be pretty much be in the same type position. She's just that type of person.

That, and my opinion is I just don't think Pern is nearly as hung up on rank as you are.



Mariah:

It would be really interesting to see a threadfall from Mirrim's perspective.

Maybe Pern people aren't as hung up on rank as some of us here (like myself for Pern, not in RL) but the thing is, Weyr hierarchy depends on dragon hierarchy, and you can't have a leader on a dragon no other dragons listen to. I don't like the idea much, but it's just a fact of Pern we have to live with that riders on chromatics aren't supposed to be leaders (don't even get me started on the absurd notion that gay men can't be leaders because of their sexuality, but unfortunately that's the way Anne wrote it...).


Mpatane:
Carter:

Actually, I think that Mirrim was sent south b/c T'gellan and she were probably Weyrmated as soon as Path was able to participate in a mating flight. Why else would Lessa and F'lar want to give up such a capable green rider unless they were going to transfer her weyrmate? Weyrmates are granted transfers to keep everyone happy (F'nor says as much to Brekke in DQ).

Personally, opinions and who states them DO matter. Mirrim definitely has a low opinion of F'lessan (at the beginning of Skies) and doesn't keep this from Tai. But this opinion is based on his activities with other woman and not on his dedication as a dragonrider. I think Tai's rank isolates her from Talina and Mirrim's unique 'position in power' gives Tai more exposure to her. Tai is young, sexually abused and probably isolates herself from Weyr politics.

Also, I was merely saying that Talina was most likely a competant Weyrwoman, not that she was Wonder Weyrwoman as opposed to being lazy and compared to Kylara -- thats you taking the extreme and putting words in my mouth to counter my arguement.

If this was an institution run solely on the power of people there wouldn't be a problem of rank here. Rank comes in b/c in a time of crisis, the dragons in that weyr will not instinctively follow and obey a green -- Mirrim or no Mirrim -- unless her lover, the Weyrleader and his bronze dragon, are backing her up. Thats a fact, and there's no way getting around that. Mirrim would have no political power over the other dragons and their riders if she wasn't sharing T'gellan's bed.

Thats why I think there is a delicate balance of personalities at work here.

My main issue is that when Mirrim pushes and eventually goes too far (and I see that as being likely taking into consideration her natural disposition and the fact that Path is probably often proddy being a lustful green -- and the fact that she's pissed off every major character in the series at one point or the other) that delicate balance will be destroyed and the Weyr will be extremely disrupted through Arwith. I understand the delicate balance of personalities and duties, but I think its a foolish one and shouldn't be accepted because Mirrim is capable human being. During the last few years thread may fall, if T'gellan consistantly flies Arwith, the Weyr and its dragons could go to pot -- all b/c Mirrim has a talent for upsetting even the most unflappable people.

Rank among dragons is there for a reason -- its the natural order. Just because you love that a character spices up the plot by being rude and getting things done, doesn't mean that she should get special consideration. The leadership arrangement at Monaco Weyr definitely has the potential for disaster. I say, Arwith should be flown by someone else and Mirrim and T'gellan can do their own thing. Of course, when the Pass is over, this whole rank issue will be, for the most part, irrelevant.


Mariah:
I agree with Mpatane on this, mainly because I don't see any evidence to prove that T'gellan's such an exceptional WL that it would be worth risking disruptions in the Weyr...

Arwyn:
There was no mention of Talina in AtWoP at all, nor was there one in Dolphins of Pern. I remember the speculation before SoP came out... no one knew who the Weyrwoman was and some people speculated that there wasn't one (although since T'lion Impressed there there had to be one)

Maybe it's just because Tlaina's dragon is my namesake, but I tend to have a different view of the Talina entirely (who by what little description there is of her resembles me to a high degree).

I believe that we can't use Lessa as the basic example of what a Weyrwoman does. Lessa was a "superweyrwoman", she did all her jobs and intruded on F'lar's job description too. When you look at Moreta, she pretty much kept to the domestic side of things and rarely even comunicated with Sh'gall and the Wings (except in the affairs of who was seeing whom and who shared Weyrs). She maintained the records, supervised the Headwoman in regards to diet and supply matters. The job of Weyrwoman is entirely "domestic administration".

What do we see Mirrim doing? She seems to be heavily involved in Wing management, the young riders such as T'lion and his brother seem somewhat awed by her and her power over riders. She seems to be more like a Wingsecond to T'gellan than taking over the duties of the Weyrwoman, just as F'nor was usually seen trailing F'lar into meetings and such, even when Lessa was a part of the meeting.

So, as long as Mirrim doesn't poke her nose into the domestic affairs of the Weyr, why should Talina care? She doesn't seem to be interested in T'gellan sexually (ala Moreta/Sh'gall) and probably has her own interests elsewhere (a cute brownrider maybe?).

It was mentioned at one point in SoP that only a few of the Weyrwomen actually took part in Weyr Council meetings. Indeed, until Lessa forcibly pushed her way into world politics they didn't seem to be allowed, it was only Weyrleaders and their Seconds. It wasn't until "modern" Weyrwomen became more common that they began to be a prt of important meetings, and even then Lessa herself was often left behind.


The Harper:
I still maintain that Eastern/Monaco bay Weyr was set up purely to defend landing and Aivas whilst thread still fell there and as such T'Gellan was sent along as Weylreader. A Weyr needs a Weyrleader during fall. there was no need to actually have a breeding Weyr. T'gellan is the Weyrleader, he is one of F'lar's appointees and therefore has F'lar's approval and even more to the point probably D'rams approval too.
I actually find myself more than a little amazed that so many of you from over the pond actually care about rank or hierarchy or traditions even. Mirrim is good at what she does and I also get the idea that a few too many people are jealous of her as a character either that or you see a little too much of yourselves in her. Mirrim is to all intents and purposes the Weyrwoman.


Anneli:
Nevertheless, the fact remains that there was a breeding gold at Eastern/Monaco Weyr, or else Gadareth would never have been hatched and impressed by T'lion Which means that any argument that there wasn't a Weyrwoman at Eastern cannot hold water, no matter how illogical that may seem in the cirumstances.... When push comes to shove, to have a hatching in a Weyr, a gold dragon is a sine qua non

Mpatane:
:rolleyes: *rolls eyes* *snorts in good natured humour* :rolleyes:

Harper, if you're going to participate in this discussion could you please keep your comments to facts or valid assumptions based on the text rather than accusing certain members of begin jealous of a fictional character? It really isn't necessary.

Sorry to beat this point into everyone's head -- again. But Harper, there are things you have to take as unchangable Pern fact:

1. There is a draconic hierarchy that does and must exist. Sure people will listen and obey Mirrim, but the dragons won't obey Path.
2. The general Weyr harmony depends muchly upon Arwith and thus on Talina. If Mirrim eventually pushes Talina too far, then everyone in the Weyr will suffer.

That is why this is a dangerous leadership arrangement. Regardless of Mirrim's abilities she shouldn't be given special consideration and political power because the Weyrleader is her lover.

Bottom line = The dragons in the Weyr may ultimately suffer for it.

Folks, all it'll take is one major disagreement between Talina and Mirrim to cause major disruptions within that Weyr.


The HArper:
Here's a truth I never even thought of anyone but Mirrim as Weyrwoman in Eastern until I read this constantly recurring thread. I took it that any hatchings were from junior queens and as I keep saying the weyr is an artificial construct with T'gellan as Weyrleader ad nauseum. My reasoning for this is quite simply Dragons may not care where they weyr but Riders might so you send in effect a detachment of wings to do the job. The Draconic Heirarchy is ok but if it was a military outfit Mirrim would be like an RSM and younger gold riders like junior officers, and junior officers don't evemn speak to the RSM with out express permission from the Colonel. So Mirrim would have the authority and that would be transmitted by Path.

