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Old Jan 10 2005, 10:53 AM   #1
edith
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Exclamation Mirrim

I have decided to post why I think that you’re being a bit harsh to the character of Mirrim. I’m not a psychologist or even an English student, but here goes.

1.0. Portrayals of Mirrim.

Mirrim is portrayed in various ways throughout the books depending mainly on the point of view of the main character.

1.1 Dragonquest.

Here Mirrim is portrayed as the foster child of Brekke. She is portrayed first of all as the slightly shy (!) fosterling that impresses 3 firelizards and later on is shown helping out in various ways. When Brekke loses Wirenth she is the one who arrives with drinks for the disappointed bronze riders and is expected to keep her head. Towards the end of the book Brekke realises that she is becoming a bit bossy and mentions that she will “have to take that child in hand.”

1.2 Dragonsong

This is probably the book in which Mirrim is portrayed most positively. She is described as having a face that is “…sad, tired and oddly mature.” She talks before she thinks a lot. She is overworking herself- she seems to be always tired. She is already very friendly with T’gellan. Although it isn’t mentioned in so many words Mirrim’s ambitions at the time seem to be to become Headwoman, and the women in the lower caverns seem to influence her.

1.3 Dragonsinger

The only mention of Mirrim here is that Menolly misses her.

1.4 Dragondrums

This is in Piemur’s viewpoint. Piemur finds her bossy and unpleasant to start with but as soon as he and Sebell help her with arrangements, she relaxes and Piemur’s opinions improve and she is described as a nice character.

1.4 The White Dragon

This is the book where Mirrim is portrayed most negatively as the book is in the point of view of Jaxom who dislikes Mirrim. Mirrim is constantly portrayed as bossy and an irritant especially when Path is proddy. She is sent back to Benden in disgrace after losing her temper over Jaxom.

1.5 Renegades of Pern

Here Mirrim is mentioned only once near the beginning of the book where Hamian has been talking to F’nor and tells Sharra the news including the puzzling phrase. “Mirrim’s a pain in the neck, but she’ll change if she lives and has her health.” (p. 73 DelRay hardback)

1.6 All the Weyrs of Pern.

Although the book is mainly in Jaxom’s viewpoint Mirrim is portrayed positively. She shows a determination to learn and a lot of competition. For example the glass tools and her struggle to learn near the beginning. It is here where we first find that T’gellan and Mirrim are weyrmates. “Mirrim followed on T’gellan’s heels but then the two from the Eastern Weyr were never far apart since they had declared themselves weyrmates. Mirrim had certainly bloomed and relaxed in the warmth of his preference.” (P 57 Corgi edition)

1.7 The Skies of Pern

Mirrim is portrayed in a mixed way in this book. During the Tsunami she shows her organisational side motivating everybody. However, later on she is portrayed more negatively, not believing Tai about the pelts and not training Tai properly, although this is more F’lessan’s opinion as Tai says Mirrim did train her but that she hadn’t preferred anybody!

2.0 Mirrim’s personality.

Mirrim is consistently portrayed as bossy in the books, very competitive and a bit spiteful. However she is also portrayed as intelligent, courageous and a good friend.

3.0 Mirrim’s upbringing.

Mirrim’s upbringing is vital in understanding her personality. Her early life appears to be very unstable with little security.

3.1 Before Brekke

Little is known about Mirrim’s life before Brekke. She is the daughter of a blue rider who had many lovers and must have been fostered by someone else before Brekke as Brekke could only have known Mirrim a couple of years as Wirenth is young. Using Ramoth’s age in DF as a guide Brekke could only have impressed a couple of years before Dragon Quest. What was Mirrim’s life like before this? She seems to have been an unwanted child.

3.2 Southern Weyr

Mirrim appears to be a very serious child with a lot of responsibility. Brekke is really too busy to look after her and Mirrim is brought up in an atmosphere where you have to work hard and not get any credit.

