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Old Aug 9 2006, 05:23 PM   #1
Cheryl
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Someone emailed me a bit ago with some general Pern questions. I know I could answer most of these if I just sat down to do it, but I haven't managed to get around to it yet, and figured as a group we MoMers might manage to get them all answered much sooner!'

So, here are the questions of a bright, friendly 15 yr old Pern fan:

Now my questions. What ever happened to Torene and M’hall? Did they have any kids?

How many kids did Sean and Sorka have total? How many more of their kids became dragonriders?

Did Lessa descend from one of Sorka and Sean’s children or from one of Red’s lot?

What ever happened to Jaxom and Sharra? Did Sharra ever get a daughter? How many kids did Jaxom and Sharra have? Which one of his sons would take over if Jaxom died?

What happened to F'lessan and Tai? Did they ever have any kids? Did Golanth ever recover?

What were the names of all Menolly’s children? Did any of them become dragoriders?

Why couldn’t Lessa have any more kids?

Did Brekke have any kids with F’nor?


Hans -- this fan seems interested in bloodlines! I'll be sure to give her a link to your site when I reply, and maybe you want to write up a paragraph to send back to her as well?
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Old Aug 9 2006, 06:02 PM   #2
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:;points at last question:; She hasn't read Renegades yet then. Though that only mentions Nemekke.
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Old Aug 9 2006, 06:14 PM   #3
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Well most of them we can't answer because they aren't mentioned in the books!
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Old Aug 9 2006, 08:03 PM   #4
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The only one I can answer is that Lessa couldn't have more children because of so many jumps between. I think this is speculated in Skies of Pern.
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Old Aug 9 2006, 09:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
The only one I can answer is that Lessa couldn't have more children because of so many jumps between. I think this is speculated in Skies of Pern.
I think the much more mundane answer as to why Lessa couldn't have more kids is just that some women can't.
Riding dragons between would just make things worse.
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Old Aug 9 2006, 10:04 PM   #6
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Lessa had a hard birth with Felessan, and "almost died". I wouldn't be surprised if he was a big baby and should have been a C-section. Sometimes after a traumatic birth like that, women can't have any other kids because their innards are ruined.
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Old Aug 10 2006, 03:48 AM   #7
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Do we know she definitely can't conceive/carry to term?

The birth may have been so bad that the healers simply ordered her to abort any conception, warning her that a second pregnancy would almost certainly kill her. She knows her duty to Ramoth and Pern, and I doubt she'd risk it.
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Old Aug 10 2006, 03:36 PM   #8
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Mark that up to the 'no definite answer' group then...
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Old Aug 10 2006, 10:42 PM   #9
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Hans' website:

