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Old Aug 19 2007, 12:05 AM   #1
Lady Maelin
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Default Holders Meals

What do you think a regular holder on Pern, would have served for a normal meal at...

A. Breakfast meal...would they have had eggs, cereals, breads, cheese, milk? Would they have had any meat, and what kind?

B. a noonish meal...would it have been quick and small, or large to keep you going. Would it have been bread and cheese, meat rolls, cold klah? Would they have fruit, or vegtables available?

C. an evening meal...would stew or soup be a basic, or would some kind of meat be served. Would desert, fruit, or some sort of sweet be served? Spirits...would wine or beer be available would they make their own?

I have been thinking on this for a while now...and would like to know what you think would have been on a working holders table at meal times???
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Old Aug 19 2007, 01:23 AM   #2
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Default Re: Holders Meals

I think it would have to vary with the size, nature and status of the Hold. A small coastal holder's table would probably feature things like fish and chips for lunch and gumbos and stews seem likely, along with spiderclaws and seasonal fruits and veggies for the evening meal. Those who had a ready supply of flour would probably use a lot of breads and breading as "filler" for most meals. I got the impression that most Pernese lean on cereal for breakfast, something like what we call oatmeal or porridge. I'd think they'd toast the previous day's left over bread and maybe top it with some fruit preserves. I seem to remember that chickens were not very common and eggs would probably be reserved for "High" tables and even there probably not a daily occurrence.

Small holders away from the coasts would probably use a lot of cheeses and dried or otherwise preserved meats and regional veggies and fruits. I think most would have a fairly substantial, "stick to your ribs" breakfast, a lightish lunch which can be prepared and eaten relatively quickly and wouldn't "weigh down" the working people, finishing up with an evening meal heavy on filling type foods to revive and relax people after a long hard day.

In the major Holds such as Fort or Ruatha they'd probably have fancier and more varied choices, keeping the "better" items for the Lord's family and chosen household members and offering a dining hall sort of thing for the lesser members and workers, serving quantities of soups, stews and other things that are relatively easy and inexpensive to prepare in large quantities. Since pies seemed to be such a treat at gathers.

I'm not sure what they'd do for desserts. Surely at least the larger Holds would have some sort of cakes, cookies or pies at least sometimes. As for drinks, some probably make a few "home brews" of their own and those who can afford them would buy from major producers (such as Benden wines).

Sorry to be so long winded!
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Old Aug 19 2007, 05:02 AM   #3
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Default Re: Holders Meals

concept; please feel free to suggest more/different

Breakfast: bread, meat, cheese, porridge (no cereals as we get them nowadays), fruit, fruit juice, tea, klah (watered wine in wine holds)

Nooning: bread, meat, cheese, meatrolls, stew, cold meats from previous dinner, soup, tea, ale (wine in wine holds)

Dinner: soup, tubers, vegetables, meat or stew, wine, ale

note: in Holds the meal at noon might be the largest/heaviest (swithced with dinner) as in agricultural varieties the heartiestr meal is usually the noning, not dinner. To satisfy working people in such a society they might also have an extra supper later at night.
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Old Aug 19 2007, 06:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: Holders Meals

Moth of the books mention oatmeal type cereals. That can be kept on the fire to supply a quick breakast to large number of people. With maybe some toast.
For lunch there would be meat rolls for people that are going to be gone at lunch. At the hold I think a lrg. meal that would keep a worker going. Meat, & tubers.
Dinner could be a stew or soup with bread.
desserts would be local fruits for special ocasions maybe a baked pastery. In winter icecream would be posssible. I don't think that they would of had desserts everyday.
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Old Aug 19 2007, 08:58 AM   #5
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Default Re: Holders Meals

Dragonsinger has a number of descriptions of meals in the Harper Hall.
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Old Aug 19 2007, 10:40 AM   #6
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Default Re: Holders Meals

Maw, toast, over an open.live fire? I don't think so. Just bread and flatbread I think
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Old Aug 19 2007, 12:58 PM   #7
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Default Re: Holders Meals

I've done toast on a campfire. You DO need an expanse of very red ashes and a long handled toasting fork.
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Old Aug 19 2007, 04:07 PM   #8
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Default Re: Holders Meals

And the show Good Eats once did a show featuring toast made over a fire. With melted cheese to go on top. Otherwise, I can't think of anytrhing to add that hasn't already been said.

Oh, I just did: Cots probably have smaller/simpler meals than the minor and major Holds, possibly skipping dessert as there's no reason they abolutely have to have it. So the pies, cakes, etc would be very special occasions.
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Old Aug 19 2007, 04:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: Holders Meals

The reason that I ask about the meals was to find out what we all think would have been available to the working class holder...the smaller farmer or beast holders???

Peter, I have read all of the Dragons of Pern books several times...so I know the general table faire.

