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Old Jun 20 2009, 01:51 AM   #1
Jedi Senshi
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Question When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

I have read both DSong and DSing many times but it never mentions When she wrote it. Menolly saw the gold's mating flight the day the new harper came and she rescued the clutch after her hand had been injured. When or where would she have the time write is as her mother was working her hard before the injury.
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Old Jun 20 2009, 05:24 AM   #2
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

It was Petiron who had sent in the song to the Masterharper, obviously before he died, so with your observation in mind, I suppose we have to assume that the song Petiron sent to Robinton was either something else or (and that's my opinion) only the first verse of the fire lizard song as it appears in Dragonsong (of which Menolly says repeatedly that the Masterharper worked on it). We only get to see the whole song in Drgonsinger.

Menolly did make a song about the fire lizard quen right after the mating fight she witnessed (but that was after Petiron's death).

Quote:
She'd a bit of trouble with the obligatory runs and found herself changing keys, but when she'd rehearsed the tune several times, she decided she liked it It sounded so different from the sort of melody Petiron had taught her, different from the traditional form. Furthermore, it sounded like a fire lizard song: sprightly, cunning, secretive.
this song is referred to later just before she tries to save the clutch of the queen:

Quote:
so the queen must have been on the top of the ledge, waiting, just waiting for Menolly to break cover.
And to think I made up a pretty tune about you, Menolly thought as she watched the two lizards hovering over the eggs. The last tune I ever made up. You're ungrateful, that's what you arel
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Old Jun 20 2009, 09:25 AM   #3
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

Wasn't it Petiron's replacement (E?) who sent the firelizard song to Robinton with a note about it being from Petiron's apprentice...He knew that Half-Circle was silent about it and I don't think he ever realized it was Menolly until after her injury. But he did find the song from Menolly in with other tunes...Seems he commented on how good it was and surprised Menolly's father/brother Alemi seemed to be sad that they had kept Menolly a secret
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Old Jun 20 2009, 02:22 PM   #4
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

His name's Elgion.

Petiron definitely did send some of Menolly's songs to the Harper Hall becase that is mentioned in Dragonsong.

Hmm, will have to (re)search the book sto see if Elgion sent any songs on that were there when he arrived. I didn't think so as nobody wanted to say anything about Menolly and her father lied to Elgion about who taught the youngsters. I think Elgion aready knew the song(s) because he said so to Alemi when Alemi (with his leg broken) was teaching Elgion to sail.
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Old Jun 20 2009, 02:56 PM   #5
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

Yes Elgion sent on a couple of songs he found hidden in the storage racks. He knew they weren't by Petiron as the composer was using a more up to date notation method.

So Menolly did write it after Petiron's burial.
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Old Jun 20 2009, 04:30 PM   #6
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by P'ter View Post
Yes Elgion sent on a couple of songs he found hidden in the storage racks. He knew they weren't by Petiron as the composer was using a more up to date notation method.

So Menolly did write it after Petiron's burial.
How would Menolly now a more up to date notation method if Petiron was the only one who taught her?
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Old Jun 20 2009, 04:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

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Originally Posted by Shalyn View Post
How would Menolly know a more up to date notation method if Petiron was the only one who taught her?
It was on the syllabus? Petiron may have taught the new notation in teaching, but been so used to his older method that he used it for his own work?

It's like units of measurement in astronomy. These days, we use/get taught SI (e.g. W) units in lectures, but most older astronomers are still stuck in the world of cgs units (eg ergs/s). Heck, I use both, depending on who I collaborate with...
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Old Jun 21 2009, 02:47 AM   #8
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

Yes, Elgion sent all the tablets he found, though I think I recall him noting that the ones he unearthed were effectively in a different hand. Petiron had sent two, one that Menolly was tricked into playing at Benden. The Fire Lizard song could not be one that petiron had sent because Menolly hadn't seen fire lizards until after Petiron's death. I don't think Anne McCaffrey actually ran time marks in her chapters in Dragonsong, though Dragonsinger occurred over the course of a single week.
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Old Jun 21 2009, 03:19 PM   #9
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath View Post
It was on the syllabus? Petiron may have taught the new notation in teaching, but been so used to his older method that he used it for his own work?

