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Old Jan 16 2010, 03:29 PM   #1
Golden Talisath
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Default Some other questions…

Ok, I thought of this 3 days ago, so I can’t exactly remember everything. Because of that, I will put the first question, and get to others later.
What would happen during a matting flight between riders and dragons that are bonded like Lessa and F’lar and Mnementh and Ramoth if one of the riders are hurt (say that Ramoth goes into mating while F’lar is lying in bed wounded from Thread or a fight). Would Ramoth still fly, and would Mnementh fly after her?
And, what if it’s the other way around: what if Mnementh is hurt and he can fly Ramoth? Would she still fly?
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Old Jan 16 2010, 03:41 PM   #2
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Oh, yeah, just remembered the second question: how big is a dragonet after hatching?
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Old Jan 16 2010, 05:41 PM   #3
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When Ramoth is due to mate, she will fly; it won't matter if F'lar or Mnementh is out of action, it's a biological imperative.

Now if Lessa was badly hurt (or Ramoth herself hurt), that might inhibit Ramoth from going into heat, but otherwise she's going to fly when ready.
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Old Jan 16 2010, 06:54 PM   #4
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If the rider is seriously injured, I can see that putting off her dragon from going into heat; if she did fly, it might be a poor flight if the rider is weakened and can't control the blooding - and it could be dangerous if she couldn't control her dragon through the whole flight, to "bring her back" at the end.
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Old Jan 16 2010, 08:59 PM   #5
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What they said. If the queen's rider is injured, she'll probably not rise to mate. But the male dragons and riders aren't relevant. If the queen is ready, her rider's fit, she'll rise.

Dragonet size after hatching...well, Lessa mentions "carrying" Ramoth at one point.
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Old Jan 17 2010, 04:44 AM   #6
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What they said. If the queen's rider is injured, she'll probably not rise to mate. But the male dragons and riders aren't relevant. If the queen is ready, her rider's fit, she'll rise.

Dragonet size after hatching...well, Lessa mentions "carrying" Ramoth at one point.
Also to big to be carried, after eating, bath then eathing I think

She is as tall as Lessa chest I think, at hatching
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Old Jan 18 2010, 08:26 AM   #7
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Dragonet size after hatching...well, Lessa mentions "carrying" Ramoth at one point.
Good! Because every picture of Ramoth’s hatching I see shows Ramoth twice as big as Lessa!
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Old Jan 18 2010, 08:27 AM   #8
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What they said. If the queen's rider is injured, she'll probably not rise to mate. But the male dragons and riders aren't relevant. If the queen is ready, her rider's fit, she'll rise.
Man, I really hope this scenario never happens!
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Old Jan 18 2010, 04:11 PM   #9
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Man, I really hope this scenario never happens!
Well, don't you worry, it won't with Anne writing Pern.

Personally, I'd like to see it happen. See what the implications are for a strong Weyrleader to be ousted due to injury. It is something that should happen.
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Old Jan 18 2010, 04:53 PM   #10
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Personally, I'd like to see it happen. See what the implications are for a strong Weyrleader to be ousted due to injury. It is something that should happen.
Well, it might be interesting as to see how F’lar and Lessa deal with it. What do you think, what would happen between the two of them, if somebody else’s dragon flies Ramoth. Would they be grown enough to let the new Weyrleader take over both Lessa (if anyone can, that is) and the Weyr, or would they go and have a secret affair or something like that? And would the new Weyrleader, seeing as to how Pern has moved forward since F’lar took over, would give the role of Weyrleader back to F’lar once he’s back to his feet from the what ever injury that was, or would F’lar have to wait for Ramoth to fly again?
Seeing as to how I put this thread as some other questions, I don’t think this is jumping out of topic. Let’s debate about the earlier questions!
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Old Jan 18 2010, 09:31 PM   #11
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I personally think that, in the particular case of F'lar and Lessa, if Ramoth went into heat and rose, Mnementh would go 'do his thing', regardless. Mnementh is highly intelligent and independent- he takes the initiative well- he's cool. Plus, he's bronze, and it's stated somewhere that the more intelligent dragons, the bronzes and browns and golds, don't really fret as much when their riders are sick. In Skies (I think), it also says that Mnementh is the only bronze Ramoth will ever accept.

