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Old Jan 20 2008, 06:32 PM   #81
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Under "normal" circumstances, with a "normal" group of people, I agree with you. With a group that might have some serious hang-ups on the issue? Not so much. Admittedly, they're a religious bunch, but consider Jehovah's Witnesses and things like transfusions...
Whoa, whoa, whoa...

They are NOT religious. Religion as we know it today has pretty much vanished. This is mentioned in Dragonsdawn, there is some reference to it basically vanishing by the time the Nathi war was over...

Darn it, I don't have a copy available...

Quote:
I agree. However, moving to the country with a commute is a bit different to signing on to a one-way trip into deep space! No going back. No second chance. No return ticket!
Tell that to Avril...
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Old Jan 20 2008, 06:37 PM   #82
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I agree. But look at my reply to Gidget2 to see where I'm coming from when I say that even such a small degree of atavism in the absolute sense might require a rather radically different or rare individual to undertake it. And that small degree of absolute atavism might appear quite large in a relative sense.
I don't think that the Pernese colonists were considered "normal" by their standards.
There is a desire after war for change. Not to go backwards, but to go in a new direction. For the Pern colonists, this meant developing technologies to let them spread out and to be able to live more healthily.
We know they were not anti-science otherwise they would not have got top-rate scientists with them, especially as no one likes being treated as a second class citizen.
Unless you were a very battered soul you would want to carry on with your work, albeit maybe in a totally different area.

You talked about iphones and things. Giving up on stuff like that is relatively easy. Atavism of the mind is not.
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Old Jan 20 2008, 06:38 PM   #83
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They are NOT religious. Religion as we know it today has pretty much vanished. This is mentioned in Dragonsdawn, there is some reference to it basically vanishing by the time the Nathi war was over...

Darn it, I don't have a copy available...
I do. Am rifling through it to find the bit on religion. I'm sure it's Emily Boll's musings, somewhere near the beginning!! I'll get there!!! LOL

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Tell that to Avril...
Well looked what happened to her ........
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Old Jan 20 2008, 06:44 PM   #84
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Well looked what happened to her ........
Kaboom!


Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
There is a desire after war for change. Not to go backwards, but to go in a new direction. For the Pern colonists, this meant developing technologies to let them spread out and to be able to live more healthily.
There is also the point, that they were happy to use alternative technologies, and keep things simple. We don't know how long that war had gone on for. We get some hints of that in Dragonsblood, and the dependancies of technology at the time. I think it's perfectly understandable people would seek an alternative life after all that.

As for all the talk of religion - aside from the references in Dragonsdawn, there is also Anne's hard and fast statement that there is no religion on Pern. As it's her world, she should know
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Old Jan 20 2008, 06:46 PM   #85
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Not the religion quote, but something interesting from the end of Chapter 1:

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[Avril was] scarcely the sort of personality who would be comfortable in a rural environment. She had all the sophisticated manners of the citified. The Pern Expedition had attracted some first-rate talents and people, but most of those to whom Sallah had talked had been motivated to leave behind the Technicratic society, Syndicate-ridden, with an ever-spiralling need for resources.

Sallah liked the thought of being so far from Earth and ... of living on a self-reliant planet.
Still looking for the religion one!

Update: Will add it when I find it. Which won't be now as my eyes hurt! LOL Have to save myself for visiting the Terracotta Army exhibition at the British Museum tomorrow!!!
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Old Jan 20 2008, 07:52 PM   #86
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Whoa, whoa, whoa...

They are NOT religious. Religion as we know it today has pretty much vanished. This is mentioned in Dragonsdawn, there is some reference to it basically vanishing by the time the Nathi war was over...