Mpatane:
This IS a military outfit, a PERN military outfit -- where ranking is based on dragon color and nothing else.

Without T'gellan, Mirrim has no political power/authority over other dragonriders whatsoever.

*sigh* Path is a GREEN dragon. GREENS have no authority over higher colors.

For the record, Talina is SENIOR Weyrwoman/goldrider, not Junior.

Harper, if you can't even accept those basic premises of Weyr hierarchy *throws up hands* any discussion is futile since you want to rewrite dragon hierarchy and make Mirrim into Weyrwoman.


Eyes of Azarias:
I'm wondering about this idea that dragons won't obey Path. In fact, I'm in a somewhat related conversation over on alt.fan.pern. Sure, dragons aren't going to obey a green over a gold, or probably even over a bronze. But golds and bronzes are only a tiny percentage of dragonkind; fully half are green, and most of the rest are blue and brown. Is it ever strictly said that chromatic dragons will not obey a green? They way its said that they will absolutely obey a gold? If we can judge dragon behaviour by firelizard behaviour, Menolly's two greens, Aunties One and Two, managed to boss around her blue Uncle and her browns. So, while Path may not be able to control minds like a queen or get the instant respect of all dragons like a bronze, I don't think most dragons would just up and ignore her.

Mpatane:
Great question! Well in a related thread, aren't chromatics usually more imperious when it comes to dealing with 'lesser' colors? In Skies, Ramoth calls Tai's dragon a 'mere green' or something to that effect. I think other dragons would and do (in Skies anyway) obey a green if that green had the support of the Weyrleaders. If not, then that green would have no authority. Furthermore, greens simply cannot be given higher rank because they can't last long enough to lead an entire wing during threadfall. Greens are rotated during fall b/c they tire so quickly. Thats probably why its so great to have so many of them on hand. Only browns and bronzes have the stamina...which goes to the very core of the dragon hierarchy.

If you wanted to take that FL analogy to the next step, you could also assume that greens are less intelligent as well.


Lector:
I don't think we've ever seen a situation in which Path tries to give an order to any dragon--heck, we've rarely heard from Path, period--let alone a metallic. In SOP, Path offers a suggestion (is it really necessary for all of us to be levitating Golanth?), which Arwith overrules. (Which would suggest, incidentally, that Arwith really has no problem asserting herself.) It wouldn't be physically possible for Path to take on a Wingleader or Wingsecond position, since greens only last about half a flight. When would she be giving anybody orders?

(I suppose we could speculate that, if T/M/Ta really are working as a team, Arwith or Monarth might well order other dragons to obey Path under particular circumstances. But I'm not sure what exactly those circumstances could be, since Mirrim doesn't appear to have any duties that involve bossing dragons around. Since Monarth is, in effect, Path's mate, he presumably listens to her advice, as Golanth listens to Zaranth.)

Exactly what can be said about what Mirrim does in the weyr? We're pretty much left to guess:

1) Nursing. Manora is training Mirrim in this skill when we first meet her, and TGWHD suggests that she continued to work as a nurse in the weyr even after impressing Path. In DoP, T'lion reminds himself to ask her how to handle the possibility of Menolly going into labor. This suggests that Mirrim may be the equivalent of a Weyr paramedic/midwife--someone capable of handling births, broken bones, burns, or anything else not requiring invasive surgery. If that's the case, then she'd be a very useful person to have around indeed. But that's not a Weyrwoman's duty...
2) She shows up with T'gellan at public functions. This bothers us, but apparently not anybody else. Lessa doesn't even think it's worth getting upset when she shows up at the Weyrleaders' meeting--which is probably the one time we do see her doing something that, technically, "goes over the line."
3) She's awfully good at organization and micromanagement, as even F'lessan has to admit. There are a ton of boring things that Talina is no doubt perfectly happy to have her organize.

This is bugging us far more than it does anybody in the novels, where the attitude would appear to be "hey, whatever works."


Rainbow Witch:
The amazement of Ramoth that she could learn from a "mere green" is an indication that Greens have not alawys been taken seriously.
Greens can issue commands and be obeyed by other colours. See the Feline fight as an example.

Rank and Power are two seperate enties. With luck they appear in the same individual, and are used wisely.

You can have Rank and Power and still be an idiot.

You can have Rank and the presumption of power and be powerless.

You can have no obvious rank and be extremly powerful.

As for Mirrim, she has influence but limited power.

Does the fact the T'gellan loves Mirrim come into play at all?

If T'gellan loves Mirrim, does that make the fact he has sex with Talina a political act?

And I wonder who does Talina love? It must be hard to be "used" in such a way.
I get that idea from the fact that Tai had been used inmating flights.


Mariah:
Interesting points, Rainbow Witch. I suspect that Tai, like Brekke, is one of those unfortunate women (from the Weyr's POV) who can only enjoy sex with someone they love. That would prevent her from fully surrendering to her dragon. That's the point of dragon-linked sex, it's supposed to be so fantastic that the person you're having sex with doesn't matter at all.

Any WW-WL sex is a political act, because it's the way weyrleaders get elected. Fancy that, men sleeping their way to the top!


The Harpoer:
No I don't I've been in too many real situations where so called lower ranks actually do the work and the upper echelons get the glory. Mirrim has grown from being a real pain like all teenagers to being a rounded person. I accept the dragon hierarchy but there has to be times when the higher ranks will listen too and take orders form greens and possibly even blues. Because in fall especially if the threads are falling erractically it would be up to each individual wingrider to call how the fall was going and if a green tells a bronze to duck it might be wise to listen. I think in my heart of hearts it's the thought of not being able to go anywhere rank wise for the greens that secretly makes me happy that Mirrim has found a good niche for herself.

Arwyn:
I don't see that Mirrim has become anything but an annoying adult. Her behavior over Tai's furs was entirely unreasonable. Mirrim is a micro-manager on a power trip. Just being chosen by a green indicates that she doesn't have what it takes to be a *real* leader. If she had any potential she would have been chosen by a gold. Anne said that golds choose women with leadership potential. (If they never realize that potential, like Kylara or Jora, it's not the gold's fault). Mirrim might have been a decent mid-level manager, but she's too abrasive to ever become a leader in her own right.

Greens usually choose riders with no real management talent, a green needs a follower, not a leader, since greenriders can never achieve any rank. Mirrim had the drive and the ambition to be part of Weyr management, and she was fairly nice before she Impressed. I believe that when she Impressed a green, although she loves Path with all her heart, she is embittered to learn that she never had the innate talent to become someone.

Like soldiers, a smart officer always listens to an experienced Sargeant in battle, so a bronze or brown would listen to an experienced green or blue if a tangle of Thread was about to hit his head, although he would never let that blue or green dictate Wing management!


Mpatane:
Arwyn, thats in an interesting theory. The thought never occurred to me that Mirrim may, deep down, resent not having the chops to impress a gold. Its not as though this issue hasn't been addressed. In DQ F'nor experiences regret that Canth isn't a bronze because of his relationship with Brekke (disclaimer: lets not turn this into a Brekke/F'nor discussion [IMG]file://localhost/Users/Hans/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0/clip_image002.png[/IMG]).

I can see Mirrim as possessive over T'gellan. Even though she is Weyrbred, she was raised by Brekke and emulates Lessa (who has one true love) and Manora (who by all accounts didn't seem the type to sleep around -- in fact I'll wager she was in love with F'lon and never got over it). Furthermore, her opinion of F'lessan is so negative due to the fact that he has casual relationships. How can Mirrim stand sharing T'gellan?

If Mirrim did feel this way about not impressing a gold and having to share T'gellan with Talina (however that may be), I can see how T'gellan may overcompensate by giving his Weyrmate special treatment.

