(Potential Adult Topic) Dragons Sexual Selection

[Cheryl]

Originally Posted by Gidget2

Godwin's Law. Actually had to look that up. Reductio ad Homo.

Oddly enough, I looked up Godwin's Law just a few days ago for a discussion I've been following elsewhere on the net. That and Snacky's Law.

[Jayru]

Just looked up Snacky's Law



Love it!

I'm remembering that for future use


Although, there is a lot to be said for Snacky's Second Law

[Brenda]

I was really only skimming ED's overlong quoted replies, but I have one major objection to the following:

Lady M beat me to the post on picking up an a ref from Dragonsdawn about the original colonists. Which basically came down to, eveyone was expected to contribute to the next generation - regardless of there sexual orientation. So clearly, and obviously not all the colonists were straight and hetrosexual. In fact Telgar makes reference to that. Obvioulsy being gay wasn't an issue to signing up for being a Pern colonist. In fact I doubt that sexuality would have been an issue at all in being able to join the colony. Take a look at the short story "The Second Weyr;" no one blinks an eyelid at the fact there is an openly gay blue-rider.

Yeah about that passage...that's a bit disturbing. "Look Bob, I know the idea of sleeping with a woman totally revolts you, but you signed the contract, so get in there and take one for the Colony!" "I'm sorry, Mary, I know you're totally not into this man-woman thing, but it says right here you're going to contribute to the Colony's growth, so take it off! Chuck's waiting! And heck, it'll all be over in nine months...this time. You will, of course, be expected to squeeze out a few more to hit our growth target." C'mon! How many ways does the very idea violate a person's rights? Effectively, the only way it couldn't is if no strict homosexuals (only bisexuals) were permitted to join the Colony. Maybe we all ought to forget that one exists...rather like F'nor's idea of seduction, eh?

As I've pointed out in another response, that's a disturbing passage. There is simply know way it can do anything but violate the rights of strict homosexuals. Bisexuals would be okay with it, but strict homosexuals...?

Would we require heterosexuals to engage in homosexual affairs against their will? Why would we consider it right to force homosexuals to engage in heterosexual affairs? So either the Pern Colony recruited only heterosexuals and bisexuals, or it didn't much respect individuals' rights, particularly strict homosexuals.

During the immediate period after Landing - throughout Dragonsdawn, and probably further - they are using artificial insemination on all their livestock. Why in the world wouldn't they be able to use that to increase their own population, rather than putting people in the position E-D seems to think would be necessary?

I just remembered the name of the book I was trying to remember - Mirabile, by Janet Kagan - which involves a struggling planetary colony, in which even people not suited for parenting still have to contribute to the gene pool (by AI) and those who are, foster the extra children. Sounds pretty familiar, doesn't it?

[edith]

Thing is, and this is something I don't get is why they didn't widen the genepool with donor eggs and sperm from outside that of the colony by bringing a wide range with them?
Then those that wanted multiple children (and there appeared to be quite a few of them) could be encouraged (extra land grants etc) to act as surrogates.

[Gidget2]

Could/Should this be snipped into a new Thread? It's quite an interesting topic on its own!

[Brenda]

Thing is, and this is something I don't get is why they didn't widen the genepool with donor eggs and sperm from outside that of the colony by bringing a wide range with them?

That could very well have been due to their extremely limited and stretched funds - maybe that would have broken the bank.

[Hans]

Originally Posted by Brenda

That could very well have been due to their extremely limited and stretched funds - maybe that would have broken the bank.

Thing is, which bank?

Gidget, I fid it hard to split this thread. It's the genepool you want to discuss further yes? So I'll try to copy Brend's post and the following to a new thread but leave them here too woth the added request to return to topic (although it hasn't really gone off...)

[Gidget2]

LOL It's cool, Hans. I was just making a suggestion for ease of use!

[Hans]

Good suggestions, Gidget, I love this resurrecton of Pern discussion; feel like the old good times (anybody remember member LFL?)

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by Jayru

Whilst, believe it or not ED, I actually get the point you are trying to make - you are still missing some big points;

1/ Pern is fiction - over analysis of it, and its society is pointless, becasue it aint gonna change anything.

