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Old Jan 20 2013, 08:14 PM   #1
Dannette
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Question What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

As I recall, after the Prideth/Wirenth fight, Kylara was decsribed as being "witless" (Haven't got the books to hand, so this is from memory.) After that, we hear nothing, so I was just wondering what might have happened to her? Was she given back to family to care for? Was she exposed, or allowed to starve to death, or overdosed with fellis? I suppose there's no real way of knowing, but it's an interesting thought.

What about other Pernese who'se minds become so badly damaged they would not survive without care? Does the Healer Hall have any sort of sanitorium where they try and re-teach the unfortunates basic skills like eating unassissted so they can at least function minimally? Or would euthanasia be seen as kinder (and easier for whoever is feeding them and looking after them.) From the Dragonsinger series, it seems the Uncles and Aunties are looked after, but even they seem to be able to function enough to vcope, and sometimes be useful (babysitting ETC).

And what about dementia, not early onset, but just due to aging so much their brain starts to deteriorate? (I do not include general mental illness because as I recalled, all potential colonists were screened for anything in their genes that could cause issues.)

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Old Jan 20 2013, 10:23 PM   #2
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

Regardless of pre-settlement screening, after over 2000 turns on Pern, there could have been numerous forms of genetic damage, as mutations happen all the time. And not all forms of mental aberration are caused by faulty DNA, but also by abusive or misinformed upbringing.

The Pernese don't generally euthanize the mentally unfit, but train them to work in whatever positions they can (generally fairly menial, like Camo). They try to keep dragonless riders from suiciding immediately after their dragon's death, but allow it if they remain determined to die. Sometimes dragonless riders just "fade away", refusing to eat or drink --- the modern Pernese (pre-AIVAS) don't have the technology to keep the comatose alive, and probably wouldn't try to force-feed anybody, as has sometimes been done with people on hunger-strike.

I suspect some of those uneducated hill-people might have been willing to help the odd infant to die, though, if it looked unlikely to survive. And probably attitudes in general varied quite a bit from one Pass/Interval to the next.

But as you said, there's no real way of knowing what happened to Kylara --- whether she was sent home to Telgar with her old nurse to look after her, or kept tucked away somewhere at High Reaches Weyr until she died.

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Old Jan 21 2013, 02:14 AM   #3
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

In Dragon Singer one of the old aunties had a memory of a net. So she would not remember Menoly (SP) going out to hunt cress (I think) every day. In same book Old Uncle was taken care of, even tho he did not have legs and had to be carried everywhere.

Which tells me they give the old jobs they can do. I would think they would do that with everyone. Even a very only or one with little mind can stir soup.
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Old Jan 21 2013, 03:12 AM   #4
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

People of Pern says that she was taken to Fort Weyr and housed in a small cavern where Rannelly would tend to her. Nothing else is mentioned of her after that though...do you suppose she's still alive by the time of Skies of Pern?
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Old Jan 21 2013, 04:27 AM   #5
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

I forget where I read it, not "People of Pern", but I did read that Kylara was being taken care of by her old nurse.
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Old Jan 21 2013, 09:17 PM   #6
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

This was my take on it.
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Old Jan 21 2013, 10:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

Very nice Brenda. I wasnt sure if Kylara's fire lizard was a bronze or gold.
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Old Jan 22 2013, 04:59 PM   #8
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

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Very nice Brenda. I wasnt sure if Kylara's fire lizard was a bronze or gold.
Brenda - A nice little story there, well done!

As I recall, Meron and Kylara got hold of a clutch of fire lizard eggs and when the queen lizard hatched, Meron went to grab for it but Kylara knocjed his hand away saying something along the lines of " a queen for me and a bronze for you." And then when they had the requisite lizards, left the rest of the clutch to tear each other to pieces (am assuming the survivor(s) went out of the Hold to find food so returned to the wild.)

Lily, Almaron, - Wherever she went, I imagine Ranelly would follow, she seemed to dote on Kylara. And Almaron, her survival till SoP might depend on whether she still has the will to live, or whether she's so far gone that she'd unaware of her loss so she'll live till her body gives up. Also, does she staty in bed or is she mobile, for as I recall, people who spend long amounts of time lying down (due to illness ETC) are more susceptible to respiratory conditions (like pneumonia).