Hans, Are you certain that in the smaller holds they would have had access to fruit or enough of it to make fruit juice?
Or that meat would be readily available for everyday meals?

Maw, I agree...I think that many different types of grains would have been fairly available all over the planet. Depending on where you were would decide what type of grains you were served.
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Old Aug 19 2007, 09:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Holders Meals

Tresa: that was Welsh Rabbit/Rarebit. (I know the episode you're talking about.) AB may have done the toast in the toaster, but it is possible to use a toasting iron on an open fire. We had one in the 18th-century row house we showed to visitors. You just have to pay attention and make sure you don't scorch one side!

I would guess most of the time breakfasts are pretty hearty deals, and then dinner/tea is a little later than we'd have lunch and again a good feed.
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Old Aug 19 2007, 10:21 PM   #11
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Default Re: Holders Meals

Oh that's right... I only saw like the last five-ten minutes.
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Old Aug 20 2007, 02:55 AM   #12
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Default Re: Holders Meals

Maelin, I guess you're right in that fruit juice might not be as readily available in the smaller corholds; however fruit will, but of the northern varieties, no "imports"

As for toast, I just don;t see that on Pern as they'll probably don't have the bread for it. The bread will be coarser, heavier and uncut of course and not even in the shape we're used to but round or irregular shaped.

What I do see (and which is sometimes used to toast bread) is waffles, the kind made in a single waffle iron (a cast iron one with long handles) that is held over an open fire. But I suppose that, like even today, those waffles will be a special treat rather than regular fare.
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Old Aug 20 2007, 11:31 AM   #13
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Default Re: Holders Meals

Quote:
note: in Holds the meal at noon might be the largest/heaviest (swithced with dinner) as in agricultural varieties the heartiestr meal is usually the noning, not dinner. To satisfy working people in such a society they might also have an extra supper later at night.
In Dragonsinger Menolly is surprised that at the Harper Hall, they have the big meal at noon and a lighter supper. At Half-Circle, everyone would have taken a lunch with them on the boats, and been out all day, so the big meal was held in the evening after they returned.

I think they probably do have sliced bread, but any place where there is a communal dining area, toast wouldn't be practical. In an individual family cot or an individual's room with a fireplace, it's not impossible.

Oh, just remembered - in TWD, just before Jaxom goes back to Cove Hold and collapses, he's brought a tray of food that includes toasted bread and cheese.
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Old Aug 20 2007, 12:35 PM   #14
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IAt Half-Circle, everyone would have taken a lunch with them on the boats, and been out all day, so the big meal was held in the evening after they returned.
Boats aren't ever going to all arrive home at about the same time each day, not when you have tides to worry about.
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Old Aug 20 2007, 03:06 PM   #15
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In Dolphin of Pern I think Readis had put bread on a fork & toast some bread that way. It was the day after Robinton died. He was making breakfast for his siblings.
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Old Aug 21 2007, 04:47 AM   #16
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Default Re: Holders Meals

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Boats aren't ever going to all arrive home at about the same time each day, not when you have tides to worry about.
True, but with Pern's two moons that appear smaller in the sky than Earth's moon appears here, tidal effects will be smaller. And a bit more complex to calculate, given that they would either strengthen or weaken depending on their relative positions to Pern. Lunar conjunctions might bring some pretty spectacular tides. Would the Red Star be close enough at its closest approach to affect tides?

The heartiest meal would also depend on the size of the hold. In larger ones at least those who went far away would probably pack a picnic lunch and eat a hearty meal back at the hold. It would take too long to travel back and forth and waste precious daylight hours they could better spend working the fields.

Crafthalls are different, they don't require working in the fields as such, and so would probably have a hearty meal in the middle of the day. Most people in hot climates eat their main meal after sundown, because it is simply too hot during the day to have much of an appetite.

During Passes, people's lives would also be pretty much regulated by thread. While I doubt that people who were used to thread falling and careful to be under cover during a fall would go completely to pieces during threadfall, I hardly think they'd schedule a feast during fall either.
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Old Aug 21 2007, 06:05 AM   #17
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Granath, were did you get the info about the position of the moons and that they have less influence on the Pernese waters?
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Old Aug 21 2007, 07:17 AM   #18
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isn't tidal effect governed by satelite/moon's mass times the square of the distance?
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Old Aug 21 2007, 06:28 PM   #19
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Of course the boats aren't all going to come in all at the same time - some will be late, some will return early with an unexpectedly good catch; but I would think they would all return before nightfall. I got the impression that it was usually dark by the time they ate at Half-Circle.
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Old Aug 22 2007, 01:50 AM   #20
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Granath, were did you get the info about the position of the moons and that they have less influence on the Pernese waters?
Simple inference. The Earth is extremely unusual in having such a large companion satellite, if Pern had a similar one, I think it would've been mentioned in P. E. R. N. c or somewhere. Unless the moons are in identical orbits (extremely unlikely) they're going to change positions relative to each other.