Lessa might have to have a 'stand in' (temporarily), so that she can get the mating urge out of her system without hurting F'lar. 'Course that part's kind of up to to the two of them; a personal decision!

I'm with Shalyn--I would like to see that kind of situation happen just to see how the characters handle it. Just out of curiosity. . .

One thing that I wonder about is the green dragons with male riders. Greens can be too amorous for their own good, and their riders can, I beleive, diliberatly choose not to be AS affected by their frequent flights. But what if he's sick in bed (she's frantic, but mating is mating, especially if you're green and have a long tail), and he can't choose to 'ignore' it?
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Old Jan 19 2010, 02:52 PM   #12
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1. It would not have to be a "secret affair." The Weyrwoman and Weyrleader simply have to present a united front as Weyrleaders in public. They don't have to "live together". See Moreta and Sh'gall--they lead the Weyr, but they didn't share a weyr.

2. If F'lar is too weak to withstand a flight, Mnmenth won't fly. No, he's not a stupid dragon--he is smart enough to know not to risk his rider.

3. Stand-ins do not exist in 9th Pass Pern, and as far as we know, NEVER for gold flights at any point in Pern's history. In any case, it would not be Lessa's "urges" that were the problem--if Mnementh won, F'lar will feel what he feels. That's not going to be pretty if he's badly injured or ill.

4. F'lar would have to wait until Ramoth rose again. That, or risk looking like he's exactly what all the so-called "bad guys" accuse him of being--a power-hungry dictatatorial figure.

In any case, I doubt it's a worry, as we'll probably not get any new material from Anne, meaning no Lessa/F'lar stories. Not that she WOULD write something like that happening, but still.
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Old Jan 19 2010, 05:07 PM   #13
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1. It would not have to be a "secret affair." The Weyrwoman and Weyrleader simply have to present a united front as Weyrleaders in public. They don't have to "live together". See Moreta and Sh'gall--they lead the Weyr, but they didn't share a weyr. <snip>
Or in the begining of DE/RSR Telgar Weyrleaders as another, till later in the book.
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Old Jan 19 2010, 05:13 PM   #14
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In any case, I doubt it's a worry, as we'll probably not get any new material from Anne, meaning no Lessa/F'lar stories. Not that she WOULD write something like that happening, but still.
Hmm… now that everyone mentioned it, it would be interesting to see that scene. Although, I would feel really sad for both Lessa and F’lar (especially F’lar). And, if the other Weyrleader gets Lessa, worried for him too.
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Old Jan 20 2010, 12:33 AM   #15
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With the close bond between Lessa & f'lar & the close bond the dragons share with both of the riders I think that if either one of them was too sick or injured to do anything then it would throw Ramoth's cycle off and she would not rise.
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Old Jan 20 2010, 01:13 AM   #16
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1. It would not have to be a "secret affair." The Weyrwoman and Weyrleader simply have to present a united front as Weyrleaders in public. They don't have to "live together". See Moreta and Sh'gall--they lead the Weyr, but they didn't share a weyr.
The first time I read Moreta, I was a hopelessly romantic teen and I had just finished Dragonflight. Dangerous combination, I know! I so wanted Sh'gall to be a F'lar--and oh! I was so disappointed.

But that's just the point. Weyrleaders don't have to be a loving couple to get the job done. Of course it helps if their skills and abilities complement each other, and they communicate, but Romeo y Juliet--nah! It's more a 'business arrangement'. And the Weyrwoman is not (emphasis on the not) the Weyrleader's and he knows it. They just have to have their 'one night stand', and it's more of a physical thing, really.