It's like units of measurement in astronomy. These days, we use/get taught SI (e.g. W) units in lectures, but most older astronomers are still stuck in the world of cgs units (eg ergs/s). Heck, I use both, depending on who I collaborate with...
I had an interesting mix-up this week thanks to cgs.
Fourier Transform Interferometry tends to use wavenumbers (1/cm) rather than wavelength (m). I had a fifteen minute conversation with a colleague worrying about getting data in the whole range he wanted to work (700-800), until I found out he was talking in nm not wavenumbers.

I always assumed it was Elgion finding Menolly's hidden stash. I guess that it was the safest place to hide it as a score would not look out of place in the teaching room while if Sella had seen it in their bedroom...
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Old Jun 22 2009, 12:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

We know that Menolly had her tunes hidden in with other tunes. Page 20 of DragonSong (Aladdin Fantasy paperback)
Quote:
Menolly could,therefore see no harm in writing down new tunes. She played them softly in the empty little hall when the children had left ,before she began her afternoon chores,carefully,hiding her notations among the Harper records in the rack of the Hall. Safe enough,for no one but herself,till the new Harper came would discover them there
Yanus heard her tuning and beat her. She went hunting greens saw the firelizard mating and wrote her tune. When she returned she had to clean the greens for "sail had been sighted" yet within days she injured her hand. would she have placed the firelizard song with the others since Elgion had arrived?
The songs Petiron sent are mentioned on page 50
Quote:
Old Petiron had sent word to the Harper that there was a likely songmaker at Half Circle,and he had included two scored melodies that had greatly impressed the MasterHarper
page 104 and 105 mention the songs Elgion sent (firelizard in this group--see above note)

Page 190 shows that the song used to trap Menolly (by Oharan and Manora) was one of the songs Petiron had sent
Quote:
These must have been done by that fosterling who took over when Petiron died. . . I'll send them on to the Harper Crafthall anyway. Robinton will want to use them. Use them?!They're that good? Alemi was startled and regretted the lies still more

Last edited by Emeraldrose; Jun 22 2009 at 12:41 PM.
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Old Jun 22 2009, 01:28 PM   #11
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

This is something I've always wondered about too.

While Menolly was teaching the children after Petiron died, she was able to write down her new songs and hide them among the official ones. The day her father caught her tuning and beat her, she saw the fire-lizard mating flight and composed a tune on the pipe (not a song). That was the day harper Elgion arrived, and she no longer had access to the Harper Room. Then she injured her hand, it was a while after that she saved the eggs from high tide, and 2 days later she was in the cave when they hatched. There's no mention of her writing a song about the rescue, and (since it was a busy couple of days according to the story) probably no chance for her to sneak into the Harper Room to get paper and pen, write the song, and hide it. Nor did she get a chance to write it at the Weyr, where harper Oharan might have found it.

Elgion was looking for Petiron's talented student mainly because of songs she'd written before his death. The Fire Lizard song was something AMC thought of later and didn't tie in with events in DragonSong.

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Old Jun 22 2009, 03:23 PM   #12
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

My edit seemed lost but I noted that the songs that were used to "trap Menolly" into revealing herself was the use of one of the songs sent to R by Petiron....In Dragonsinger pages 25-26 Robinton explains why he finished that charming song (Firelizard song) which Elgion had sent to him or
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"How else would I have got it? We couldn't find you"
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Old Jun 23 2009, 04:30 AM   #13
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