Mawra, Eriflor - yesm you're right, athough all those memtioned can carry out simple tasks, but I also wonder abot the near-catatonic, who can eat and excrete but not anything else, and yes, mental illness can be comlcated, as many perople with clinical depression and bipolar disorder (I know several people with one or the other) can be functional when well, but totally unfunctional when they go down (and/or, in the case of bipolar, high).
As many artists and musicxioans have exhibited signs of mental illness, in some cases I imagine they are looked after when unwell and encouraged to recover - although some of the deoressed/bipolar people I know have written amazing poetry when ill. And with people like that, it might be seen as part of their artistic teperament, or a 'curse' that balances out their gift.

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Old Jan 23 2013, 04:35 PM   #9
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

Fanon that's spread through a lot of games over the years says that one of Healer Hall's remaining specialties is mind-healing. It's not really clear to me what a Healer Hall mind-healer could accomplish for someone with severe mental illness, but presumably there's sedation if Kylara is considered to be a danger to herself. Lithium is probably accessible.

As mentioned, if she's bedridden there's danger from bed sores and other illnesses caused by inability to care for herself but as a member of the blood, she has a leg up in that presumably her family pays for round-the-clock care.

In a way, it's too bad that Kylara is written out the way she is with no recovery. A recovered Kylara would have made a very compelling villain, I think.
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Old Jan 23 2013, 07:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

What is fanon? A fan fiction thing? A story about what happened to Kylara could be interesting. Specially if her gold lizard stayed with her, and the degree of witlessness she suffered.
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Old Jan 23 2013, 09:19 PM   #11
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

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What is fanon? A fan fiction thing? A story about what happened to Kylara could be interesting. Specially if her gold lizard stayed with her, and the degree of witlessness she suffered.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fanon

(The term predates TV Tropes; it's just a good place to see a definition.)

IIRC Shalyn wrote a fic that includes some of what became of Kylara. I think using her as an example of Pernese care of the mentally ill is tricky because Kylara is NOT mentally ill in any way that compares to a human mental illness. She had the telepathic bond with her dragon violently severed. We see at least five examples of reactions to this (discounting all of Todd's as they're inconsistent with Anne's): Kylara apparently reverts to "the mind of a child", Brekke spends days in a catatonic fugue and is never 100% 'normal' again, Lytol spends pretty much the rest of his life with varying degrees of PTSD and depression, and T'kul and whatsishame in Renegades display acute and chronic violent tendencies, T'kul's a more instant psychotic break, the other guy more like a reasonably-functional psychopath. None of them developed mental illness organically, they suffered some sort of psychic trauma for which there's no real-world equivalent. Brekke seems the least-damaged, and she's the one with a half-replacement--she can still hear dragons. None of the other ex-riders can.
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Old Jan 24 2013, 07:47 AM   #12
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

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[url]IIRC Shalyn wrote a fic that includes some of what became of Kylara.
I thought I posted it here, but maybe not. It's on ff.net

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4792107/1/The-Guilt-of-Forever

One thing they do say about Kylara is that she has the mind of a child. Or was it babe? but there are different levels of child-like-ness, so she could very well be functioning, just not well.

As for Ranelly - woman was old in DQ. She had to die at some point leaving Kylara 'alone'.
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Old Jan 25 2013, 09:48 AM   #13
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

With Kylara. not only has she lost her dragon, which would be bad enough, she also lives knowing it is her fault her dragon died. The guilt would make it worse for her.
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Old Jan 25 2013, 05:33 PM   #14
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

Quite strong work, Shalyn. I am a little antsy about the degree to which it absolves Kylara of wrongdoing in the Queens' battle, which I tend to read more mutual than not. However, I really enjoyed how this addresses Brekke's relationship with Wirenth - the idea that she wouldn't have agreed to being flown by Canth seems both accurate to canon and fairly radical. It's unclear to me if her final discussion with her queen is meant to have been a true vision - ie, Brekke being powerful enough to project beyond Between, or if it's meant to be something conjured up by the fracture of her mind. I like that it's left a bit vague.

In any event, this fic does an awesome job of restoring agency to Brekke, really plumbing into the depths of her HAD, and making the horrid events of Dragonquest directly driven by her rather than things that occur to her. I wish those aspects of this story were canon - Brekke would be a much more interesting, tragic heroine if so.