But then again thats a big "if". :p Glad you brought this up Arwyn, its something interesting to think about.


Noemi:
Wow. I'm extremely uncomfortable with this unspoken assertion that only gold riders are "someones."

Eyes of Azarias:
I've always thought that ALL dragonriders count as someone. Of all the riders we see in the books, whether they're good or evil, crafty or just plain silly, none of them strike me as being Joe Sixpack.

Mariah:
Well, that's because Joe Sixpacks never make it to books. :rolleyes: Anne writes about the most interesting and extraordinary characters. Goes to show that although nearly half of all dragonriders ride green, she's only written about a few, and most of those because they're women and therefore extraordinary, more rare than queenriders even.

Mpatane:
I don't think she meant it in a negative way. It may be interpreted that since Mirrim values having authority and the power to change things (which all goldriders have since they ride the highest ranking dragons and therefore have the potential to be Senior Weyrwoman), being a greenrider doesn't allow her to be that type of 'someone'.

:rolleyes: come on folks, lets not assume the worst.


Lector:
Except that Mirrim wasn't a "nobody" after impressing Path, either; see, for example, TWD. And one might remember what F'lessan says to Tai in SOP when she describes herself as "only a green rider."

Are people objecting to Mirrim because AM deviated from her own "script"? That's the novelist's fault, not the character's. I'm not sure how inventing hostility to Mirrim and Path on anybody's part--Talina's, Arwith's, the other riders--helps reconcile what AM has written on this particular issue to the rest of her corpus, particularly since, despite our objections to it, we're stuck with what appears to be a perfectly stable and functional Weyr.

On the subject of possessiveness: I think what's really at issue is AM's ongoing attempts to evade the implications of her own descriptions of Weyr sexual freedom. All of her "good" main characters aspire to monogamous relationships--and, indeed, are expected to do so by others (Lessa thinks F'lessan ought to bloody well make up his mind about his three girlfriends, for example). In the cases of Moreta, F'nor and Brekke, and Mirrim and T'gellan, AM makes extra-"marital" (extra-weyrmate?) sex purely instrumental: it's sex as part of the job or sex as a necessary side-effect of riding a dragon. Mirrim and T'gellan are perhaps most upsetting to readers because the instrumentalism is so clear. Sh'gall has marginally more choice than Moreta does (a rider can choose not to compete for the queen, but Moreta's stuck with the flight's winner), but he's represented as thoroughly unlikeable; we'd not be so sympathetic to her relationship with A'lessan if Sh'gall was even marginally tolerable. And AM is totally silent about the likelihood that F'nor will continue to have sex with other riders, since Canth did not get magically neutered. T'gellan and Talina are rather like Sh'gall and Moreta, save that we're meant to like T'gellan, and we're supposed to understand that his relationship with Mirrim is an unalloyed good thing. (I'm not done with this thought, but someone else in the house needs the phone.)


Arwyn:
Exactly, when Isaid that Mirrim was a "nobody", I meant that she was not high ranking in the Weyr political structure. All riders have a high rank on Pern, but according to some sources(Sariel's?), a greenrider is only equivalent in rank to a Junior Journeyman Crafter, but with the special elevation of hero status. (I base this on a chart of rank-knots that I saw somewhere).

Mirrim had no special rank in the AIVAS plan, AIVAS simply needed several small green dragons for part of the plan, where no larger dragons would do. Mirrim just got lucky to be one of those chosen, probably due to her pre-rider association with people who really are important on Pern. Almost any other greenrider would have done just as well on the project.

I believe that Mirrim was being groomed to someday be a Headwoman somewhere. In Dragonsinger she was already in charge of preparations for the post-Hatching Feast. Menolly thought Mirrim felt that she was in over her head, that she had to put on airs to be taken seriously.

Impressing a green dragon meant that Mirrim could never gain the rank on her own to have a say in Weyr management, someting she seemed to want. So, having no chance at rank, she slept to the top, gaining not rank but authority by weyrmating with a Wingleader who later became a Weyrleader. I do believe that their relationship was based on real feelings, not a "golddigger" mentality on Mirrim's part, but she could never have gained the authority that she wields in the Weyr without T'gellan.

I remember in SoP Mirrim upbraids Tai for the fur incident, and Tai thinks bout the fact that Mirrim has no authority to say anything, since T'gellan wasn't around... Mirrim was just another greenrider.

So, I believe that Mirrim is like the company secretary that's sleeping with the CEO. No one dares go against her because she has the CEO's ear, but her authority is just an illusion. The day he breaks off the relationship, she goes right back to being a secretary.


Kris Raven's Claw:
I believe that Mirrim is the wave of the future. She is a leader and go-getter, who rides green. For the weyrs, post-Thread will be less militaristic. The natural roles of the dragons were enhanced because they needed to fight. But in the future they will lose the need to be so militaristic and may be more egalitarian. So Mirrim is the 'new woman' on Pern. After all if women (only a very few) can lead the dragonriders on Queens, and the rest are relative drudges on greens, the dragons will lose access to an awful lot of very talented people. It is realistic that when women begin impressing greens again they would develop real relationships with other dragonriders including Weyrleaders. Mirrim seems like a natural transition to me not a glory-monger.

Mpatane:
Yep, thats kinda how I see Mirrim's place in the Weyr. Granted she's probably a very competant and reliable secretary that gets things done, but that doesn't change how she got her authority.

Funny, though...perhaps no one on Pern cares about Mirrim sleeping her way to power and authority because the male bronze riders and dragons do it all the time.


Mariah:
Good point, mpatane! However, it is a bit odd to think that T'gellan got where he was because he slept with Talina (or rather Menorth flew Arwith) and now Mirrim's where she is because she slept with him...

The Harper:
Why cant people accept that Eastern /Monacco bay weyr is as such an artifical construct and T'gellan was put in as weyrleader at F'lar's insitgation and he naturally took Mirrim with him as his Weyrmate.
Monarth may well fly Arwith but you have also forgotten how notorirously short Draconic memory is and therefor they convienently forget it pretty soon after it's over.


Taipa:
Would a dragon forget something like "hey, I just flew the senior gold"? Mnementh seems to remember that he's Ramoth's mate, which makes F'lar WL. I don't think F'lar wakes up everyday and says "Now Mnementh, be a good boy and remember that you flew Ramoth the Senior Queen, making me WL, and making you the highest ranking bronze." He knows his place.

The Harper:


Well we don't know i suppose on a gut base instinct level they don't forget and yetn they are programmed to forget injuries caused by thread


-- end of page 2
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Old Feb 16 2014, 05:12 PM   #17
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Well! Thank you Hans! I know it was probably just the work of a minute to transfer all the information but it looks very impressive.
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Old Feb 16 2014, 05:13 PM   #18
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continued - page 3

Mpatane:
Originally posted by The Harper
Why cant people accept that Eastern /Monacco bay weyr is as such an artifical construct...
There is nothing to indicate this in the text. This is your own personal assumption.

...and T'gellan was put in as weyrleader at F'lar's insitgation and he naturally took Mirrim with him as his Weyrmate.
No one is arguing this. What I contest about your general opinion is that you think Mirrim should be Weyrwoman and that is something she will never be. She's a great micro-manager, but she's a horrible leader -- which is why she impressed a green instead of a gold.

Monarth may well fly Arwith but you have also forgotten how notorirously short Draconic memory is and therefor they convienently forget it pretty soon after it's over.
There's no way Monarth would forget he flew Arwith. Monarth is Senior Bronze because of Arwith. Arwith is more important than Path. Thus, Talina is more important than Mirrim.

Everything is based on what how you think "Mirrim's" weyr should be run. While at the same time totally dismissing Anne's rules regarding draconic hierarchy/leadership roles. Personally, I'll take Anne's word over yours.

