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Old Jul 14 2005, 04:43 AM   #1
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Default Whers...

I wanna know basic of whers that we know about.

I'm a curious person. Whers seems to be mysterious creatures.

I know who created them. I know they are cousins to the firelizards and the Dragons. but that's all I mainly know about.
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Old Jul 14 2005, 05:20 AM   #2
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Have you read Dragon's kin? there's alot in there,
and theres a chunk in Moreta!
Any help?
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Old Jul 14 2005, 03:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
Have you read Dragon's kin? there's alot in there,
and theres a chunk in Moreta!
Any help?
edi
I don't have all the time I got under Alaskan sun. I don't have time to shift through all of that!
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Old Jul 14 2005, 05:40 PM   #4
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Default Re: Whers...

one thing i noticed, was that i think in either dF or MDLoP, the wher doesn't have a name that ends in -sk.
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Old Jul 15 2005, 05:24 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devcca
I don't have all the time I got under Alaskan sun. I don't have time to shift through all of that!
I don't have DK but I'll do a bit from Moreta for you- prob not today tho- got chocolate brownies to make!
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Old Jul 15 2005, 09:00 AM   #6
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I'm going to the lib today, so i can get dk.
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Old Jul 15 2005, 09:25 AM   #7
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Quote:
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one thing i noticed, was that i think in either dF or MDLoP, the wher doesn't have a name that ends in -sk.
That's because the two books by Todd McA completely disregard anything that was previously know about whers. Mind you, not much was known about them before DB & DK, but I liked them better as a mystery than the farce (my opinion) that Todd made of them.
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Old Jul 15 2005, 09:03 PM   #8
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*snort* Todd pretty much disregards everything, including logic.
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Old Jul 16 2005, 04:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth
*snort* Todd pretty much disregards everything, including logic.
LOL
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Old Jul 16 2005, 05:52 AM   #10
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*snort* Todd pretty much disregards everything, including logic.
Can you explain?
I can't find any of his books right now.
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Old Jul 16 2005, 04:13 PM   #11
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Default Re: Whers...



Was looking for an "applause" smilie, but I guess the above makes the point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter
That's because the two books by Todd McA completely disregard anything that was previously know about whers. Mind you, not much was known about them before DB & DK, but I liked them better as a mystery than the farce (my opinion) that Todd made of them.
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Old Jul 16 2005, 08:25 PM   #12
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Check out any thread here or at NKT about Dragonsblood.
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Old Jul 29 2005, 07:24 AM   #13
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Default Re: Whers...

saw dragon's blood in store the other day - does Todd deviate a lot from Anne in writing style, viewing of pern, and other factors?

What do you guys/pros think?
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Old Jul 29 2005, 07:38 AM   #14
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The main problem I have with DB is the story. The style is ok and in bits, actually good... but in my opinion he ruins it with unnecessary side-plots and annoying inaccuracies about Pern from the previous books. And he tries to rewrite Pernese history.
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Old Aug 24 2005, 03:44 AM   #15
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How badly do you see these continuity errors affecting your desire to continue reading Pern after Anne retires from it? Will you be sticking just to her work, reading Todd with reservations, or what? (Curious, as always )
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Old Aug 24 2005, 10:53 AM   #16
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I may b**** about nitpicks afterwards, but I'll probably always keep reading Todd's or whoever else's Pern books, as long as they don't turn totally unrecognizable.
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Old Aug 24 2005, 05:18 PM   #17
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How important, then, are the romantic elements of Anne's writing, especially in the characterisation and plotting of the Pern books? Given that Todd isn't Anne, and doesn't convey the same concerns and processes in his writing, how much will missing this affect your enjoyment of her fiction?
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Old Aug 26 2005, 02:14 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghyle
How important, then, are the romantic elements of Anne's writing, especially in the characterisation and plotting of the Pern books? Given that Todd isn't Anne, and doesn't convey the same concerns and processes in his writing, how much will missing this affect your enjoyment of her fiction?
Interesting question. Todd utterly fails here where Anne succeeds. Some may not view it this way, thinking that Anne doesn't succeed there either. And even though looking realistically at it, some of her romantic situations may seem soppy and corny, but the way she writes it makes it work for me.

It seems as if the romance bit was crammed into Todd's story just for tradition's sake. It came off awkward, vague and uncomfortable. But I'll still read it, even if it does miss out some of those qualities that made me enjoy Anne's Pern so much.
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Old Aug 26 2005, 02:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
Some may not view it this way, thinking that Anne doesn't succeed there either. And even though looking realistically at it, some of her romantic situations may seem soppy and corny, but the way she writes it makes it work for me.
How much of this do you feel is an artifact of her circumstances, growing up in a certain climate, with a certain worldview towards romance and explicitness in texts? The romantic factor, then, would have dated to some degree, and would seem coy or artificial by contemporary factors.