Regarding Kylara, I don't remember the character having explicitly been mentioned as an abuse survivor, but it fits well with her pattern of behavior in the books - both seeking too much 'love' in all the wrong places and her anger and rage when she senses she's being thrown aside. Adding that background makes the idea that Kylara fractured into two personas - one a child!Kylara and the other her broken adult self, really fits well with what psychologists believe about MPD and really worked for me.
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Old Jan 26 2013, 03:43 PM   #15
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

Lytol returned to the Weavercraft, married, and raised a daughter (or possibly this marriage dates back to his brownrider period). After losing his wife and daughter, he continued as a weaver, was appointed as Lord Warder till Lord Jaxom was confirmed (at least 16 turns), then became a leading researcher in the AIVAS project.

PTSD or depression notwithstanding, a pretty successful record.

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Old Jan 26 2013, 07:34 PM   #16
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

Certainly. L'tol's also mentioned as an exception to the rule. (Though certainly it appears that many riders choose suicide.)

I think the daughter has to post-date his riding, unless he already had his journeyman's knots when he Impressed. Either would be a very odd occurrence, I think, and it's interesting we hear nothing of the surviving daughter in canon. One would think with her mother and sisters dead, that she'd have been fostered within Ruatha to be close to her surviving family.
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Old Jan 26 2013, 09:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

IIRC, there's a line in Red Star Rising where it mentions that women generally are able to cope with the loss of a dragon better than men because they can have children or something? Also, when discussing Ruth in Dragonquest and expecting he will die, Lytol mentions that he wants to keep Jaxom at Ruatha where "obligations and responsibilities" will give him a hold on life. The trauma of being dragonless is caused by the constant awareness of what's been lost, so it would make sense that anything that could distract you would help. Dunno if a fire-lizard would help or not, as it could just remind you of the loss.

With regards to Kylara, I just looked up her entry in the People of Pern, and it states that she was more bound to Prideth than she realised - I seem to remember a line in Dragonquest shortly before she finds F'nor and Brekke that supports this - and the force of losing her "broke" her mind.
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Old Jan 27 2013, 03:40 PM   #18
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IIRC, <snip> Dunno if a fire-lizard would help or not, as it could just remind you of the loss.

With regards to Kylara, I just looked up her entry in the People of Pern, and it states that she was more bound to Prideth than she realised - I seem to remember a line in Dragonquest shortly before she finds F'nor and Brekke that supports this - and the force of losing her "broke" her mind.
If there were fire lizards around they would also help but at the time of Dragonseye/Red Star Rising, they were none to be found. my two bits
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Old Jan 27 2013, 10:11 PM   #19
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

I do racall, in one of the books (don't remember which, perhaps The White Dragon?) that Jaxom was annoyed that Lytol had refused two fire-lizard eggs offered, feeling that he, as the Lord-in-waiting, should have had one.

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Old Jan 28 2013, 11:52 AM   #20
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

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Quite strong work, Shalyn. I am a little antsy about the degree to which it absolves Kylara of wrongdoing in the Queens' battle, which I tend to read more mutual than not.
Well, this is where a lot of people disagree. My feelings were that the only thing Kylara was doing wrong was having sexual relations with a Lord Holder that no one liked. And even that's not wrong, just frowned upon. Brekke, on the other hand, was admittedly fighting the fact that she would have to have sex with whoever won the flight. The two dragons were in the wrong place at the wrong time, through no fault of Kylara or Brekke. I mean - Nabol is definitely far enough away that it shouldn't have mattered.

Quote:
However, I really enjoyed how this addresses Brekke's relationship with Wirenth - the idea that she wouldn't have agreed to being flown by Canth seems both accurate to canon and fairly radical. It's unclear to me if her final discussion with her queen is meant to have been a true vision - ie, Brekke being powerful enough to project beyond Between, or if it's meant to be something conjured up by the fracture of her mind. I like that it's left a bit vague.
Thank you. And we'll never know, will we?

Quote:
In any event, this fic does an awesome job of restoring agency to Brekke, really plumbing into the depths of her HAD, and making the horrid events of Dragonquest directly driven by her rather than things that occur to her. I wish those aspects of this story were canon - Brekke would be a much more interesting, tragic heroine if so.
Thank you. Several people have told me that they like Brekke in my take on it.