Darn it, I don't have a copy available...
I think the "they" he was referring to was Jehovah's Witnesses, as in, "I know JW's are religious, but look at them...."
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Old Jan 20 2008, 08:44 PM   #87
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No, in the quote above the colonists are COMPARED to Jehovah's witnesses.
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Old Jan 20 2008, 10:00 PM   #88
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Under "normal" circumstances, with a "normal" group of people, I agree with you. With a group that might have some serious hang-ups on the issue? Not so much. Admittedly, they're a religious bunch, but consider Jehovah's Witnesses and things like transfusions. Some totally counter-intuitive decision-making happens there. And religion isn't necessary for counter-intuitive decision-making, merely strong belief in one ideal or another.
I think you're reading it wrong, Brenda. He could have been clearer, but the way I read that is "Admitedly, they're [JW] religous..." because he goes on to say "religion isn't necessary for [blah]". He's just using JW's as an example, even though they (JW) are religious, I think.

I guess we'll see when he tells us.
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Old Jan 20 2008, 11:04 PM   #89
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Ah... I think I see where that is. Thanks.
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Old Jan 22 2008, 09:36 PM   #90
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I don't think the phrase "counter-intuitive" is a particularly positive term. But that's just me.



I can't talk for America, obviously, but here in Britain it's a bit different.



I agree. However, moving to the country with a commute is a bit different to signing on to a one-way trip into deep space! No going back. No second chance. No return ticket!



Probably right. In a society loaded with technology and all the other things, anyone wanting to yell STOP and live on a "mudball" would be looked down upon. However, according to the FSP, there is nobody left on Pern, the system is interdicted and the few remaining survivors were probably shuffled off somewhere quiet and out-of-the-way. So just another bunch of crazies who disappeared and failed. Colonies failing was probably something the FSP faced and would have to admit to.



I agree. However, would you want to live your life according to the whims and morals of that section of society who do care about those things? I know I wouldn't!! LOL Better off away from them!

Besides, Mars isn't that bad!
I place no emotional weighting on the term "counter-intuitive." It just means they're making a decision or coming to a conclusion that most would not immediately or easily arrive at.

I honestly don't know how different things are between America and Britain, but I have (I'm not dissing Britain here, so nobody freak out) found hypocrisy to be a fairly universal human failing.

Regarding buying tickets with somebody that burns the ships on arrival, that does pretty much suck if you haven't signed on with the second-coming of Cortez (of course, that's not such a good deal for any locals...).

Mars is okay, but the view from Titan is fabulous!
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Old Jan 22 2008, 09:37 PM   #91
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Whoa, whoa, whoa...

They are NOT religious. Religion as we know it today has pretty much vanished. This is mentioned in Dragonsdawn, there is some reference to it basically vanishing by the time the Nathi war was over...

Darn it, I don't have a copy available...

Tell that to Avril...
I think you may have misunderstood me. I was not saying the Pernese were religious.
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Old Jan 22 2008, 09:39 PM   #92
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You talked about iphones and things. Giving up on stuff like that is relatively easy. Atavism of the mind is not.
Not for everybody! With some of the people I know, I think you'd have to amputate. LOL
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Old Jan 22 2008, 09:40 PM   #93
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I think the "they" he was referring to was Jehovah's Witnesses, as in, "I know JW's are religious, but look at them...."
Correct.
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Old Jan 22 2008, 09:42 PM   #94
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No, in the quote above the colonists are COMPARED to Jehovah's witnesses.
Correct, the Pernese colonists are compared to both a religious example (JWs) and a non-religious example (Communists) to point out that religion is not a necessary factor.
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Old Jan 23 2008, 05:50 AM   #95
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Regarding buying tickets with somebody that burns the ships on arrival, that does pretty much suck if you haven't signed on with the second-coming of Cortez (of course, that's not such a good deal for any locals...).
Mmmmmmm. Well, Avril aside, all the colonists did know the score and signed on for not only the long haul, but also the very act of ship-burning itself. And without Thread, I think that they would have made a fine job of it too! (Apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, how was the show? )

What was the original point to this Thread again?
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Old Jan 23 2008, 06:24 AM   #96
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What was the original point to this Thread again?
To spread confusion?
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Old Jan 23 2008, 06:30 AM   #97
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To spread confusion?
If not dissension ......

