A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum  

Go Back   A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum > The Anne McCaffrey Collection > Dragonriders of Pern
FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Mar 30 2006, 01:55 AM   #1
Dragonlover
Inactive
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Dimas
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern
Now Reading: Dragonsblood
Question Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

In all of the 15 books written solely by anne mccaffrey, it mentions time and again that meeting yourself in time is severly weakening, if not fatal. But in both Dragon's Kin and Dragonsblood, it mentions that both masterharper Zist and Dragonrider M'ridin met themselves between, one realizing it was him, and the other not. How could this be explained without contradicting anything written? Anne makes it clear in the Introduction of Dragonsblood that she checked Todd's work closely and thoroughly.
Dragonlover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30 2006, 02:02 AM   #2
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonlover
In all of the 15 books written solely by anne mccaffrey, it mentions time and again that meeting yourself in time is severly weakening, if not fatal.
Does it?

Existing in the same time as another version of yourself is weakening, true, and the effects get worse the more of you there are at any given point in the timeline. But I don't think we see any characters other than those you mentioned actually meeting their past/future selves. And I'm fairly sure that we don't have any evidence to suggest it could be fatal.

Of course, I could be remembering things wrong. Anyone got any citations to hand?
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30 2006, 03:03 AM   #3
Dragonlover
Inactive
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Dimas
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern
Now Reading: Dragonsblood
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

in the books there are mentions of a belief that you would die when you met yourself, but the meetings were in the books associated with Todd McCaffrey
Dragonlover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30 2006, 03:11 AM   #4
Hans
Master Archivist
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern!
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Todd decided that really meeting yourself (meeting as in looking yourself in the eye and it seems even touching) has only a (relatively) slight effect; as heir to Pern it seems his prerogative *shrug*

Meeting yourself in general (from a certain distance) can't be fatal as dragonriders (e.g. Lessa and Kylara) went back in time and "saw" themselves. About kylara it's even said she couldn't resist doing it many times.
__________________
Hans, also known as Elrhan, Master Archivist

Visit The Pern Museum & Archives for all your Pern and Anne McCaffrey News and Resources!
The Pern Museum & Archives is the home of the Pern Encyclopedia and the Pern Bloodlines.
Hans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30 2006, 03:18 AM   #5
Spaceman Spiff
Inactive
 
Spaceman Spiff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Gender: M
Fan of: PERN!!!
Now Reading: Lord of the Rings
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

People always make up myths and beliefs, and the "fatal" thing seems to be one of them for the Pernese. But it's still explicitly stated that it IS a strain, and not just a slight one. I don't think it would be too unreasonable for a person to black out when meeting themselves, but I highly doubt it really is that life-threatening.

But Todd still disgregards established material and hardly includes any strain. I seriously do not understand how Anne could have sifted through his material that much and found nothing wrong with it, it's ridiculous.
Spaceman Spiff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30 2006, 10:18 AM   #6
Ryuu
Evil Gold Fiend Dragon
 
Ryuu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Back in the USSA
Gender: M
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

F'nor said that nearly everyone in Southern Weyr was affected, EXCEPT Kylara--yet the riders, who are more than halfway across the planet, are devastated, but Kylara, who routinely pops in over her Daddy's Hold in order to watch herself, shows no effect what-so-ever?

Also, the strain apparently accumulates over the time you're there--it was worse for the "much older F'nor", yet a few minutes later, a clearly enthusiastic "older F'nor" reported that the eggs had all hatched and wondered how F'lar "knew" to send just 17 people for Impression.

It evidently depends on the person how resistant you are to the strain.

Maybe M'ridin was one of Kylara's ancestors? As for MasterHarper Zist, there's still the question as to whether a Non-Impressed individual would even be affected by timing--since it's my belief that temporal-sickness is caused by being Impressed to a Pernese native, and the strain is the result of the native's confusion as to which version of "you" the dragon is supposed to be Looking to.

Jaxom-watching-the-Hatching-grounds was severely affected when Jaxom-returning-the-egg popped in because Jaxom-watching-the-Hatching-grounds' Ruth was OUTSIDE, where that younger dragon would "see" TWO Jaxoms, BOTH of them nearly the same distance from the younger Ruth....But the Ruth belonging to Jaxom-returning-the-egg was MUCH closer to HIS rider, who was still sitting on his back, than the Jaxom-watching-the-Hatching-grounds, who was still in the viewing stands.

And yes, the 9th Pass riders speculated that meeting one's self would be fatal--but they never put it to the test!--so it remained an assumption of fatality.

Todd simply had one of his riders put it to the test and proved it was a myth. A caveat has to be kept in mind, however--The strain on the rider could potentially cause the future pair returning to their time to get lost...so people may still die from a timing event, but NOT EVERYONE! After all, people and dragons get lost all the time between, but NOT EVERYONE!