Furthermore, comparing a mating flight with a senior gold to thread is hardly a convincing analogy.


Arwyn:
Like when they started Southern Weyr as an artificial construct, they sent down a bronze in charge whom they were confident would win the mating flight of the gold dragon. Like with any other Weyr, had Monarth NOT caught Arwith when she rose to mate, T'gellan would have lost his initially appointed position as Weyrleader. Whatever bronze catches the Sr Gold is Weyrleader, and Monaco isn't any different. It may have started out as an artificial construct, but it's now a traditional Weyr in rank structure.

Yes, Mirrim and Path came along with T'gellan and Monarth as Weyrmates, so what? Personal preferences of the riders will never stop a bronze from trying to fly a gold, while Monarth seems to have affection for Path as T'gellan loves Mirrim, that relationship isn't going to stop the basic instincts of the bronze.

Arwith is Monarth's mate and he knows it. Short memories or not, dragons know who they are and what the relationships are between dragons. Arwith is his mate and he is Senior Bronze, Path is his Weyrmate and he knows it. Dragons don't seem to have any problem with the concept, they are not monogamous creatures.

The metallic dragons seem to have better memories than the chromatics, they may have short memories for events, but not for who they are and what is important.

Greenriders will never really become leaders because greens simply don't choose people who have the ability to lead. Green dragons are followers by instinct and choose like people. Mirrim has no talent for leadership, she would be a horrible leader because of her lack of tact but she's good at being a lacky for others and getting the job done in the most efficent manner.

Another reason why greenriders will never become leaders is because of the randiness of their greens, you can't have your leader being proddy all the time.

Pern is not and never will be about equality. People, on fictional Pern or in the real world simply aren't equal, much as we like to believe in our current PC world. Some people simply don't have what it takes to succede and others seem to succede with little or no effort. That's why there are so few people on top and so many at the bottom. Pern dragons simply sort them at puberty, they can see what a person is like, deep down, and choose according to their needs. The golds and bronzes take the leaders, browns take the marginal leaders (mid-management types) while the blues and greens take the followers.

I would be disappointed to see Pern to become an "all men and women are created equal" kind of place. Pern was created as a feudalistic, mysogynistic place, a purely fictional culture and I never want to see it change. I think Anne has already gone too far in changing Pern to be a more PC world.


Eyes of Azarias:
They're not proddy "all the time." The only time we actually see proddy greens is right before they mate, and the proddiness never sets in more than a couple of days beforehand. They only mate three or four times a year-- if getting horny once every three or four months disqualifies one from leadership positions, then we need to start electing eunuchs to office.

Arwyn:
I don't think that "proddy" means "horny". It was a proddy greenrider that attacked and nearly killed F'nor. His behavior was considered acceptable because of his dragon's condition and they were reprimanded for being out of the Weyr while proddy, not because of the attack.

I see "proddy" as PMS from h-e-double hockey sticks. A person who is like that for 4 days every three months or so could be bad for any group he or she leads, because if bad things happen during that time, things could get very bad.

But this is less important than all the other points I brought up, like the fact that greens intentionally choose riders without strong leadership qualities.


Taipa:
And didn't someone tell Mirrim that if Path didn't fly soon she (Mirrim) wouldn't have any friends left? It didn't sound like she was throwing herself any any guy who walked by, it just sounded like she was snipping at everyone and being a general bit- er, a crabby person.

Question: what happens if a female greenrider already has PMS when her dragon becomes proddy? Or would this never happen, as the reproductive cycle of the rider would inhibit the mating cycle of the dragon (you know, 'cause most of us do not feel like sex at that time, even if someone promises the best sex of your life) so the dragon's hormones would "wait" until their rider would be ready?

Mariah:
Interesting point...

The thing that really bugs me about Anne's Pern is that metallics only impress hetero (or very possibly possibly bi, but open minded) candidates. Since when has being gay had anything to do with leadership ability? The best boss I ever had was gay!


Arwyn:
I don't think that this is supposed to mean that gays have no leadership qualities. We came up with the numbers a few times and figured that if 10% of the population is to some degree gay or bi (current estimates), there would be nearly half a million gays/bis on Pern. So with 1/2 a million gays on Pern, it wouldn't be too hard to find a few thousand who weren't leadership material to become blue or greenriders.

Outside the Weyr, gays don't seem to have any rights, so my guess is that most of them are closeted living as unhappy husbands in politically arranged marriages. Those with leadership abilities would probably hide thier homosexuality and become bachelor Masters, or rise though the ranks of the Hold to be Stewards and the like.

Hey, women don't get much choice either, they marry according to their father's or brother's wishes, even if they detest the man chosen for them. On Anne's Pern, lesbians either don't exist [IMG]file://localhost/Users/Hans/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0/clip_image002.png[/IMG]or are also in unhappy marriages. Besides being pretty mysogynistic, Pern also seems to be rather homophobic. Not suprising for a medeival-like place where personal sacrifice, not personal liberty, is key to the survival of the Human race.

Only the Weyrs have any freedom of personal expression and there it's only because of instead of sacrificing their personal freedoms for the good of the community they often sacfifice their lives for all Pern.


Taipa:
Wasn't the first book written in like the 60s? When being gay was "a choice", and only "other people" were gay, not people you knew? Or at the very least, that's how it was in books, they were either never mentioned at all, or they would be the villain or something. Along comes an author who wants to be open-minded, and gives homosexuals a place in her books. Not the "best" place, but then again, the majority of people reading/buying/critiquing the books were going to the heterosexual (in theory), and they wouldn't accept homosexuals in a place of high-ranking leadership. Sure, she could change that in the newer books, but people are already complaining that she's made Pern too PC in the last few books. How do you know who to please?

Lector:
This is really starting to sound like a Watson's War Wound problem. The author has seamlessly inserted an apparently discrepant situation into her story, and expects the reader to handle it. BASS doesn't work here, because AM has both argued that greens can't have leadership positions and constructed a situation in which a greenrider clearly has some unofficial influence, to nobody's particular displeasure.

Tai's response to getting drubbed by Mirrim, in which she thinks that Mirrim really has no power here, does indicate the limits of what other riders think is acceptable. Mirrim is respected as someone who gives advice--and she gives good advice, as even Tai has to admit. But there isn't any sign that she gives macromanagerial orders on a regular basis. Aside from showing up at a Weyrleader's meeting (we don't, incidentally, have any proof that she would normally do that either) and appearing in public with T'gellan, there isn't any sign that she has taken over Tai's place. There just ain't. Why project non-existent angst into the story?


The Harper:
I have never called it Mirrims weyr. I'm doing what I always do standing up for the underdog. I must admit though if there was a Mirrim in my Hall or Weyr she would be doing every unpleasant duty going as I wont tolerate attitude. However as I keep saying Mirrim is T'gellans weyrmate and Talina is merely the woman who rides Arwith and can you actually see Mirrim allowqing T'gellan to have sex with Talina. If you were in Mirrims position would you allow it I asked my wife and she just flexed her fingernails and reached for her pinking shears.

Mpatane:
Lector: ...there isn't any sign that she has taken over Tai's place. There just ain't. Why project non-existent angst into the story?

I'm just trying to respond to the earlier opinion that Talina is lazy and Mirrim does all the work -- and that Mirrim is entitled to behaving the way she does. I truely wish that Anne would concentrate her sequel to DoP on Monaco Bay so we readers may gauge the levels of tension or lack thereof in that Weyr.

Harper: I keep saying Mirrim is T'gellans weyrmate and Talina is merely the woman who rides Arwith and can you actually see Mirrim allowqing T'gellan to have sex with Talina.