Then scrap the whole site, we're all just wasting time.

2/ Sexuality - especially in human beings, is something that is still being studied and understood. You find hard to believe that society on Pern (as written) could work as it does, but I think you are projecting the world as it is today onto Pern - which after all is set in our future. Can you not accept that society has changed, and is still changing in this area?

I don't have any problem with the society of Pern as written. I think some people are coloring rather far outside the lines of what was actually written.

3/ Without the moral constraints of religion, how and why would Pern have any social issues over sexuality? Looking at real human history, until Christianity came along, sexuality was not a major issue anywhere in the world. Look at the Cherokee - until religion came along, single sex couples were treated the same as any other couple - sexuality wasn't even an issue. So low tech societies can exist without any sort of predjudice where sexuality is concerned.

Where did I ever say low tech societies could not exist and be sexually tolerant? Who said all prejudice was rooted in religion? Before religions came along, the Cherokee fought, killed and even enslaved members of other tribes. Why?

4/ Sexuality isn't as ridged. Yes you and I are the freaks - becasue we state we're 100% what we are. I never said my friend was the same, only that she defines herself as straight. I'll qualify that further and say she defines herself as staight at this moment in time.

Imprecision of language. No big deal.

5/ Being disgusted about homosexuality/bisexuality isn't built into to human beings. Predjudice comes from the people who raise us.


How do we know? Experiments with populations of other mammals have recorded violence against homosexual members of the population--especially when resources are scarce--by heterosexual members. It don't think rats teach their off-spring much of anything in the way of higher thought. It's the people who raise us that teach us to overcome our animal natures.

6/ Go read all 18 Pern novels, the one novella, and the 11 short stories. How many hetrosexual male green/blue riders are actually mentioned? We don't know that Mirrims father is hetrosexual. We don't know he's bisexual. The text infers that he's had a few children by several different weman. But that's all it does.

Correct: that's all it does. We don't hardly have anything like a statistically significant sampling of the sexualities of the characters in Pern. What we do have people doing is making sweeping assumptions from passing remarks and fleeting observations of a smattering of characters. Rather than make a sweeping assumption one way or the other, I'm inclined to say that Pern's closer to the norm rather than farther, with enough changes to make it interesting. That is logically a safer assumption than any radical change one way or the other.

7/We've gone from caring about what dear old Kinsey had to say on the subject, to not being willing to believe those figures can be right.

As I said, I didn't take my number from Kinsey. Nor are any of the problems with any study that could be quoted resolved. This issue has to be effectively tabled.

8/ You say the figures don't fit, and that I am skewing thing to favour my POV. Am I? I had hoped that you would get the point I was making. Which was - that based on conservitive research, there are enough suitable men on Pern to fill the needs the Weyrs/dragons have. I never said they were all in the weyrs. And I agree, they wouldn't all want to leave there holds/craft halls. But then we do have clear evidence of that in the books, because we have gay/bi characters who are not dragonriders.

The existence of homosexual/bisexual characters doesn't mean they all are.

9/ When we say that the Holds and Craft Halls are less open minded then Weyrs - regarding sex. What is meant by that? That only hetrosexuality is tolerated and accepted? Could it be - that it's not sexuality that is the defining part in this, but sexual freedom that is the issue. Dragonriders, espcially green dragonriders have to accept that there dragons are going to rise to mate, and they are going to end up have sex with someone. Who? Well, that's a good question. The same person each time? Another good question. Could it be that the Holds and Crafts prefer couples to be manogamus? And that it is the so called hedonistic aspect of weyrlife (as they see it) that they struggle with?

Ask the author. The books are the source of the observation that Hold and Craft have "hang-ups" about this.

10/ What is "Tradition?" When we say the Holds and Crafts are more traditional, what do we mean by that? Tradition as in todays traditions regarding sex and families? 1960/70's Traditions (when the early books were written) - or future traditions that the Pern colonists will take with them (100 years from now, 1,000 years fom now?). Traditions change, and without qualification within the text of the book we actually don't know what is meant by it.

Yes, traditions change. That's part of the reason I don't go in for sweeping assumptions. I look at how such things have developed in society and figure Pern's not going to stray too far from the norm.