This is one of those things that has most certainly been answered for years within the McCaffrey household while the debate raged like wildfire (& wild speculations) outside.
Ryuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 31 2006, 12:11 AM   #7
Becky
Coelura
 
Becky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Washington
Gender: F
Fan of: Fav character - Lunzie
Now Reading: Love reading Lanen's books too
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

It may be that it was a 'rumor' started to deter young riders from timing it too much. A very strong deterent to young riders think that you might die if you met yourself.
As for Kylara, I think her personality has a lot to do with how she reacted to watching herself. She fed off of that sort of thing, she was so vain. So how a person reacts could depend on their own personality or ego.
__________________
Becky
aka Coelura1
Becky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 31 2006, 02:52 PM   #8
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Well, considering the weakness that came over Lessa when she came out over Ruatha for the third time, with the dragons - I imagine they would logically conclude that the closer you would get to yourself, the worse it would be. Close contact could be enough to kill you.

I don't believe that Kylara actually went back to watch herself - just couldn't stop talking about wanting to.
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 31 2006, 04:13 PM   #9
Hans
Master Archivist
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern!
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

It depends indeed on how you read the two passage dealing with that. Personally I don't think Kylara only thought about it (as you and Lessa seem to think) but think she actually did it (as the first passage seems to imply).
__________________
Hans, also known as Elrhan, Master Archivist

Visit The Pern Museum & Archives for all your Pern and Anne McCaffrey News and Resources!
The Pern Museum & Archives is the home of the Pern Encyclopedia and the Pern Bloodlines.
Hans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 1 2006, 05:22 AM   #10
Dragonlover
Inactive
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Dimas
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern
Now Reading: Dragonsblood
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

thats true, i do remember that she mentioned how much of a fool she was to want to go between and look at herself, but it never mentions herself actually doing it.
Dragonlover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 1 2006, 01:43 PM   #11
Ryuu
Evil Gold Fiend Dragon
 
Ryuu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Back in the USSA
Gender: M
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonlover
thats true, i do remember that she mentioned how much of a fool she was to want to go between and look at herself, but it never mentions herself actually doing it.
No--It was other people (Lessa, F'lar & future-version-F'nor) commenting about it.
Ryuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 2 2006, 05:33 AM   #12
ChrisG
Inactive
 
ChrisG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ascension Island, South Atlantic Ocean
Gender: M
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

I always interpreted that to mean that Kylara did watch herself, quite a number of times, and I quite definitely feel that Kylara was affected by it, just that she has a different way of showing it.

As for Zist and M’ridin … until I see it happen, I’m going to consider that an old Harper’s tale.
ChrisG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 2 2006, 05:43 AM   #13
Myt
Crafter
Senior Apprentice
 
Myt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wherever is home right now.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: Something, always something...
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Hey, if M'ridin had done what his "older self" had said, what would have happened? M'ridin says something about a time paradox...
Myt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 3 2006, 05:00 AM   #14
Dragonlover
Inactive
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Dimas
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern
Now Reading: Dragonsblood
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

it is believed that if you convince someone to make something to happen that hasn't happened at all, events will become chaotic and may blow a hole in the space-time continuum.

Besides, if you had gone into the past to prevent something, and you suceed, then it never happened. Therefore you dont have the motivational force to go back in time to prevent the same event from happening, since it never happened. This could be what causes a time paradox and makes you incapable of acting upon certian wishes, as described in dragonsblood.
Dragonlover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 3 2006, 05:15 AM   #15
Spaceman Spiff
Inactive
 
Spaceman Spiff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Gender: M
Fan of: PERN!!!
Now Reading: Lord of the Rings
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

That's why Pern style travel is completely pointless, there's no control whatsoever, it's left up to fate to decide who is able to go back and who can't. There's not even a starting point. It's an endless loop of insanity
Spaceman Spiff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 3 2006, 05:40 AM   #16
Keladry
Inactive
 
Keladry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Somewhere out there
Gender: F
Fan of: Pretty Beauty!
Now Reading: something
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Insanity! Yay!
Keladry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 3 2006, 11:47 AM   #17
Chimaerrha
Inactive
 
Chimaerrha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

also in D'Blood, M'hall goes back in time to warn himself without going crazy.
Chimaerrha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 3 2006, 02:45 PM   #18
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

That made me think of something interesting, maybe for a fanfic - a dragonrider needs to warn himself, but knows he can't get too close - so he leaves a note...
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 3 2006, 03:38 PM   #19
Ryuu
Evil Gold Fiend Dragon
 
Ryuu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Back in the USSA
Gender: M
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Quote:
Under no cercumstances visit P4C-970

--O'neill
It's your writing, bronze rider...
Ryuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 3 2006, 05:39 PM   #20
Spaceman Spiff
Inactive
 
Spaceman Spiff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Gender: M
Fan of: PERN!!!
Now Reading: Lord of the Rings
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Well, I don't think the dragons have much interest in meeting the Aschen anyways
Spaceman Spiff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 5 2006, 06:35 PM   #21
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 5 2006, 06:42 PM   #22
Ryuu
Evil Gold Fiend Dragon
 
Ryuu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Back in the USSA
Gender: M
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda
Stargate SG1 reference Episode titled "2010" (I think a 5th season show)
Ryuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 16 2007, 07:43 PM   #23
LadyDeerskin
Inactive
 
LadyDeerskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: curled up in a warm spot!
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern,Talents,Shellpeople
Now Reading: All The Weyrs of Pern, The Skies of Pern
White Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

....somehow Zist managed to cope with it. If Todd wrote about it, with his mom vetting the book, then something we don't yet know about made it possible. Good question, though!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonlover View Post
In all of the 15 books written solely by anne mccaffrey, it mentions time and again that meeting yourself in time is severly weakening, if not fatal. But in both Dragon's Kin and Dragonsblood, it mentions that both masterharper Zist and Dragonrider M'ridin met themselves between, one realizing it was him, and the other not. How could this be explained without contradicting anything written? Anne makes it clear in the Introduction of Dragonsblood that she checked Todd's work closely and thoroughly.
LadyDeerskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 17 2007, 09:29 AM   #24
edith
Dragonrider


Weyrwoman
 
edith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Could it be the whole dragon thing-
Kylara went back to pre dragon times for her,
Zist wasn't a rider

but Lessa was at Ruatha 3 times, including once pre-dragon.

Moreta didn't feel strained when she went forward, just dis-orientated but then she didn't exist then at all.
edith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18 2007, 05:57 PM   #25
Ryuu
Evil Gold Fiend Dragon
 
Ryuu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Back in the USSA
Gender: M
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith View Post
Could it be the whole dragon thing-
Kylara went back to pre dragon times for her,
Zist wasn't a rider

but Lessa was at Ruatha 3 times, including once pre-dragon.

Moreta didn't feel strained when she went forward, just dis-orientated but then she didn't exist then at all.
It's my belief, too. The non-riders who accompanied Moreta to her future were likewise completely unaffected.

I also think that Moreta's disorientation was that she expected to feel the effects but didn't.
Ryuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 19 2007, 08:21 AM   #26
sjslack
Inactive
 
sjslack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Derby, England
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern
Now Reading: as usual
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Moreta's disorientation may also have come from the fact that in that futureshe went to, her dragon no longer existed. Therefore i'm assuming there would be no bond whatsoever.
sjslack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 20 2007, 01:40 PM   #27
Ryuu
Evil Gold Fiend Dragon
 
Ryuu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Back in the USSA
Gender: M
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjslack View Post
Moreta's disorientation may also have come from the fact that in that futureshe went to, her dragon no longer existed. Therefore i'm assuming there would be no bond whatsoever.
That's right! I was thinking she had gone with her own dragon to the future, but both she and her dragon would've been gone by then.
Ryuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 20 2007, 05:13 PM   #28
Chimaerrha
Inactive
 
Chimaerrha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuu View Post
That's right! I was thinking she had gone with her own dragon to the future, but both she and her dragon would've been gone by then.
She and Orlith still could've gone together to the future: they just wouldn't've heard themselves. As it is, Moreta and the others rode on wingleader B'lerion's bronze Nabeth.
Chimaerrha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 20 2007, 05:48 PM   #29
Ryuu
Evil Gold Fiend Dragon
 
Ryuu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Back in the USSA
Gender: M
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaerrha View Post
She and Orlith still could've gone together to the future: they just wouldn't've heard themselves. As it is, Moreta and the others rode on wingleader B'lerion's bronze Nabeth.
Except that her version of Orlith was left in the past to brood over the eggs.

Had her situation been the same as the other riders, Moreta knew that she should've felt some version of temporal sickness as her future version of Orlith would've had two riders: the past and future versions of Moreta existing at the same time, and this fact was part of what made her confused--the other being was that she was a dragonless rider at that moment.

In theory, Moreta could've arrived after her destined fatal jump but before Orlith suicided, and her dragon would've inexplicably experienced her rider's presence again after she had died--and Moreta would've heard that future version Orlith rejoicing that her rider was alive again.
Ryuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 9 2007, 07:33 AM   #30
Gidget2
Brainship
Courier
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
Default Re: Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

I'm of the opinion that it isn't fatal. If it was then Jaxom and Lessa (not to mention F'lar and F'nor) would clearly have been toast. Jaxom's reaction is perhaps the most severe, but it appears that the Jaxom who returns the egg isn't affected by the proximity of the correct time Jaxom. You'd think it would be reciprocal. Besides, he only feels dizzy and passes out.

Granted, we have no other evidence than short-term same-time timings (LOL). Perhaps it is more severe the longer the person shares the same time and space as their other timed self.
Gidget2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DragonDays Kath Exhibit Hall 25 Oct 16 2007 03:43 AM
The Writing on the Wall (Pern Fic) HarperBrandy Exhibit Hall 4 Aug 21 2007 10:19 AM
Collecting Highlight (19) - A Time When Cheryl Collecting Highlights Archives 11 Jun 7 2006 07:26 AM
In the dark watches of the night Kath Exhibit Hall 15 May 26 2006 01:02 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

A Meeting of Minds forum owned by Cheryl B. Miller.
All references to worlds and characters based on Anne McCaffrey’s fiction are copyright © Anne McCaffrey 1967-2008, all rights reserved, and used by permission of the author.