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Old Apr 14 2016, 06:31 PM   #41
Kennet
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Default Re: Clutch sizes

F'lar got the Bronze and became Wingleader. F'nor got the Brown and was automatically wing second. There was training as C'gan was responsible for training Weyrlings, IIRC.

I never said that Benden was a typical weyr. I was pointing out that we have little information on how all the weyrs were organized.

F'lar was raiding before Ramoth's clutch was laid, and he was probably raiding High Reaches herds because he had reason to dislike Fax and it was furthest away from the Weyr. There was little chance that any complaints would reach the weyr.

Last edited by Kennet; Jun 14 2016 at 07:03 PM. Reason: auto-correct strikes again
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Old Apr 15 2016, 12:48 AM   #42
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Default Re: Clutch sizes

I'm not arguing against F'lar's wing being entirely his clutch. We don't know for sure but it's entirely possible. My argument is that you can't use that to prove that organizing wings by clutch is at all typical, or that a bronzerider in a healthy Weyr gets his own wing the moment he leaves the weyrling program.

You'd want to fast track all bronzes for leadership positions since theoretically any one of them could wind up weyrleader at any time and you want them to have as much command experience as possible, but there are better ways to do that than throwing them and their entire clutch in the deep end and seeing if they swim.
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Old Apr 15 2016, 09:31 PM   #43
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Default Re: Clutch sizes

Judging by F'nor's conversation with Lessa just before Ramoth rose to mate, there was only one clutch between the ones that produced Mnementh and Ramoth --- and probably only a small one since Nemorth was too fat and lazy to fly high enough for a big clutch. I think it likely they would have divided the weyrlings among however many wings they had at the time. They'd want all the wings to be about the same size.

Come to think of it, they'd probably plan on having equal numbers of wings to deploy at each of the Weyrs including the empty ones, to allow for a group of riders to be thoroughly familiar with each territory and guide the other wings temporarily assigned to them for Threadfall. F'lon had some kind of a plan for the last turns of the Interval. R'gul didn't, other than not upsetting the Holders, because he didn't believe Thread would return. I think there were only about 6 wings when Thread returned.
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Old Apr 15 2016, 10:19 PM   #44
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Default Re: Clutch sizes

Sorry --- 7 wings, led by R'gul, S'lel, S'lan, D'nol, T'bor, F'lar, K'net.

At least they were the riders who turned up in Lessa's weyr for Ramoth's flight.
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Old Apr 15 2016, 10:54 PM   #45
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Default Re: Clutch sizes

Just checked --- there were 24 eggs in the clutch that included Mnementh and Canth (and F'lon had to starve Nemorth AND Jora to get the queen in shape to fly). Only 10 in Nemorth's final clutch, because Jora went downhill after F'lon was killed.
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Old Apr 16 2016, 04:59 PM   #46
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Default Re: Clutch sizes

The wings include all colors--check Moreta, DE/RSR. And while during an interval, with long, slow training and gaps between clutches, you might get away with more or less keeping each age group together, you have to remember in a Pass, you're making a REPLACEMENTS. Not for whole wings at once, that statistically just doesn't happen, to fill gaps left by long-term injuries, permanent groundings, and fatalities. You can't just keep flying a reduced wing until you have one guy left. Anne referred to the dragonriders as "fighter pilots" and while she was NOT being 100% literal, one aspect of that is if one guy in the squadron dies, you're sad, and you bring in a new guy. Being close-knit is second place to a full fighting force. Also, green leadership (green as in "newbie", not the dragon color) plus greed followers generally equals a disaster. Ignoring Benden in DF (as has been repeatedly pointed out, it's a terrible, completely atypical example of Weyr operations even in an interval) it's highly unlikely there's ever be such a total shortage of adult bronze and even brown riders (cases like F'nor, where the rider has an especially large or talented dragon--even in DF-Pern, F'nor is mostly a ranker because Canth is ENORMOUS and because he's F'lar's half-brother) who could serve as wingleaders and primary wingseconds that you'd need to immediately throw a completely-inexperienced graduated Weyrling bronze into a leadership role. Again with the military example, training is one thing, real combat (ie Thread-fighting) is entirely different. Even firestone ferry duty is not going to prepare them for the split-second decision making and coordinating with other dragons and riders and constantly skipping in and out of between and being the receiver instead of the delivery rider--far better to integrate new riders in with the experienced ones and to let them learn from the veterans.
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Old Apr 18 2016, 06:26 PM   #47
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Default Re: Clutch sizes

The clutch/wing and replacements concepts are not either/or. Weyrs are going to do both as the situation requires. At the start of a Pass, ALL the wings are novices and "see the elephant" at the same time. Casualties will probably hit near 30%, but most (90% of the casualties) will not be fatal. Wings will be re-organized quite freely to keep consistent numbers, and shuffled again (and again) as the injured return to the fight. One outcome of this is that wings will disappear as they are split up to reinforce other wings. In effect, you are robbing P'ter to pay P'ul.

Eventually, a new wing will have to be formed from the remnants of the cadre wings and the newly trained riders. This will be the 'green' wing which R'gul mentioned. In fact, any wing with less than half of the riders being experienced could be classed as 'green'.

Even if the entire wing was 'green', their first fight would be a hard one with higher casualties, but it would not be a "disaster" as Anareth put it. They are not fighting alone, and the Fall commander has lots of options.

He could take a reinforcing group to their bit of the front, take care of the problem Thread, and give some advice to the Wingleader before returning to oversee the entire Fall. This would be a normal action in the case of any wing, even an experienced one, having difficulties

He could pull the wing out of the line when he thought things were going too badly. He would give them a chance to regroup and recover from their shock of "seeing the elephant", and then commit them again.

I am not dictating any particular method. Each Weyrleader will act as sees best in his own situation.
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