11/ Being gay doesn't mean you don't want kids, and that you can't have them. Here, now, on Earth there are many ways of doing that, from adoption, to turkey basters, to the good old fashioned way. On Pern I would suspect the old fashioned way prevales in the creation of children. Unless they are still making turkey basters in the Ninth Pass...

What is this referring to?

No you are not being objective. And, therefore this is not a discussion. A discussion is a free exchange of ideas. Which infers that people take on and think about those ideas.

And you are?

You (ED) have made some very good points, and people like myself have sat back and thought about them and replied. Your basic original point is worthy of discussion - but you have an agenda with it, and it allows for no flexability.

I see. So you are the final arbiter of all? And I don't think about anything (apparently on the "evidence" that I don't agree with you)?

Note to self: Find memo defining my "agenda." Everyone else seems to have it, but for the life of me I can't remember seeing the thing...

Interollerance doesn't spring into existance from no where. It has a source. The same as predjudice does. Where sexuality is concerned the biggest (and main) source of that is religion. Ironically, and as prooven hostorically, society tends to be more stable when religion isn't involved.

They have many sources. Blaming religion for all of it is a crock.

I don't look at Pern and think "cool, a homosexual heaven." I look at it and think, "cool, sexuality isnt an issue." In fact I have never thought of Pern as a homosexual heaven, (although now I come to think about it, all those men in leather... )

Yes, and the author has left the sexuality of the vast majority of characters alone. So there is not sufficient evidence for sweeping assumptions about sexuality on Pern.

Yes I am openly gay - as many people on here are, and you may feel that I am taking the "pro-gay" stance. Unfortunatly you don't know me well enough to assume that, or actually even know that. You cannot ignor all the research ever done on the subject, simply becasue it doesn't fit your world view. That sort of George W Bush approach is, to be blunt, not helpful.

I think we need a corollary to Godwin's Law: "Eventually in any internet discussion involving relatively more liberal and conservative views, the likelihood of the relatively more conservative poster being compared to George Bush approaches Unity."

And if you read what I've posted and actually compare it to the views of George Bush, the outright absurdity that they are similar is laughable. So much so that I'm actually amused enough not to be offended.

As I said above, you obviously have your own agenda and some major point you wish to make on this issue, and one that is inflexable and you cannot be moved from, or amend. Without room for discussion, and exploration of the point - well, what's the point? This means that further discusion is pointless, and (to use an anlogy) I may as well try and tickle a boulder with a feather.

Note to self: I have really got to find that agenda memo! Everybody seems to have it except me!

Nako's original post and comments were fun to think about - and as I said above, so was your (ED's) original point. It's not often I do the geeky thing of working out a planets population, or reading up on Kinsey (not as much fun as it sounds). But at least I can say I learned some new things from it. So not a complete waist of time. If my little bit of research had supported your original point, then I would have said so, and backed you to the hilt on it. As Gidget has said, it would just be another thing about Pern that's an elephant in the room. I'm not trying to prove you wrong becasue I am pushing some gay-agenda, but becasue the facts do not support your idea.

Okay, when I make an observation, have an opinion and don't yield to your point of view I have an agenda. When you make an observation, have an opinion and don't yield to my point of view, you don't have an agenda...

Is that your final answer?

I think all useful discussion is over.

Oh yes, the reason we (as in my partner and I) live in Ilkeston, and not Brighton, has nothing to do with money, and everything to do with just how beautiful Derbyshire is. But that's neither here nore there.

That's nice. It has nothing to do with the original point, however.

--

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[Shalyn]

Originally Posted by Hans

Good suggestions, Gidget, I love this resurrecton of Pern discussion; feel like the old good times (anybody remember member LFL?)

Oh, I miss LFL! I really liked her (and yes, she did tell someone she was female!)

Unfortunately, the only topics she ever posted on was the F'lar/Lessa/Kylara/Brekke/F'nor dynamics.

[Hans]

Electric Dragon reminds me of her, Shalyn!

[Blue Rider 16]

Before everybody jumps ship, this is just my two cents.

