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Old Aug 11 2010, 09:54 PM   #1
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I'm a little surprised that samsara hasn't started this thread yet, but I guess I will. I'm also really anxious to discuss the book because none of my family members have read it yet.

I have one minor quibble with the book with regards to the girl who impressed a blue dragon since that seems contrary to everything considered to be canon.

Another little thing is that I thought were moments when I felt that every other discussion was about "timing it". Maybe it's because I as a reader have read so many Pern books that I understand the conventions of "timing" that sometimes that riders themselves have yet to learn.

I'm interested to see how Todd uses going forward in time as a plot device. At least, it's something that has been done in Anne's books a couple of times, Jaxom at the end of All the Weyrs, and during Moreta. I guess, one could also consider Lessa brought the Weyrs forward, but that's an entirely different situation. I want to know when Lorana has traveled to, and how she knows when she needs to go.

Overall, I enjoyed it, and at least we only have to wait until May for the next book. I don't know if I could really handle a wait longer than that with the cliffhanger we've got right now.
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Old Aug 11 2010, 10:20 PM   #2
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I wanted to R2005, but I have been so busy with Uni work, that I haven't had the time. I'm glad you went ahead and did it, because I have plenty to say about it. I think it is my least favourite of Todd's books so far. Xhinna impressing a blue stuck out in my mind too. At 1st I had a problem with it, but I have come to re-think my 1st reaction. I don't actually think the idea is all that far fetched, though I believe it is the 1st time a girl has impressed a blue (officially) on Pern. I do have some questions about it though... Do you think the fact the Xhinna is gay makes any difference to her impressing? How would Xhinna being gay affect her blue when he rises to mate? It would be likely that if he flew a green, that said green's rider would be male. How would this affect Xhinna?

I can't really go into detail now (I'm at work) but some of the things I want to talk about are:

*The Deep Ones
*Lorana controlling Zirenth in 3 mating flights
*Lorana & Kindan fighting thread on Zirenth
*The big relationship between Fiona, Lorana, Kindan, T'mar & Shaneese
*Kindan being appointed Weyrlingmaster, despite not having a Dragon of his own
*Tuella offering her Queen as payment to Lorana in order to save B'nik
*Lorana accepting Tullea's offer, and basically stealing her Queen
*Fiona saying she would rather lose Talenth then lose Lorana, and Talenth agreeing with her.
*Lorana & Fiona's telepathic relationship
*Lorana travelling into the Future


That about covers it for now. I will go into more detail regarding these issues tonight.
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Old Aug 11 2010, 11:51 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Samsara View Post
I wanted to R2005, but I have been so busy with Uni work, that I haven't had the time. I'm glad you went ahead and did it, because I have plenty to say about it. I think it is my least favourite of Todd's books so far. Xhinna impressing a blue stuck out in my mind too. At 1st I had a problem with it, but I have come to re-think my 1st reaction. I don't actually think the idea is all that far fetched, though I believe it is the 1st time a girl has impressed a blue (officially) on Pern. I do have some questions about it though... Do you think the fact the Xhinna is gay makes any difference to her impressing? How would Xhinna being gay affect her blue when he rises to mate? It would be likely that if he flew a green, that said green's rider would be male. How would this affect Xhinna?

I can't really go into detail now (I'm at work) but some of the things I want to talk about are:

*The Deep Ones <sinp>
*Lorana controlling Zirenth in 3 mating flights
*Lorana & Kindan fighting thread on Zirenth
*The big relationship between Fiona, Lorana, Kindan, T'mar & Shaneese
*Kindan being appointed Weyrlingmaster, despite not having a Dragon of his own
*Tuella offering her Queen as payment to Lorana in order to save B'nik
*Lorana accepting Tullea's offer, and basically stealing her Queen
*Fiona saying she would rather lose Talenth then lose Lorana, and Talenth agreeing with her.
*Lorana travelling into the Future

That about covers it for now. I will go into more detail regarding these issues tonight.
*Lorana & Fiona's telepathic relationship Kinda reminds me of Lessa and her 'leaning on folk" SoP.

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Old Aug 12 2010, 01:46 AM   #4
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Interesting points of discussion samsara and I'm sure slowly but surely, we'll get through them.

