Agenothree (HNO3, nitric acid)

[P'ter]

I've posted under minerals about boron which can be used to ignite explosives.

[Amaterasu]

Actually riders of queens could use simple water instead of flame or nitric acid, since threads die in water medium. Nevertheless, I think they have used water solution of nictric acid, otherwise it would be the same danger as threads: burn all organic stuff. I have worked with concentrated nitric acid and do not advise somebody to spray it as "fertilizer".

[Brenda]

Threads drown in water. Spraying them with water would only have limited success because unless they had a firehose, it would only be sprinkling the thread; might limit their growth, but I doubt it would even be that effective in the limited amounts the queenriders could carry.

Spraying with agenothree would be more actively destructive of threads in the air. And yes, in DF Fandarel states that agenothree in diluted form is used to fertilize.

Flame, obviously, is the most efficient means of destruction.

[edith]

Originally Posted by Amaterasu

Actually riders of queens could use simple water instead of flame or nitric acid, since threads die in water medium. Nevertheless, I think they have used water solution of nictric acid, otherwise it would be the same danger as threads: burn all organic stuff. I have worked with concentrated nitric acid and do not advise somebody to spray it as "fertilizer".

I know what its like! It does seem a little dim! But it's reassure the Lord Holder and would be useful on the ground! I haven't used Nitric Acid in that concentrated a form- but I did tip Molar solution Sulphuric acid down the sink!

[P'ter]

did you have any drain left?

[edith]

we did. We also had eyeballs left and hands! I have an excuse. I didn't do A Level chemistry. Actually it wasn't sulphuric acid- it was an alkali- sodium hydroxide! We were using it to etch tungsten wire! I only used safe chemicals this summer!
I knew my brain was going to mush...

[P'ter]

That stuff is DANGEROUS.

Did you know that you have to have permission from the water company to tip chemicals into their drains?

A school I was teaching swimming in had a caretaker who was thick enough to overdose the pool with hypochlorite (5 times max permitted level). We had to get the water co to agree that we could drain the pool down. (The school also had to pay them a large fee.)

[edith]

Afterwards! I think the uni's covered. I found all the safety information a couple of days later after Mum found out what we'd done!
Our lecturer couldn't see the problem!
Oh well!
Next year's students know!
I wrote a safety sheet!
Mind you, one of the chemicals I used this summer, a common food additive, had safety instructions saying that it was an irritant and should not get wet!

[Amaterasu]

Originally Posted by Brenda

Threads drown in water. Spraying them with water would only have limited success because unless they had a firehose, it would only be sprinkling the thread; might limit their growth, but I doubt it would even be that effective in the limited amounts the queenriders could carry.

Spraying with agenothree would be more actively destructive of threads in the air. And yes, in DF Fandarel states that agenothree in diluted form is used to fertilize.

Thanks, for the answer It makes clear a lot. The problem was a wrong Russian translation of Pern books. I read the books also in English. However, I remember Russian versions better. You cannot imagine how many terrible mistakes translators make! It is written there that water destroys Theads and it wasn't specified in which way Thus, we - Russian-speaking fans - had even a discussion about "how water could be harmful for the organic creatures like threads?"

However, nitric acid (even as a diluted solution) is not a fertilizer. It even can make soil sour (HNO3 is a strong acid) and may destroy organic stuff (the acid is a strong oxidant).
In reality, nitrates (salts of nitric acid) are widely used as inorganic fertilizers, for example KNO3 or NH4NO3. They contain two of the main nutrients: nitrogen (in a form of ammonia) or potassium. An excess of nitrate anions in vegetables can be even toxic.

[edith]

I think its a little bit of Anne-Science or even a non-horticulturist mixing stuff up (Fandarel) or just trying to reassure a moaning idiot!

[Brenda]

Yeah - the Mastersmith wouldn't be expected to know too much about fertilizer! Although this IS Fandarel we're talking about...

[Amaterasu]

Originally Posted by edith

I think its a little bit of Anne-Science or even a non-horticulturist mixing stuff up (Fandarel) or just trying to reassure a moaning idiot!

This explaination I like most of all!
I think, Fandarel (any Mastersmith) must know the difference between HNO3 and nitrates.

[edith]

He knows enough chemistry to build a battery!

And he's a Jack of All Trades rather than a pure physicist, chemist or engineer too!

[Amaterasu]

Originally Posted by edith

He knows enough chemistry to build a battery!

And he's a Jack of All Trades rather than a pure physicist, chemist or engineer too!

You catched exactly what I think about him!

[edith]

He happens to be one of my favourite characters. I really must do more work on this! I'll have to sort out my sprayer plans.

[Amaterasu]

[QUOTE=edith;87028]He happens to be one of my favourite characters. /QUOTE]

And he is one of my favourite heros as well.