Obviously you value personal relationships over professional ones. That just isn't how it is in the Weyr or on Pern. Talina isn't a mere anything. She is the Weyrwoman, she is Mirrim's Weyrwoman. However, Mirrim is T'gellan's lover and a mere greenrider in draconic hierarchy. Its not a matter of allowing T'gellan to sleep with Talina, he has to...that is, unless we all want to rehash the whole 'stand-ins' argument. *groan* :rolleyes:


Noemi:
In Anne's mind, men are *rendered* gay by the sort of sexual activity imposed on greenriders by mating. She believes this is a "proven scientific fact," based on some dubious interpretation of hormones and based on what I, in my ignorance, must interpret as her misunderstanding of the personal experience of one of her friends.

Eriflor:
I'm not sure the Pernese are homophobic. Apart from Fax calling dragonmen "dragonwomen", I don't remember any homophobic remarks, and he was impugning their courage as much as anything else (dragonriders mostly refuse to fight duels because of the danger to/from their dragons). Oh, and Kylara called T'bor a boy-lover.

I think some object to the degree of sexual freedom in the weyrs (e.g. Debera's father). Most seem to accept it as a necessary part of weyr life, if they think about it at all.

Mariah:


Good points. Not that Weyrlife is necessarily seen as a freedom by those not born to it, re: Brekke and Tai's problems.


The Harper:
I still think it comes down to people don't like Mirrim and even if she was riding a gold dragon people wouldn't accept her. I know all about hierarchys and i understand them and I repeat why would Mirrim allow T'gellan to have sex with Talina. Would you in that position?

I sometimes think that the objection by some weyr members to the sexual freedoms of the weyr are a take on when the books were first written when as i remember only to well sexual fredoms were virtually thrust down everyones throat. But their were always the squares who wouldn't get in the groove the Brekkes and Tai's of this world

Mariah:
If she rode gold, she would be within her rights to represent the Weyr at meetings. Mirrim "allows" T'gellan to have sex with Talina because she has no choice. Mating flights are mating flights. However, no doubt she would have a few choice words to say if she ever found Talina and T'gellan in bed outside of mating flights...

Mpatane:
I still think it comes down to people don't like Mirrim and even if she was riding a gold dragon people wouldn't accept her... I repeat why would Mirrim allow T'gellan to have sex with Talina. Would you in that position?
I like Mirrim's character fine. Its very well written and has depth. But that has nothing to do with it. If i was a greenrider on Pern yes I would allow my bronze weyrmate to sleep with other women...esp. if she was the Senior Weyrwoman. I have no say in the matter. I'm not going to apply my Earth moralities (as you seem to want to) to Pern. Thats just how its done there.

However, no doubt she would have a few choice words to say if she ever found Talina and T'gellan in bed outside of mating flights...
You know what? I agree with this statement completely -- just by taking into account Mirrim's disposition.

Here's a slight twist:

Not that Weyrlife is necessarily seen as a freedom by those not born to it, re: Brekke and Tai's problems.
Yet Mirrim is an example of a prominent weyrbred character who most likely wouldn't allow her weyrmate to exercise that sexual freedom. Interesting isn't it? Exposed to probably all kinds of sex in almost any situation since she was a child (desensitized to it in a way)-- yet it is completely believable to see Mirrim as the possessive type.


Taipa:
Not to mention the fact that if your weyrmate sleeps with the Senior Weyrwoman, it would up your status a bit, at least to the point of "I may only be a green rider, but I'm the WL's weyrmate". So someone could even encourage those mating flight trysts, even if they would severely discourage "extracurricular" ones.

Mariah:


Sounds reasonable. However, I think that Mirrim would've never been just an average greenrider, simply because she's the first female to impress green since the 2nd Pass, or thereabouts.


Taipa:
Good point. She'd be the only greenrider who could do it (at least for a while)!

The Harper:
Hm good point I forgot about that. I wonder if Tai was originally stood to the egg as a possible queen candidate.


Arwyn:
I think Tai (and Danegga) were Searched as green Candidates, and I bet they aren't the only ones by the 31st Turn of the 9th Pass. Maybe not alot of them, but now that they know girls can ride greens the Search Dragons surely seek among the girls too.

In 2000 turns no green chose a Gold Candidate, why start now? When Searching for Gold Candidates, dragons seek girls who would make good leaders, while green riders need to be athletic and mentally suited for the hard, dangerous life of a fighting dragonrider. A green hatchling wouldn't be interested in a leader type girl, she'd be seeking someone who is like her.


Eriflor:
Don't know about Danegga, but I believe Tai was just sitting with Wansor in the stands telling him what was happening, and Zaranth came looking for her.

I don't know whether girls are being presented as potential greenriders at all, or whether they're always a rare choice from the stands by an very picky dragon. Possibly the holders are still leery about letting their daughters go to the Weyrs other than to Impress a gold egg.

Lector:
Mirrim at least can't be any more possessive than F'lessan is at the end of SOP ("nobody's laying a hand on my girl, grumble grumble grumble").

The point I failed to arrive at several posts ago [IMG]file://localhost/Users/Hans/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0/clip_image002.png[/IMG]was that it's very easy to overstate "sexual freedom in the weyrs." In fact, the novels are in some ways far more conservative than they at first appear. The "radical" aspect of Weyr morality is not that it encourages promiscuity, but rather that it encourages riders to distinguish between emotional monogamy and necessary (induced by dragon hormones) and/or instrumental (hey, I want to be Weyrleader!) serial sexual encounters.

Readers are invited to view queen riders who indulge in sex just for the sake of sex as at the very least contemptible, as in Mardra's case, or as borderline evil, as in Kylara's case (and Kylara's apparent penchant for non-vanilla sex clearly isn't a positive characteristic). Along the same lines, Lessa clearly isn't overwhelmed by the gold candidate in ATWoP who is bedding bronze riders all over the place; sure, it's better than being a Brekke or Tai type, but Lessa's mental tone is rather contemptuous, and the narrator's attitude to the girl after she fails to impress is also dismissive. Tomcatting bronze riders certainly aren't considered "evil" in the novels--but they are considered juvenile, no matter what Pass they're in. M'hall, B'lerion, and F'lessan may play the field, but all of them have to be "redeemed" by forming an emotionally monogamous relationship with another rider; one might note that T'ron's own lack of fidelity to Mardra isn't exactly presented as a brief for his moral character.

What about the Moreta/Sh'gall/Alessan triangle--which, like I said earlier, is the closest equivalent to the Tai/T'gellan/Mirrim triangle? Moreta's relationship to Sh'gall is purely instrumental: she doesn't like the man, feels no emotional commitment to him, and isn't sharing his bed. Her relationship with Alessan has all sorts of political difficulties, but in the novel's logic it doesn't "count" as an infidelity. (Nor, in all probability, would Moreta think that sex during a mating flight "counted" as a transgression against Alessan. It would have been interesting to see Alessan's response to Orlith's next flight.) Moreover, AM makes it clear that Moreta is in love; she isn't just sleeping around, which is presumably supposed to make a difference. For that matter, it's a marginally "responsible" (!) relationship, in the sense that it won't affect the Weyrleadership. The unhappy queenrider in MHoP appears to be in a slightly different situation, since sleeping with a different bronzerider really would constitute a challenge to the Weyrleader; this may also be the problem with both Mardra's and Kylara's encounters with other bronze riders.