3.3 After Wirenth’s death

Mirrim is on her own again really. She looks after Brekke but in effect she has no foster parent and is on her own in the Lower caverns, it is here that she is influenced by the likes of Manora and Felena. Because of her tendency to take on too much responsibility. (A tendency shared by Brekke) she is unpopular with some of the women in the weyr.

3.4 Impressing Path

Impression is supposed to be the most important event in a rider’s life. But for Mirrim the impression is that immediately after Impression she has a hard time of it from Lessa, who believes that she influenced the egg, and other people-especially non-riders who felt it unfair that a girl should impress.

3.5 Post impression

This must have been an awkward time for Mirrim especially in terms of Path’s rising to mate. There was no one really for Mirrim to talk to as Gold riders and male greenriders are in slightly different positions to her. She would be feeling unsure of herself and very nervous especially as she has grown up with Brekke’s inhibitions and the fatal mating flight. Jaxom’s jibes couldn’t have helped at all with her nerves. The comments were very cruel and assuming that proddiness is equivalent to MAJOR PMT, she would have been feeling all twisted up and wrong anyway.

4.0 As T’gellan’s mate

Mirrim is said to have mellowed as T’gellan’s mate and in the last two books she is obviously very close to him and in ATWOP she is very much more relaxed than before. It is probably the most secure she has been in her life. For the first time she has someone who will care for her properly and for the long run. It has been said on the board that she is only sleeping with the boss, but evidence throughout the series shows that she is always close to T’gellan from Dragonsong, where they are obviously close friends. Perhaps the dragon that Path prefers in TWD is Monarth and Mirrim is embarrassed either that she has influenced her dragon, or that she will have to face matters. On the other hand if the dragon is not Monarth perhaps Mirrim is scared of sleeping with someone who she doesn’t fancy at all.
I think that it shows great loyalty on Mirrim’s part that she obviously doesn’t hate Talina or feel violated that T’gellan has had Monarth fly Arwith.

5.0 When T’gellan’s weyrleader.

Mirrim is very much a third weyrleader. Talina is described as indolent and as is shown in various cases an indolent weyrwoman can cause disaster. However, Mirrim’s personality balances Talina’s and so the weyr is organised. She is almost a headwoman in many ways.

6.0 Conclusion

In conclusion I would say that Mirrim is a strong female character, the type of which many forum members complain of the lack of! Her bad upbringing has enhanced her bossiness and also made her too hardworking. In the earlier books she obviously is overworked. She is more mellow in the later books due to the security of being T’gellan’s weyrmate and this shows especially in ATWOP, however she doesn’t overmellow like most other female characters in the books.

There you go everyone. You can tear me to pieces now!

Edi
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Old Jan 10 2005, 11:12 AM   #2
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Default Re: Mirrim

You presented that well, Edith. :clap:

Actually, I found Mirrim annoying because she does have a tendency to speak before she thinks, and not make sure of who may be listening. It's not really spite, just thoughtlessness.
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Old Jan 10 2005, 12:37 PM   #3
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I noticed that too. I used to do that alot too though!
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Old Jan 10 2005, 03:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Mirrim

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
I noticed that too. I used to do that alot too though!
Thanks for that very good post. I wish you'd post it in the Mirrim thread at the NKT too (haven't checked it yet today, so for all I know you may already have done so). I relate a lot to Mirrim. Before the age of about 15 I was painfully shy. After that I was outspoken to a fault, to the point of sometimes only opening my mouth to change feet! I only grew up and mellowed in my early twenties. So I spent nearly 10 years being Mirrim, with the one exception that I've never taken on more work than I've been assigned.
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Old Jan 10 2005, 03:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: Mirrim

perhaps thats why some people dont like her-they can see themselves in her!
though thats also why I like her.
I'm not a member of the NKT Granath. But post it if you want as long as you acknowledge me as the author. It might come out a bit weird from a male poster though. I doubt you've experienced PMT!
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Old Jan 10 2005, 05:47 PM   #6
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Default Re: Mirrim

I would never group Mirrim with Thella or Kylara but I don't like her. I've known a lot of Mirrims over the years and didn't like them either. But you don't have to like someone personally to respect them and recognize that they have valuable qualities. I work with some people I don't see ever being friends but we have mutual respect and appreciation for each other and work together very well, on the whole.