I think the thing that bothers me is that I don't see a point in Xhinna impressing a blue, unless there's some part she'll play in the next book. Even if she's the only girl to impress a blue, it still strikes me as going against established canon no matter how I try to dissect it.

Lorana and Kindan fighting thread on Zirenth together doesn't bother me completely. At least in the sense that it's not the first time that a character has considered putting an able-bodied riders on another rider's dragon. For example, Moreta riding Lori's gold during her ride, and F'lar considering having N'ton riding another dragon. I think it's the fact that they're doing it together because it just seems like it would be awkward and not safe no matter how many precautions they took. Flying thread is dangerous enough when it's just rider and dragon, so how much more dangerous is it when adding another variable?

I know that there's so much more to say, but my mind is going blank at the moment.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 04:25 AM   #5
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I do have some questions about it though... Do you think the fact the Xhinna is gay makes any difference to her impressing? How would Xhinna being gay affect her blue when he rises to mate? It would be likely that if he flew a green, that said green's rider would be male. How would this affect Xhinna?
How would a straight male riding blue in the 9th pass be affected when his blue catches a male-ridden green? Or a straight bronzerider flying a male-ridden green? Or a female greenrider caught by a gay bluerider?


These variables really don't matter. The dragon decides, the rider complies.

Really, it's GREAT to see this. Lesbians exist, and if a green can accept a gay man, there's no logical reason why a blue wouldn't find a gay woman an ideal match.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 07:02 AM   #6
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*Lorana controlling Zirenth in 3 mating flights
*Lorana & Kindan fighting thread on Zirenth
*Kindan being appointed Weyrlingmaster, despite not having a Dragon of his own
*Tuella offering her Queen as payment to Lorana in order to save B'nik
*Lorana accepting Tullea's offer, and basically stealing her Queen
*Fiona saying she would rather lose Talenth then lose Lorana, and Talenth agreeing with her.
*Lorana & Fiona's telepathic relationship
*Lorana travelling into the Future

That about covers it for now. I will go into more detail regarding these issues tonight.
...I don't think I'll be reading this.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 07:12 AM   #7
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Noooo... don't say that because of what I wrote...
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Old Aug 12 2010, 07:47 AM   #8
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Well I've managed 41 pages so far and decided to go ahead and read the spoilers to see if there was any reason to continue.

*Kindan being appointed Weyrlingmaster, despite not having a Dragon of his own
That makes me want to quit now

Most of the other * sound pretty bad too

*Xhinna impressing a blue
As bad as that sounds I do like blue dragons so that is something interesting. Does that happen right at the end or do we actually get to see her raise the blue any?

After reading everything here and the reviews on amazon I think this is going to get a skimming at best.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 07:53 AM   #9
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Darn...I really can't wait for this to come out where I live. That doesn't mean I can't still make mad theories! Let's see, out of those notes...

Quote:
*Lorana controlling Zirenth in 3 mating flights
*Lorana & Fiona's telepathic relationship
I guess Todd is really exploring the potential of a HAD's telepathic power. As strange as it sounds, I suppose you could suggest that all HADs have the ability to do this sort of thing, but that none of them really figured out how to use it.
Quote:
*Kindan being appointed Weyrlingmaster, despite not having a Dragon of his own
Not an issue to me. It makes sense that in a time of crisis, anybody would be thrown into the field. But now that I think about it, surely there would be at least ONE dragonrider who could be spared to teach the weyrlings. Unless of course, they were all too busy dealing with Thread with their reduced wings.
Quote:
*Lorana & Kindan fighting thread on Zirenth
*Lorana travelling into the Future
Not an issue. Although where's the Weyrleader? I guess this could be explained that with such reduced wings, getting the dragons to fight thread in any possible way has to be done. And if the rider is safe, well and not unconcious, there's little reason why their dragon wouldn't fight. They'd just need a random person to give them firestone.
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*Tuella offering her Queen as payment to Lorana in order to save B'nik
*Lorana accepting Tullea's offer, and basically stealing her Queen
When I saw that, I thought that was seriously going against canon, but r2005 raises a good point; that Moreta did a similar thing with Holth, so I suppose it's not too different.
Quote:
*Fiona saying she would rather lose Talenth then lose Lorana, and Talenth agreeing with her.
Urgh. Sounds like odd writing to me. Moving on...
Quote:
*The Deep Ones
Haven't heard of this before; what does that refer to?
Quote:
*The big relationship between Fiona, Lorana, Kindan, T'mar & Shaneese
Whatever.