To work around to the current situation: I don't think that anyone would regard Mirrim as unreasonable if she objected to T'gellan sleeping with Tai outside of mating flights, precisely because that would constitute infidelity as the novels appear to define it. She would be considered "out of line" if she insisted that T'gellan refrain from instrumental sexual encounters (and, presumably, T'gellan would come in for similar condemnation if he got upset if another dragon flew Path). Similarly, what makes Brekke a problem is not that she objects to having lots of sex, but that she can't separate emotional commitment from potentially necessary serial relationships. (There's no sign that junior queenriders are expected to form lasting relationships with winning bronzeriders. Would anyone actually have objected if she had a relationship with F'nor as long as she was "lying back and thinking of Pern" during flights?) If anything, F'lessan's possessiveness at the end of SOP is probably far more unacceptable, since it makes sex that doesn't "count" into some kind of violation of his relationship. "Real" and "mature" relationships in the novels all aim for emotional exclusivity and, for that matter, sexual exclusivity outside strictly demarcated areas having to do with the dragons.


The Harper:
Several contradictions arise here. Mirrim isn't the weyrwoman(even though just to upset the normal run of things I'd support her cos I know it annoys some of you who are so addicted to rank and hierarchy ok ok you can have it lol but remember its us Sergeants who make things work not the chinless wonders who are officers.)

The other is that other do seem to be some genuine Bronze/Gold attachments F'lar/Lessa, D'ram/Fanna K'van/Adrea which proves that Drgon riders do retain their humanity.

Another is again look inside the covers of your books and see when the books were written DF was written in the 1960's and as I remember bits of that decade but more the 70's very well. The ideas about mating flights change with the decade in which the books were written. In West Coast America of the 60's/70's it was considered to be very square not to sleep around no matter what your marital status. Translate that to Pern and there's your excuse for apparent promiscuity. Now move on thirty years and you have Aids and other STD's and the very stupid proliclivity of teenagers to get pregnant and the ball game changes . Pern has to mirror Earth in its own way but at the same time still have the amazng sexual liberation that i certainly enjoyed in the late 60's and 70's. Like ST TOS Pern has to lead but it needs to change and the only way it can change is retrospectively .

Another point is simply this. Picture a man going home to his wife / SO

"Darling I just got that executive position i was after."
Reply of So/Wife "Oh Sweetie thats wondewrful lets go to bed I feel frisky."
Embaraseed cough, "I can't part of the deal is I have to sleep with the Boss in fact that's how Igot the job, I spent the afternoon in a motel and I'll need to spend a weekend with her every now and then to keep the job."
Wife/SO smiles cheesily and makes stabbing motions in the air behind mans head .


Noemi:
Well, I think perhaps that Lector was (very ELOQUENTLY, I might add... I wish I wrote as fluidly as you, Lector!) that Anne writes *romance novels,* dressed up with dragons and derring-do. It is the convention of the romance novel that a couple be emotionally committed and share the "hardships and the glories." One of the major themes of romance novels is, yes, even a form of *feminism,* in that the woman is usually the intellectual equal of them man and rivals him in willpower, despite the heaving bosoms and panting virginity. T'gellan and Mirrim are secondary characters, but they are a romance novelish couple -- once romantically bonded together, they are a *unit.*

Lector:
Noemi has very succinctly summed up my argument, yes [IMG]file://localhost/Users/Hans/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0/clip_image002.png[/IMG]

Harper, I don't think that your 2nd contradiction really is one: that many bronze/gold pairings are "real" is precisely my point. The "real" relationships are what the novels valorize. And I agree that AM was no doubt responding to social changes along the way, which is why we finally saw real live homosexual blue and green riders--but there's also a "time-lag" along the way there, too, since AM didn't jettison her earlier education and beliefs.

Mirrim/T'g/T cause trouble because we've got an instance where a) we're supposed to admire the "real" pairing of the first two riders, but b) there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the odd rider out (unlike Sh'gall), so c) we all think that Talina ought to be objecting strongly to the situation. But what if Talina agrees with a) as well, and simply doesn't see it as her right to interfere in an established emotional pairing? In other words, never mind Mirrim's opinion--Talina might actually think that insisting on more from T'gellan might be (gasp) wrong.

It would help if we knew more about Talina, since it's all too easy to treat her as the passive member of this particular triangle when, in fact, she holds nearly all of the cards.


Mpatane:
Originally posted by The Harper
Several contradictions arise here. Mirrim isn't the weyrwoman...
Thats not a contradiction. She will never be a Weyrwoman she is a greenrider. That is an Anne rule.

The other is that other do seem to be some genuine Bronze/Gold attachments F'lar/Lessa, D'ram/Fanna K'van/Adrea which proves that Drgon riders do retain their humanity.
Are you saying that on Pern riders don't normally retain their humanity, thus making this a contradiction? Furthermore, how do we know that some of these pairings didn't grow into love. Sure, they probably weren't as passionate as F'lar and Lessa's courtship, but as with many 'arranged marriages', it is possible for duty to extend to the heart. I think Pern would be less realistic if ALL senior/bronze pairings didn't have a few permanent couples.

The ideas about mating flights change with the decade in which the books were written. In West Coast America of the 60's/70's it was considered to be very square not to sleep around...Now move on thirty years and you have Aids...STD's and the...proliclivity of teenagers to get pregnant...Pern has to mirror Earth in its own way but at the same time still have the amazng sexual liberation...
Actually I don't see a promotion of sexual liberation in the first books. Lets consider:
Dragonflight
Lessa the virgin gets the dragon and the guy. Kylara the slut runs away in fear thus losing the dragon and the guy. Male bronze riders who search girls who are pretty (probably for the purpose of sleeping with them) don't even attract Lessa, the Weyrwoman. But they and most brown riders want her. Lessa the Weyrwoman eventually falls in love with F'lar who has abandoned his tomcatting ways. Eventually, with the benevolent help of Lessa, Kylara impresses, but the obvious heroes, F'lar and F'nor won't touch her. Interpretation: virgin/mysterious = good, slut/easy = bad.

Dragonquest
New virgin Brekke gets the other major hero F'nor. They become super-sweet supercouple in the book (translation = good). Kylara, still the slut, aligns herself with Meron, probably also slut (translation = bad). Mardra/T'ron, were once good and helpful but sleep with anything young are now painted as evil. Brekke loses dragon b/c of Kylara who triggers her dragon's mating instinct while she was being a slut. Result, readers sympathize/love Brekke and blame Kylara as does the rest of Pern. Translation = promiscuity is bad.

The White Dragon (i.e.Jaxom the teen years)
Jaxom only ends up sleeping with 2 women in his entire life. Now as a Lord Holder and at one point the most eligible bachlor of his time, thats amazing! A Lord Holder, the hero, who decides not to practice his perogative to sleep with as many women as possible. Translation = even a male hero doesn't want to be a promiscuous slut.

Shall I continue? The only statement I see here is a world that is innundated with sexual liberation which celebrates heroes that aren't promiscuous. Sure, tragic things can happen with the 'virgins' of the series, but in the end, we the readers and all the other characters, love them for what they've gone thru b/c they've survived.

Now what I'd like to see is a character with Kylara's sexual prowess who gets to be a hero -- maybe a short story on a junior goldrider. Talk about having your cake and eating it too! [IMG]file://localhost/Users/Hans/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0/clip_image002.png[/IMG]

Another point is simply this. Picture a man going home to his
wife / SO...

eh, I've already addressed this when it was brought up the first time.


The Harper:
The point i'm still trying to make about that is that MIrrim being Mirrim not Tai or any other female green rider is that she doesn't exactly conform so she probably makes life fairly intolerant just after a mating flight if T'gellan actualy has sex with Talina and the jury is still out on that one.

Carter:
Hmmm... well, up till the end of thread anyway. The militaristic Weyr setup really won't work once thread is gone - or at least won't be as strong. It will begin to wear down once dragonriders disperse to their own holdings. In actuality, T'gellan and Mirrim could run off to Southern, create their own holding, and then Mirrim would be Weyrwoman, though not in the traditional sense, since the "traditional sense" would only marginally exist at that point.

