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Old Dec 1 2007, 05:11 PM   #1
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Default Pernese Beauty Products

I know that for the general population of Pern, vanity is something that they simply do not have the time for (or the extra marks for luxury purchases). However, everyone wants to look nice at some point or another, and for some levels of society it would be imagined that beauty products would be considered de rigeour (such as the Ladies of the Hold - although remembering what F'lar thinks of some of the ladies he and the others are presented with when they are on Search in DF, that might not be quite accurate!).

I know that the Pernese have sweetsand for soap and shampoo, and I think I remember something about F'lar using a "sweetstick" or something to clean his teeth (and wondering if his breath smelt), so there must be an equivalent to toothpaste.

Are there any other toiletries mentioned in any of the novels that anyone can think of?

Also, would it be the responsibility of the Headwoman to make sure that any Hold, Hall or Weyr was stocked with whatever was needed? Would the Traders be likely to carry any surplus around with them just in case?

The closest Craft I can think of who may have any idea about them would be the Healer Hall. Do you think that there might be Journeymen collecting and collating old recipes for products?
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Old Dec 1 2007, 09:11 PM   #2
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

In DF "sweet oil" is mentioned. This was at the beginning when Fax was introducing F'lar to his ....women.

"Some of the covey had not all winter long made much use of water, judging from the amount of sweet oil gone rancid in their hair."
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Old Dec 2 2007, 06:12 AM   #3
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

Oh yes. I'd forgotten that sweet oil was mentioned (despite remembering the general gist lol). I wonder if it was something like a basic vegetable oil that was sweetened with herbs or flowers.
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Old Dec 2 2007, 08:02 AM   #4
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

Ah... one passage immediately comes to mind; one that seems to indicate that much of the toiletry stuff seems to be a "by product" of the Healer Hall

Quote from Dragonsinger:
Quote:
"Oil. They need to be oiled."
"Don't panic, child. The matter is easily taken care of," and with one long arm, he reached to the shelving above his head, and without seeming to look, brought down a large pot. "I make this for the ladies of the Hold, so if your creatures don't mind smelling like females fair ..."
When Moreta goes to Gather we read:
Quote:
They were moving through the Gatherers, past the stalls. Moreta sniffed deeply of the aromas of spicy stew and sweet fruit pies, the odor of well-tanned leathers, the acrid smell from the glass-blowers' booth, the mingled smells of perfumes and garment herbs, the sweat of human and animal. And above all, the pleasant excitement that permeated the atmosphere.
Which not only indicates perfumes for personal use but also herbs and stuff to be used to store with garments like we did/do; thinking of variations going from linen soaps to moth balls here

Definite use of stuff like bath salts and perfumes is to be found in the same book when Moreta visits Lady Oma of Ruatha's bed- and bathroom to change after she got an unwanted bucket's worth over her

Quote:
In Lady Oma's own apartments, however, a variety of gowns, skirts, and tunics had been hastily assembled, and from the bathroom drifted the moist scent of perfumed water and the giggles of the girls who were preparing it.
The use of perfume, scented soap and maybe even men's perfumes (sandlewood?) seem to be established too, as it proved by a quote from Dragon's Kin:
Quote:
She [Nuella] paused, taking a deep breath. She could smell a fire burning on the hearth and turned her head slightly toward its warmth. A pleasant scent, not perfume but a nice soap, came from where the girl's voice had originated. A sharper, woodsy smell came just faintly from her right, away from the fire.
"Sweet oil" is mentioned in both Dragonflight and Dragonquest but not in the other books. "Cleansing sand" and "sweet sand" in Dragonflight, The White Dragon and Moreta whioe soap is mentioned in about half the Pern books with references going more numerous in the latter half of the series.
This, by the way, confirms that Anne (and in his turn Todd) have deviated slightly from the more archaic and fantasy like use of language and names for certain objects in later books. This is something that is not limited to toiletries (the necessary is even called a toilet at times, this is acceptable for Red Star Rising/Dragonseye but, for consistency, not in The Masterharper of Pern).
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Old Dec 2 2007, 01:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

Of course! Thank you for those wonderful quotes, Hans!

I had a thought - Allied to MOR, was Nerilka's Story, and if I remember in there were descriptions of her going through the dry storage rooms where the Hold herbs and other similar stores were kept. I don't have Nerilka with me to double check if my thought was sensible LOL
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Old Dec 2 2007, 02:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

I think that there's mention of make up somewhere.