[Balgarion13]

Just posting a quote i found online. donno if it will help at all though, as i've only taken highschool level chemistry.

"Nitric Acid is a colourless, highly corrosive, poisonous liquid (freezing point : -42° C, boiling point: 83° C) that will react with water or steam to produce heat and toxic, corrosive, and flammable vapors. It is toxic and can cause severe burns.

All nitrates decompose when heated and may do so explosively.

Nitrocellulose (or cellulose nitrate) is a highly flammable compound formed when cellulose materials are treated with concentrated nitric acid. The extent of the reaction between the cotton and acid can be varied to give a range of compounds, from the highly explosive gun-cotton to the flammable collodion cotton or pyroxilin. These are now used worldwide as propellants in cartridges and other ammunition."

[Cherlyn]

If I remember right, it was stated that DILUTED agenothree was a plant furtilizer so the ground crews used the liquid agenothree for thread burrows so there would be no fires in the crop lands and the forests. Most flame throwers had a pilot lit that ignited the fuel being sprayed. I hate to bring up the more advanced science card, but I would think that there had been figured out a way to have two separate liquids carried that upon spraying both, the one would ignite the other. It was much of a hop-skip-and-a-jump to develop the thermos - and it is glass lined. It was stated that the sprayer that was developed again by Fandarel (yep, I like him too; and he is my craftmaster after all! ), was bulky, and he literally took the sprayers off the backs of the ones who came forward. They had a better way of pressurizing the contents so it wouldn't be as bulky.

[edith]

The two liquid thing was something I was looking at- about the end of page 1.

I really need to redraw my sprayer plans some time.

[edith]

Yes, in Dragonflight, then he comes up with the sprayer.

[Lady Maelin]

I just read though all of your thoughts on Agenothree...and don't understand even half of it...but it does sound interesting. I would indeed love to see your ideas one the Sprayer though...perhaps I could use it in one of the Character Portriat in the future.

[edith]

Originally Posted by Lady Maelin

I just read though all of your thoughts on Agenothree...and don't understand even half of it...but it does sound interesting. I would indeed love to see your ideas one the Sprayer though...perhaps I could use it in one of the Character Portriat in the future.

I need to tidy up my notes and diagrams a little, then I'll post it.

[edith]

Oh and I found the safety data sheet for nitric acid if anyone wants to be scared
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/...il/SIAL/258121

lick on the link marked MSDS and enable pop-ups (just Sigma Aldrich being a pain again )

[ghost8772]

I was thinking about the agenothree flame throwers, as well as Pern being a low tech, and almost non existant petroleum sources. (where a number of the fuels for fire come from) one thought I had was the flame throwers COULD be a double tank device, with Agenothree in one tank and crushed firestone in the other. apply acid to the firestone, it leaches out the phosphine might even build pressure, once it is released from the nozzle it ignites. of course this IS just a thought on how they might have made it work.

[edith]

Might work!
The properties of Nitric Acid (concentrated) and Phosphine are quite scary (and I was supposed to be using hydrazine until this week (thank goodness that experiment got cancelled)). The thing I'd be concerned of there is the sheer danger of both chemicals. I've got to make time to draw plans, but I was thinking of double tanks.

oh yeah! Welcome ghost8772

[ghost8772]

thanks. it would also have to be drained/discharged after each use. system like that under continuous pressure is just ASKING for leaks.

[GinnyStar]

Originally Posted by Brenda

Yeah - the Mastersmith wouldn't be expected to know too much about fertilizer! Although this IS Fandarel we're talking about...

They say DF they use the agenothree to etch on metal in the crafthall.

DQ He use it for power.
It works till Thread cut it in mid message. Also before the green and rider can report in.

So is his granddaugher

[Kath]

Originally Posted by ginnystar

DQ He use it for power.
It works till Thread cut it in mid message. Also before the green and rider can report in.

I don't think he used HNO3 for the Pernese proto-telegraph at all... I'll check the details later.

[Hans]

He didn't. When F'lar inquires and tries to stick his finger in the mixtiure used, Fandarel strikes F'lar's hand away and says:

"That would burn your skin as quick as pure agenothree. (...) Based on that solution, too. Now, observe. These tubs contain blocks of metal, one each of zinc and copper, in a watered solution of sulfuric acid which makes the metal dissolve in such a way that a chemical reaction occurs. This gives us a form of activity I [Fandarel] have called chemical reaction energy.

So, easy to misread and make the mistake...

[Kath]

Cheers, Hans!

Hmmm... that 'watered down' line makes me wonder if the Pernese smiths have any teaching songs of their own, or perhaps just their own version of 'Here lies Gillian, still and placid...'