Quote:
Regarding Kylara, I don't remember the character having explicitly been mentioned as an abuse survivor, but it fits well with her pattern of behavior in the books - both seeking too much 'love' in all the wrong places and her anger and rage when she senses she's being thrown aside. Adding that background makes the idea that Kylara fractured into two personas - one a child!Kylara and the other her broken adult self, really fits well with what psychologists believe about MPD and really worked for me.
Really, nothing about Kylara's or Brekke's backgrounds were ever discussed - except that Kylara was a Lord Holder's daughter and Brekke was in the Farmcraft. Otherwise, it's all speculation, so I speculated a lot. But it did fit.
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Old Jan 28 2013, 07:30 PM   #21
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

How far away does a queen need to go when a queen rises?

How far does a mating flight go from the weyr?

I got the feeling Nabol is not that far from the weyr and Kylara's queen was close to rising her self. So for Kylara to be messing around with the Lord Holder at that time and was ignoring her queen's emotions places blame on her.
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Old Jan 28 2013, 08:08 PM   #22
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

As I remember, when Kylara was in Southern, time shifted, she spent a lot of time watching herself grow up. With the psychic sensitivity of Dragonriders, it was thought this helped to warp her mind.
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Old Jan 28 2013, 10:25 PM   #23
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

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I got the feeling Nabol is not that far from the weyr and Kylara's queen was close to rising her self. So for Kylara to be messing around with the Lord Holder at that time and was ignoring her queen's emotions places blame on her.
Yes, doesn't the green watchrider at Nabol mention that she was neglecting Prideth by doing that?
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Old Jan 29 2013, 08:31 AM   #24
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

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How far away does a queen need to go when a queen rises?

How far does a mating flight go from the weyr?

I got the feeling Nabol is not that far from the weyr and Kylara's queen was close to rising her self. So for Kylara to be messing around with the Lord Holder at that time and was ignoring her queen's emotions places blame on her.
It looks like a mating flight can take hours. Nabol is in the next time zone over from High Reaches, from what I can tell on the maps. The distance seems to be about the width of Colorado. Now, I could be wrong. But it's still a hike. Don't know how fast dragons fly, though.

So - in theory Nabol seems to be far enough away. Also, the chances that Wirenth would fly in that direction...at least a 1 in 4 chance, if you just use N/S/E/W.

As for Kylara abusing her dragon - does this mean she shouldn't have been having sex at all? Then by this definition, any weyrwoman having sex when her dragon's nearing rising is abuse. Now, he could mean that when Prideth saw Wirenth, Kylara should have taken note of her dragon. That makes sense. But it's possible that, because she was in the middle of having sex, she thought her extra feelings of lust were caused by that, not by a queen flight. *shrugs* I honestly don't think she purposely abused Prideth. I think it was all wrong place/wrong circumstances/wrong time.

Also, I firmly believe that this is why her mind broke. She was experiencing one strong emotion, then that strong emotion was intensified, then suddenly - loss.
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Old Jan 29 2013, 01:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

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How far away does a queen need to go when a queen rises?

How far does a mating flight go from the weyr?

I got the feeling Nabol is not that far from the weyr and Kylara's queen was close to rising her self. So for Kylara to be messing around with the Lord Holder at that time and was ignoring her queen's emotions places blame on her.
Pilgra (an older, OldTimer experienced Weyrwoman) flat out says to Brekke that it's LUCKY Kylara has gone to Nabol as Prideth's close to rising. It's far enough away under normal circumstances and just bad luck Wirenth chose to fly that direction. Kylara gets blamed because she WAS having sex, and because people didn't like her, and people liked Brekke (ie F'lar's brother was sleeping with her, ergo she was special. Let's not beat around the bush there and pretend it's anything but Brekke was liked by the people who count, Kylara wasn't, and originally Kylara wasn't solely because Lessa found her threatening and wanted to get rid of her somehow.)
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Old Jan 29 2013, 08:04 PM   #26
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Default Re: What happened to Kylara after she became witless?

Holds are also supposed to be far enough away for the common folk not to be overflown by mating flights. Unfortunately, the books themselves undermine that idea - no way is Fort Hold not close enough to Fort Weyr that they escape splashback from rising queens. Not if you can walk from one to the other in a couple of hours.
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