(Although I can't remember for the life of me what I'm trying to quote or reference .... "spreading dissension" .....

Later: Ok, I've remembered now. It's a line in a song in The Rocky Horror Show. Crisis averted LOL)

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Old Jan 23 2008, 11:34 PM   #98
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What was the original point to this Thread again?
To provoke thought. If thought = dissent...then it's probably like beauty.
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Old Jan 24 2008, 04:30 AM   #99
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And there I was thinking it was just provoking...

Silly me!
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Old Jan 24 2008, 05:28 AM   #100
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To provoke thought. If thought = dissent...then it's probably like beauty.
Clearly I was joking with my question, and Hans' post reminded me of a song. I wasn't saying anything about dissent, dissenters or anything being in anybody's eye.
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Old Jan 24 2008, 12:44 PM   #101
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Did someone ask for Emily Boll's quote on religion in Dragonsdawn?

Quote:
"We may not be religious in the archaic meaning of the word, but it makes good sense to give worker and beast one day’s rest. The old Judean Bible used by some of the old religious sects on Earth contained a great many commonsensible suggestions for an agricultural society, and some moral and ethical traditions which are worthy of retention - but without any hint of fanatic adherence! We left that back on Earth along with war!"
Then there's a nice one from Marco Galliani in Beyond Between:

Quote:
"Where I came from we had quite a few belief systems. Some were very useful; some were very misused. But I won’t go into all that now. Beyond everything, though, the one tenet the people of my world cherished was that there is a part of us that’s more than bones and blood."
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Old Jan 24 2008, 04:06 PM   #102
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There's also a bit at the opening of Dragonsong, when Menolly is trying to figure out where Petiron went - he didn't go between, because he had left his body behind.

And in AtWoP, there's that song she writes:

"Get up, take heart
Go - make a start
Sing out the truth you came for
That when you die
Your heart may fly
To Halls we have no name for."
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Old Jan 24 2008, 06:00 PM   #103
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I've always liked what F'lar or F'nor (I forgot) said as an exclamation: "By the void that spawned us"

Might they have vaguely remembered they came from blackest space?
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Old Jan 24 2008, 09:43 PM   #104
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Clearly I was joking with my question, and Hans' post reminded me of a song. I wasn't saying anything about dissent, dissenters or anything being in anybody's eye.
I know you were joking. It's just that languages are such a wonderful plaything...

Count yourself lucky that my friend the obnoxious punster with a thing for limericks has different interests...

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Old Jan 24 2008, 09:44 PM   #105
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I've always liked what F'lar or F'nor (I forgot) said as an exclamation: "By the void that spawned us"

Might they have vaguely remembered they came from blackest space?
Given that there is no religion to provide a competing creation myth, I'd find it odd if they did forget that fact.
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Old Jan 25 2008, 05:35 AM   #106
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I don't.
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Old Jan 25 2008, 09:24 AM   #107
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ED: you won't get away. I too am an
Quote:
obnoxious punster with a thing for limericks
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Old Jan 25 2008, 11:56 AM   #108
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ED: you won't get away. I too am an obnoxious punster with a thing for limericks
I can attest to that
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Old Jan 26 2008, 12:34 PM   #109
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I don't.
The reason I do is that Pernese society remains fairly small and fairly static. Much of human history falls into the same category, yet we have plenty of myths and legends that we know to this day which originated 2500 years ago.

Given the origin of Pernese society as considerably more advanced and aware than any of the societies in present human history, I think that would be a pretty difficult memory to erase from the collective conscious.
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Old Jan 26 2008, 12:35 PM   #110
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ED: you won't get away. I too am an
Oh great, there are two you! We really have to start chlorinating the gene pool... LOL
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Old Jan 26 2008, 03:17 PM   #111
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Then why are they so surprised to find the shuttles at Landing?
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Old Jan 26 2008, 03:20 PM   #112
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DOH!!!