I think Mirrim is a very well-defined character and very important to the overall theme of all the Dragonrider books. After all, it takes all kinds to make a world!
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Old Jan 10 2005, 07:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: Mirrim

An excellent analysis, edith!

I don't mind Mirrim, especially when she's not being annoying. I've known people who irritated me even more than she did, and there was always a good reason for why they acted the way they did....




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Old Jan 10 2005, 07:45 PM   #8
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Default Re: Mirrim

Very well argued Edih! :applause:

I agree mostly, and again my main criticism is that she speaks before she thinks. (in that way I am quite like Mirrim )
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Old Jan 10 2005, 07:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: Mirrim

I have to agree with Sandi. I don't think Mirrim's evil (though bizarre as it is I have to side with Jaxom in thinking, proddy green or no, a couple of her remarks about Ruth are way over the line into shrew territory) but she's not a particularly nice person. And I do think, Edith, you're really not giving Talina enough credit--the only person's word we have that she's at all indolent is Tai, and it's vaguely phrased to boot. Mirrim isn't needed to act as Weyrwoman, and she doesn't seem to--instead she seems to butt in on Weyrleader matters, including meetings where a green rider normally wouldn't belong. She's not EVIL, but she's not a person I'd tolerate for long, at least not without slapping her down for her mouth a few times.
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Old Jan 10 2005, 08:34 PM   #10
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Default Re: Mirrim

Quote:
Originally Posted by c_ris
Very well argued Edih! :applause:

I agree mostly, and again my main criticism is that she speaks before she thinks. (in that way I am quite like Mirrim )
I agree...those are the same reason why Mirrim really gets on my nerves.

But I guess you could also say I don't like her because I see myself in her. I've never liked people that remind me of myself. I'm working on changing those qualities but I'm only 19, I'll mellow in my old age I think lol. Anyway, Mirrim mostly gets on my nerves because of her bossiness and not thinking before she speaks. I don't like that she takes on all that responsibility of being headwoman/third weyrleader when she's only a green rider. But I do understand why she does it. I mean, look at her foster mother Brekke, she was a GOLD rider and had all the responsibility of havign a fosterling and being weyr healer to the injured dragons in southern. So I understand where Mirrim got it from.
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Old Jan 10 2005, 10:23 PM   #11
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Big Grin Re: Mirrim

I for one really like Mirrim whose name is a mirror mirriM
But then I like strong minded women and don't understand whyso many other women are upset by them... give me a woman who speaks her mind and is not keeping her good ideas to herself just because she is a girl.
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Old Jan 11 2005, 01:12 AM   #12
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Default Re: Mirrim

I rather like Mirrim, I just wish there was a little more depth to her character. I'd like to know more about her. She's not at all like me, nor is she someone I would consider a friend IRL, but she sure brought some spirit to "The White Dragon."
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Old Jan 11 2005, 04:34 AM   #13
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Default Re: Mirrim

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
perhaps thats why some people dont like her-they can see themselves in her!
though thats also why I like her.
I'm not a member of the NKT Granath. But post it if you want as long as you acknowledge me as the author. It might come out a bit weird from a male poster though. I doubt you've experienced PMT!
Eh? I was female last time I checked. That's why I recognize myself in her.
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Old Jan 11 2005, 10:37 AM   #14
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Default Re: Mirrim

Quote:
Originally Posted by TamTam
I rather like Mirrim, I just wish there was a little more depth to her character. I'd like to know more about her. She's not at all like me, nor is she someone I would consider a friend IRL, but she sure brought some spirit to "The White Dragon."
I agre. A strpry from Mirrim's point of view would be nice i think.
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Old Jan 11 2005, 01:37 PM   #15
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Default Re: Mirrim

Quote:
Originally Posted by granath
Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
perhaps thats why some people dont like her-they can see themselves in her!
though thats also why I like her.
I'm not a member of the NKT Granath. But post it if you want as long as you acknowledge me as the author. It might come out a bit weird from a male poster though. I doubt you've experienced PMT!
Eh? I was female last time I checked. That's why I recognize myself in her.
could've fooled us?