As for Xhinna, I thought Todd was hinting that she'd be a blue rider in Dragonheart, or that he'd put a girl on a blue soon enough. I guess that was meant to solve the debate of whether girls could ride blues or not (which I personally thought made sense). Of course, whenever you change an element of canon, the purists cry foul (fair enough). You can't please everyone.

BTW, when the blurb for this book was released, it said that the story took place in Telgar Weyr. Were any details of the layout of the Weyr included? I ask because a while back, I did a huge post about mapping all the Weyrs of Pern, and I had the atlas maps for Fort, Benden, High Reaches and Ista, and enough info in Dragonheart to map Igen, but not enough in Red Star Rising for Telgar.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 08:00 AM   #10
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I am very reluctant to say anything else about this book until more people have read it.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 09:20 AM   #11
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Should an Admin type move this to the 'Book Discussion' section?
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Old Aug 12 2010, 09:26 AM   #12
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As for Xhinna, I thought Todd was hinting that she'd be a blue rider in Dragonheart, or that he'd put a girl on a blue soon enough. I guess that was meant to solve the debate of whether girls could ride blues or not (which I personally thought made sense). Of course, whenever you change an element of canon, the purists cry foul (fair enough). You can't please everyone.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because it hadn't been SEEN in canon before now doesn't make it canon-breaking.

With the set-up of the Weyrs and the natural tendency of dragons to stick to their own gender and orientation as the default option, Impression against gender only becomes commonplace when options become restricted. Impression of homosexual men began with a bluerider, and was only encouraged with the presentation of more candidates, changed expectations from the candidates themselves, and the decrease in available women to stand for green. Homosexual men were actively encouraged to find a role in the Weyr, given the advantages in continued Threadfighting ability due to no time-out for pregnancy, and the more tolerant sexual atmosphere of the Weyr as opposed to the Holds. As far as lesbians go, they'd be no more unlikely to Impress a green than a gay man would be to Impress a blue or a brown - but the lesbian/blue Impression is a very different scenario to the gay male/green one. Greens Impress males for many possible different reasons - from lack of choice, need, the best option available at the time... all the way up to the ideal of a genuine meeting of two perfectly compatible beings. Does anyone think the latter is the most common scenario? I don't. Social demographics and the necessities of Threadfighting make green Impressions of men a favourable option. The same rules don't rule out female impression of blues, but they would lead to it being an unusual and rare event.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 01:26 PM   #13
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BTW, when the blurb for this book was released, it said that the story took place in Telgar Weyr. Were any details of the layout of the Weyr included? I ask because a while back, I did a huge post about mapping all the Weyrs of Pern, and I had the atlas maps for Fort, Benden, High Reaches and Ista, and enough info in Dragonheart to map Igen, but not enough in Red Star Rising for Telgar.
There are a few details describing the location of the Weyrleaders' quarters in relation to the Junior Weyrwomen's quarters, late in the book. It's in a section where they were talking about moving people around. The discussion starts on pg 460 of the US edition.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 04:50 PM   #14
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I am very reluctant to say anything else about this book until more people have read it.
The thread title says *Spoiler*. I think people can handle it.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 06:33 PM   #15
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The whole gay guys being limited pretty much to greens and blues never made a whole lot a sense to me. It makes sense with greens but even most of the bronze dragons are only banging greens so most bronze riders are doing the deed with dudes and all the brown riders are. I'm sure they would rather bang the golds but it is a pretty select few that get too. I'm sure a blue wouldn't turn down a gold either given the chance. Anyway given that a gay girl should be able to impress a bronze just as easy as a blue.

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Old Aug 12 2010, 06:42 PM   #16
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*The Deep Ones
Haven't heard of this before; what does that refer to?
I'm pretty sure that this is referring to the Traders that Fiona met while she was in Igen, and that they were able to see the future.

