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#81 |
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Oddly enough, I looked up Godwin's Law just a few days ago for a discussion I've been following elsewhere on the net. That and Snacky's Law.
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#82 |
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Just looked up Snacky's Law
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#83 | |||
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I was really only skimming ED's overlong quoted replies, but I have one major objection to the following:
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I just remembered the name of the book I was trying to remember - Mirabile, by Janet Kagan - which involves a struggling planetary colony, in which even people not suited for parenting still have to contribute to the gene pool (by AI) and those who are, foster the extra children. Sounds pretty familiar, doesn't it?
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#84 |
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Thing is, and this is something I don't get is why they didn't widen the genepool with donor eggs and sperm from outside that of the colony by bringing a wide range with them?
Then those that wanted multiple children (and there appeared to be quite a few of them) could be encouraged (extra land grants etc) to act as surrogates. |
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#85 |
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Could/Should this be snipped into a new Thread? It's quite an interesting topic on its own!
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#86 | |
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#87 | |
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Gidget, I fid it hard to split this thread. It's the genepool you want to discuss further yes? So I'll try to copy Brend's post and the following to a new thread but leave them here too woth the added request to return to topic (although it hasn't really gone off...)
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#88 |
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LOL It's cool, Hans. I was just making a suggestion for ease of use!
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#89 |
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Good suggestions, Gidget, I love this resurrecton of Pern discussion; feel like the old good times (anybody remember member LFL?)
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#90 | |
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#91 | |
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Unfortunately, the only topics she ever posted on was the F'lar/Lessa/Kylara/Brekke/F'nor dynamics. |
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#92 |
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Electric Dragon reminds me of her, Shalyn!
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#93 |
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Before everybody jumps ship, this is just my two cents.
It seems to me that Candidate sexual preference does not matter as much as we all think. Brown riders definitely have a history of both homosexual and hexterosexual riders but it does seem that AM backs up in most of her works the dragon decides, the rider complies. However this does not mean a rider's conscious thought can't change things. Dragonquest is a good example of both. When F'nor goes to visit the Smithcrafthall at Telgar, he see the Fort Weyr brown-green pair. Their riders have both made the decision to be weyrmates, thus acknowledging their 'leanings'. However, F'nor when he sees them worries about Canth being upset and mentions that Canth has no shortage of partners. Seeing as all greens at this point are ridden by males, F'nor must have engaged in homosexual sex, but we all know that he is hextereosexual. There are also mentions of several green and blue riders having affairs with women. Therefore, it would seem that sexual preference does not matter much on moment of Impression. Indeed, there seems to almost be a checklist from what is in the books: 1. Telempathic ability 2. Complementary personality(notice use of the word complementary) 3. Will (combination of stubborness and determination. All riders have it. Some in unhealty amounts. i.e. T'ron and T'kul way too stubborn) 4. Nature 5. Gender match 6. Rest of criteria, including sexual preference. As you can see, sexual preference is low on the list. Indeed it seems that all riders can have whatever preferences they want, but they gotta make their dragon happy, and that means mating flights with whoever their dragon wants. |
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#94 | |
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#95 |
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I think gender matching would probably be more of a thrown out as well as sexual preference. by the feeling there would be a mindset more than preference. A feminine mindset would be closer to a gold and green dragon, though why there weren't homosexual male gold riders is Anne's prerogative. This being said a masculine mindset would be acceptable to Brown, Bronze, and Blue dragons, again this could open the way for bi/homosexual women in those postions, but didn't. "The dragon decides, the rider complies" is a byword of 9th pass Pern, not so much during first or even second pass. As Anne did say in her Tower series, the act is similar whether male or female partner for the "masculine" partner.
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#96 | |
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As an author, I would nail things down more exactingly, but I have the advantage of having read elaborate fictional worlds my entire life. McCaffrey and others cut their teeth on the concept, preceded notably only by Tolkien. |
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#97 |
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well, there WAS Burroughs on Mars before Tolkien did middle Earth. Authors have been writing Sci-Fi for centuries. Yes an author could nail down all aspects of their new world, and readers would read one book, and never buy another installment. People actually prefer picturing the worlds and filling them out with their own imaginations, freedom and free will. Of course there was the previous comment about different viewpoints on song lyrics a few pages back that nails down the reason for deliberate fuzziness. My personal feelings are that the mindset of riders through their dragons decide who could be acceptable for a dragon hatchling, and during Dragonflight weyrleadership. Until the weyrs opened up their thinking no women were green dragonriders. Women weren't even considered by green dragons despite them being on the grounds encircling the gold egg (when it showed). Overall the only dragon lore that hasn't been challenged by the author herself is that the Dragons were in a symbiotic telepathic relationship with dragons. The lore about Golds not chewing firestone because it would render them sterile was debunked in Dragonsdawn because ALL the golds produced initially attempted to chew firestone and none of them were sterilized.