*SNORT* Bwa-ha-ha!

sorry, granath--I just couldn't resist It's your name--but we've all had that discussion before (and yes, I still sometimes have to check your profile to remember you're female--but at least I do remember )

Reguarding Mirrim, I pretty much agree with Edith's analysis. I would say that she's probably THE most developed and realistic of Anne's characters in that her over all nature doesn't change, but her personality does evove over time. Certainly, and especially, with her being generally in a supporting and background role. Even Robinton isn't as well developed as she is as much as he's mostly a supporting character himself throughout the entire series.

And I've noticed that Anne often focuses on one or two specific characters for her books, but then the next book barely touches them again:

Lessa and F'lar for DF, F'nor, Brekke, and Kylara in DQ, Menolly in DSong & Singer, Piemur in Drums, and Jaxom in TWD and Weyrs, but you hardly see each of them in each other's books. Lessa & F'lar all but disappear in the second half of DQ after they resolved the Oldtimers issue. Brekke, F'nor and Kylara are barely mentioned in passing in TWD while Lessa and F'lar are bookends. Menolly's pretty much out of the picture for Drums. What Piemur in TWD?? Jaxom only shows up in Renegades when Piemur arrives at the Cove as the book reaches the same time period that's covered in TWD.

Also, Renegades broke her normal pattern in that Anne didn't seem to actually have a single focus--jumping haphazardly from Thella to Piemure to Jagye to Torric to Aramina.
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Old Jan 12 2005, 11:26 AM   #16
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Default Re: Mirrim

sorry Granath
It was the name...
did you post it?
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Old Jan 12 2005, 03:07 PM   #17
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Default Re: Mirrim

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
sorry Granath
It was the name...
did you post it?
Not yet, as I didn't find a Mirrim thread.

One will probably show up sooner rather than later, but I'll save it until it does.

Don't worry about the gender mistake, I think it's funny!
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Old Jan 12 2005, 06:34 PM   #18
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Default Re: Mirrim

There's a book called "Dragonfire" by Jody Lynn Nye which is a "Crossroads Adventure" story authorised by Anne back in 1988. The main character is Mirrim, you might find it interesting.

PS: Although it's out of print, there are usually a couple of copies around on e-bay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c_ris
I agre. A strpry from Mirrim's point of view would be nice i think.
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Old Jan 12 2005, 06:58 PM   #19
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oh really? i gotta get one!
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Old Jan 13 2005, 10:17 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anneli
There's a book called "Dragonfire" by Jody Lynn Nye which is a "Crossroads Adventure" story authorised by Anne back in 1988. The main character is Mirrim, you might find it interesting.

PS: Although it's out of print, there are usually a couple of copies around on e-bay.
runs off to search ebay

edit: not one there now
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Old Jan 13 2005, 06:27 PM   #21
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Did you try on the US e-bay?

I got my copy of Dragonfire from a friend, but it took me over a year to get a copy of Jody Lynn Nye's other Pernese Crossroad Adventure, Dragonharper, at a price I was willing to pay. Obviously the postage from the US increases the total quite a lot, but it was the only way so I decided it was worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c_ris
runs off to search ebay

edit: not one there now
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Old Jan 13 2005, 07:41 PM   #22
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If you can't find Dragonfire or Dragonharper on eBay, try Amazon's used-book service. I got both mine there for less than $10 each.
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Old Jan 18 2005, 12:11 AM   #23
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Default Re: Mirrim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anneli
There's a book called "Dragonfire" by Jody Lynn Nye which is a "Crossroads Adventure" story authorised by Anne back in 1988. The main character is Mirrim, you might find it interesting.
"Crossroads Adventure?" That's like "Choose Your Own Adventure," right? Where you read a few pages, and then make a desicion about what the character should do, then read a few more pages, then choose again, etc. Am I on the right track?
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Old Jan 18 2005, 06:24 AM   #24
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Default Re: Mirrim

Nice one edith.
A very interesting and thought provoking summary of a very 'real' person.