Quote:
Children (at the time of the founding of Ruatha Hold, during the First Pass, children 1-5 were fostered with their Hanrahan grandparents):
1 M'hall of Benden (Michael/Mihall), born at Landing 8, rider of bronze Brianath (impressed in 22), co-founder and (first) Weyrleader of Benden Weyr, died during the First Interval.
Mate Torene Ostrovsky, born probably Telgar Hold 6, rider of gold Alaranth (impressed in 25), co-founder and (first) Weyrwoman of Benden Weyr, daughter of Volodya Ostrovsky, mining engineer, and Sonja, mining engineer.
2 N.N. [Kenneth] (son), probably born Fort Weyr c. 10, died during the First Interval.
3 N.N. [Sheala] (daughter), probably born Fort Weyr c. 12, died during the First Interval.
4 N.N. [Solina] (daughter), probably born Fort Weyr c. 14, died during the First Interval.
5 Sorana, probably born Fort Weyr c. 16, died during the First Interval.
Sorana was fostered at Ruatha Hold until she was Searched at the age of about twenty Turns in 36. She Impressed in that Turn, became a queenrider, and is one of the dragonriders from the Ruathan Bloodline remembered by the Telgar Weyrleader K'vin, who was of Ruathan Blood himself [RSR/DE].
Note: the right placement within the Ruathan Bloodline of the dragonriders Mairian, Sorana and M'dani, who are mentioned in Red Star Rising/Dragonseye, cannot be discerned from the books. However, permission to place them according my views was obtained from Anne McCaffrey herself in May 2001.
6 Ezremil (son), probably born Fort Weyr (early) 19, died during the First Interval.
Ezremil is named after captain Ezra Keroon and governor Emily Boll [CoP-FoRH/123, 130].
Quote:
Children (as far as correct order is concerned only 1,2 and 9 are sure):
1 Sorka Hanrahan, born Clonmel, Waterford County, Ireland (Earth) 27 BL, follows A-11.
2 Brian Hanrahan, born Clonmel, Waterford County, Ireland (Earth) c. 25, follows A-12.
3 Simon Hanrahan, born at Landing c. 2 [CoP-FoRH/121], died during the First Interval.
4 Pat Hanrahan, born at Landing c. 4 [CoP-FoRH/117], died during the First Interval.
5 Maureen Hanrahan, born at Landing c. 6, died during the First Interval..
About Maureen we know she was much younger than Brian [CoP-FoRH/122].
6 N.N. [Kevin] (son), born at Landing 8, died during the First Interval.
This child, which I supposed could have been named Kevin is identical with Sorka's "newest baby brother", born not so long before Sorka's first child Michael (M'hall) [DD/295].
7 Mairian Hanrahan, born probably at Fort c. 11, follows A-17.
Mairian became a queenrider and is one of the dragonriders from the Ruathan Bloodline remembered by the Telgar Weyrleader K'vin, who was of Ruathan Blood himself [RSR/DE].
Note: the right placement within the Ruathan Bloodline of the dragonriders Mairian, Sorana and M'dani, who are mentioned in Red Star Rising/Dragonseye, cannot be discerned from the books. However, permission to place them according my views was obtained from Anne McCaffrey herself in May 2001.
8 N.N. [Ellanor] (daughter), born probably at Fort c. 13, died Fort c. 16 (fever).
9 Ryan Hanrahan / Ryan of Ruatha, born at Fort 19 [CoP-FoRH/3:84], died during the First Interval..
Ryan was born two and a half years after Red and Mairi lost their youngest child to the fever [CoP-FoRH] and was the last child Red permitted his wife to carry..
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Old Aug 10 2006, 11:33 PM   #10
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(1) and (5) we are never told, are we?
And if it's not in Hans' bloodlines - it didnt happen!
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Old Aug 11 2006, 01:44 AM   #11
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2500 years after Landing the Pernese, especially the aristocracy of Lords is so inbred, that at a good guess, Lessa would be descended from both Red Hanrahan and M'hall's (Torene!) line. If I'd have to choose, though, I'd hazard that Lessa would have more of Torene's bloodline in her, since both women are HAD. I'd say that any HAD would be somehow related, especially given how illegitimate children are actively encouraged for Lords. This would make Brekke and Lessa related. I had already earlier figured that Lessa would be related to Lord Alessan of the 6th Pass, thanks to Moreta II, the daughter of Alessan and Nerilka (fans have speculated that Moreta II is the reason why in the Ballad of Moreta's Ride she's called the Benden Weyrwoman - she is assumed to HAD unlike her namesake, ending up as the Benden Weyrwoman early in the 6th Interval. - As far as I know, Anne is aware of and accepts this speculation.).
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Old Aug 16 2006, 07:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
What ever happened to Jaxom and Sharra? Did Sharra ever get a daughter? How many kids did Jaxom and Sharra have? Which one of his sons would take over if Jaxom died?
Jarrol and Shawan are mentioned in AtWoP, Jarrol is the elder:
Quote:
From All the Weyrs of Pern
The Gather attracted hordes from every Hold, Hall, and Weyr. This was one of those few days when there was no Fall to be met, and it would be one of the last of the Northern Gathers before winter weather made roads impassable. Jaxom and Sharra, accompanied by Jarrol and Shawan, now a sturdy toddler, walked the long line of booths until Shawan had to be carried and Jarrol revived by one of the first bubbly pies out of the oven.
Quote:
What were the names of all Menolly’s children? Did any of them become dragoriders?
Robse, Olos, and Lemsia:
Quote:
From All the Weyrs of Pern
He (Sebell) bent to kiss her cheek. “I’ve time to tell Robse and Olos a story before I go.”