I need to go back and read the book where they first appear in again. I just need to remember which one it is, and remember if my uncle returned the ones that he borrowed.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 07:11 PM   #17
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The thread title says *Spoiler*. I think people can handle it.
It is not that I think people can't handle it Brenda. I just don't like to think that somebody may not read the book based on something I have said. I'm sorry if that sounds melodramatic, but I think people should read it and judge for themselves.

*sigh* Maybe you are right.

Ok fine, but before I say anymore, can I please just say that I think everyone should read this book.....
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Old Aug 12 2010, 07:25 PM   #18
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I'm pretty sure that this is referring to the Traders that Fiona met while she was in Igen, and that they were able to see the future.

I need to go back and read the book where they first appear in again. I just need to remember which one it is, and remember if my uncle returned the ones that he borrowed.
Nope. Nothing to do with the traders.

"The Deep Ones" are only mentioned once in the story, and not much is said about them. There is a scene where Lorana & a few others go out on the ocean to sink some left over medical equipment. They come across a pod of dolphins and their boat is overturned. Lorana points to something very large in the water. The captain informs them that these sea creatures are called "the Deep Ones". Lorana tells everyone that they are telepathic creaures & that she can sort of communicate with them. When someone asks her if they are like dragons, she replies that "they are more like dolphins, only much bigger, and different". Then they sink the equipment and go back to shore.

I am both intrigued & troubled by these Deep Ones. I am not sure how I feel about another telepathic creature on Pern. I want to know what they are. The impression given, is that of some kind of whale like creature. But where do they come from? Are they Pernese natives or some kind of Terran import?
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Old Aug 12 2010, 07:37 PM   #19
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Oh, that scene, gotcha. I guess I glazed over that line while I was reading the book, although it probably didn't help that I was reading the book at 1am, so I probably missed some important details here or there.

I suppose that it's possible that there's some native creature in the water that could survive thread even if other wildlife forms haven't before Pern was settled. Id' have to go back and reread parts of Dragonsdawn in order to see the list of creatures that were brought to Pern.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 09:37 PM   #20
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Whales weren't among the colonists.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 09:46 PM   #21
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It is not that I think people can't handle it Brenda. I just don't like to think that somebody may not read the book based on something I have said. I'm sorry if that sounds melodramatic, but I think people should read it and judge for themselves.

*sigh* Maybe you are right.

Ok fine, but before I say anymore, can I please just say that I think everyone should read this book.....
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound snarky!
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Old Aug 12 2010, 10:28 PM   #22
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Whales weren't among the colonists.
I didn't think that they were, even though it's been awhile since I've read Dragonsdawn.

Was anything mentioned about sea life in the short story in Chronicles? It's been awhile since I've read that one, too.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 10:44 PM   #23
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Well, didn't he stick hawks in there where they shouldn't have been? Why not whales?
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Old Aug 12 2010, 10:49 PM   #24
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No whales - only dolphins. The rest of the animals were bovine, feline, canine or that sort of variety that you'd find on a farm. It was mainly suppose to be a pastural-type planet and as AMC or Todd have not delved into the aquatic side of things much (barring dolphins), it could be just a slip of tongue whilst writing or it could be a potential storyline at a later date. I'm still reading the book so I'll add my comments as I go along. There's a few points that I'm working upon but I'll read the story first before making more comments. Only fair as I don't want to seem like I know everything when in reality, it's diddly-squat especially when I haven't finished the book yet.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 11:09 PM   #25
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When it comes to some of the animals on Pern, there always seem to be loose ends with them. In Dragonsblood, Wind Blossom makes a veiled comment about the cat and their importance, and I'm sure it's beyond any role they played in Moreta.

Found my copy of Chronicles, no real mention of fauna besides a glimpse of the fire lizards.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 11:51 PM   #26
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Interesting points of discussion samsara and I'm sure slowly but surely, we'll get through them.

I think the thing that bothers me is that I don't see a point in Xhinna impressing a blue, unless there's some part she'll play in the next book. Even if she's the only girl to impress a blue, it still strikes me as going against established canon no matter how I try to dissect it.