I feel that when Mirrim is introduced, she is a frightened and insecure little girl, who is not only unsure of herself but also of where she fits in to the social structure around her, she seems to be scared that she might not be wanted and is worried about being rejected...Where would she go and what would she do?
She trys very hard to be all things to all people (to try to fit in) and comes across as a busy-body, when all she really wants and needs is a definiting of a role for herself.
Her self image is very low and she appears to start seeing herself as abit of martyr and very hard done by...Look at all the work I do and nobody even notices, let alone says thank you!... I think most women can indentify with that feeling!
It's no wonder that she comes across as bitter and spiteful, at least she being noticed if only for her comments! Yet when she raises to a challenge
she's more sure of herself and then is perceived to be hard and her no nonsense attitude is mistaken for bossyness, yet she has started orginised things before anyone else has even thought of what needs doing, no wonder she's annoyed when her work and foresight is taken the wrong way. She must feel like shes banging her head against the proverbalbe brick wall!
When she is shown any kindness she finds it hard to accept at face value but as soon as she knows the sincerity of it she grows and gives of herself but there is always that insecurity haunting her.
Her past is still very much part of her make up, and the reason that she reacts as she does. When she feels truely loved and valued, she's a much nicer person, which is what she is underneath all the life long insecurity.
Just my thoughts on a well writted and well rounded character.
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Old Jan 18 2005, 06:37 AM   #25
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Default Re: Mirrim

that more or less sumns up what i was trying to say.
thanks
Sassie.

Now how come I spend hours writing an essay and everyone else can sum things up in a few lines!
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Old Jan 18 2005, 11:32 AM   #26
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Default Re: Mirrim

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
that more or less sumns up what i was trying to say.
thanks
Sassie.

Now how come I spend hours writing an essay and everyone else can sum things up in a few lines!

Because you DID write an essay, complete with points of illustration, and Sassie wrote a summary, which is meant to be short.
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Old Jan 18 2005, 11:35 AM   #27
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yes but I coyldnt sum it up!
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Old Jan 19 2005, 06:28 AM   #28
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Don't be hard on yourself Edith, you can't do a summary unless the hard work of a strongly defined and well constructed essay is done first, and that's what you had achieved!
I must admit that I did my 'A's' &'O's' in English lit' and lang' as well as being a Social worker for many years and although my Exams were many, many years ago (I don't want to say how long ago but those bloody slates and chalks were heavy not to mention the blisters from the clogs!!!!) I'm used to looking at cause and effect when talk to or about about a person. It used to be really hard to turn off my Social Worker Head, as it's really easy to find myself analysising everyone I meet and it's too easy to start empathysing with folks, this meant that I was the one stuck in the corner of the kitchen at parties with the sad sack telling me all their woes! In the end I used to say I worked for the local council!
I always use to find that when I'd written an essay (As long as you have'nt
left until the last minute as I usually did!) and was happy with it, leave it over night or at least a couple of hours, then re-read it. This helps as it gives you some distance, and don't be tempted to overwork it and then check that you have picked all the salient points in the piece, have a cup of Coffee/Tea or whatever and think....now write a rough summary..think some more, re-read and refer back to the main piece if you need to, then write your summary. I know that this seems really complicated but it's a good way of working and you will find it easier the more you use it. give yourself some space and to think.
I think I would find it really hard to go back into studying as it is a frame of mind and mine was lost ages ago!
What are you studying by the way?
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Old Jan 19 2005, 06:59 AM   #29
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physics...
hence th lab report style.
thanks.
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Old Jan 19 2005, 08:43 AM   #30
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Actually, edith, I'm glad you did submit it as you did. It is very easy to read and understand. You did a great job!