Yes, its becoming a bit more apparent that its likely an "Anne-consistancy" between dragonsong and dragonsinger about how the fire lizard song was stashed where Elgion could find it and send it to Robinton, where he could clean it up some and distribute, before Menolly even got to the Harer hall. It seems like she no longer had access to the teaching hall, records, or even materials to write the song and hide it there by the time she would have composed it.
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Old Jul 19 2009, 07:51 PM   #14
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2cent Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost8772 View Post
Yes, its becoming a bit more apparent that its likely an "Anne-consistancy" between dragonsong and dragonsinger about how the fire lizard song was stashed where Elgion could find it and send it to Robinton, where he could clean it up some and distribute, before Menolly even got to the Haper hall. It seems like she no longer had access to the teaching hall, records, or even materials to write the song and hide it there by the time she would have composed it.
It think it was the last song she composed before she hurt her hand cutting packtail. After Elgion came and found the two songs hiden with the other teaching records for the new harper to find after not getting the answers he forward them to MasterHarper, he told her brother that they were 'cracking good', that was after he broken his leg, and they had for a frendship.

By the time of Dragonsong Dragonsinger her music was what folks wanted to hear and sing. For that is what the Harper Hall needed, along with trying to find the lost apprentice.

Along with show it to her brother who broke his leg, after after she left the hold, for he found out it was her who did the teaching of Hold's young.
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Old Jul 25 2009, 04:27 PM   #15
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

In Dragonsong US paperback Bantum edition May 1977 page 139

T'gellan asked Menolly about the old firelizard queen. "D'you happen to remember when you saw her mating flight."

"Yes, I do. Because we had Threadfall just after. The one where the leading edge hit the marshes halfway to Nerat."

When T'gellan asked when her firelizards hatched. She said "I lost track of my sevendays, but they hatched five Falls ago."

The mating flight took place before Elgion arrived. Menolly cut her hand about three days after Elgion arrived. It doesn't say how long it took for her to recover from the Packtail infection or how long before she saw the firelizard queen trying to save her eggs by putting them into a cave.

This means she wrote the firelizard song after Elgion had arrived. The new songs were not sent on until after Menolly had run away two days after she transferred the eggs to the cave.
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Old Jul 30 2009, 01:45 PM   #16
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

The Firelizard Song was about rescuing the eggs from the tide, which happened barely 2 days before she ran away from the Hold. She went to bed early that night, and she was kept very busy working in the Hold next day, and left very early next morning.

Theoretically she could have written the song either of those 2 evenings, but where? She shared a cubicle in the girls' dormitory with her sister, so it wasn't exactly private (and she was expecting her mother to come and look for her after she ran out on the evening's entertainment the final night, so she slept in an unused inner room). And I doubt if pens, ink and whole sheets of prepared hide were left lying around where anyone could use them. I suppose she could have composed the whole song in her head and sneaked into the Harper's quarters during the entertainment and written it down quickly, but this would surely have been mentioned in the text if Anne had thought of it before she wrote DragonSinger.

Definitely an "Anne-consistancy"!

Christine.
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Old Mar 22 2010, 11:15 PM   #17
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

Okay, so this is an old thread, but I got redirected here from a NEW thread at the KT, so here goes.

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Originally Posted by Eriflor View Post
The Firelizard Song was about rescuing the eggs from the tide, which happened barely 2 days before she ran away from the Hold. She went to bed early that night, and she was kept very busy working in the Hold next day, and left very early next morning.

Theoretically she could have written the song either of those 2 evenings, but where? She shared a cubicle in the girls' dormitory with her sister, so it wasn't exactly private (and she was expecting her mother to come and look for her after she ran out on the evening's entertainment the final night, so she slept in an unused inner room). And I doubt if pens, ink and whole sheets of prepared hide were left lying around where anyone could use them. I suppose she could have composed the whole song in her head and sneaked into the Harper's quarters during the entertainment and written it down quickly, but this would surely have been mentioned in the text if Anne had thought of it before she wrote DragonSinger.

Definitely an "Anne-consistancy"!