But, up till the end of thread, you are definitely correct.


Mpatane:
Harper, unless you read and consider ALL my posts I'm done discussing this with you. Obviously you are influenced by personal feelings and for the most part do not base your statements on Anne's Rules regarding Pern.

Evidently my 'obession with hierarchy and rank', which is how things are done on Pern, conflicts with whatever personal experiences you've had (militaristic or not). Personally, I'd find it more constructive if you'd keep your arguements based on the text and not colored by whatever slights you may have experienced in your life. But thats just my opinion. :rolleyes:

Carter, I completely agree with you! :p


Mariah:
Good points folks!

The slut=bad, virgin=good holds, except for Brekke. She lost her dragon, not only because of Kylara's, but partly because she was in denial about what being a dragonrider meant for her sexuality. In fact, I think her losing Virenth was a plot device so that she could stay together with F'nor and stay true to him. She's not weyrbred, so undoubtedly she can accept a man having several liaisons, although she couldn't accept the necessity of having sex with anyone but him for herself.


Anareth's Rider:
*sighs, grits teeth* Harper, if you are referring to sex during the mating flight, then the jury has been back for a long time. Monarth flies Arwyth, T'gellan has sex with Talina, at least once or twice a year when Arwyth rises. Period. That is just the way it works, no matter how you personally think it should be. There are no stand-ins, and even if there were, nowhere is it indicated they're possible for gold flights. If T'gellan wants to stay Weyrleader, then Monarth must keep flying Arwyth. The Southern Weyrs are just like the Northern ones in that respect. While I could see Mirrim being upset if T'gellan moved in with Talina permanently, if she demanded he not sleep with Talina even during mating flights then she is in effect saying she does not want him to be Weyrleader. She knows, as everyone else on Pern does, that the Weyrleader is determined by which male dragon flies Arwyth, NOT by which female is flown by Monarth. I don't see her doing that. (Especially because she would then lose any vicarious rank she's held, and be notable only as the first female to Impress green in sever centuries--and even being a woman on green is ceasing to be a novelty as of SoP.)

Carter makes a very good point. After Thread ends, presumably forever, T'gellan and Mirrim could pack off and set up housekeeping and raise little Tirrim and Megellan or whatever they name their kids and T'gellan would never have to sleep with another woman again. Mirrim would not technically be a "Weyrwoman," as it would not be a Weyr per se, but it wouldn't MATTER then. Queens would still be the most important dragons in biological terms, as without them the species would cease to exist, but there would be little or no need for organized military units with a Weyrwoman and Weyrleader in overall command of all colors. If anything greens would have more freedom than golds in the new Pern, as golds would still have to stay near a good hatching grounds and a choice of mates, while greens can do pretty much whatever they prefer. Mirrim could run a Weyrhold however she liked, as Path's inability to give orders to other dragons would no longer be the massive drawback it is in the current Weyr system. Also, Mirrim's utter lack of interpersonal skills and near-pathological need to micromanage would go over better with a lot fewer people to organize.


Mariah:
Hear, hear Anareth! First of all I find the mere idea of stand-ins repugnant to say the least, it sullies the draconic bond IMO.

Undoubtedly, greens in Weyrholds would have much more freedom than greens in a Weyr, I just wonder how they feel about not having a lot of other dragons to talk to...


Mpatane:
Little Tirrim and Megellan???? LOL!!!! :p I'd applaud but I'm too busy falling off my chair in laughter!!!!!!

The Harper:
One other little point that has been made to me is about not judging Pern by Earth standards.

However I think that, that's being a little bit hypocritical when a while back there was a lot of fetch the gelding irons for Jaxom after his "Date rape with Coranna"
thoe other point that isn't coevered is how Talina feel aboutt T'gellan maybe she wants Mirrim around so that she only has to toleratre him during a mating flight ? In othe owrds is her dragon causing a form of date rape.

I really wish Anne would pop intro the chatroom more often so I could ask her about these points and here it from the horses mouth so to speak. I actually wonder why she bothered haveing women impress green dragons again and why Mirrm at all. As it has been said Mirrim is a real pain in the butt, yet I'll still defend her mellowing with maturity and motherhood.

Why is it that draconic characteristics are cinsidered beyond reproach? Dragons are beings no person or being is perfect so why cant't there be dragons who are not good at their predestined roles.
Leadership is something you learn and isn't automatic and respect has to be earned it can't be commanded.


Anareth's Rider:
Re: Jaxom: If you remember that debate, not a few people argued that not only could you not judge Jaxom/Corana by Earth standards, but that Corana didn't exactly seem upset about it. (Some people were solely bothered by Ruth's rather un-draconic nosiness.) But this thread has nothing to do with Jaxom, so let's not make it about him.

Anne actually foreshadows Mirrim Impressing green in Dragonquest, where she has Brekke comment how Mirrim would be best suited to a fighting dragon. F'nor laughs it off, but next book, lo and behold...as for why women in general on greens again, why not? Green riders were originally almost all women. Anne may be trying to point out that while not all women on Pern are suited to being gold riders, not all of them are suited to sitting at home in the lower caverns darning socks and satisfying lusty riders' needs. Mirrim is not suited to leadership. She does not have the personality to make people follow her or respect her. Say all you like about "sergeants," but just because someone is an effective SOLDIER (or noncom, for that matter) they are not necessarily an effective leader. Mirrim can give orders, but she lacks any sort of charisma or diplomacy. She doesn't mean she's a bad dragonrider, it means that she would make a lousy queen rider.

Dragons aren't held to human standards because (surprise!) they're not human. Undoubtedly, there are dragons who aren't the best at their "predestined" roles. Pridith wasn't the greatest senior queen ever to come down the pike. But these are ANIMALS we are talking about, not people. Intelligent animals, but animals nonetheless. A dragon is ruled by instinct. That's partially why they need riders. They obey the queens because that is how their species works. They don't worry about whether or not their rider gets caught up in the mating flight--instinct is, they rise to mate, and the queen is caught by the best dragon, or who she (and sometimes the Weyr) thinks is best. Candidates usually know this going in, so they aren't being forced into it. Mirrim certainly knew going in how the system works.


Arwyn:
While I definately agree that dragons are not human, I disagree about their status. They aren't just animals. Dragons are EQUAL partners with their riders. In the books several times they've given advice to their riders, chided them over health issues (slow down, you're stressing yourself, etc), and question thier choices(why did you make that stupid decision). They can make their own decisions completely independant of their riders. Often riders ask their dragons' permission for the unusual, you don't ask a horse or a mule (a very intellegent animal) if it's ok to carry cotton instead of finished fabrics today.

Yet, because of the bond, they cannot live without their riders. Usually it's domestic animals that are this way, cats, dogs and the like, who depend of owners for food, health and basic common sense decisions. So while they have a different imperative, dragons clearly aren't "animals" governed by thier instinct.

Hey, without drugs or surgery humans can't control whether they go into estrus or not, we just don't show it, or know it. I never once met a tomcat who ever decided that the queen in heat wasn't his type! But dragons can make these decisions and do. They don't chase every green or gold that flys to mate.

And it's not the riders who Search, it's the dragons! Dragons are different in that a few (Search Dragons seem to be very special, and uncommon) have the talent to see into a young person's subconcious and see what kind of a person he or she is, and if they will likely be the right kind of personality to match a dragon. And of course if they have enough telepathic ability to make that all important Draconic Bond. When riders Search, they look for outward appearances and get people like Jora and Kylara. Remember, most of the girls from Lessa's search were Searched for the rider's beds, not the Hatchling!

Dragons may not think like humans, but I believe that at least the metallics are at least of average human intellegence, while the chromatics are somewhat less intellegent, but within the lower average range.