[Hans]

@ your answer

Ah, the advantage of having a PDA with all the ebooks in my pocket

[ghost8772]

still haven't managed to get into the PDA tech. the telegraph was electricity based. wet cell batteries. which in All the Weyrs of Pern Aivas mentions that is what Fandarel's constructs are. common tech here is lead and Sulfuric acid, though zinc and copper as a cathode and anode are likely as well.

[Danel]

The mysterious Second liquide of Agnothree Flame Throwers.

Nitric Acid is a colourless, highly corrosive, poisonous liquid (freezing point : -42° C, boiling point: 83° C) that will react with water or steam to produce heat and toxic, corrosive, and flammable vapors.

Basically pure HNO3 reacts with water and splits off it's own Hydrogen and Oxygen , and the waters Hydrogen & Oxygen , to produce NO2 + H + H + H + O2, NO + H2 + HO2, and N2O + H2O2, and a few other various chemical splits.

Additionaly HNO3 will ignite on it's own without conversion with any Celluose based material. In otherwards, thread itself could be the ignition trigger, explaingin the need of the spary before the flame. With water added to the throwing mix, enough hydrogen is produced as well to increase the overall flaming potential.

A simple platinum coated nozzle could catalyst with the hydrogen, and cause ignition at the source point instead of waiting for a reaction with the Thread to start the ignition.

However this would be an extreamly dangerous method of producion Hydrogen on the wing so to speak.

You can mix Hydrocloric Acid and any common sugar (Cane, white, crystalized honey or flower nectars, etc...) and produce much -more- hydrogen and with enough pressure to fill presurized tanks with. Which would be well within the technology of Pern, and be a heck of a lot safer method of hydrogen production. . . the waste material its fairly noxious though, but it's a lot less toxic then NHO3 itself.

Obviously an old thread but I just found it. As a professional chemist I thought I might add the following:
(1) Nitric acid is not flammable; it is highly corrosive in concentrated form (Personal experience I might add! It does char you)
(2) A number of substances form hypergolic mixtures with it - perhaps the most likely, if Pern has the technology to make HNO3 in the first place, is hydrazine which would produce a powerful flame jet when mixed. Another nitrogen containing cpd is aniline but it seems clear that Pern does not have petrochemicals so that's out.
(3) HOWEVER - how the hell do they make any of this in the first place? Quote (RSR) "HNO3 isn't all that hard to manufacture". Well actually it ain't that easy! Certainly it seems unthinkable that low-tech Pern could have the Haber-Bosch process so the source must be nitrate minerals. At least some of these must be reduced but without crude oil hydrogen is going to be difficult to make and the later AIVAS sections at least imply that hydrogen and oxygen were not know as pure gases.

No, the chemistry is a total mess - sorry but the whole thing, like much of at least the Dragonriders science, is just a bad guess. The good new is that (apart froma few twinges for people like me) it doesn't spoil the stories. I have always regarded them a fantasy not SF, so Ms McCaffrey has a perfect right to make up her own universe and her own rules.

Chris

[P'ter]

I thought that, while they don't appear to have vast reserves of petrochemicals, Anne DOES give them some tar/heavy crude ponds.

[Old Hippie]

Yes it was mentioned, P'ter, that there were open pools of crude. The one thing that always stumped me was that in DD it was said that all you needed was electricity to make HNO3. BUT it seems that electricity was lost somewhere along the way until Fandarel "reinvented" the acid battery. Love the stories anyhow, by the way.
That also reminds me that the agenothree and flame throwers where two different items. The Mastersmith liked the idea of a flame-thrower and the Oldtimers liked the Agenothree field sprayers as it wouldn't singe the Queen riders or ground crew.

[edith]

Unfortunately there's an Anneconsistency or whatever in DE/RSR where the mention Agenothree flame throwers.

Thanks Chris! Although I'm learning chemistry the hard way (I have scared colleagues with the fact that my formal education in chemistry ended when I was 16 although my current research contains quite a bit of the stuff) I am missing a lot of the common sense stuff (including avoid any recipe that contains hydrazine ) and I wouldn't have realised that it was particularly hard to make nitric acid.

[Ryuu]

Nitric acid was known in the 8th Century. The earliest known method for production was written down by Jabir ibn Hayyan. No industrial petro plants were in operation back then

In addition, for Pern, methods of identifying ingredients and manufacturing it would be a process that was known from the start of the colony & could be passed down over the generations, even if other technologies were lost.

[Kizz]

Regarding Thread and water, wasn't it possible for thread to drown in the air during a rain storm? I'm not sure how much rain (it's been so long since I've read books with this argument).

[Old Hippie]

In DD, Admiral Benden was informed by a stake holder that there was heavy rain at the time of a fall which "probably" saved them.