Kath?
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Old Aug 22 2007, 02:57 AM   #21
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ah... hmmm...

Not exactly in identical orbits, which should prove impossible. But I suppose w have to assume on pictoral evidence that, in terms of moons, they are "pretty close" and maybe two smaller ones can exert the same forces as one larger one?
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Old Aug 22 2007, 01:12 PM   #22
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ah... hmmm...

Not exactly in identical orbits, which should prove impossible. But I suppose w have to assume on pictoral evidence that, in terms of moons, they are "pretty close" and maybe two smaller ones can exert the same forces as one larger one?
Sometimes in hotter agricultural areas, you actually do have a big lunch, then a nap, and then go back out to the fields after it cools down some.

Then have a smaller supper just after dark, and then go to bed.

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Old Aug 22 2007, 01:21 PM   #23
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ah... hmmm...

Not exactly in identical orbits, which should prove impossible. But I suppose w have to assume on pictoral evidence that, in terms of moons, they are "pretty close" and maybe two smaller ones can exert the same forces as one larger one?
Diametrically opposite orbits would also do the trick, but given that the moons are at least sometimes in the sky at the same time, that isn't the case. As long as one moon isn't 90 degrees away from the other, their tidal effects will emphasize each other rather than cancel out. Of course there's also Rukbat to consider, and possibly the Red Star.
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Old Aug 22 2007, 07:41 PM   #24
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Default Re: Holders Meals

As for living in a hot climate, I would think that generally they will have a lighter/cooler meal in the mid day...with a rest through the hottest part of the day. When things are cooler in the evenings... that is when you will have a larger cooked meal. More than likely the cooking would be done out of door, or outside of the main living area...so it wouldn't add to the inside heat for sleeping.
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Old Aug 22 2007, 09:13 PM   #25
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Default Re: Holders Meals

What about bubblies? Piemur gets Menolly some at Menolly's first gather at the harper hall. They'd be like our apple pies (apricot, blueberries or whatever other fruit one puts into a fruit pie).
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Old Aug 22 2007, 10:13 PM   #26
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I suppose it comes down to personal preference, really, but as one who has lived in hot climates most of my life, I prefer a good solid breakfast, a light lunch and dinner and/or supper is usually a more substantial cooked meal. I know a lot of holds are built in caves and would be less affected by weather but I would think those in small holds who work hard for their living would be prone to digestive issues if they ate heavy noontime meals and went right back into heavy labor in hot conditions.
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Old Aug 23 2007, 12:12 AM   #27
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Toast wasn't invented with commercial white bread. (In fact white bread wasn't invented with commercial white bread.) As for loaf shape, has nothing to do with whether or not people toast it. I very much doubt there's only one kind of bread on Pern, in terms of loaf shape or grains used, too.

Do Igen and Ista have siestas? It would be a good idea...
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Old Aug 23 2007, 02:35 AM   #28
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Relatively square, sliced bread is a recent invention that is not seen in older, non-industrial societies.

If we nowadays use the word toast, it is always sliced bread. Of course you can toast bread over a fire always, any kind of fire or bread But then you have toasted bread, not toast as we define it nowadays, I think. Or is this difference too subtle.

As a former boy scout I also know that burmed bread is also been around since dough was invented...
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Old Aug 23 2007, 05:07 AM   #29
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As a former boy scout I also know that burmed bread is also been around since dough was invented...



If I rember correctly in Mexico they eat a big breakfast at dawn work until noonish eat lite lunch nap until 5 or 6 eat a snack got back to until dark than eat a big dinner. That way they advoid the mid day heat.Some of the hotter holds might do something along that line.

I think the meal sizes & what a person ate would chanch from climate to climate just like it does here.
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Old Aug 23 2007, 08:22 AM   #30
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When Sebel and Piemur go to the Igen gather, there's a siesta period early afternoon.
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Old Aug 23 2007, 02:49 PM   #31
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And in the Southern continent there seems to be a lot of down time in the afternoons.
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Old Aug 23 2007, 05:10 PM   #32
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I can also see those in hot climates eating a cold dinner if it's still hot in the evening. At least at the cots. Because I've done that before, and I know plenty of places get even hotter than Indiana!
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Old Aug 23 2007, 10:26 PM   #33
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"Subtle" isn't the word I would use. Unfortunately this site probably filters the adjective in front of the word I'd use.
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Old Aug 23 2007, 10:35 PM   #34
Shalyn
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Default Re: Holders Meals

Pern was colonized by people in our future. Therefore, since we have toast as we know it nowadays, in our future they would probably have toast.

Once Pern was colonized, many of the things that were taken for granted on Earth would need to be different - up to and including breadmaking and toasting.

