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Old Jan 22 2010, 10:21 PM   #41
Shalyn
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Originally Posted by Golden Talisath View Post
Very. Still, it would be a good way for her to get back at him for what happened during Ramoth’s first mating flight which they both say was rather a rape than a love scene.
Please. Do not diminish the act of rape by comparing it to a dragonflight. Ramoth and Mnementh's first flight together =/= F'lar raping Lessa. The word 'rape' gets bandied about way too much in regards to this scene. The sex was rough, but it was consensual. The fact that Lessa was a virgin was not F'lar's fault.

Unfortunately, back in the 60's/70's when Anne first wrote Dragonflight and Dragonquest, "rape" was romanticized. All a woman needed was a manly man to force himself on her, and everything would be finedandyhunkydory. The writers, even though they did not seem to realize it, did not mean 'rape' in its most base sense. They were really describing a seduction.

Rape is dirty, evil, life changing, and I hope to whatever deity you pray to that you never have to experience it.
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Old Jan 22 2010, 10:28 PM   #42
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In any case the sex F'lar's thinking of when he considers that if it weren't for Ramoth and Mnementh it "might as well be rape" isn't the mating flight. In DF it seems that he does keep sleeping with Lessa when she's not really into the idea.
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Old Jan 22 2010, 10:29 PM   #43
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Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

Why would Lessa, who has lived in a Weyr for all of her adult life, and F'lar, who has lived in a Weyr all his life, have a real problem with another dragon flying Ramoth? Orth, or Lioth, or whoever flies Ramoth. Lessa has sex with someone else. Said someone else becomes Weyrleader, even if it is only temporary until F'lar gets back on his feet.

Unless we are talking about Lessa and Ramoth's early years, I doubt that she would
a. Give the winner a black eye
b. Give the winner what-for
c. Treat the winner badly

Granted, she's not going to jump for joy. But such is life in the Weyr. She should consider herself lucky that it hadn't happened before.
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Old Jan 22 2010, 10:31 PM   #44
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In any case the sex F'lar's thinking of when he considers that if it weren't for Ramoth and Mnementh it "might as well be rape" isn't the mating flight. In DF it seems that he does keep sleeping with Lessa when she's not really into the idea.
True. I forgot about that.

And, if he has enough conscience to think that 'it might as well be rape', then why doesn't he stop?

Answer: Because the author has romanticized it.
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Old Jan 23 2010, 04:21 PM   #45
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I was thinking about this on the way to work yesterday... And we may have a situation where a committed dragon/rider couple DOES have some problems when the female rises. Only, it isn't a gold I am thinking of, it's a green. Golly can't launch himnself any more. What happens to Tai? We already know how she views mating flights prior to F'lessan's interest in her.
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Old Jan 23 2010, 04:48 PM   #46
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I realize this is coming from fandom, and on a game that itself takes an extremely liberal interpretation of the books, so it's not exactly canon-- but: at a leadership flight on the game where I play, one of the bronzeriders, and a favorite to win, removed himself from consideration by stabbing himself in the shoulder midflight. ;> The bronze freaks and drops out of the running. Hilarious AND effective!
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Old Jan 23 2010, 07:33 PM   #47
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I realize this is coming from fandom, and on a game that itself takes an extremely liberal interpretation of the books, so it's not exactly canon-- but: at a leadership flight on the game where I play, one of the bronzeriders, and a favorite to win, removed himself from consideration by stabbing himself in the shoulder midflight. ;> The bronze freaks and drops out of the running. Hilarious AND effective!
ROFL!

That's one way to lose a flight!

What was the story line for that? He wanted someone else to win?
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Old Jan 24 2010, 04:06 AM   #48
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He probably didn't want the Jora-type Weyrwoman
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Old Jan 24 2010, 07:48 AM   #49
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Please. Do not diminish the act of rape by comparing it to a dragonflight. Ramoth and Mnementh's first flight together =/= F'lar raping Lessa. The word 'rape' gets bandied about way too much in regards to this scene. The sex was rough, but it was consensual. The fact that Lessa was a virgin was not F'lar's fault.
I know that! I’m just referring to the line that F’lar did say that we could as well as CALL it rape, not that it WAS that! And in most of the fan novels that work around Lessa and F’lar, he’s eating himself up because Lessa’s first experience wasn’t as nice as he expected it to be. And I’m not at all considering those two things the same!
Ok, dropping this, and accepting that I may have made a mistake…

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I realize this is coming from fandom, and on a game that itself takes an extremely liberal interpretation of the books, so it's not exactly canon-- but: at a leadership flight on the game where I play, one of the bronzeriders, and a favorite to win, removed himself from consideration by stabbing himself in the shoulder midflight. ;> The bronze freaks and drops out of the running. Hilarious AND effective!
Maybe he had someone else in mind (meaning he already loved someone else).
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Old Jan 24 2010, 01:05 PM   #50
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I was thinking about this on the way to work yesterday... And we may have a situation where a committed dragon/rider couple DOES have some problems when the female rises. Only, it isn't a gold I am thinking of, it's a green. Golly can't launch himnself any more. What happens to Tai? We already know how she views mating flights prior to F'lessan's interest in her.
In between her first mating flight (which she hated) and the one with F'lessan, Tai usually arranged not to be available --- she didn't let any of the other riders know where her weyr was, so as soon as her green showed signs of being ready to rise, Tai would head for her hidden weyr on the coast. She could continue doing that.