Lorana and Kindan fighting thread on Zirenth together doesn't bother me completely. At least in the sense that it's not the first time that a character has considered putting an able-bodied riders on another rider's dragon. For example, Moreta riding Lori's gold during her ride, and F'lar considering having N'ton riding another dragon. I think it's the fact that they're doing it together because it just seems like it would be awkward and not safe no matter how many precautions they took. Flying thread is dangerous enough when it's just rider and dragon, so how much more dangerous is it when adding another variable?

I know that there's so much more to say, but my mind is going blank at the moment.
I can't remember the first color pairings from Kitti's first created clutch, but with such a dire need on Pern I believe that changes (and possible as result of the cure) in pairings were inevitable.

I wouldn't say that Loranna stole Tullea's Queen as Loranna had asked one more time. I was also let down at the end since we still don't know (for sure) that it was Loranna that took Fiona back to Igen.

My only quarrel with the book was the non stop peril, seemed every chapter was "Were all gonna Die!" type feeling. The previous books had a good mixture of happy upbeat chapters and sorrow filled chapters. I was reading, thinking 'I' was missing the times back in Igen and at a few points was hard to pick the book back up (after changing airplanes) knowing that death and misery were all that awaited.


I also don't see how Loranna going into the future will help if they've only what 30 more falls or so before no more Fighting dragons left. If the future was successful why wait so long to come back and begin aging weyrlings in the future? They need help now or is this going to be a last ditch hail mary save...

Well back to reading through everyones reviews and contemplate
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Old Aug 12 2010, 11:58 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Samsara View Post
Nope. Nothing to do with the traders.

"The Deep Ones" are only mentioned once in the story, and not much is said about them. There is a scene where Lorana & a few others go out on the ocean to sink some left over medical equipment. They come across a pod of dolphins and their boat is overturned. Lorana points to something very large in the water. The captain informs them that these sea creatures are called "the Deep Ones". Lorana tells everyone that they are telepathic creaures & that she can sort of communicate with them. When someone asks her if they are like dragons, she replies that "they are more like dolphins, only much bigger, and different". Then they sink the equipment and go back to shore.

I am both intrigued & troubled by these Deep Ones. I am not sure how I feel about another telepathic creature on Pern. I want to know what they are. The impression given, is that of some kind of whale like creature. But where do they come from? Are they Pernese natives or some kind of Terran import?

I am pretty sure Deep ones are some form of Whale whether from Earth or some other known Planet. Since Dolphins are smaller they do not hold their breath very long and from History Channel or something the whale is able to hold's breath longer than most animals on today's earth. (Something like 20-30 minutes) thus allowing them to go deeper.
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Old Aug 13 2010, 12:02 AM   #28
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Well, didn't he stick hawks in there where they shouldn't have been? Why not whales?
I had the same thought when I was writing my previous answer. Things like that are more reasons why I've come to think of Todd's books as an alternate reality Pern. He seems to think nothing of discarding canon or throwing in themes that are blantantly impossible or at least highly improbable.
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Old Aug 13 2010, 03:02 AM   #29
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I didn't think that they were, even though it's been awhile since I've read Dragonsdawn.

Was anything mentioned about sea life in the short story in Chronicles? It's been awhile since I've read that one, too.
In DD where Sean and Sorka are hiding under the stone ledge in like minnows come and feed on Thread. I think. http://books.google.com/books?id=YUv...horses&f=false

Here some a bit early in the book http://books.google.com/books?id=YUv...q=Duke&f=false sea snakes
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Old Aug 13 2010, 06:50 AM   #30
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So I've made it 200 pages now and so far about 100 of those are just on Fiona's sleeping arrangements. Getting kind of old and worn out. I don't hate the book anymore at least. I've read enough now that I can finally make sense of what is going on again. With all the book's time lines mixing together and the timing it all over the place it is very hard to keep things straight with a year give or take between me reading each the books. I've been reading way too many dragons books lately. They all tend to blend together. Just hit the part with the sex triangle mess, or would that be a sex hexagon counting coma boy and the two dragons?, and had to quit for a bit lol.
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Old Aug 13 2010, 08:48 AM   #31
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I had the same thought when I was writing my previous answer. Things like that are more reasons why I've come to think of Todd's books as an alternate reality Pern. He seems to think nothing of discarding canon or throwing in themes that are blantantly impossible or at least highly improbable.
^ This.
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Old Aug 13 2010, 10:10 AM   #32
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Sorry, I didn't mean to sound snarky!
Neither did I, so I'm sorry too.
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Old Aug 13 2010, 11:01 AM   #33
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The only thing on there I DON'T take issue with is the idea of a girl on blue. With men on green, the idea that women could Impress blues is LONG overdue.