Mirrim has always been one of my favorite characters, and like her or not, I think she's one of Anne's best written characters.
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Old Jan 19 2005, 09:28 AM   #31
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Shes far more realistic too than some-especially people like Jaxom.
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Old Jan 19 2005, 05:40 PM   #32
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yeah...
even though there are all these books on Jaxom, Mirrim is much more well-defined.
(great job, edith!)
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Old Jan 19 2005, 06:52 PM   #33
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I thought Jaxom is realistically done as a character--just not as well developed as Mirrim. In fact, most of Anne's characters are "realistic", even Thella---but there's often major GAPS between one point in the person's life and then suddenly, the person's completely different--without any explaination on how they got that way. Thella was one such expample which makes her seem so much the cartoon villain. Lessa, F'lar, Jaxom, and Torric are all done the same way. Mirrim on the other hand, you see so much of her development over time, even as she's such a minor character to the story. I just wish more had been spent on the other people.
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Old Jan 20 2005, 02:13 AM   #34
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I agree with you Ruyy. The best (or should it be worst?) example of this is Aramina. There's no explanation of how she went from a teenager who overcame some quite severe problems (both with Thella and later at the Weyr) to become the íntolerable shrew and intolerant mother.
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Old Jan 20 2005, 04:15 AM   #35
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perhaps it was the shock + insecurity of all that happened that she became over-protective
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Old Feb 20 2005, 08:26 PM   #36
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You have put up a great arguement, Edith! Well, I have always admired Mirrim but have not known why. She has just seemed kind and generous, especially when Brekke lost her queen. Also, she seems to keep her head more than other females.
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Old Mar 31 2005, 01:35 PM   #37
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I've been re-reading the Pern books since joining a Pern RPG group online. I like Mirrim, she's intriguing. I like her as well as any heroine of Pern, and more than Lessa.

She seems a character that in the books at least rubs people the wrong way but is really very generous and only wants to help anyway she can. She seems to have been given too much responsibility too young and for too long and was also taken for granted. I think I got that impression from THE WHITE DRAGON. She's much more relaxed in ALL THE WEYRS OF PERN.

She's one of the characters that I wish had her own story, even if it's just a short story in an anthology.

Interesting thread, thanks for starting it!
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Old Mar 31 2005, 04:03 PM   #38
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I'm going to have to post the short fanfic I wrote about her.

*edit*
Oops! I didn't even realize that this site doesn't have a place for fanfics, etc. I'll put it in the NKT.

Last edited by Brenda; Mar 31 2005 at 04:20 PM.
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Old Apr 2 2005, 05:13 AM   #39
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Default Re: Mirrim

Quote:
Originally Posted by madame_president
I've been re-reading the Pern books since joining a Pern RPG group online. I like Mirrim, she's intriguing. I like her as well as any heroine of Pern, and more than Lessa.

She seems a character that in the books at least rubs people the wrong way but is really very generous and only wants to help anyway she can. She seems to have been given too much responsibility too young and for too long and was also taken for granted. I think I got that impression from THE WHITE DRAGON. She's much more relaxed in ALL THE WEYRS OF PERN.

She's one of the characters that I wish had her own story, even if it's just a short story in an anthology.

Interesting thread, thanks for starting it!
I would say that Mirrim had responisbilty thrust upon her and in order to help Brekke who had the responsibilty of being both a Queenrider and the nurse on her shoulders. I'm glad to see that the idea of Mirrim sleeping(that awful euphenism) her way to the top has been dispelled somewhat. Sya what you like about Mirrim she is at least a worker and it would seem actually is working for everyones best interests not her own.
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Old Apr 2 2005, 04:30 PM   #40
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Here's the link to my story on the NKT.

Mirrim's Vigil

Showing a little of her vulnerable side, that she keeps inside.
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