Even if a loaf were round or irregular, that doesn't prevent someone from slicing it - unless it's a flatbread. Even then, it can be sliced.

I really wouldn't be surprised if Pern still had similar things as we do now, but just worked around in different ways:
  • Pizza
    Spaghetti
    Pot pies
    Corned beef
    Waffles
    Pancakes
    Popcorn (And if they have corn, they could have cornbread, which, while some is crumbly, when it's firm makes wonderful toast
    Macaroni and Cheese

just to list a few. We aren't talking primitive cavemen here, we're talking about a technological society which has reverted back to pseud-agrarian (sp?).

Heck, if they have anything like soy beans, cashews, or peanuts - they could even have something similar to PB&J
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Old Aug 23 2007, 11:14 PM   #35
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Default Re: Holders Meals

WOW Shalyn, you made my Pern day !!! I hadn't thought about nuts growing on Pern...but some variety of nut would probably been able to grow there. As about half of the other things they brought with them seemed to do just fine. So heres to an old fashioned earth sandwich... Nut and jelley on lovely fresh baked bread...
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Old Aug 24 2007, 08:24 AM   #36
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In the back of my kitchen cupboard I've got a hand mincer that was a wedding present to my grandmother in about 1908. It was made in Canada and includes a nut cutter in its self sharpening blades.
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Old Aug 24 2007, 11:05 AM   #37
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Shalyn, if your premise was true the descendants of the colonist would have everything the colonists had and we know that isn't true. I think it's too easy to say: on Earth they had macaroni and chees, therefor the colonists had it and so their descendants have it.

And that's apart from the fact that I think mac & cheese is a pure American invention.

Yes, we are not talking primitive cavemen here but with food it will have gone the way as with language, technology and other things, stuff and ides... they get lost, forgotten, in disuse etc.

Example: I think there were no bread slicing machines on Pern; it's actually a silly invention if you think of it and unnecessary in a pastroal agricultural society.
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Old Aug 24 2007, 03:08 PM   #38
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Default Re: Holders Meals

I think you have a point, Hans. Also, eating habits change rapidly. Who can say what people will be eating twenty years from now, much less as many years from now as the habitation of Pern? Here in the states fad foods include mac & cheese and burgers and chicken wings. In recent years things with mexican names and seasonings have become popular. And as for pizza, the popular forms of pizza now are only vaguely similar to what I remember from my childhood. There are fruits and vegetables making regular appearances on my table that my grandparents never even heard of or considered rare and strange delicacies.

The original settlers of Pern represented a lot of different cultures and they brought a broad assortment of foodstuffs with them. Some thrived and some did not. I belive that some native flora and fauna were also adapted into their diets. Centuries of various disasters and changes would have altered not only what they ate but also how it was prepared. Yes, they still make breads and I suspect they also have forms of pasta but they would probably not be all that similar to what we buy at the local grocery store.
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Old Aug 24 2007, 05:00 PM   #39
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Default Re: Holders Meals

What does a bread slicer have to do with this? They have knives. Knives cut slices off meat, so a knife can cut a slice off of a loaf bread. I make bread from scratch, and don't have a bread slicer. Never stopped me from making a sandwich, or toast, or croutons.

And no, when I say "Macaroni and Cheese", I'm not talking about Kraft Mac & Cheese. I'm not even talking about Velveeta Shells & Cheese. I'm talking about whatever it could have evolved into.

Pasta is something that has been around for for centuries - millenia, even, since it seems to have been around before the birth of Christ. Cheese - real cheese, not that processed stuff - if anything, has been around longer.

Now, maybe the Americans are the first ones who thought to mix it together, but since it is so easy, so filling, and has become a comfort food much like chili or soup, I can't see why the Pernese couldn't have it.

Maybe their noodles aren't the cute little macaroni noodles we have here. They probably don't have any of those cute little shapes like the wagon wheels, or shells, or letters of the alphabet. But I can't be the only person on this forum who has used whatever pasta product I've had on hand, and mixed it up with melted cheese, or spaghetti, or whatever.

The same with pizza - I doubt the Pernese would have your Buffalo Chicken pizza, or Taco pizza, or Hawaiian pizza. But all pizza really is, is bread dough made flat, with stuff on it. Another quick, easy, filling meal.

Yeah, anything I listed would go through changes just like language or technology. But if it's something that is quick, easy, filling, and tasty I can't see why they wouldn't have it. No one disputes that they have pies. Even little personal pies. So if they have mini fruit pies, then why couldn't they have pot-pies?
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Old Aug 24 2007, 05:16 PM   #40
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I have no problem with them eating pot pies. It's a great way to stretch ingredients and make good use of "lesser quality" meats. Instead of chicken or turkey they could throw in wherry or, in really poor households, tunnel snake.
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