Substitutes in mating flights? Maybe. But the scenario described sounds bizarre in the extreme.

Trading one's own queen to save your lover or whatever is, quite bluntly, the STUPIDIST thing ever written about Pern. You want to talk about flying in the face of canon and Lorana being a Mary Sue? There you go. Holth PERMITTED Moreta to ride her in emergency situations where Holth's own rider wasn't physically fit to go or where Moreta's specific talents were needed, and ONLY because Moreta's own queen wasn't able to leave her clutch. There wasn't even any assumption Holth and Moreta would be in danger, let alone that they might never come back--the one thing that is crystal clear in the end of Moreta is that NOTHING can replace Holth for Leri, or Moreta for Orltih. Even with far more time to recover than usual (as Orlith delays her suicide until hatching) they can't. There is no point to existance for Orlith, and Leri can't bring herself to live without Holth. In Dragonquest, the people (and firelizard) who care most about Brekke are the ones who firmly believe attempting to reimpress is WRONG and they turn out to be right. Brekke's not made 100% whole again or even better right away, let alone "Okay, I'm good now!" Being an HAD and having F'nor and Mirrim and Manora and Canth and Berd all there and loving and supporting her lets her keep her *sanity*. That's about all. Lytol spends literally decades in mental pain, during much of which time he can't even be anywhere near the Weyr, and never quite is able to look at a dragon without some pain. Kylara's mind breaks. The ex-rider who's with Thella's raiders is completely, irredeemably psychotic. The idea of losing one's dragon is, it has been firmly established, UTTERLY UNTHINKABLE. The idea that a queen rider would TRADE her queen like it was a particularly-unloved pony or even a bicycle completely flies in the face of everything Anne wrote about the dragon-rider bond. Or that another gold rider would say she'd rather lose her queen than...her female friend? And her queen agrees?

I'm sorry, but if this were any other author I'd ask if they'd even read the older books.
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Old Aug 13 2010, 02:32 PM   #34
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I am pretty sure Deep ones are some form of Whale whether from Earth or some other known Planet. Since Dolphins are smaller they do not hold their breath very long and from History Channel or something the whale is able to hold's breath longer than most animals on today's earth. (Something like 20-30 minutes) thus allowing them to go deeper.
The colonists didn't bring any whales, just 25 dolphins, according to DLG. The dolphins were mentasynth-enhanced and trained to work with humans. There would be no good reason to bring whales along.

However, the chief dolphin (known as the Tillek) in Dolphins of Pern was a lot bigger and wiser than most of the others, and wasn't seen unless she wanted to be. So maybe the Deep Ones were just big, old, wise dolphins who trained the younger ones and mostly kept out of sight of the humans. Not having read this book, I don't know if that fits the context.

Christine/Eriflor.
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Old Aug 13 2010, 04:28 PM   #35
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someone suggested to me that i write to Todd, and ask him about some of the points in his books that i cant wrap my mind around. so i thought i would post it here. please, no flames...all the Pern books mean a lot to me, and when things are changed as much as they have been in the last few books, i really want to know the whys and all of it.

"Hello!

First of all, I have to ask if you could convey to your mother my thanks for all the wonderful worlds she has allowed me to visit through her books over the years. My first, 'The White Dragon' I got when it was fresh off the presses, and I've loved her dragons ever since, and now my children are coming to love Pern as well. Its really too bad that such creatures dont actually exist, but I have experienced a bond very similar to the dragon/rider's, with the service and guide dogs I have had over the years. You never really 'get over' the loss of each one, they leave their mark on your soul for all time, though the next guide dog may be just as loving and helpful.