I'm sticking with my previous conjecture that without external influence by mature dragons through their riders inhibiting choices, there COULD be masculine female homosexual riders on Male dragons, like there were homosexual male riders for green dragons. and possibly even homosexual male riders on Golds. |
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#98 | |
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1) Weyrleaders' desires not to have their greens down for pregnant riders; 2) Holds' needs for child-bearers. DD may have debunked the firestone sterilization belief, but it did establish that queens, nonetheless, could not flame. DD and CoP: FF also established that sex was a selection criteria. So I don't think you can validly throw it out. That does not mean, however, that one of the influences on selection could not be what the hatchling is picking up from "the crowd" in the form of other dragons and their riders. There are statements to support this (in MHoP, IIRC). However, dragons "do their own thing" often enough that it's certainly not a trump. People of different sexualities might possibly wind up on various non-standard dragons, but it seems unlikely. The high prevalence of homosexuals in the green ranks are the result of a human decision in contravention of the designer's intention and the preferences she programmed into the design of the dragons. For all we know, if adequate numbers of heterosexuals of both sexes were present, along with homosexuals, the dragons might not Impress any of the homosexuals. Now the dragons don't seem to be that inflexible. There are a lot of vectors that can be identified or reasonably presumed, and none seem to be a trump, except telempathic ability. After that, only sex is identified as a specific design criterion. As such, it has been demonstrated not to be an absolute, but other than the greens, it holds. We simply don't see any homosexual female riders, and it probably stems from the bronzes, browns and blues being routinely presented with sufficient numbers of male candidates they have no need to Impress homosexual women. This certainly implies that if all other factors are equal after telempathy, sex will trump the other selection criteria. So just as a male dragon might Impress a homosexual male rider, there is nothing to prevent a female dragon Impressing a homosexual female rider and such Impressions would probably happen before a homosexual rider of the opposite sex would be chosen. Like the male dragons, the gold dragons never lack for an adequate number of female candidates, so they do not need to Impress a male homosexual. In fact, as a matter of proportion, golds have more candidates per capita than the male dragons. At many of the hatchings, there are anywhere from a handful to a double handful of girls standing for a single queen eggs, while there are 40-50 boys standing for 30 other eggs. I think the only logical way such Impressions would occur would be for scarcity of candidates. They occur with greens for the same reason. So anything could happen, but the circumstances to precipitate such a thing would have to be quite extraordinary. Obviously the author and anyone fantasizing bout her work are free to do as and imagine whatever they like. |
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#99 | |
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GH |
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#100 | |
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#101 | |
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If gender is down the list, then, yes, that would make sense, but if gender is #2, then there should be some stories of a green choosing a gold candidate (especially if the gold has already chosen her rider). GH |
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#102 |
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Or not been hatched yet. Path "bucked the system" by picking Mirrim, even though society could now accept a female green rider. kinda ups the weight of "peer pressure" influencing who the green thinks is acceptable.
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#103 | |
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Also, one of the factors I've cited is proximity, and also "broadcasting" or "transmitting" emotionally. As far as proximity is concerned, the queen eggs is usually set apart from the others. As far as "broadcasting/transmitting" is concerned, the girls around the queen egg have their minds on the queen, not a green. |
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#104 | |
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Now I think the real explanation is that this is a gap in the author's coverage of the topic, so we thus have this situation open to question. |
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#105 |
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How do you figure "peer pressure" played into Mirrim's Impression of Path? I don't believe there was any fraction of the audience sitting there thinking "Mirrim should Impress a green." Heck, it appears Mirrim wasn't even thinking about it. (Which actually makes this one of the less explicable Impressions given what we understand about them, but hey, there's always an exception to prove a rule.)
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#106 |
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Yes and look at Ruth and Jaxom, one was considered to be a dragon runt and the other, most people thought would never amount to anything, even as a Lord Holder if you're looking at the weirdest choices made by either side. So draconic choices can be easily influenced by a rider as much as the rider's affected by the dragon. A case of take your point and run with it.
Also it's worth remembering that when Pern and its dragons were first being written, it was during a time when ladies didn't get much mention in written sci-fi/fantasy, they were simply there to hang off a male's arm and look good, especially if you comparing Burroughs's books of the time to nowadays, where there's a lot of strong female characters where the shoe is on the other foot and it's the man on the female's arm, hopefully making her look good. (I'll probably get stood upon for making these comments but it's just from reading those books and comparing them to what's written now and there's a lot of differences made). Also as Electric Dragon was saying about the first 3 passes, 6th pass, very little of #8 and mainly 9th pass is where we're getting the most information. If there was a more complete history from the days of Landing to say even up to a so called 10th pass, then we'd be able to comprehend and answer the questions rising in this thread but as there's a huge gap ...........hhhhmmmm........... it produces just more questions and possibilities of a rider's/dragon's choices regarding sexuality.