It always seemed to me that mating dragons, especially golds, have this matriarchal thing going. Golds are supposed to be full of themselves, 'cause they're the top of the food chain. And Weyrs are set up around this. In Lessa's case, she is Senior Weyrwoman. Period. Good thing she seems to like the cloak of authority. The guys are just, well, details. So if Ramoth rose and F'lar was unable to handle it and Mnementh chose not to fly, so somebody else "won" (ouch!), well, tough cookies dude. Sorry, F'lar. I think every Weyrleader worth his weight in firestone knows that he can be replaced; it kind of " comes with the territory" if you get my meaning.

And Lessa would probably keep her relationship going with him. Why not? Whatever happened is not his fault, and beyond his control, so to break anything off would be almost cruel. She wouldn't have to make a secret of it--they are "together" and she can do what she wants.
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Old Jan 20 2010, 01:27 AM   #17
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I got the impression from DE/RSR that K'vin and Zulaya (I hope it's K'vin, right, in that story? Too many ersatz Kevins) sometimes slept together outside flights before he got all manly-man and ripped her bodice and all that...helps with the united front thing, and most dragonriders are much more casual about attachments (see Moreta and her history--really, she's one of the best book examples of someone whose #1 relationship is absolutely her dragon. We know Sh'gall, B'lerion, and D'say at least, plus Alessan, where she's planning to end the relationship because it obviously can't go anywhere.)
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Old Jan 20 2010, 08:25 AM   #18
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So if Ramoth rose and F'lar was unable to handle it and Mnementh chose not to fly, so somebody else "won" (ouch!), well, tough cookies dude. Sorry, F'lar.
If that does happen (hope not) I know I would be very disappointed. And probably cry. I mean, with Lessa and F’lar we didn’t have the Romeo and Juliet scenario – F’lar had to fight to have Lessa and even then, it took them a while before they came to know and understand each other and became really close. So, if somebody else does catch Ramoth, I don’t think it would be easy for him – not with Lessa – I mean, it wasn’t easy even for F’lar! And just think what a hard time Lessa would give to the other guy!
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Old Jan 20 2010, 09:15 AM   #19
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Ya'all seem to be forgetting Mirrim, T'gellan and Talina
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Old Jan 20 2010, 09:27 AM   #20
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Ya'all seem to be forgetting Mirrim, T'gellan and Talina
I always wondered about that.... How would this relationship work exactly? Is it just accepted that T'gellan and Talina would sleep together when their dragons mated? And what about Mirrim? She always struck me as the jealous type, and she certainly had the kind of temperement (i dont think I spelled that right... oh well) that could see her be cruel to Talina if she chose to be. And being T'gellan' mate, she always seemed to accompany him on official Weyr business... when it probably should have been Talina since she was the Weyrwoman...
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Old Jan 20 2010, 09:59 AM   #21
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I always wondered about that.... How would this relationship work exactly? Is it just accepted that T'gellan and Talina would sleep together when their dragons mated? And what about Mirrim? She always struck me as the jealous type, and she certainly had the kind of temperement (i dont think I spelled that right... oh well) that could see her be cruel to Talina if she chose to be. And being T'gellan' mate, she always seemed to accompany him on official Weyr business... when it probably should have been Talina since she was the Weyrwoman...
I didn’t know this; in which book is it?
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Old Jan 20 2010, 10:28 AM   #22
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I always wondered about that.... How would this relationship work exactly? Is it just accepted that T'gellan and Talina would sleep together when their dragons mated? And what about Mirrim? She always struck me as the jealous type, and she certainly had the kind of temperement (i dont think I spelled that right... oh well) that could see her be cruel to Talina if she chose to be. And being T'gellan' mate, she always seemed to accompany him on official Weyr business... when it probably should have been Talina since she was the Weyrwoman...
Yes, but we know how bossy Mirrim is. Mirrim is probably the de facto weyrwoman there (as far as organizing, etc.)

And if she can't handle T'gellan and Talina mating when their dragons mate, then she shouldn't get involved with a Bronze rider.

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Old Jan 20 2010, 11:14 AM   #23
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Yes I can accept that Miss Bossy was de facto Weyrwoman. She must have been able to cope with T'gellan & Talina being together when their dragons mate, because she does stay with them and their union is formalised. Besides, Mirrim grew up in the Weyr and was well informed on how weyr life worked. They also have a kid together. That probably wouldn't stop her being mean to Talina though... although she does calm down a little after her and T'gellan get together. But wouldn't Talina be mighty annoyed with Mirrim taking over her duties?