Oh and hair dye in SOP
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Old Dec 2 2007, 02:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

Oh really? LOL Hair dye? I know that there are natural hair dyes (henna being the most famous example, I guess), but I totally didn't pick up on that in SOP! Whereabouts is it, Edith, can you remember?
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Old Dec 2 2007, 02:48 PM   #8
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when Pilgra visits Lessa and F'lar- Lessa mentions that her hair showed no grey but was probably because she dyed it. I haven't got SOP with me.
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Old Dec 2 2007, 04:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

Gee I completely missed that one I don't remember reading where Lessa dyes her hair...good thing that I am re-reading them again.
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Old Dec 2 2007, 04:38 PM   #10
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

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Gee I completely missed that one I don't remember reading where Lessa dyes her hair...good thing that I am re-reading them again.
Lessa doesn't- it's Pilgra!
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Old Dec 2 2007, 05:32 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by edith View Post
when Pilgra visits Lessa and F'lar- Lessa mentions that her hair showed no grey but was probably because she dyed it. I haven't got SOP with me.
Wow, Edith, what a good memory you have!

Here's the quote (from The Skies of Pern), which also reveals that dying hair and or toiletry benefited from AIVAS revelations

Quote:
Pilgra's dark hair showed no glint of white but the density of the color suggested to Lessa that the woman made use of some of the personal products that had become available from Aivas's files.
And I have searched for make up and red lips and such but haven't found those in my Search.
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Old Dec 2 2007, 06:25 PM   #12
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Wow, Edith, what a good memory you have!
Only for little things

Not for things like McCaffrey Quests.
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Old Dec 3 2007, 12:52 PM   #13
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

Even without AIVAS there are hair dyes you can make from plants (besides henna), plus washes to enhance color. As for makeup, given how many human cultures have some sort of beauty enhancement, likely the Pernese do, too.
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Old Dec 3 2007, 02:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

I think we all understand that, Anareth. We, well I, was searching for clues and articles mentioned in the books
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Old Dec 5 2007, 12:48 AM   #15
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

I imagine they'd be kind of like the Egyptians or even Arabians with makeup; certain plants/rocks/etcetera could be ground to make eye shadow and lip gloss, though the women could just use a sweet oil of some kind to give their lips and extra shine.
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Old Dec 5 2007, 01:52 AM   #16
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

There was mention of a lady who travels around Pern who makes her perfumes to sell to the hold ladies, now where did I see it? ............. Possibly "The Dragonlovers guide to Pern" by Jody Lynn Nye. It's the only one that springs to mind that has bits and pieces about beauty products, that have come out of Anne McCaffrey's books.
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Old Dec 6 2007, 04:49 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by jube View Post
There was mention of a lady who travels around Pern who makes her perfumes to sell to the hold ladies, now where did I see it? ............. Possibly "The Dragonlovers guide to Pern" by Jody Lynn Nye. It's the only one that springs to mind that has bits and pieces about beauty products, that have come out of Anne McCaffrey's books.
I'm going over DLG at the moment, so if I come across any mention of her then I'll post it here!!
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Old Dec 6 2007, 10:24 AM   #18
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Ah, great, Gidge. I'll let it be for the time being then
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Old Dec 8 2007, 10:11 AM   #19
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Ah, great, Gidge. I'll let it be for the time being then
Well I'm blowed if I can find it! You may have to get involved, Hans
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Old Dec 9 2007, 02:03 AM   #20
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Hm...I think I know which passage you refer too, except I'm far too tired to look for it right now.
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Old Dec 9 2007, 09:34 AM   #21
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I found it! On page 140 of DLG (under the heading Trader):
Quote:
A very rare talent is known as a "nose," a person whose olfactory sense is so finely developed that he is able to determine the components to an aromatic solution, or to compile one. Such people are vital to the design and production of perfumes. A woman named Mariko wanders between Telgar and Ista throughout the Turn, gathering fragrant herbs and mosses. She started out in winecraft, but found she was more interested in scents than tastes and retired to pursue her own craft.[...] Mariko is not sure how she gets her results, and she's not ready to tell anyone her methods. Mariko blends the herbs into a base of rendered fat or pure alcohol [...].

Last edited by Aristokat; Dec 9 2007 at 09:58 AM. Reason: transcription typos
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Old Dec 9 2007, 09:45 AM   #22
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Well done, Aristo!

Hmm... where does this Mariko come from? I don't remember her from any of the two of Jody Lynn Nye's Crossroads books... Does anybody else have a clue?

Maybe it's a friend of Jody or Anne?
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Old Dec 9 2007, 09:57 AM   #23
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I don't remember Mariko, but there's five paragraphs about her!

For those that don't have DLG, it also says
Quote:
"She is allowed to stay in the Smithcraft any time she appears, because Fandarel likes her..."
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Old Dec 9 2007, 10:04 AM   #24
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Aristo, that's marvellous! I totally missed that!! LOL Thank you so much!
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Old Dec 9 2007, 10:27 AM   #25
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No problem!
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Old Dec 9 2007, 10:45 AM   #26
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

Not only those, but there are natural things that are made from what is left over from cooking - wood ash and water to make lye and rendered fat plus herbs (with both medicinal (health) and taste qualities) and oils for lye soap.
There is indication of oil so so pure petroleum jelly (brand name Vasoline) can be mixed with natural pigments for makeup. Certain berries with natural staining properties (such as their version of blueberries like what is used in bubbly pies) can be used. Not sure if there is insect-like creature like bees (since the bees failed to thrive) so the wax could be used - unless they make use of paraffin or other waxes.
When it came time to run the vats for numbweed, I would think soap could be made at the same time. Various flowers and herbs would be able to be picked along with needlethorn too. It was a big chore for the whole hold. I am sure certain some raw products and manufactured ingredients were payment to various guilds and holds or included in tithes. Not all professions had guilds and it is by bartering excess ingredients and created products they make extra marks. It could be just as easily an off-shoot of Healer Hall just as the the arbitrator, teacher, professional witness (for lack of a better term - their testimony is unimpeachable), justice of the peace, and painter come under the Harper Hall. Not all Harpers are musicians . . .