And I have been so glad to see the work you have done with the whers-a creature I have had wondered about more and more over the years. I love that you have them working with the Weyrs, and establishing them as a respected entity on Pern, something that took far too long....always wondered why WindBlossom allowed them to be dissed and put down as of little or no value. But I have some questions about them, and about your current storylines, that I really dont understand. I do realise you cant answer me personally, but perhaps my letter might be posted to those you do put up on your site? I am sure others have wondered about the same things.

* in many places in her books, your mother made very clear that nothing could survive the touch of Thread, other than metal and stone, that nothing living could come in contact with it while it was potent and live. The dolphins and fish could eat it, but only after it was dead by drowning. Yet you have the whers 'eating' Thread while flying Threadfall with Fort and Telgar Weyrs, in your most recent books. Since they are close relatives to the dragons and firelizards, how can this be possible? All three share the same basic physical structure, with the whers differing only in that they have nightvision, are smaller than dragons, with chunkier build, thicker skins. How can their mouths and internal organs be tougher than their skins, which is not Threadproof?

* one thing I have wondered for years about is why Thread never falls at night. Your mother made it clear that it freezes or drowns in cold air or rain, but that wouldnt explain no night Falls completely. So why did none of the Weyrs fly night Falls from the beginning? Why the sudden appearance of Thread at night? If WindBlossom created the whers with nightvision, it seems logical that they would be part of the Weyrs, as the 'night flight scouts' of the night Falls, not dissed and shunted off as 'ugly freaks'. Seems to me that it would have been logical to have had their breeding/hatching/training take place there in each Weyr, so that the dragons and whers would train together to coordinate in Threadfalls. So I really dont understand at all why the sudden appearance of night Falls, and why the whers are only now discovered as the answer.

* in "Moreta", Fort Weyr learned the hard way that it isnt a good idea to have riders mount others dragons for other than hops around the Weyr. And the real reason for Moreta's death was Recorded there, though for some reason the information was suppressed, and the Ballad has her riding Orlith. So why is it that suddenly, in just the next Pass, this information is ignored or forgotten, and once again riders are on other riders dragons? And even non dragonriders riding Threadfall! I truly do not understand why the Weryling Masters would not have retained that vital info, and passed it along through the Interval, and with the passage of time, it become so ingrained that the notion would be never entertained as doable, knowing the danger entailed. So why all the mount switching in "DragonGirl"? As much time as the main characters spend in the Records, its should be impossible that they not know the danger of this practise, especially in Fort Weyr, where Moreta and Orlith lived.

* a last question! Again, the Records of Fort Weyr would have detailed the Plague of Moreta's time, and how it was cured through serum vaccine. And the same info would have been on record in the Healer Hall and the BeastHall. Why, then, did no one remember it when the Plague struck Holds, killing most of the people? Why didnt anyone create vaccine and distribute it through the dragonriders, as the riders brought food? Yes, there were fewer people who recovered, but wouldnt there have been enough to donate even a little blood each, to make up sufficent quantity to go around?


So sorry for the long questions! I am disabled, and housebound, so a great deal of my time is spent in reading, and I have a mental quirk that causes me to essentially 'watch' the books I read, somewhat as if I were watching a movie, but more intensely, as though I were part of what I am watching/reading. So I've been 'able' to ride Ruth and Orlith, help in Ingen Weyr with Fiona, and hunt the beaches of Southern for my very own firelizard. I thank you and your wonderful mother for the many years I have 'spent' on Pern, and look forward to many more."
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Old Aug 13 2010, 05:06 PM   #36
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Well, you'll have an easier time wrapping your head around some of the things you have issues with once you've placed Todd's books back in the Third Pass, pre-Moreta...

But yeah, the whole Wher saliva thing has always bugged the hell out of me. Good luck getting an answer for it, but chances are, if you get any reply at all it'll be just to point out your misplaced timings for the different novels.

Edit to add: if you don't get a reply about thread falling at night, it's very easy to engineer it so that it normally doesn't... (basically by placing the Thread ovoids ahead of Pern in its orbit around Rukbat, then setting things up so that the length of time it takes them to get through the atmosphere always places Thread on the day side of the planet).