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#107 | |
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As the politically incorrect and carcinogenic ad says "You've come a long way, baby." Writers are certainly free to break characters out into previously unexplored areas and it produces some great stories. Pioneering characters like Lessa have paved the way for the Morgaine Angharins, Honor Harrington's, and Paksenarions of the present to enjoy alongside the John Clarks, Dirk Pitts, and Skua Septembers. |
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#108 |
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peer pressure of "greens must bond with homosexual boys" relaxing where a green dragon, maybe somewhat audacious, could push a bit and find a female rider during the current pass. That impression DID occur several years after Brekke voiced her thoughts on girls impressing fighting dragons to F'nor, who repeated it to F'lar. that kind of thinking is insidious. but if it was getting acceptable by riders, then it was only a matter of time before the idea became reality.
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#109 | |
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#110 |
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I think that could still work with gender as consideration #2. After all, if telempathic ability is #1, that makes complete sense. The candidates' focus ("telempathic preoccupation" possibly) at the time would affect their telempathic ability, at least at that time.
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#111 |
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Perhaps. I know that Hold-bred people seem to be more inflexible than others, but are there any Crafthall views on sexuality?
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#112 |
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I think I rather take on Sassinak then Honor Harrington (which I've never heard of before, ElectricDragon) if that's the case! Stood upon, my foot, huh!
As for hold sexuality, look at Menolly's parents, talk about stiff morality in every sense of the word. Probably wouldn't know what hit 'em unless it poke 'em in the eyeballs. Then go the complete opposite and look at Lord Fax, find a nice lookin girl, bed her, just to get the hold and then onto the next one. Not 100% sure on craft-bred though although I do remember a couple of characters mentioning something about it but can't think who.........
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#113 |
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Brekke was craftbred. She's the one that commented on craftbred sexuality being not open as compared to the Weyr.
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#114 |
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Sexual preference is a triad (think an isosceles triangle) with the apexes being Hetero, Homo, and Asexual. For each person we have relations with, we are at a different place inside that triad. If the edges of the triangle represents the emotional involvement in the relationship, then the exact centre of the triangle is where sex is simply a physical activity (a pleasing one) with no emotional attachment, and the genders(s) of the partner(s) is not important.
A male Green rider can be heterosexual, but, if there are no "other arrangements" and his Green rises, can accept the submissive role in the sex without there having to be any emotional baggage to go with it. Re: gender identity: Having a female brain bonded/shared with a male will undoubtably have effects. Some male riders will have no problem with it, and will continue to identify as 'male'. Others will still identify as 'male', but will become more androgynous in appearance. Other ones will become more 'girly' (not meant as an insult, BTW) in mannerisms and appearance as they absorb more of their 'female' side. Re: Impressing: The dragons seem to be attracted to people who have a void or need in their emotional life, perhaps because the dragon also needs someone. This is not the only factor in choosing a rider, but it is one. Lessa had just lost her old life and a dear companion (the watchwher) when she Impressed Ramoth. Brekke almost Impressed a second time, when she was suffering the loss of Wirenth. Jaxom had need to be loved and accepted (which was not being met by Lytol) when he Impressed Ruth. |
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#115 |
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I was reading back a bit to refresh my memory and came across Gidget's use of "reductio ad homo". On checking on line to see whether I was translating it correctly, my Latin being decades out of date, the Bing search engine complained that there was no known translation, would I like to contribute one?
![]() One thing that is annoying me increasingly is the accepted use of "homo" to refer to male same-sex relationships. "Homo" means mankind the genus, not man the gender, that's "vir". So surely the correct term for such relationships is "Virisexual". Gramaticaly, we're ALL homosexual unless we're having intercourse with other species.
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#116 |
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I thought the "homo" in "homosexual" meant same (as in 'homogenous'), rather than human as in 'homo sapiens', and technically should apply to female same-sex relationships as well as male.
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#117 |
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The urban theory on that is that Queen Victoria could not believe that women would "do that!" so female same sex relationships were dropped from the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861 (24 & 25 Vict c 100). Thus the term homosexual came to be linked solely to the males.
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#118 |
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Does that explain why similar attitudes prevail in non-British countries?
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#119 |
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Victorian Brits managed to export a lot of attitudes/social conventions along with the more obvious commercial trading.
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#120 |
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Yes, including exporting most of my ancestors. I wasn't thinking of colonies then, I was thinking about places like Russia where there are still anti-gay attitudes.
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Collecting Highlight (12) - A Diversity of Dragons | Hans | Collecting Highlights Archives | 26 | Jun 15 2017 07:53 AM |
Pern Colonist Genepool topic | Brenda | Dragonriders of Pern | 139 | Oct 11 2010 11:16 PM |
Adult Topic! Brekke...Tai... Rape vs. Forced/Coerced Sex | Cheryl | Dragonriders of Pern | 167 | May 7 2010 07:12 PM |
Dragonsue | Shalyn | Exhibit Hall | 45 | Oct 13 2009 09:42 AM |
Adult topic: When a green flies, how many other dragons try to catch her? | D. M. Domini | Dragonriders of Pern | 50 | Oct 11 2008 05:27 PM |