I just remembered that all-important phrase!

"When mankind first came to Pern, he settled in the South, but found it necessary to move North to shield."

So they know that mankind came to Pern from somewhere else. But that was all that they remembered.
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Old Jan 26 2008, 04:40 PM   #113
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That's the book intro Brenda, which isn't being told by any specific character. And I think it goes on to say that they forgot their origins...
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Old Jan 26 2008, 04:58 PM   #114
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[teletubbyvoice]Oh oh[/teletubbyvoice]

I misunderstood Cheryl's remark and opened a Pern ebook to read the introduction... It happened to be Dragonquest and I read:

Quote:
Rukbat, in the Sagittarian Sector, was a golden G-type star. It had five planets, two asteroid belts, and a stray planet it had attracted and held in recent millennia. When men first settled on Rukbat’s third world and called it Pern, they had taken little notice of the stranger planet, swinging around its adopted primary in a wildly erratic elliptical orbit. For two generations, the colonists gave the bright red star little thought — until the desperate path of the wanderer brought it close to its stepsister at perihelion.
Two generations? Uh...

Did I stumble on something or has this been discussed earlier? I must say I never paid enough attention to the general introduction even though I know that it changed when the series grew larger

I also did a search for the Mankind sentence but the only volumes that came up were AtWoP, RoP and SoP... and they don't give it exactly as either Brenda or Chery remembers them. Can either of you pinpoint me to a location?
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Old Jan 26 2008, 05:04 PM   #115
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[teletubbyvoice]Oh oh[/teletubbyvoice]

I misunderstood Cheryl's remark and opened a Pern ebook to read the introduction... It happened to be Dragonquest and I read:



Two generations? Uh...

Did I stumble on something or has this been discussed earlier? I must say I never paid enough attention to the general introduction even though I know that it changed when the series grew larger
I noticed when I first read Dragonsdawn, back in the early 90's... I definitely wasn't expecting Thread to start falling so soon!
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Old Jan 26 2008, 06:17 PM   #116
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The original "introduction" for Dragonsflight had it as "within a few generations" and that for Dragonsquest as "for two generations".

Don't tell me I was the only one to groan and mentally file the discrepancy when Anne went back in time to write Dragonsdawn and had thread falling within the first decade on Pern?
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Old Jan 26 2008, 07:12 PM   #117
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I've noticed that discrepancy before as to the timing of the first fall. I'd have to say that it made sense to have it come sooner though -- on the original colonists who still had their full scientific training, and supplies/technology brought with still mostly in working order. If the first fall hit a could generations later, too much would have been lost, and certainly there'd have been no one that could engineer the dragons.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 12:35 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Cheryl View Post
I've noticed that discrepancy before as to the timing of the first fall. I'd have to say that it made sense to have it come sooner though -- on the original colonists who still had their full scientific training, and supplies/technology brought with still mostly in working order. If the first fall hit a could generations later, too much would have been lost, and certainly there'd have been no one that could engineer the dragons.
Concur.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 04:52 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheryl View Post
I've noticed that discrepancy before as to the timing of the first fall. I'd have to say that it made sense to have it come sooner though -- on the original colonists who still had their full scientific training, and supplies/technology brought with still mostly in working order. If the first fall hit a could generations later, too much would have been lost, and certainly there'd have been no one that could engineer the dragons.
It also makes a lot more sense from the point of view of needing to write a good story - the early stages of colonisation make a very interesting read, but if she'd stuck with the several generations time-lag, none of it would be usable - unless she went with a multi-generation story, but I think that'd have been a much weaker option. The way -Dawn was written, she gets to show compelling characters with galactic expertise do both things: settle down, and ensure their survival.
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Old Jan 27 2008, 07:01 PM   #120
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I thought the quote was said by Robinton in one of the books, possibly white dragon.
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