It seems to me that Candidate sexual preference does not matter as much as we all think. Brown riders definitely have a history of both homosexual and hexterosexual riders but it does seem that AM backs up in most of her works the dragon decides, the rider complies. However this does not mean a rider's conscious thought can't change things. Dragonquest is a good example of both. When F'nor goes to visit the Smithcrafthall at Telgar, he see the Fort Weyr brown-green pair. Their riders have both made the decision to be weyrmates, thus acknowledging their 'leanings'. However, F'nor when he sees them worries about Canth being upset and mentions that Canth has no shortage of partners. Seeing as all greens at this point are ridden by males, F'nor must have engaged in homosexual sex, but we all know that he is hextereosexual. There are also mentions of several green and blue riders having affairs with women. Therefore, it would seem that sexual preference does not matter much on moment of Impression. Indeed, there seems to almost be a checklist from what is in the books:

1. Telempathic ability
2. Complementary personality(notice use of the word complementary)
3. Will (combination of stubborness and determination. All riders have it. Some in unhealty amounts. i.e. T'ron and T'kul way too stubborn)
4. Nature
5. Gender match
6. Rest of criteria, including sexual preference.

As you can see, sexual preference is low on the list. Indeed it seems that all riders can have whatever preferences they want, but they gotta make their dragon happy, and that means mating flights with whoever their dragon wants.

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by Blue Rider 16

Before everybody jumps ship, this is just my two cents.

It seems to me that Candidate sexual preference does not matter as much as we all think. Brown riders definitely have a history of both homosexual and hexterosexual riders but it does seem that AM backs up in most of her works the dragon decides, the rider complies. However this does not mean a rider's conscious thought can't change things. Dragonquest is a good example of both. When F'nor goes to visit the Smithcrafthall at Telgar, he see the Fort Weyr brown-green pair. Their riders have both made the decision to be weyrmates, thus acknowledging their 'leanings'. However, F'nor when he sees them worries about Canth being upset and mentions that Canth has no shortage of partners. Seeing as all greens at this point are ridden by males, F'nor must have engaged in homosexual sex, but we all know that he is hextereosexual. There are also mentions of several green and blue riders having affairs with women. Therefore, it would seem that sexual preference does not matter much on moment of Impression. Indeed, there seems to almost be a checklist from what is in the books:

1. Telempathic ability
2. Complementary personality(notice use of the word complementary)
3. Will (combination of stubborness and determination. All riders have it. Some in unhealty amounts. i.e. T'ron and T'kul way too stubborn)
4. Nature
5. Gender match
6. Rest of criteria, including sexual preference.

As you can see, sexual preference is low on the list. Indeed it seems that all riders can have whatever preferences they want, but they gotta make their dragon happy, and that means mating flights with whoever their dragon wants.

You probably need to move gender match up to number 2. Kitti Ping did program that into the dragons, and there is a statement in CoP: FF that notes that female-green pairings are more stable than male-green pairings. However, the persons noting that make the decision to act against the ingrained programming because they don't want excessive numbers of greens grounded because their riders are pregnant. IIRC that was part of a conversation between Torene and M'hall.

[ghost8772]

I think gender matching would probably be more of a thrown out as well as sexual preference. by the feeling there would be a mindset more than preference. A feminine mindset would be closer to a gold and green dragon, though why there weren't homosexual male gold riders is Anne's prerogative. This being said a masculine mindset would be acceptable to Brown, Bronze, and Blue dragons, again this could open the way for bi/homosexual women in those postions, but didn't. "The dragon decides, the rider complies" is a byword of 9th pass Pern, not so much during first or even second pass. As Anne did say in her Tower series, the act is similar whether male or female partner for the "masculine" partner.

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by ghost8772

I think gender matching would probably be more of a thrown out as well as sexual preference. by the feeling there would be a mindset more than preference. A feminine mindset would be closer to a gold and green dragon, though why there weren't homosexual male gold riders is Anne's prerogative. This being said a masculine mindset would be acceptable to Brown, Bronze, and Blue dragons, again this could open the way for bi/homosexual women in those postions, but didn't. "The dragon decides, the rider complies" is a byword of 9th pass Pern, not so much during first or even second pass. As Anne did say in her Tower series, the act is similar whether male or female partner for the "masculine" partner.