Of course, if an author then wanted to alter that, you could then add some kind of temporary or semi-permanent perturbation to get night falls either every now and then, for a several year period, or for the length of a full Pass. Just set up some strategic magnetic fields, or time the Pass with a change in the solar wind/cycle, or anything else that'd mess up Thread's behaviour in the local space of Pern.

I don't like night falls myself, but I can figure out ways to justify them if I must. Astronomy has plenty of room for tweaks like this.
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Old Aug 13 2010, 05:20 PM   #37
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yes, i was shocked also by the all the dragon-swapping and such that happened in this last book. the unlikelyhood of a blue taking to a girl doesnt work with what AMC had said about KittiPing making the pairing sexlinked, so i dont understand how it worked with Xhinna, though i rather like it myself. Blues have always been some of my faves in the books.

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The only thing on there I DON'T take issue with is the idea of a girl on blue. With men on green, the idea that women could Impress blues is LONG overdue.

Substitutes in mating flights? Maybe. But the scenario described sounds bizarre in the extreme.

Trading one's own queen to save your lover or whatever is, quite bluntly, the STUPIDIST thing ever written about Pern. You want to talk about flying in the face of canon and Lorana being a Mary Sue? There you go. Holth PERMITTED Moreta to ride her in emergency situations where Holth's own rider wasn't physically fit to go or where Moreta's specific talents were needed, and ONLY because Moreta's own queen wasn't able to leave her clutch. There wasn't even any assumption Holth and Moreta would be in danger, let alone that they might never come back--the one thing that is crystal clear in the end of Moreta is that NOTHING can replace Holth for Leri, or Moreta for Orltih. Even with far more time to recover than usual (as Orlith delays her suicide until hatching) they can't. There is no point to existance for Orlith, and Leri can't bring herself to live without Holth. In Dragonquest, the people (and firelizard) who care most about Brekke are the ones who firmly believe attempting to reimpress is WRONG and they turn out to be right. Brekke's not made 100% whole again or even better right away, let alone "Okay, I'm good now!" Being an HAD and having F'nor and Mirrim and Manora and Canth and Berd all there and loving and supporting her lets her keep her *sanity*. That's about all. Lytol spends literally decades in mental pain, during much of which time he can't even be anywhere near the Weyr, and never quite is able to look at a dragon without some pain. Kylara's mind breaks. The ex-rider who's with Thella's raiders is completely, irredeemably psychotic. The idea of losing one's dragon is, it has been firmly established, UTTERLY UNTHINKABLE. The idea that a queen rider would TRADE her queen like it was a particularly-unloved pony or even a bicycle completely flies in the face of everything Anne wrote about the dragon-rider bond. Or that another gold rider would say she'd rather lose her queen than...her female friend? And her queen agrees?

I'm sorry, but if this were any other author I'd ask if they'd even read the older books.
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Old Aug 13 2010, 05:25 PM   #38
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the unlikelyhood of a blue taking to a girl doesnt work with what AMC had said about KittiPing making the pairing sexlinked, so i dont understand how it worked with Xhinna, though i rather like it myself. Blues have always been some of my faves in the books.
It's no less unlikely than male humans Impressing female green dragons, surely?
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Old Aug 13 2010, 06:26 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by LadyDeerskin View Post
yes, i was shocked also by the all the dragon-swapping and such that happened in this last book. the unlikelyhood of a blue taking to a girl doesnt work with what AMC had said about KittiPing making the pairing sexlinked, so i dont understand how it worked with Xhinna, though i rather like it myself. Blues have always been some of my faves in the books.
Anne clearly explained in CoP that greens could Impress men if the men were homosexual, so why would it be a stretch for blues to impress homosexual women? I'm more suprised that it took this long for it to be written about in one of the books!
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Old Aug 13 2010, 06:40 PM   #40
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oh, its fun to play any of dragons! i had two blues and a brown in the old Weyr i played in, and i always had straight female riders....the only one i always wanted, but no one was allowed to have a white. rats...i love Ruth!


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Anne clearly explained in CoP that greens could Impress men if the men were homosexual, so why would it be a stretch for blues to impress homosexual women? I'm more suprised that it took this long for it to be written about in one of the books!
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