This might not be a feasible solution for all greenriders, especially in the close quarters of the older Weyrs, but those who really didn't want to be caught could probably figure something out.

Eriflor.
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Old Jan 24 2010, 03:20 PM   #51
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In between her first mating flight (which she hated) and the one with F'lessan, Tai usually arranged not to be available --- she didn't let any of the other riders know where her weyr was, so as soon as her green showed signs of being ready to rise, Tai would head for her hidden weyr on the coast. She could continue doing that
I need to go back and read the book again. I honestly don't see where that would work. Tai is going to get caught up in what her dragon is feeling, and the dragon still needs to mate. I know Tai never encouraged between-mating flight intimacies....
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Old Jan 24 2010, 05:48 PM   #52
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I need to go back and read the book again. I honestly don't see where that would work. Tai is going to get caught up in what her dragon is feeling, and the dragon still needs to mate. I know Tai never encouraged between-mating flight intimacies....
While I'm certainly not rereading the book, I agree I don't think that's possibly correct. The dragon's rider can't go hide during a mating flight--it would be abuse to the dragon, for starters. She shut down between flights and wouldn't engage in any sort of relations, and she froze up during, making things unnecessarily hard on herself, but there's no way for her to avoid them entirely.
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Old Jan 24 2010, 08:21 PM   #53
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I certainly don't recall reading that Tai hid during mating flights either.
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Old Jan 24 2010, 09:16 PM   #54
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I don't think Tai hid during mating flights--she may have wanted to--but I highly dougbt she could. Anyway, in her particular case, Tai lucked out and both she and her dragon(Zaranth? Not Amanth, that much I do know!) already have committed partners in F'lessan and Golanth--and they happen to be nice guys.

Just because Golanth can no longer launch himself into the air doesn't mean that he can't enjoy himself.And I bet that he still, you know,--well he hasn't been gelded! F'lessan also seems to do alright in that department. So Tai doesn't really have anything to worry about; there are lots of ways to do this.When she and Zaranth are ready, F'lessan and Golly ought to be able to get the job done, if you get my meaning. Even if Golly isn't able to engage in the physical act of mating, he can feel F'lessan's pleasure. To put it crudely, Golanth can still 'get his rocks off', whether he's in the air or not.

Also, this is a green flight; there's no leadership and no clutch at stake here. This takes a lot of the pressure of all involved--so it might actually better than 'the average mating flight sex' (if there is such a thing) because it will be more about communication and respect, and less about F'lessan forcing himself anywhere because he feels what he feels. It's Zaranth rising to mate, not him.

Also, Zaranth's a smart girl, maybe she'd get all "ready" and come down and do a little stimulating of Golanth--give him some pleasure, too.

Did you know that it's been proven through several studies that sex is physically good for you? No wonder dragonriders live so long!
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Old Jan 25 2010, 12:56 PM   #55
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Actually we have no evidence in the books that dragons can mate on the ground--ESPECIALLY not when the dragon they want to mate with can fly just fine. It's probably physically possible in theory, but unlikely if any other suitable mates are around. Dragons in mating rut don't care about feeling, relationships, or the wants and needs of their human partners. They're animals in a mating drive, and Anne's never actually pretended otherwise (though some of her fans have!) It's the HUMANS who always have the issues. Zaranth never stopped rising because Tai didn't like the human end of things--she can't.

I think the One Twu Luv out that the books would use if the plot's ever addressed again is that now dragons have telekinesis and Golanth will somehow manage to 'believe he can fly' and they'll just isolate themselves at Honshu all the time so there's never any chance of competition. (Because God forbid any of the HEROS have to sacrifice any wants and desires for the sake of their dragons' natural instincts. If it can't be resolved, just kill the dragon off--it's for LOVE, after all.)
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Old Jan 25 2010, 05:20 PM   #56
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I certainly don't recall reading that Tai hid during mating flights either.
She didn't but the human side of the dragons' mating, she disliked, till she had that mating flight with F'lessan and Golanth (Golly)

Zaranth came into heat at Benin Cot Hold, turning bright green, after being in the sun all moring, and both F'lessan and Golly were watching both. They when on to Honshu Wyerhold, in which they were be clever and carefully, and that is what made that union/bond work, for they became wyermates.
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