My knowledge backed by research:

Wax, Paraffin wax, and soap
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Old Dec 9 2007, 11:08 AM   #27
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Thank you for that, Cherlyn!

I would assume that the only waxes they had were non-insect produced, and how many times are candles mentioned? Do the Pernese use candles at all since they have glows???
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Old Dec 9 2007, 11:50 AM   #28
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Thank you for that, Cherlyn!

I would assume that the only waxes they had were non-insect produced, and how many times are candles mentioned? Do the Pernese use candles at all since they have glows???
Not much.
Most notable are the mentions of:
  • a "sweet candle" in Dragondrums (remember Piemur's soiled clothes and bedlinen?)
  • a candle made from berry wax by Aramina in The renegades of Pern (in the same book Farli brings Piemur candles he ligts with sulphur sticks!)
  • Master Zist talking about "herbal candles" to get rid of stench in Dragon's Kin
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Old Dec 11 2007, 08:41 AM   #29
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LOL Thank you Hans!!

So by those 3 references, candles seem to be more used for odour-related causes rather than for lighting alone. Would that be a fair assumption?

And they had matches of some description too. Cutting up trees for paper is bad, but making matchsticks is ok?
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Old Dec 11 2007, 10:46 AM   #30
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Yes, there's only one instance where hey are clearly used for light, so seeing how "voluminous" the Pern series now is that's not much

Wouldn't know about the matches. You do have to realise they apear (like the candle for light) in the AIVAS time frame. So that's a probable explanation for them "suddenly" appearing.
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Old Dec 11 2007, 12:15 PM   #31
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Wouldn't know about the matches. You do have to realise they apear (like the candle for light) in the AIVAS time frame. So that's a probable explanation for them "suddenly" appearing.
Oh I see! Sorry - for some reason I was thinking that we were talking about some incident when Piemur was travelling in the South or something (totally disregarding the part about Aramina and RoP).

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Old Dec 11 2007, 03:14 PM   #32
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Drat, you're completely right. It's from Renegades indeed, so too early for AIVAS. Ah wel.... hmm, aybe glows were not so much in abundance in the south and Ara and Readis have to do with candles?
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Old Dec 11 2007, 03:47 PM   #33
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It wouldn't be necessary to cut down trees to make matches. Sturdy twigs could probably serve as well.
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Old Dec 11 2007, 04:04 PM   #34
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I'm not convinced of that, but I don't know enough about the mechanics of match-making to give a credible argument! LOL I know I wouldn't be convinced just by somebody "feeling" that it's wrong!

I'm not convinced, either, that the Pernese had an over-amount of matches, either. How many references are there to matches as opposed to something more flint-and-steel that makes sparks to light fires? I remember references to "firing" which I took to be some kind of kindling and not part of the fire-making process itself.
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Old Dec 11 2007, 04:20 PM   #35
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Perhaps they're used for flame throwers and things. During the interval they might have become more important. The woods were kept during the 9th pass and thus paper arrived! I don't know why it wasn't devised during the interval- complacency- people didn't seem to enamoured with papers until they needed them at the start of the pass.
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Old Dec 13 2007, 03:17 PM   #36
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Matches aren't that hard to make - the book matches are a heavy cardboard (heavy paper - soaked pulp and dried - they rediscovered paper before AVIAS) then dipped in a coating with sulphur that required a sandpaper-like surface to strike on . . . a special holder can be made to keep them dry. Glows would be rather few in the jungle.
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Old Dec 13 2007, 05:54 PM   #37
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It wouldn't have to be cardboard - it could be twigs, even. Anything stiff enough to strike after having been dipped.
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Old Jan 7 2008, 11:15 AM   #38
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They had lip color and eyeshadow.

"Runner of Pern" on.:

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fluffing her hair so that it framed her face, helping her with lip colour and a touch of eye shadow.
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Old Feb 7 2013, 07:20 PM   #39
317muneca
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

In MHOP didnt a journeyman Robinton put some type of fire-starting device in the others pockets when they were to spend the night in the empty weyr?(My MHOP book is in storage, so im unsure of the exact wording.)
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Old Feb 7 2013, 09:13 PM   #40
Marichele
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Default Re: Pernese Beauty Products

In the WD, Menolly uses a cream to cover Jaxom's threadscars. She got the Healer to make some without scent for him.
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