Christine.
Actually, when you go back and read it, she had about a week to sneak into the school room and jot the tune down, which she probably would have tried since she was trying to find out if she taught well anyway. There's the day of her being forbidden to teach anymore, which is also the same day she saw the fire lizards and the same day Elgion arrives (busy day). Beginning on page 36 of my Bantam paperback edition, there is a recitation of days, the next being Threadfall, which she spends with the ground crew and then getting ready for night fishing. Day three is spent salting the catch from the night before. Day four is net mending. Day five is laundry day. It isn't until day six, nearly a week later, that she cuts her hand. She spends a lot of time trying to figure out why her parents are such jerks, but there is no mention of writing a song.

There is, however, at least one mention of her going off to a dark corner to avoid attention, so she still could have snuck off. It's never stated explicitly that she wrote the song during that time, but in an earlier passage, she starts a "little whistle composed of her excitement and her response to the day's lovely event" of seeing Mnementh up close, an event which made "all the songs about dragonriders and dragons [seem] inadiquite to Menolly" (page 15). This could easily be the nucleus of what she composes later for the fire lizardsShe also had a habit of "writing down new tunes" and "carefully hiding her notations among the Harper records of the rack of the Hall" which she may have had easy access to if it's a public space (pg 18). Therefore a quick alteration to the notations or the additions of some lyrics to an already started tune (her dragon song) when she has a spare moment is not impossible, especially since she spends quite a bit of time alone in her cubicle after her second encounter with the firelizards, excited not only about the rescue but also that she is still able to compose using reed pipes (pg 60). Even the addition of new lyrics in the two days between rescuing the clutch and running away is possible in this case, given that the day she ran away she left before anyone else in the hold was even awake (pg 63).

She has time, motivation and even possible access to materials since the records in the Hall would in all likelihood be in a public space. Though it is never outright stated that she writes the song in that time, it is clear that she would definitely have been able to, that Elgion could have found it, and that Robinton could have received it during the inexact amount of time she is missing (a few weeks? It says five threadfalls, but how often do they fall in a given area? It reads like at least a couple months, though). So the firelizard song's popularity is not necessarily another Anne-consistancy.

Just that it probably is. Oh well.
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Old Mar 23 2010, 02:00 AM   #18
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2cent Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

Yes, after she cut her hand she was out for greens and spiderclaws, She saved the clutch when the tide was so high, she told the dock mater about the high water tides, one her way back to the hold.

She was stiff and hurt from her fall, and felt the cut from the queen's claws when she help her. Book is not to hand.
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Old Mar 23 2010, 11:11 AM   #19
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

Proserpine, you missed an important one:

When Menolly first sees the fire lizards, when she sees their mating flight, she whips out her knife and cuts some reeds and makes a rough pipe then and there, and starts making up a bright little tune to try and express her excitement and what she just saw. I always figured she wrote that tune down at some point, and jotted down some lyrics after she helped save the eggs.
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Old Mar 23 2010, 08:51 PM   #20
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

I didn't miss that, Brenda, I just didn't feel it was necessary to bring it up again as it is mentioned in another post. I also didn't think it was too much of a stretch of the imagination to hypothesize that the two tunes are related in terms of melody or rhythm since they deal with similar subjects: her own excitement and an encounter with draconic kind.
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Old Mar 24 2010, 12:22 AM   #21
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

Okay, I just found it odd to have left that out when you were listing the sequence of events!
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Old Mar 24 2010, 01:41 PM   #22
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Default Re: When did Menolly write the Firelizard song.

There's really only one window of opportunity --- the night before she left the Seahold forever. She'd helped the FL queen save the eggs the day before, had an early night, and then had the song and a tune percolating in her head for 24 hours. When she ran out on the entertainment, she took her furs to the empty room, couldn't sleep for the music in her head, and went to the harper rooms to write it down and hide it. It's not mentioned because Anne hadn't thought of it yet.

Kind of a pity Anne doesn't have these little slips corrected in newer editions of her books, but then what would we have to debate about?

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