I'm just going off what is written in the books. Sex is a discriminating characteristic for dragons with the same sex preferred, apparently trumping personality. If the same sex criterion can't be fulfilled, then the next criterion appears to be one of personality/sexuality, strong emotion, proximity, or desire to Impress, or some combination thereof. Number one is always the basic capacity for telempathy.

As an author, I would nail things down more exactingly, but I have the advantage of having read elaborate fictional worlds my entire life. McCaffrey and others cut their teeth on the concept, preceded notably only by Tolkien.

[ghost8772]

well, there WAS Burroughs on Mars before Tolkien did middle Earth. Authors have been writing Sci-Fi for centuries. Yes an author could nail down all aspects of their new world, and readers would read one book, and never buy another installment. People actually prefer picturing the worlds and filling them out with their own imaginations, freedom and free will. Of course there was the previous comment about different viewpoints on song lyrics a few pages back that nails down the reason for deliberate fuzziness. My personal feelings are that the mindset of riders through their dragons decide who could be acceptable for a dragon hatchling, and during Dragonflight weyrleadership. Until the weyrs opened up their thinking no women were green dragonriders. Women weren't even considered by green dragons despite them being on the grounds encircling the gold egg (when it showed). Overall the only dragon lore that hasn't been challenged by the author herself is that the Dragons were in a symbiotic telepathic relationship with dragons. The lore about Golds not chewing firestone because it would render them sterile was debunked in Dragonsdawn because ALL the golds produced initially attempted to chew firestone and none of them were sterilized.

I'm sticking with my previous conjecture that without external influence by mature dragons through their riders inhibiting choices, there COULD be masculine female homosexual riders on Male dragons, like there were homosexual male riders for green dragons. and possibly even homosexual male riders on Golds.

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by ghost8772

well, there WAS Burroughs on Mars before Tolkien did middle Earth. Authors have been writing Sci-Fi for centuries. Yes an author could nail down all aspects of their new world, and readers would read one book, and never buy another installment. People actually prefer picturing the worlds and filling them out with their own imaginations, freedom and free will. Of course there was the previous comment about different viewpoints on song lyrics a few pages back that nails down the reason for deliberate fuzziness. My personal feelings are that the mindset of riders through their dragons decide who could be acceptable for a dragon hatchling, and during Dragonflight weyrleadership. Until the weyrs opened up their thinking no women were green dragonriders. Women weren't even considered by green dragons despite them being on the grounds encircling the gold egg (when it showed). Overall the only dragon lore that hasn't been challenged by the author herself is that the Dragons were in a symbiotic telepathic relationship with dragons. The lore about Golds not chewing firestone because it would render them sterile was debunked in Dragonsdawn because ALL the golds produced initially attempted to chew firestone and none of them were sterilized.

I'm sticking with my previous conjecture that without external influence by mature dragons through their riders inhibiting choices, there COULD be masculine female homosexual riders on Male dragons, like there were homosexual male riders for green dragons. and possibly even homosexual male riders on Golds.

Women not being considered for greens was at variance with the designer's original intentions, and it came about for some valid reasons:
1) Weyrleaders' desires not to have their greens down for pregnant riders;
2) Holds' needs for child-bearers.

DD may have debunked the firestone sterilization belief, but it did establish that queens, nonetheless, could not flame. DD and CoP: FF also established that sex was a selection criteria. So I don't think you can validly throw it out.

That does not mean, however, that one of the influences on selection could not be what the hatchling is picking up from "the crowd" in the form of other dragons and their riders. There are statements to support this (in MHoP, IIRC). However, dragons "do their own thing" often enough that it's certainly not a trump.

People of different sexualities might possibly wind up on various non-standard dragons, but it seems unlikely. The high prevalence of homosexuals in the green ranks are the result of a human decision in contravention of the designer's intention and the preferences she programmed into the design of the dragons. For all we know, if adequate numbers of heterosexuals of both sexes were present, along with homosexuals, the dragons might not Impress any of the homosexuals.

Now the dragons don't seem to be that inflexible. There are a lot of vectors that can be identified or reasonably presumed, and none seem to be a trump, except telempathic ability. After that, only sex is identified as a specific design criterion. As such, it has been demonstrated not to be an absolute, but other than the greens, it holds.