Menolly snaked an arm around his neck before he could straighten. “You are such a loving man,” she said, and then kissed him again deeply before releasing her hold.

When he paused at the threshold to look back at her fondly, she was already bent to her composition. He smiled at the concentrated pose of her back, one shoulder angled up. She did love him, but he accepted the fact that he would have always two rivals—music and the Master. He had the same loves. With that thought, he went down the corridor to sing to his sons and to admire his daughter, Lemsia, who was too young for more than adoration.
No mention of their futures.
Quote:
Did Brekke have any kids with F’nor?
Nemekke is the only one named, though People of Pern mentions that she and F'nor have five sons and two daughters.
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Old Aug 19 2006, 12:06 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalyn View Post
Lessa had a hard birth with Felessan, and "almost died". I wouldn't be surprised if he was a big baby and should have been a C-section. Sometimes after a traumatic birth like that, women can't have any other kids because their innards are ruined.
Exactly along my line of thoughts...
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Old Aug 20 2006, 12:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff View Post
The only one I can answer is that Lessa couldn't have more children because of so many jumps between. I think this is speculated in Skies of Pern.
No it was mentioned in Dragonquest. She almost died giving birth to F'lessan and was told she should not have any my children.
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Old Aug 27 2006, 03:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
I wouldn't be surprised if he was a big baby and should have been a C-section.
I'm pretty sure (as sure as I can be without getting the actual book out) that in SoP, F'lar mentions to Lessa about when those brochures from the Abominators were getting around that F'lessan was a C-section, and that they knew how to peform those on animals too.
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Old Aug 28 2006, 01:20 PM   #16
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Something interesting:

SoP online:

F'lessan was too important-not just as their only living issue, but to Pern. How he had given heart at that Weyrleaders meeting!

I wonder if they ever had another kid, but the birth wasn't successful.
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Old Aug 28 2006, 04:11 PM   #17
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It does look like it could be read that way, doesn't it?
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Old Aug 28 2006, 04:42 PM   #18
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In The Skies of Pern, however, can also be read:

Quote:
Lessa was momentarily surprised; few people referred to F'lessan as "your son." He was the one child she had been able to bear F'lar and she had once—briefly and keenly—regretted her inability to have more. But that was long ago.
Of course this could be read that "to bear" might mean "to bear until born healthy" but I can honestly say that (even though I have never actually searched diligently for evidence) F'lessan is the only child born to Lessa and F'lar.

It is far more interesting to think of how many children F'lar fathered... and I don't mean to start a discussion here questioning whether T'kil, Kylara's oldest son, was by F'lar!

Anyway, The People of Pern (entry for F'lessan) tells us (and I DO take all that is in that book as canon):

Quote:
F'lessan was born merry, despite the difficulties of his birth, that nearly took his mother's life. He is the only child of Lessa and F'lar, though not F'lar's only child.
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Old Aug 28 2006, 08:38 PM   #19
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Oooh....*gets idea for fanfic*
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Old Aug 29 2006, 04:10 AM   #20
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Old Aug 29 2006, 11:05 AM   #21
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While doing questions for the upcoming McCaffrey Quest, I was scanning thru DF DQ and WD. In one of them, I think it was WD but possibly DQ, F'lar is thinking it's sad that Lessa never 'quickened' again and that she had trouble, somewhat, with the fact that she couldn't conceive.
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Old Aug 29 2006, 12:14 PM   #22
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Now that you mention it I think I have read that too, Becky!

Yep, Dragonquest it is (I'm at work but always have a more or less complete AMC and Pern collection with me on my PDA).