To what extent are we conditioned to see romance as other to speculative fiction, and how do we see this in Todd's writing?
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Old Aug 27 2005, 10:59 PM   #20
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Anne's romantic situations don't generally work for me. They're usually very predictable and show clearly that her other genre is romance, featuring all the stock romance cliches like "shrew tamed by he-man," "date rape is good for the repressed", "subtextual lesbian slain by hero to save damsel", "powerful woman deseperate to be dominated by man", etc. Once in a while she hits a homer, like Debera and Iantine's refreshingly awkward relationship, but mostly, it's preprorgrammed shlock a la Harlequin.

At least, though, she put some thought into it. Todd's are depressingly mechanical, but I attribute that to bigger problems; that is, his characterization as a whole is badly done. He's very plot driven. He's like Timothy Zahn with less talent at making the situations interesting in spite of borderline trite characterizations. (Well, Todd doesn't just border. He dives right in to trite. Or cliched. Lorana makes me gag and want to see her die in painful ways. Kindan of DB is a moron. The other characters are cardboard cutouts.)

Frankly, the more I read around, the less I enjoy any of the books Anne writes alone (with the notable exception of "The Ship Who Sang", "Dragonflight", and "Moreta", the last being the LEAST romance-novel-cliche-filled Pern book), and I have never reread Dragon's Kin or Dragonsblood. In fact I never bothered to buy Dragonsblood, it left me so cold. If the next one doesn't show dramatic improvement, and/or they don't open the franchise to other writers, I may just quit and stick to roleplay, for which Pern is particularly well-suited.
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Old Aug 28 2005, 01:51 AM   #21
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It's really a pity that Anne and Todd didn't start collaborating earlier. On paper at least the combination of Anne's character-driven story lines (which sometimes end up in illogical corners because she doesn't worry how things that temporarily look good on a character affect the whole story) and Todd's plotting should make a good story. I haven't read Dragon's Kin yet, but it seems from what others have said that their writing styles clash rather than complement each other, and that's sad.
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Old Aug 28 2005, 03:30 AM   #22
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For my own part, I like to reread Anne's work, especially Pern, but I just don't get that with either book Todd was involved with. This is not saying he's a bad writer, it's saying that I don't care enough about the characters or plot that I would want to reread them.

Which affects, perhaps, what I feel about his treatmen of the whers. I'm just not interested enough to get het up about his changes, and their potential effects on Pern as a whole.

At least the crossover of romance and science fiction is distinctive enough to be enjoyable to myself.
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Old Aug 28 2005, 04:35 PM   #23
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Having read Dragon's Kin and DB, I suspect Todd did the majority of actual writing in DK--particularly things like the rushed, tie-up-all-the-ends happy endings both books have, which come across as particularly trite and stagey. If the other stuff he's written, which I've never seen, is military SF, that might explain some of the characterization issues.

The business about the whers just annoys me, and I run one of the many clubs who decided to ignore it completely in our canon. It's as if he either didn't read what came before, or just figured he didn't care. The Bantam-era Star Wars novels have better continuity than DK and DB, and their continuity is utter crap.
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Old Aug 28 2005, 06:16 PM   #24
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Was blood, then, a more positive reason for the decision to pass Pern to Todd, than any inherent sympatico with the setting and style? That is, is the fact that he was her son, and a writer, a more likely reason than any other that he was chosen?

Would there have been less continuity problems if he had set his work after the ninth pass?
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Old Aug 28 2005, 08:19 PM   #25
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Given what he did? God knows. He had plenty of stuff set before his books that he ignored, so chances are he'd ignore what happened in the 9th Pass, too.

I think blood had EVERYTHING to do with it. Otherwise, there are a hundred other writers who could do a better job, and you could chose them by randomly drawing names. There are fan writers who do better Pern.
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Old Aug 28 2005, 09:40 PM   #26
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I haven't been able to rouse enough interest to get myself to read Dragonsblood yet, given what I heard about it in advance of publication coupled with the changes to whers as Anne wrote them (yes much was mysterious, but you can glean quite a lot from the little she wrote and Dragon's Kin is quite contradictory to most of it). I will read it someday (I do own a copy -- two in fact), but that day hasn't come yet.

In my mind there is a definite distinction between Anne's canon and Todd's canon, and (in my dream world with 40 hour days to devote to website development) I hope to someday devote part of Sariel's Guide to Pern to keeping track of the differences in Anne canon and Todd canon.

Certainly blood has everything to do with Anne passing the Pern torch to Todd. If he wasn't interested/able to write in Pern, it would end with her, despite there being many other writers who could do a bang-up job with it. But since it's Anne's creation to do with as she sees fit, I have no problem with her decision - I just may not be very eager to read Todd's continuance of the series.
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Old Aug 29 2005, 02:40 AM   #27
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I'll read but I might not read twice. I havent read db yet... from what I heard here I'm dreading it but I've read dk, can't remember too much (not good if I can't a good book I can) but it seemed aimed at the same sorta audience as Harper hall.
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Old Aug 29 2005, 02:47 AM   #28
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I agree that we can make that distinction between the two bodies of work, and I feel that it's a valid one to make. I suppose what helps define an Anne fan is the willingness to discount Todd's contributions, to see them as non-canonical, in comparison to her work.