We simply don't see any homosexual female riders, and it probably stems from the bronzes, browns and blues being routinely presented with sufficient numbers of male candidates they have no need to Impress homosexual women. This certainly implies that if all other factors are equal after telempathy, sex will trump the other selection criteria. So just as a male dragon might Impress a homosexual male rider, there is nothing to prevent a female dragon Impressing a homosexual female rider and such Impressions would probably happen before a homosexual rider of the opposite sex would be chosen.

Like the male dragons, the gold dragons never lack for an adequate number of female candidates, so they do not need to Impress a male homosexual. In fact, as a matter of proportion, golds have more candidates per capita than the male dragons. At many of the hatchings, there are anywhere from a handful to a double handful of girls standing for a single queen eggs, while there are 40-50 boys standing for 30 other eggs.

I think the only logical way such Impressions would occur would be for scarcity of candidates. They occur with greens for the same reason. So anything could happen, but the circumstances to precipitate such a thing would have to be quite extraordinary. Obviously the author and anyone fantasizing bout her work are free to do as and imagine whatever they like.

[GHarris]

Originally Posted by ElectricDragon

Like the male dragons, the gold dragons never lack for an adequate number of female candidates, so they do not need to Impress a male homosexual. In fact, as a matter of proportion, golds have more candidates per capita than the male dragons. At many of the hatchings, there are anywhere from a handful to a double handful of girls standing for a single queen eggs, while there are 40-50 boys standing for 30 other eggs.

I think the only logical way such Impressions would occur would be for scarcity of candidates. They occur with greens for the same reason. So anything could happen, but the circumstances to precipitate such a thing would have to be quite extraordinary. Obviously the author and anyone fantasizing bout her work are free to do as and imagine whatever they like.

The only thing that this theory does not account for is why no green dragons ever just walk over to a gold candidate, if sex is more important than personality. If gender were that important, it seems like there would be stories of a gold candidate getting picked by a green, or more stories like Mirrim.

GH

[Allana]

Originally Posted by GHarris

The only thing that this theory does not account for is why no green dragons ever just walk over to a gold candidate, if sex is more important than personality. If gender were that important, it seems like there would be stories of a gold candidate getting picked by a green, or more stories like Mirrim.

GH

Well, the gold candidates are so intensely focused on the queen egg, it doesn't seem that far fetched to me that because of this a green wouldn't even think of choosing one of them. Their minds would be closed to any other dragon at the time.

[GHarris]

Originally Posted by Allana

Well, the gold candidates are so intensely focused on the queen egg, it doesn't seem that far fetched to me that because of this a green wouldn't even think of choosing one of them. Their minds would be closed to any other dragon at the time.

Not if Gender is consideration #2.

If gender is down the list, then, yes, that would make sense, but if gender is #2, then there should be some stories of a green choosing a gold candidate (especially if the gold has already chosen her rider).

GH

[ghost8772]

Or not been hatched yet. Path "bucked the system" by picking Mirrim, even though society could now accept a female green rider. kinda ups the weight of "peer pressure" influencing who the green thinks is acceptable.

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by GHarris

The only thing that this theory does not account for is why no green dragons ever just walk over to a gold candidate, if sex is more important than personality. If gender were that important, it seems like there would be stories of a gold candidate getting picked by a green, or more stories like Mirrim.

GH

Maybe they have and we haven't seen it? We've only been treated to a small number of the hatching that have taken place on Pern, and a look at only about a third to maybe half of the Passes.

Also, one of the factors I've cited is proximity, and also "broadcasting" or "transmitting" emotionally. As far as proximity is concerned, the queen eggs is usually set apart from the others. As far as "broadcasting/transmitting" is concerned, the girls around the queen egg have their minds on the queen, not a green.

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by GHarris

Not if Gender is consideration #2.

If gender is down the list, then, yes, that would make sense, but if gender is #2, then there should be some stories of a green choosing a gold candidate (especially if the gold has already chosen her rider).

GH

I happen to agree that yes, there should be stories of this sort. We just haven't seen them. We know virtually nothing of Passes 4, 5, and 7, and very, very little of 8. Coverage of 1, 2, 3 and 6 is limited. Only Pass 9 is covered in any great detail and it's at the long end of a lot of social modifications and twists.