It actually says
Quote:
He'd been relieved that she had never quickened again. The thought of losing Lessa was not even to be thought. "Riding between so much makes it impossible for a Weyrwoman to carry to term"
The first is thought by F'lar, the last is been said by him to Lessa; to which Lessa observes that Kylara doesn't seem to be effected (trows another light on the chose name T'kil = To kill?). Anyway, "not quickened" would indeed mean that she never got pregnant again, doesn't it?
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Old Aug 29 2006, 01:09 PM   #23
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Okay, so that leaves things pretty open. Given the tech level, it's quite possible that Lessa can conceive, and may in fact be doing so... but it's not implanting, or miscarrying very early which wouldn't give any noticeable difference in her normal cycle length [i.e. a "chemical pregnancy", where the embryo fails before it gets to the heartbeat stage - and if it occurs very soon after implantation, a delayed period won't be obvious unless you've been charting, and KNOW that you were definitely late , or if you get a positive test, but then have a normal period after that].

I think we can rule out later miscarriage though, given F'lar's comments.

It's interesting to think about how early/late into a pregnancy between can have an effect. In Mirrim's case, she's lost a lot of pregnancies, and it seems to occur at a point before she can be totally sure she was pregnant. But, for a dolphin to be able to detect it... it'd have to be picking up a fetal heartbeat, rather than anything else, surely? That'd be far more detectable than a lump less than a centimetre long. The heart starts beating a bit over three weeks after conception, or roughly one week after the first missed period was due - and I doubt a dolphin could detect it quite that early, really. But, if Mirrim hadn't started feeling any morning sickness yet, it's likely that it was about that stage. So, it seems that between is probably also affecting the early cell-division and the formation of key organs, as well as potentially disrupting implantation.

Here's a fanfic idea - maybe the children of green/gold-riders have a higher incidence of neural tube defects, or other specific abnormalities?
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Old Aug 29 2006, 01:29 PM   #24
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It's using sonar apparantly, so it'll be picking up the change in material...
sort of like this ( I can't draw and put it on photobucket cos it takes about an hour with my current connection)
>>>>> = ultra sound wave in
<<<<< = ultra sound wave out
##### = object

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>#########
<<<<<<<<<<<<#########
>>>>>>>>>>>>#########
<<<<<<<<<<<<#########
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

well, sort of like that anyway- the same as ultra sound scanners or sonar in submarines!
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Old Aug 29 2006, 01:52 PM   #25
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I'm familiar with sonar.

But given a static morphology, a dolphin isn't going to know whether that extremely tiny blob is a 6-week fetus plus fetal sac, or just a natural variation in the woman's internal structure, unless they have a before-and-after comparison.

The heartbeat provides an obvious time-varying structure which can be cleanly distinguished from the rest of her innards.
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Old Aug 29 2006, 04:01 PM   #26
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I also thought the dolphins detecting the fetus didn't have anything to do with heartbeats. Weren't they also able to detect cancerous lumps, growths or something? The way it reads it seems they are able to detect very tiny things...

Could the dolphin's sonar be enhanced? We're talking SF here and because of the mentasynth they had already undergone major erm.. "tampering", engineering?
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Old Aug 29 2006, 04:15 PM   #27
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Enhanced?

Possibly.

But my point stands, I think - a pea-sized or smaller thing which is obviously flickering is a LOT more obvious than a pea-sized thing on its own. A cancerous mass would also be easily detectable due to (probably) a much larger size, and (probably again, because I am not a medical Dr!) a different composition/sonar profile to the surrounding tissue.
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Old Aug 29 2006, 04:19 PM   #28
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DoP definately states that F'lessan was C section.
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Old Aug 29 2006, 04:21 PM   #29
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I'm no physician either, Kath, but I wonder how "big" an object must be to be discerned by an experienced ultrasound tech...
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Old Aug 29 2006, 04:34 PM   #30
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Depends on the resolution, really. I certainly have no idea what a dolphin's would be!
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Old Aug 29 2006, 10:14 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath View Post
I'm familiar with sonar.

But given a static morphology, a dolphin isn't going to know whether that extremely tiny blob is a 6-week fetus plus fetal sac, or just a natural variation in the woman's internal structure, unless they have a before-and-after comparison.