Catalina:
Arwyn, I think Anareth's point was that, regardless of how intelligent -- even sentient (or should I say sapient?) -- dragons may be, they're still ultimately ruled by their instincts. They have three very basic ones: kill (food and Thread), mate, and obey the hierarchy. These can't be overruled, or "domesticated", if you will. Humans suppress instincts except in dire situations; dragons never do. I don't really classify them as animals either, but I'd say they fall in their own category. We can't lump Pernese life -- indigenous or engineered -- into Terran categories. Dragons are their own form of life.

end of page 3
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Old Feb 16 2014, 05:15 PM   #19
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I have to copy/paste every piece of text said by someone by hand, Lily
On to the last page!

contunued - Page 4


Catalina:
Catalina, I like your reasoning on this. Dragons are themselves, nothing like them exists on Earth, more's the pity. Another reason why I dislike the post-SoP apparent trend of having dragons couple up like Zaranth and Golanth. Frankly, I don't think dragons in general would be happy living outside the Weyr. Ruth's an exception, but maybe his higher intelligence and being a mutant anyway, as well as having grown up outside the Weyr play a part in this. I sure hope most dragons stay in Weyrs even after thread ends.

Anareth's Rider:
Thanks, Catalina, you got my point exactly. (And I think it's sapient.) Dragons might be clever, but they cannot override their instincts. A queen can't decide not to mate because, well, gee, her rider might end up having to sleep with someone she hates. If the rider can't deal with the fact that her dragon is going to fly and going to mate with whomever she likes, too bad. There's nothing the dragon can do about it. Humans, on the other hand, can restrain their sexual behavior (unless they have a mental disorder.) The only thing that stopped the dragons in DE/RSR from charging into battle against Thread, firestone or no, was the influence of their riders. They can't function to the maturity level of adult humans without their riders there to impose it on them. That's probably one reason Kitti programmed them to die if they couldn't Impress or if their rider died--having a dragon without anyone to restrain its impulses would be a hazard to it and to those around it.

T'mer:
just a thought people are animals, just most people don't seem to think that we are. just cause we rule da planet, dosen't make us non-animals, we're just another species (sp?) on the planet. Sure we're smarter but that dosen't change anything,
we..are..still..animals.


And here the thread suddenly ends.

Enjoy reading
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Old Feb 16 2014, 05:39 PM   #20
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Well, that is very good of you Hans. That's a very worth while thread to have archived.
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Old Feb 16 2014, 07:17 PM   #21
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Good reading!

Damn. It's a shame the fandom died.
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Old Feb 17 2014, 03:24 PM   #22
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Good reading indeed, and just before my entry onto the Forum too I think.


Grud it's strange to see all those old Member Names, many of which have passed into the either.
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Old Feb 17 2014, 04:46 PM   #23
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I suppose I ought to throw my hat into the ring ...

I think I'd kill off Sassinak; assassinated by the Seti in retaliation for foiling their takeover plot. As to how? Well that would have to be as the chance fell, wouldn't it?
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Old Feb 17 2014, 08:17 PM   #24
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Aramina. I might let Thella get her. She turned into a right worry-wort
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Old Feb 17 2014, 10:20 PM   #25
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An interesting what-if: what if that greenrider at the beginning of DQ had hit just a little harder, and F'nor did lose the arm?
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Old Feb 18 2014, 02:03 AM   #26
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Does it have to be a heroine? Can it be a hero?

And if so, can it be Jaxom? It's not even that I hate him, but it creates such an interesting vacuum of power between east and west. It would cause Fort and Tillek and Nabol in the West to get edgy, and in the East you know it'd catch Lessa's attention. Plus, depending how old he is when he kicks the bucket, you could get Sharra (if she was married to him and survived) and Toric involved too. And of course Lytol.

As for the killer...it could be anyone. If you wanted to be very tragic, it could be Sharra on her brother's behalf. (Or her own! Maybe she wants a major Hold and unlike other women she actually gets it...) If you wanted to feed Lessa's bloodthirsty side, maybe once there were enough queen dragons everywhere, and once everyone seemed ok with Jaxom being a Holder AND a dragonrider, Lessa did it and took her hold back. (Maybe F'lar shook her one too many times!) Maybe Meron to the north sent an agent to do it in the hopes that he could rule two Holds. Maybe Jaxom has an angry older half-sister who also has a tiny bit of Ruathan blood and she wants the Hold. Maybe Lytol liked being Lord Warder too much, and he did it. Maybe Robinton decided to fiddle with the politics in the area, and he did it in order to move a more suitable candidate into the position. Or maybe once F'lessan's dragon is injured permanently, F'lessan said, "Well, shards, if Jaxom can be Holder and Dragonrider both, why don't I just go claim my mother's Hold?"

Jaxom's wonderful to kill off. Particularly before he has children. Although with Ruth, it'd be tricky to do. I like Ruth, too. So, to get around Ruth's perceptoins...poison via innocent would be the best, a la what happened to Robinton, preferably with the poisoner quickly on then off-site via dragon or runner while Jaxom was off somewhere else official for the day, so Ruth couldn't pick up the thoughts of the poisoner, and thus couldn't stop the poisoning.

Or, you could be really cruel and kill *RUTH* and have Lytol watch as *Jaxom* deals with losing a dragon. Then pick off Jaxom at some point when he's out of his head.

If this game really has to have a *heroine* killed off...there's not too many to choose from, is there? There's Lessa. And Menolly. And Brekke. And Aramina. And Tai. I personally wouldn't care of the latter three were killed, which would winnow it down to Lessa or Menolly. I like Menolly as a character, but her dying isn't going to really do much aside from pissing off fans who also like her. It would make her friends sad, and maybe provoke Robinton a bit if he's still alive, but it's not going to shatter things. There'd be a lot more problems if Lessa died though. But also ends up looking like she died BECAUSE she was a strong woman. Do not want.

Yeah, I dunno. I think Jaxom is the best to kill off. It would set off such a storm of problems, and you could keep so many people guessing as to *who* did it, until the very end, because so many would have legitimate reasons for killing him. Like the girl he raped. Maybe she had a child, and felt the child should have Ruatha before any of Jaxom's issue with Sharra.

Edit because I got my west and east confused. Benden is in the East, not West!

Edit 2: Kath - I like your idea. But how does that discredit the Harper Hall from your point of view? Solely because Robinton would try to ride to Lessa's rescue?

Edit 3: You know, I thought this was in the DRoP forum. It's not! Must think a bit further.
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Old Feb 18 2014, 02:16 AM   #27
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If we expanded it beyond DRoP as was intended, here's a few more...

- The Rowan is knocked off. Afra has to figure out why. Turns out his family really really wants him to come home again, which is part of the why. As for the who...

...IT WAS AFRA. Who'd been manipulated mentally by Goswina, who wanted her little brother home and away from alien influences, but also Capella. Because she had fallen in love with the handsome Afra from afar, had been intending to make him HER second in command, and couldn't bear it any longer that he'd left his native planet (the planet she'd named herself after!) Goswina, of course, never realized her brother would end up killing the Rowan, she'd just begged Capella to help bring him back home and Capella found a way.

Killashandra is knocked off. Lars Dahl has to figure out why. Who was it? It was Trag, who felt Killashandra was STILL distracting Lanzecki from his duties as Guild Master.

ehehehe. This is fun.
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Old Feb 18 2014, 05:27 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
Edit 2: Kath - I like your idea. But how does that discredit the Harper Hall from your point of view? Solely because Robinton would try to ride to Lessa's rescue?
Yeah, with added plot-support that I didn't bother figuring out. The Benden-Harper Hall axis is pretty strong, and any would-be usurper of a Hold would have to take them both out at the same time.
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