Now I think the real explanation is that this is a gap in the author's coverage of the topic, so we thus have this situation open to question.

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by ghost8772

Or not been hatched yet. Path "bucked the system" by picking Mirrim, even though society could now accept a female green rider. kinda ups the weight of "peer pressure" influencing who the green thinks is acceptable.

How do you figure "peer pressure" played into Mirrim's Impression of Path? I don't believe there was any fraction of the audience sitting there thinking "Mirrim should Impress a green." Heck, it appears Mirrim wasn't even thinking about it. (Which actually makes this one of the less explicable Impressions given what we understand about them, but hey, there's always an exception to prove a rule.)

[jube]

Yes and look at Ruth and Jaxom, one was considered to be a dragon runt and the other, most people thought would never amount to anything, even as a Lord Holder if you're looking at the weirdest choices made by either side. So draconic choices can be easily influenced by a rider as much as the rider's affected by the dragon. A case of take your point and run with it.

Also it's worth remembering that when Pern and its dragons were first being written, it was during a time when ladies didn't get much mention in written sci-fi/fantasy, they were simply there to hang off a male's arm and look good, especially if you comparing Burroughs's books of the time to nowadays, where there's a lot of strong female characters where the shoe is on the other foot and it's the man on the female's arm, hopefully making her look good. (I'll probably get stood upon for making these comments but it's just from reading those books and comparing them to what's written now and there's a lot of differences made).

Also as Electric Dragon was saying about the first 3 passes, 6th pass, very little of #8 and mainly 9th pass is where we're getting the most information. If there was a more complete history from the days of Landing to say even up to a so called 10th pass, then we'd be able to comprehend and answer the questions rising in this thread but as there's a huge gap ...........hhhhmmmm........... it produces just more questions and possibilities of a rider's/dragon's choices regarding sexuality.

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by jube

Yes and look at Ruth and Jaxom, one was considered to be a dragon runt and the other, most people thought would never amount to anything, even as a Lord Holder if you're looking at the weirdest choices made by either side. So draconic choices can be easily influenced by a rider as much as the rider's affected by the dragon. A case of take your point and run with it.

Also it's worth remembering that when Pern and its dragons were first being written, it was during a time when ladies didn't get much mention in written sci-fi/fantasy, they were simply there to hang off a male's arm and look good, especially if you comparing Burroughs's books of the time to nowadays, where there's a lot of strong female characters where the shoe is on the other foot and it's the man on the female's arm, hopefully making her look good. (I'll probably get stood upon for making these comments but it's just from reading those books and comparing them to what's written now and there's a lot of differences made).

Also as Electric Dragon was saying about the first 3 passes, 6th pass, very little of #8 and mainly 9th pass is where we're getting the most information. If there was a more complete history from the days of Landing to say even up to a so called 10th pass, then we'd be able to comprehend and answer the questions rising in this thread but as there's a huge gap ...........hhhhmmmm........... it produces just more questions and possibilities of a rider's/dragon's choices regarding sexuality.

Hey, Honor Harrington rocks and I love it! Mind you, you run a pretty strong risk of getting fragged under her command but you'll damn well get fragged going forward, not retreating!

As the politically incorrect and carcinogenic ad says "You've come a long way, baby." Writers are certainly free to break characters out into previously unexplored areas and it produces some great stories. Pioneering characters like Lessa have paved the way for the Morgaine Angharins, Honor Harrington's, and Paksenarions of the present to enjoy alongside the John Clarks, Dirk Pitts, and Skua Septembers.

[ghost8772]

peer pressure of "greens must bond with homosexual boys" relaxing where a green dragon, maybe somewhat audacious, could push a bit and find a female rider during the current pass. That impression DID occur several years after Brekke voiced her thoughts on girls impressing fighting dragons to F'nor, who repeated it to F'lar. that kind of thinking is insidious. but if it was getting acceptable by riders, then it was only a matter of time before the idea became reality.