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Old Jan 20 2010, 12:14 PM   #24
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It was accepted that if T'gellan wanted to be Weyrleader, he slept with Talina. If Mirrim didn't like that, she'd have to either give him an ultimatum (throw the next flight or lose me) or just give up the relationship.

And it depends on what duties Mirrim was taking over, and what Talina thought of them--because if Mirrim wants to manage the lower caverns with the Headwoman, that's really what she was trained to be anyway. Mirrim sitting in as Weyrwoman at a meeting of the Lords, Craftmasters, and Weyrleaders? Probably not so much. Leading the queens' wing? Also not going to happen. She is still only a green rider.

Aside: I wish people would stop holding up Romeo and Juliet as a great romance. It only shows that you completely missed the entire point of the play. (Ie young playboy, who starts out the play moping and pining over the love of his life, ie A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GIRL, sees hot young thing at a party. Hot young thing, who is not really thrilled about her impending marriage o' politics, does typical teen girl thing and is totally infatuated by hot forbidden guy (who promptly forgets the previous love of his life existed.) Because their families are feuding, rather than make any effort whatsoever to resolve things in a rational manner they sneak around, do stupid things, and everyone winds up dead including some quasi-innocent bystanders, though on the plus side the bloodbath prompts their fathers to consider maybe talking this feud thing out. It's not a happy story and people who want to emulate it are MORONS.)
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Old Jan 20 2010, 02:41 PM   #25
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I didn’t know this; in which book is it?
It was mostly in Skies of Pern, with a little bit in Dolphins of Pern.

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Old Jan 20 2010, 02:50 PM   #26
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I'm pretty sure in the Skies of Pern, Tai reflects that Talina is "indolent".
Here's the quote:

"She left the two dragons on the terrace and made for the kitchen. All the lights were on and most of the cupboards left half ajar. There was rather more of a mess to clear up than she'd've thought. Had Mirrim done this on purpose? No, Talina had been with her; Talina might be indolent but she wasn't spiteful" (pg. 355, The Skies of Pern, American edition (I think!))

This happens after the Cove Hold meeting. And if Talina is indolent, she's not very likely to object to Mirrim taking over the onerous duties of Weyrwoman is she?
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Old Jan 20 2010, 06:32 PM   #27
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I'm pretty sure in the Skies of Pern, Tai reflects that Talina is "indolent".
Here's the quote:

"She left the two dragons on the terrace and made for the kitchen. All the lights were on and most of the cupboards left half ajar. There was rather more of a mess to clear up than she'd've thought. Had Mirrim done this on purpose? No, Talina had been with her; Talina might be indolent but she wasn't spiteful" (pg. 355, The Skies of Pern, American edition (I think!))

This happens after the Cove Hold meeting. And if Talina is indolent, she's not very likely to object to Mirrim taking over the onerous duties of Weyrwoman is she?
Also at the Cove Hold meeting the Weyrleader and the both look bad but the two Mirrim and Talina didn't have the full duties of a Weyrwoman.

Search me on that one.
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Old Jan 20 2010, 08:23 PM   #28
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I mean, with Lessa and F’lar we didn’t have the Romeo and Juliet scenario

No, F'lar and Lessa were/are better. Romeo and Juliet are dead, quite thoroughly so, and they never got to see the potential they could have had. On the other hand, F'lar and Lessa conduct themselves like adults, and the relationship they eventually get to have reflects that.

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If that does happen (hope not) I know I would be very disappointed. And probably cry. I mean, with Lessa and F’lar we didn’t have the Romeo and Juliet scenario – F’lar had to fight to have Lessa and even then, it took them a while before they came to know and understand each other and became really close. So, if somebody else does catch Ramoth, I don’t think it would be easy for him – not with Lessa – I mean, it wasn’t easy even for F’lar! And just think what a hard time Lessa would give to the other guy!
A hard time would probably be about all that Lessa "gave" to the other guy (that 'n a black eye!) Anyhow, the other guy, whomever he is, really shouldn't be the 'bad guy' in all this. I'm sure he's very nice, probably quite good-looking, and a good flier. See, there are advantages, you just have to look at it differently!