One thought: since it is still common to associate goodness with beauty, the low value placed on the whers in Pernese society seems to me a reflection upon their ugliness, rather than any lack of real virtue. So that, if this has been the case almost universally, from creation to the 9th pass, then the rehabilitation of them in the earlier period reads more falsely as a result. And this rehabilitation is a major stumbling block in our appreciation of Todd's abilities as a Pernese writer, no?
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Old Aug 29 2005, 07:36 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granath
It's really a pity that Anne and Todd didn't start collaborating earlier. On paper at least the combination of Anne's character-driven story lines (which sometimes end up in illogical corners because she doesn't worry how things that temporarily look good on a character affect the whole story) and Todd's plotting should make a good story. I haven't read Dragon's Kin yet, but it seems from what others have said that their writing styles clash rather than complement each other, and that's sad.
I am actually VERY thankful they didn't start working together earlier. At least that way we got some decent, enjoyable Pern books straight from Anne. Given that DK was only mediochre or less working WITH Anne, and DB was just plain awful without the collaboration, I'm glad Todd didn't taint the series earlier. I just REALLY hope he shapes up and sees what he's doing wrong. I don't like bashing Todd, I had the highest hopes for DB, and I devoutly hope he comes out with some GOOD stories and characterization. But from what I've seen so far, it's not that great...

I wonder how Anne's daughter (I forget her name) would do with writing Pern? I think she's authorized to write in Pern too... but if I had my pick of anyone to continue the Pern series - I've said it before and I'll say it again - it would be Faye Upton. She did a WONDERFUL job with Dragonchoice, something really enjoyable and I'll be able to reread it over and over. I have yet to read DCII but I'll bet it's fantastic I'd love to see how she writes whers.
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Old Aug 29 2005, 10:54 AM   #30
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Not to give spoilers, but Dragonchoice II is quite a bit darker than the first one. Still a breathtaking read.
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Old Aug 29 2005, 03:47 PM   #31
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Well, to be honest with you I found Skies rather a mess too, sadly. Oh, well, at least I can enjoy the older stories.
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Old Aug 29 2005, 04:07 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
I wonder how Anne's daughter (I forget her name) would do with writing Pern? I think she's authorized to write in Pern too...
I think you're right, though I haven't heard that Georganne Kennedy (Gigi for short) has any actual interest in writing Pern. Gigi does write - she's written two short stories which Anne edited for her, and a novel that I think is published in German (Hans can correct me on that if I'm wrong). I enjoyed them both, though the second didn't have a strong plot. I think I would enjoy her writing style better if she did write in Pern, but again I'm not sure she has the interest.
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Old Aug 29 2005, 06:05 PM   #33
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I've not read Dragonchoice. May I have some more information upon its availability, etc.?
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Old Aug 29 2005, 07:53 PM   #34
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It's all at http://www.dragonchoice.com

Well, Dragonchoice II is not up yet, as Faye's still waiting on the illustrators for some artwork.

Basically, it's Pern written with some nerve and a minimum of angst-ridden cliches. And some very nice illustrations.
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Old Aug 29 2005, 08:21 PM   #35
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It would be so nice for them to open Pern up to other writers - like a Friends of Darkover or Friends of Valdemar. Have a Friends of Pern.

I suspect that Anne may actually realize that she stumbled upon a good hook, and that's all that got her published in her later works. And she's afraid of being shown up by others.
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Old Aug 30 2005, 03:16 AM   #36
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Thank you, Anareth. It looks interesting. I shall have a fun read later on.

Shalyn: what about a McCaffrey Society? Covers all bases.
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Old Aug 30 2005, 03:29 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda
Not to give spoilers, but Dragonchoice II is quite a bit darker than the first one. Still a breathtaking read.
Not a spoiler at all, it may just motivate me to start reading sooner! Hehe, being a contributer has it's perks on being able to read it sooner
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Old Aug 30 2005, 03:36 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
Not a spoiler at all, it may just motivate me to start reading sooner! Hehe, being a contributer has it's perks on being able to read it sooner
Sounds mighty spiffy to me, mate!
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Old Nov 10 2005, 10:38 PM   #39
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Ok, back on the topic of watch-whers... I'm planning on writing a short story focusing on whers (and it will most certainly exclude the cutesyness, flying because of dense air at night, betweening, names ending in -sk and eating Thread!) but I'm stuck on a few details. I know it's described some of this in DK, but I forget... where in Holds do watch-whers clutch? I can't think of where they'd have sufficuently hot sands in a Hold.

Do they ever keep whers in a Weyr? If so, for what reasons, and where would they keep it? And when they clutched, would they go to the Hatching cavern to do so, or have their own dark, secluded place? Last question, would there be any way possible for a young wher, a few months old perhaps, to break free of its chain *without* betweening?
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Old Nov 11 2005, 03:18 AM   #40
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strength and a loose link?

I don't think whers get on with dragons- think its df where the wehr was terrified of the dragons, Pridith says something about Nabol's wher being terrified in DQ too.

haven't a clue about clutching except for in the dark! cos I suppoe that being photophobic would make the open dragon/firelizard hatching grounds unbearable.
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