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by ghost8772

peer pressure of "greens must bond with homosexual boys" relaxing where a green dragon, maybe somewhat audacious, could push a bit and find a female rider during the current pass. That impression DID occur several years after Brekke voiced her thoughts on girls impressing fighting dragons to F'nor, who repeated it to F'lar. that kind of thinking is insidious. but if it was getting acceptable by riders, then it was only a matter of time before the idea became reality.

Okay, that does makes sense. Not sure if the idea was really bandied about that much for me to go with it, but it makes sense.

[Allana]

Originally Posted by GHarris

Not if Gender is consideration #2.

If gender is down the list, then, yes, that would make sense, but if gender is #2, then there should be some stories of a green choosing a gold candidate (especially if the gold has already chosen her rider).

GH

I think that could still work with gender as consideration #2. After all, if telempathic ability is #1, that makes complete sense. The candidates' focus ("telempathic preoccupation" possibly) at the time would affect their telempathic ability, at least at that time.

[Myt]

Perhaps. I know that Hold-bred people seem to be more inflexible than others, but are there any Crafthall views on sexuality?

[jube]

I think I rather take on Sassinak then Honor Harrington (which I've never heard of before, ElectricDragon) if that's the case! Stood upon, my foot, huh!

As for hold sexuality, look at Menolly's parents, talk about stiff morality in every sense of the word. Probably wouldn't know what hit 'em unless it poke 'em in the eyeballs. Then go the complete opposite and look at Lord Fax, find a nice lookin girl, bed her, just to get the hold and then onto the next one.

Not 100% sure on craft-bred though although I do remember a couple of characters mentioning something about it but can't think who.........

[Cheryl]

Brekke was craftbred. She's the one that commented on craftbred sexuality being not open as compared to the Weyr.

[Kennet]

Sexual preference is a triad (think an isosceles triangle) with the apexes being Hetero, Homo, and Asexual. For each person we have relations with, we are at a different place inside that triad. If the edges of the triangle represents the emotional involvement in the relationship, then the exact centre of the triangle is where sex is simply a physical activity (a pleasing one) with no emotional attachment, and the genders(s) of the partner(s) is not important.

A male Green rider can be heterosexual, but, if there are no "other arrangements" and his Green rises, can accept the submissive role in the sex without there having to be any emotional baggage to go with it.

Re: gender identity: Having a female brain bonded/shared with a male will undoubtably have effects. Some male riders will have no problem with it, and will continue to identify as 'male'. Others will still identify as 'male', but will become more androgynous in appearance. Other ones will become more 'girly' (not meant as an insult, BTW) in mannerisms and appearance as they absorb more of their 'female' side.

Re: Impressing: The dragons seem to be attracted to people who have a void or need in their emotional life, perhaps because the dragon also needs someone.
This is not the only factor in choosing a rider, but it is one. Lessa had just lost her old life and a dear companion (the watchwher) when she Impressed Ramoth. Brekke almost Impressed a second time, when she was suffering the loss of Wirenth. Jaxom had need to be loved and accepted (which was not being met by Lytol) when he Impressed Ruth.

[P'ter]

I was reading back a bit to refresh my memory and came across Gidget's use of "reductio ad homo". On checking on line to see whether I was translating it correctly, my Latin being decades out of date, the Bing search engine complained that there was no known translation, would I like to contribute one?

One thing that is annoying me increasingly is the accepted use of "homo" to refer to male same-sex relationships. "Homo" means mankind the genus, not man the gender, that's "vir". So surely the correct term for such relationships is "Virisexual". Gramaticaly, we're ALL homosexual unless we're having intercourse with other species.

[Dalyna]

I thought the "homo" in "homosexual" meant same (as in 'homogenous'), rather than human as in 'homo sapiens', and technically should apply to female same-sex relationships as well as male.

[P'ter]

The urban theory on that is that Queen Victoria could not believe that women would "do that!" so female same sex relationships were dropped from the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861 (24 & 25 Vict c 100). Thus the term homosexual came to be linked solely to the males.

[vyon]

Does that explain why similar attitudes prevail in non-British countries?

[P'ter]

Victorian Brits managed to export a lot of attitudes/social conventions along with the more obvious commercial trading.

[vyon]

Yes, including exporting most of my ancestors. I wasn't thinking of colonies then, I was thinking about places like Russia where there are still anti-gay attitudes.