Seriously though, ideally Lessa would be mature enough to accept reality, sans blubbering, with a minimum of screaming fit. I think she can probably handle that. We all have to do things we don't like. No one is invited to her pity party, if she even bothers.

It would hard for F'lar, no doubt. At least he can take comfort in the fact that Lessa will be right with him, she just has to do her duty. Probably F'nor would hang with him, to kind of help him absorb the fact that.. .he...is...no...longer...Weyrleader (for now) 'Cause that's what Wingseconds are for, not to mention good friends.

P.S. What's that do to F'nor? Is he still Wingsecond?
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Old Jan 20 2010, 08:55 PM   #29
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P.S. What's that do to F'nor? Is he still Wingsecond?
By All the Weyrs of Pern he is a Wingleader.
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Old Jan 21 2010, 08:41 AM   #30
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P.S. What's that do to F'nor? Is he still Wingsecond?
It would be up to the new Weyrleader. He certainly wouldn't be Weyrsecond anymore, and it's possible the new leader would designate a new leader for F'lar's wing on a temporary basis while he's recovering -- in which case the new wingleader might or might not want F'nor as Wingsecond.
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Old Jan 21 2010, 08:59 AM   #31
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A hard time would probably be about all that Lessa "gave" to the other guy (that 'n a black eye!) Anyhow, the other guy, whomever he is, really shouldn't be the 'bad guy' in all this. I'm sure he's very nice, probably quite good-looking, and a good flier. See, there are advantages, you just have to look at it differently!

Seriously though, ideally Lessa would be mature enough to accept reality, sans blubbering, with a minimum of screaming fit. I think she can probably handle that. We all have to do things we don't like. No one is invited to her pity party, if she even bothers.
Of course he isn’t the bad guy! It isn’t he’s fault F’lar was hurt (if that’s the scenario) and that Mnementh decided not to fly. But, try explaining that to Lessa. I mean, it took her years to except F’lar, and he was nice (most of the time), good looking and a good flier, and yet, they had more troubles than good times in the beginning. Nevertheless, she would, probably, at the end, except the facts and wait for Ramoth’s next flight and hope F’lar and Mnementh will be ready.

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It would hard for F'lar, no doubt. At least he can take comfort in the fact that Lessa will be right with him, she just has to do her duty. Probably F'nor would hang with him, to kind of help him absorb the fact that.. .he...is...no...longer...Weyrleader (for now) 'Cause that's what Wingseconds are for, not to mention good friends.
Yeah, it would probably be worse for F’lar. He just got R’gul off of he’s back and got used to being the boss around the Weyr (except for Lessa, of course), and things were just starting to get better between Lessa and him, and then pow! He gets himself hurt and someone else’s dragon flies Ramoth, and he’s stuck with probably being the leader of the escadrille, but not the boss.

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P.S. What's that do to F'nor? Is he still Wingsecond?
I don’t think F’nor ever had the desire to go forward in rank. It looks to my like he’s just happy where he is: being F’lar’s spy, so to say.
And if you mean what would happen if the Weyrleader changes, well, it all depends on a new Weyrleader and who he is. If he was someone who F’lar and F’nor trusted and who helped them, I don’t think he would do anything to F’nor – if he behaves well, of course. And I don’t think Lessa would alow that, if she has a saying in it. F’nor and she are good friend – they were even before F’lar and Lessa started to understand each other, and even before F’lar became Weyrleader.
Now, if the new Weyrleader was someone who didn’t understand F’lar and didn’t support him and his ideas, something will probably have to be done with F’nor. They can always transport him to another Weyr.
But again, I think it will probably be Lessa deciding and putting her hand down, no matter who the new Weyrleader is and what he wants.
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Old Jan 21 2010, 09:00 AM   #32
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It would be up to the new Weyrleader. He certainly wouldn't be Weyrsecond anymore, and it's possible the new leader would designate a new leader for F'lar's wing on a temporary basis while he's recovering -- in which case the new wingleader might or might not want F'nor as Wingsecond.
Cheryl beat me to the answer.
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Old Jan 21 2010, 12:59 PM   #33
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Does someone have a quote from SoP on F'nor being a Wingleader?

