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Old Dec 3 2004, 09:07 AM   #1
Larry Lea O-G
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Question College -> Harper Hall ??? When

I am currently listening to DragonsEye on tape and at the beginning of the second pass Pern still has a college with Clisser as its head teacher [Dean what ever] Because of his plan the teachers of the college began using music to teach Pern necessary information - duty song and the charter.

At the end there is no Harper Hall. So when and how did the College become a "craft" with Craftmaster, Journeymen, and Apprentice? The DLG is no help.
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Old Dec 3 2004, 09:15 AM   #2
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

Unknown Larry, but guess is somewhere during the 2nd Pass. Remember DE/RSR describes the years (Turns) just prior to the start of the Second Pass. Well, I think Clisser's plans will have found their place during that upcoming Pass. Demands on all the things still in existence during the Interval will have been heavier and heavier and well into the Second Pass the last of the College related digital and high tech stuff will have broke down, disappeared or disintegrated. Thus the need for the new Curriculum Clisser and his friends started to com up with will have gained in importance during those first Pass decades. By the time of the Second Interval I think a proto version of Harper Hall as we later come to know it must have been in place.By the time of the end of the Second Interval and start of the Third Pass (Dragon's Kin) the whole hierarchy within the Harper Hall seems to have been well settled.
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Old Dec 3 2004, 09:55 AM   #3
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

Some how I knew Hans would have the answer
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Old Dec 3 2004, 05:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

Doesn't he always? Handy Hans!



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Old Dec 3 2004, 05:13 PM   #5
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

Isn't that one reason that Hans is a Master Archavist??

Thanks for the explanation Hans
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Old Dec 4 2004, 05:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

Yes, well done Hans.

May I also reinforce this, by saying that the process finished before the third pass; in Dragon's Kin we already see both harpers, and the basic hierarchy in place, and, judging by the book, it assumed as if this was natural enough.

Thus, taking into account Hans' words, it is obvious that the second pass was integral in the development of Pernese society. In addition to the change in syllabus to a Pern-orientated focus, there was also the establishment of the basic apprentice-journeyman-master structure in the craft halls. This period would have seen redefinitions of the basic crafts, so that the teachers' jobs included both music and teaching, instead of pure teaching, thereby assuming, over time the general functions of the harper hall as it stands in the later books.

Obviously, though, this model doesn't fully address the political aspect of the harper hall. That is, although the preservation of Pernese culture was an important holdover from the college, the use of the harpers in arbitration and negotiation does not seem apparent from the second and third pass material thus far seen; we must wait for Todd McCaffrey's book to see more, and to understand, essentially, what changes had occurred in both the previous pass and the interval itself.
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Old Dec 4 2004, 08:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghyle
Yes, well done Hans.


Obviously, though, this model doesn't fully address the political aspect of the harper hall. That is, although the preservation of Pernese culture was an important holdover from the college, the use of the harpers in arbitration and negotiation does not seem apparent from the second and third pass material thus far seen; we must wait for Todd McCaffrey's book to see more, and to understand, essentially, what changes had occurred in both the previous pass and the interval itself.

To go one more step... considering some of the Teachers don't want to lose as much as they plan to cut...

The way Harper Hall stands in later books, especially after Robinton becomes MasterHarper (And possibly during Moreta's time) I see strong similarities between Pern's Harpers and the ancient Bards. Someone's way of keeping just a little more of Earth History on Pern?
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Old Dec 31 2004, 04:06 PM   #8
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

I have also been wondering why "Harper" ? Teacher would still work. Why Harper Hall? Why not guitar or flut? Yes I know because Anne Says So...
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Old Jan 1 2005, 11:29 AM   #9
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

It was proably that the integral changes happenned before the name, which was probably justs a formality by the time it was made, as we see how education changes into being taught through songs and music. So the College became a Craft when things had changed enough internally on in a Pern-wide socialogical spectrum, and when the College had a job above and beyond that of just teaching, but also information gathering, musicians etc.
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Old Jan 1 2005, 06:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Lea O-G
I have also been wondering why "Harper" ? Teacher would still work. Why Harper Hall? Why not guitar or flut? Yes I know because Anne Says So...
Here's a hypothesis....

By the time that the change to the crafthall structure was complete, the emblem of the harp had been adopted, to distinuish it from other halls, holds and weyrs. The name harper then came into being, as a result of the badge, since the badge represents a harper. It's the same proces of calling Nazis brown shirts....
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Old Jan 4 2005, 07:17 AM   #11
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

or 1t coulda been a joke!
Someone called a teacher a harper-perhaps because they kept harpng on (bad pun 1 know!)
and 1t stuck!
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Old Jan 4 2005, 05:13 PM   #12
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

Edith, could you please leave of the semi l33t? Typing 1 doesn't go any faster than typing i, does it? If you want to use it, type all l33t or refrain, please?
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Old Jan 4 2005, 05:20 PM   #13
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Lea O-G
I have also been wondering why "Harper" ? Teacher would still work. Why Harper Hall? Why not guitar or flut? Yes I know because Anne Says So...
Hmm...

Well, Larry, I guess the first idea must be that they wanted to transfer the knowledge by way of song and music, the new curriculum as we discover in Dragonseye/Red Star Rising (if you want continuity in that, you might want to skip certain passages of Todd's Dragonsblood )

So musician is obvious. Now why Harper, that's less easy. Well, a lap harp is an easy insturment to carry and maybe the Dean of College (the first Masterharper?) was sombody with an Irish ancestry, ike the Hanrahans? Would be neat if he or she was one of the irish traveling flok (tinkers)

One can also assume that a harper is also somebody who spins tales, while a guitarist of flautist sounds like a pure musician, don't you agree?
Harping as a word even has its place in your beautiful language
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Old Jan 4 2005, 06:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans
Edith, could you please leave of the semi l33t? Typing 1 doesn't go any faster than typing i, does it? If you want to use it, type all l33t or refrain, please?
sorry but its because mum's laptop has a dodgy, i, k and 8 key which sticks nearly everytime i'm online! luckily I'm back at uni next week and have my own laptop! I can copy and paste but I'd just needed alot of ks so had that on the clipboard instead!
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Old Jan 5 2005, 03:52 AM   #15
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

Ah, OK Then you are excused. Sorry to hear about mum's laptop who'se attracted digital Alzheimer apparently (the laptop of course, not mum!)
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Old Jan 5 2005, 11:05 AM   #16
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Default Re: College -> Harper Hall ??? When

it only happens on mum's log in dad has no probs. am using copy and paste at the mo for i and k.
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