The heartbeat provides an obvious time-varying structure which can be cleanly distinguished from the rest of her innards.
I was agreeing with you until I thought of something. A dolphin would be used to looking at their own fetus', and both species being mammals of similar sizes, there's not much difference at that early stage.

It's an interesting question and basically unanswerable since we don't know how enhanced the dolphins are.
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Old Aug 30 2006, 10:10 AM   #32
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Depends on the resolution, really. I certainly have no idea what a dolphin's would be!
I'll take a look.
Theoretically the resolution is 1/2 lamda = 1/2 the wavelength.
But in practice there'll be errors. Pretty small, I guess. the wavelength vaires because of the medium but it's greater than 20kHz in air.

quote From OPhyics for Scientist and Engineers (5th edition) Tipler P.A. andMosca G pg 486 "The frequency used by commercially available fish finders ranges from about 25 to 200kHz, and porpoises produce echolocation clicks in the same frequency range."

so by using v=f*lamda
and taking v to be 343 m/s at 20 degrees C in dry air
we get wavelengths of 1.4 to 0.17 cm
and therefore a resolution of 0.085 to 0.7 cm in dry air. the speed's greater in water and tissue.
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Old Aug 30 2006, 10:27 AM   #33
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*feels stupid for not working it out already myself*

Erm... I've run out of envelope backs? Will that excuse do?

For biological features, and that range of frequencies, you won't do better than about a millimeter. A fetus should be 1-2mm by the 5-week stage, though it's not really identifiable as such until you can make out the 5mm-ish fetal pole within the yolk sac at 6-7 weeks, with the heartbeat becoming a visible fluttering at around the same time. Even with the same resolution, a dolphin would still need to wait for it to have developed to this stage to be absolutely sure of things - otherwise, it could just as easily be a blighted ovum as a viable pregnancy.
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Old Aug 30 2006, 04:26 PM   #34
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I'm much Impressed -- buth then, with this tech stuff I'm easily Impressed

VERY interesting!

So, this could be one of the mini-articles on Pernese "technology", Edith?
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Old Aug 31 2006, 05:02 PM   #35
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yeah...
I've really got to do some more on that... I'm still putting the stuff on access at the moment... there's more than I think and I think I managed to miss this one!
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Old Sep 1 2006, 04:16 AM   #36
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Miss something? You can't catch them all in the first go and be assured we'll be bringing subjects to your attention thta we think you might have missed or still need to do
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Old Sep 4 2006, 06:24 PM   #37
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yep,
I've done well over 100 entries on my database now, about a 1/4 from ATWOP, man I was bored of that abreviation! None from dragonsong or dragonsinger though!
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Old Apr 10 2007, 11:12 PM   #38
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I know that this was all brought up before but Iwas reading this and wanted to point out that in Dolphins of Pern Readis got a sea thorn stuck in his foot and the dolphin tild him it was there even tough it was invisible to the naked eye. It wasn't until a dragon rider who was with Readis at the time told the Harper of Paradice hold what the dolphin had said that the healer firgure out what was making Readis so sick. So if the dolphins can notice as something as small as a thorn why couldn't they notice a fetus?
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Old Apr 11 2007, 02:35 PM   #39
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Excellent point, mawofone.
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Old Apr 11 2007, 03:52 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheryl View Post
How many kids did Sean and Sorka have total? How many more of their kids became dragonriders?

Did Lessa descend from one of Sorka and Sean’s children or from one of Red’s lot?

What happened to F'lessan and Tai? Did they ever have any kids? Did Golanth ever recover?

What were the names of all Menolly’s children? Did any of them become dragoriders?

I think we'd all like to know the answer to some of these questions. Unfortunately we'll probably never get a definitive answer to most of these.

The only one that we can say with any degree of certainty is that Lessa was descended from Red's lot, as she was of Ruathan blood. Now there are many things that could cause this to not be true in the 2000 years between 1st and 9th pass, but you would think that then she would not be of Ruathan blood. There's also nothing saying that Lessa couldn't also have blood ties to Sorka and Sean (especially since Ruathans are known for impressing a lot of dragons).

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