I think Lessa would probably be cool to the hypothetical new Weyrleader, but one would hope that post-DF, she is not longer the hot-tempered little psycho. F'lar has always put duty (as he sees it) first, and if that means he's not Weyrleader, he's not going to be a jerk. He spends much of DF getting Lessa to come around to that--Pern and the Weyr first.
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Old Jan 22 2010, 04:54 AM   #34
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If there is a quote of F'nor being Wingleader in The Skies of Pern, I can't find it.
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Old Jan 22 2010, 08:20 AM   #35
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If I remember correctly, wasn't F'nor using one of the empty jr gold weyrs as his own? I could see him losing that perk right fast in this scenario.
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Old Jan 22 2010, 09:13 AM   #36
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Ramoth has quite unequivocally stated that she would not let any other bronze fly her. I can quite easily, especially post-ATWOP when the final solution to thread is already underway, quite simply suiciding to avoid it. Or if the scenario is such that F'lar is injured but Mnementh isn't, Lessa might just rape him in a mating flight to make sure it's consummated. It wouldn't be the best sex ever, but I expect just penetration would be enough...
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Old Jan 22 2010, 11:58 AM   #37
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Ramoth might say that when she's not all horny, but I rather doubt that she'd stick to it if she went into heat. Dragons have been shown to be completely hormonally driven at that time, rather than thoughtful/rational. Golds who get along just fine all the other days of a year become homicidally jealous of other golds. I just can't see Ramoth going into heat and then stopping to angst over the fact that her one true love isn't able to participate.
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Old Jan 22 2010, 01:29 PM   #38
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The one thing that makes me think that Ramoth wouldn't even fly if Mnementh and/or F'lar was injured is the part of Dragonsblood where Wind Blossom is explaining some of the programming in the dragons to Sora on her deathbed. Of course for that to apply, you have to consider Todd's books canon, and/or believe that the dragons didn't evolve enough so that that portion of the programming doesn't apply...
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Old Jan 22 2010, 04:29 PM   #39
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Ramoth has quite unequivocally stated that she would not let any other bronze fly her. I can quite easily, especially post-ATWOP when the final solution to thread is already underway, quite simply suiciding to avoid it. Or if the scenario is such that F'lar is injured but Mnementh isn't, Lessa might just rape him in a mating flight to make sure it's consummated. It wouldn't be the best sex ever, but I expect just penetration would be enough...

That'd be messy.

Ramoth did say, though, that Mnementh is 'her guy' and I finally had time to find the quote. It's on page 58 of Skies of Pern (of my copy; I have the paperback edition), and Lessa is worrying about what would happen if Ramoth ever simply didn't rise to mate due to age. Then she remember their latest flight and how Ramoth had risen and Mnemeth had "conquered". And Ramoth adds that Mnementh was brave and clever and he is the only bronze that she will ever accept, even if he's getting old and sleeps more than he used to.

So while I kind of doubt that this sort of situation would ever happen to Lessa and F'lar in particular, since they are kind of Pern's 'celebrity couple'. it would be very interesting to see this sort of thing happen to another Weyrleader pair (quad?), just to see how they handle it. Ideally, a Weyrleader and Weyrwoman who are quite established in Weyrleadership, and are very into each other as well.

Am I volunteering to write such a scenario? NO, no, I'll exit gracefully if I can. However, I challenge any of the good writers out there (you know who you are), if you're looking for a new project, to go for it and I look foward to reading it.
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Old Jan 22 2010, 04:47 PM   #40
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That'd be messy.
Very. Still, it would be a good way for her to get back at him for what happened during Ramoth’s first mating flight which they both say was rather a rape than a love scene.
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